The Official English Rugby Thread

[Torquemada 1420]

Three English clubs doing well, 2 doing OK, 3 doing poorly. Two of the three got to the QF, one of them got to the SF. Oh no what a bumming.

The upshot of all the yada is the best England can currently offer was hammered at the sharp end and bar another display of cheating by Brace, would have seen Exeter bow out before the 1/4s against a side who have won 3 out of 10 in the league. OTTOMH no representatives even made the 1/4s of the Mickey Mouse?

With that level of dressing up disaster, you should consider some PR for the Tories after the local elections.

Ah, it's the referee wot did it.

I guess it's easier than acknowledging the truth.

Not been ignoring this. Just been away for a few days.

Stop being silly. One bent ref got one English team to the 1/4s (16 slots) and that team was mullered by LaR.

Results in early rounds of a KO comp don't mean much. Half the 1/4 finalists in this year's FA Cup were none Prem (I think). Blades were the only one to make the semis and were murdered to highlight the gulf in class. Grimsby made it real far. The peculiarities of KO and, especially the "everyone" qualifies and gets a 2nd chance" nature of HEC now should mean plenty of chance for weaker sides to go deep but that is not what happened.

I came across this from Lawrence Nolan on PR (he's the one who has riting skilllz)

Thing is, the Premiership this season was, for a long time, highly entertaining. But it petered out horribly, to the extent that the only jeopardy going on the last day was the race to finish eighth in an eleven-team league and thus qualify for Europe. Woo.

How many teams will it actually be next year? London Irish were late with wages, a sure sign that something is amiss even though subsequent noises have been reassuring. Newcastle continue to shed top assets at an unsustainable rate. The Premiership semi-finals have an uncomfortable air of predictability around them and English teams have, despite a healthy presence in the quarter-finals, hardly set the world on fire.

The Premiership itself is set to be superseded by both its French counterpart and the URC, which leaves English rugby in a deeply uncomfortable position.

Pretty much parrots what I said
- Prem been great entertainment
- Prem currently not competitive against the BEST (because that's all that counts if you care about going deep in Europe) T14 and URC. TBH, I can see the SA sides getting stronger and if they aren't shafted by the travel too, pushing for the top.
- Prem financially looks extremely precarious. Remember all you guys argued for ring fencing on the basis that there isn't enough quality in the next tier to make a proper comp work. Something absolutely not true in France where Pro2 is ferocious.

[Torquemada 1420]

I think extrapolating a few losing knockout matches in European competition to a whole capability gap is stretching things, to put it as mildly as I can.

France have improved a number of things, one of which is a better transition into international rugby for club players. That doesn't happen by chance, and the club coaches deserve a lot of credit, as does Galthie and his team.

You'd be right IF that was a one off and IF that were the only indicator. See my previous post.

Again, the better transition has little to do with drivers from the national side down (bar Edwards' phenomenal defence mind which, I grant, is a major factor in marshalling the better resources): the resources have got better for reasons driven at club level I highlighted earlier. It's not chance but bugger all to do withe better co-operation between the FFR and LNR. Galthie is a bit part in this. His genius is not to do anything outrageously dumb unlike all his predecessors. And maybe one other thing, unlike the likes of Le Goret, Noves and Lievremont, he will not be held hostage by the players. Almost the other extreme: hence the exile of Macalou and Thomas.

[Torquemada 1420]

"English rugby in survival mode"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65552080

[SaintK]

Ashton's red card rescinded with a bit of help from Murley!

The soon-to-retire Chris Ashton has been handed a dramatic Premiership reprieve after escaping a ban following his sending-off in Leicester’s final regular season game on Saturday. The former England winger has had his red card rescinded and is free to play with immediate effect.

Ashton, 36, was sent off for a dangerous tackle on Harlequins’ Cadan Murley which Leicester believed was only worthy of a yellow card. An independent disciplinary panel came to the same conclusion after a five-hour hearing, deciding the head contact had been indirect and did not involve a high degree of danger. Ashton admitted to an act of foul play but Murley testified to the panel that the initial contact was to his right shoulder rather than to his head.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023 ... equins

[shaggy]

"English rugby in survival mode"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65552080

Torq, just fuck off out of the thread you tedious cunt.

[JM2K6]

Ashton's red card rescinded with a bit of help from Murley!

The soon-to-retire Chris Ashton has been handed a dramatic Premiership reprieve after escaping a ban following his sending-off in Leicester’s final regular season game on Saturday. The former England winger has had his red card rescinded and is free to play with immediate effect.

Ashton, 36, was sent off for a dangerous tackle on Harlequins’ Cadan Murley which Leicester believed was only worthy of a yellow card. An independent disciplinary panel came to the same conclusion after a five-hour hearing, deciding the head contact had been indirect and did not involve a high degree of danger. Ashton admitted to an act of foul play but Murley testified to the panel that the initial contact was to his right shoulder rather than to his head.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023 ... equins

A very silly decision. The split second clip of the arm by Ashton's own arm before the shoulder smashes Murley in the face and snaps his head back should really not be mitigation. But there's no use pretending the officials and assorted off field decision makers are serious about this stuff or have any joined up thinking going on.

[JM2K6]

The upshot of all the yada is the best England can currently offer was hammered at the sharp end and bar another display of cheating by Brace, would have seen Exeter bow out before the 1/4s against a side who have won 3 out of 10 in the league. OTTOMH no representatives even made the 1/4s of the Mickey Mouse?

With that level of dressing up disaster, you should consider some PR for the Tories after the local elections.

Ah, it's the referee wot did it.

I guess it's easier than acknowledging the truth.

Not been ignoring this. Just been away for a few days.

Stop being silly. One bent ref got one English team to the 1/4s (16 slots) and that team was mullered by LaR.

Results in early rounds of a KO comp don't mean much. Half the 1/4 finalists in this year's FA Cup were none Prem (I think). Blades were the only one to make the semis and were murdered to highlight the gulf in class. Grimsby made it real far. The peculiarities of KO and, especially the "everyone" qualifies and gets a 2nd chance" nature of HEC now should mean plenty of chance for weaker sides to go deep but that is not what happened.

1) Continuing to accuse refs of being bent makes you look a complete twat
2) Fucking lol at the FA Cup comparison - a domestic competition aimed at giving sides from all tiers a shot at progressing and playing bigger clubs that is deliberately set up in a way that promotes the chances of lower league teams with big teams not playing the early stages
3) Your own argument was that the Premiership was "bummed" by the other leagues. If you only care about the very end stages of the tournament then what the fuck are you even talking about? No-one is arguing that there aren't 3 or so sides in Europe ahead of the rest. But claiming the superiority of the URC over the Prem because of Leinster and some freshly imported Soup sides (the best of which got annihilated by a Prem side in the KO stages) while ignoring all the other results is hilarious. Claiming the superiority of the Top14 because of Toulouse/LaR is fun and nicely ignores the huge swathes of talented French sides in the competition who ended up being whipping boys. It's convenient for you to forget that, but Castres, Bordeaux, Clermont, Montpellier, Racing92, and Lyon were sent packing from the pool stage with four wins between them. Four! That's pathetic

[Torquemada 1420]

"English rugby in survival mode"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65552080

Torq, just fuck off out of the thread you tedious cunt.

You lot are a hoot. Professional players, managers, owners, administrators and commentators across the piece are making it very clear they fear for the future of the game in England from a financial perspective. I've provided you with enough of these opinions to make it clear that such views exist outside of my own. And your reaction is to cry like a girl and stick heads in sand?

If your denial of the problems is symptomatic of English rugby supporters in the wider context, then good luck turning this around.

BCM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... nd-for-it/

[inactionman]

"English rugby in survival mode"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65552080

Torq, just fuck off out of the thread you tedious cunt.

You lot are a hoot. Professional players, managers, owners, administrators and commentators across the piece are making it very clear they fear for the future of the game in England from a financial perspective. I've provided you with enough of these opinions to make it clear that such views exist outside of my own. And your reaction is to cry like a girl and stick heads in sand?

If your denial of the problems is symptomatic of English rugby supporters in the wider context, then good luck turning this around.

BCM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... nd-for-it/

You're losing me, and sadly I think deliberately - you're making a strange argument about bumming, outclassing, capability gap or however you phrase it, relating to performances on-field, and your 'evidence' is issues to do with finance?

We're all aware that Wasps went under and LI are financially precarious (Worcester was more two arseholes money-grabbing) and that the game overall isn't on a stable financial footing. Not a single, solitary soul has denied that.

I think I'll bow out of this debate now, and please have the grace to do likewise, seeing as it's the England thread.

[Margin__Walker]

"English rugby in survival mode"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65552080

Torq, just fuck off out of the thread you tedious cunt.

You lot are a hoot. Professional players, managers, owners, administrators and commentators across the piece are making it very clear they fear for the future of the game in England from a financial perspective. I've provided you with enough of these opinions to make it clear that such views exist outside of my own. And your reaction is to cry like a girl and stick heads in sand?

If your denial of the problems is symptomatic of English rugby supporters in the wider context, then good luck turning this around.

BCM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... nd-for-it/

Made you a thread mate

https://notplanetrugby.com/viewtopic.php?t=2511

[Torquemada 1420]

And to counter JMK's "it was down to COVID", I had to dig this one out from the FT. The FT FFS considered it worthy of a whole piece
https://on.ft.com/3BlVKmu

The collapse of the two clubs hints at something rotten in the financial state of English club rugby. Even before Covid wiped out ticket sales and hospitality revenues, rugby union’s top clubs were mired by fragile finances.

Club owners, senior executives, investors, the league and authorities see an opportunity for a “reset” that can put the sport’s finances back on track. “We’ve had 25 years of pro rugby now and the model is bust really,” says the owner of one club.

“An arms race started for players with money the game couldn’t afford,” says Tim Crow, a sports marketer who has negotiated sponsorships with the Six Nations, British & Irish Lions and the Premiership. “It hasn’t changed.”

As the Myners review would later report, the game became prone to financial ups and downs. Periods of relative stability typically led to excess, mostly as clubs pushed salary budgets to the limits in pursuit of domestic and European titles.

The crisis now engulfing English rugby was worsened by the pandemic, say experts, but not caused by it. “Rugby union has been storing these problems up for some time, the warning signs were there,” says Dan Plumley, sports finance expert at Sheffield Hallam University. “Covid has accelerated the problems that were already there.”

[SaintK]

Torq, just fuck off out of the thread you tedious cunt.

You lot are a hoot. Professional players, managers, owners, administrators and commentators across the piece are making it very clear they fear for the future of the game in England from a financial perspective. I've provided you with enough of these opinions to make it clear that such views exist outside of my own. And your reaction is to cry like a girl and stick heads in sand?

If your denial of the problems is symptomatic of English rugby supporters in the wider context, then good luck turning this around.

BCM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... nd-for-it/

Made you a thread mate

https://notplanetrugby.com/viewtopic.php?t=2511

He can gloat to his heart's content...............on his own!!

[SaintK]

Ashton's red card rescinded with a bit of help from Murley!

The soon-to-retire Chris Ashton has been handed a dramatic Premiership reprieve after escaping a ban following his sending-off in Leicester’s final regular season game on Saturday. The former England winger has had his red card rescinded and is free to play with immediate effect.

Ashton, 36, was sent off for a dangerous tackle on Harlequins’ Cadan Murley which Leicester believed was only worthy of a yellow card. An independent disciplinary panel came to the same conclusion after a five-hour hearing, deciding the head contact had been indirect and did not involve a high degree of danger. Ashton admitted to an act of foul play but Murley testified to the panel that the initial contact was to his right shoulder rather than to his head.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023 ... equins

A very silly decision. The split second clip of the arm by Ashton's own arm before the shoulder smashes Murley in the face and snaps his head back should really not be mitigation. But there's no use pretending the officials and assorted off field decision makers are serious about this stuff or have any joined up thinking going on.

I only saw it on highlights so no replays etc so no idea
Does mention that the panel had some different camera angles that the match officials didn't see which may have made a difference?

[Margin__Walker]

Seems to be one of those decisions that's been made for the romance of it. Which is all fine until the next bloke doesn't get off, because it doesn't make a nice story.

[JM2K6]

Ashton's red card rescinded with a bit of help from Murley!

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023 ... equins

A very silly decision. The split second clip of the arm by Ashton's own arm before the shoulder smashes Murley in the face and snaps his head back should really not be mitigation. But there's no use pretending the officials and assorted off field decision makers are serious about this stuff or have any joined up thinking going on.

I only saw it on highlights so no replays etc so no idea
Does mention that the panel had some different camera angles that the match officials didn't see which may have made a difference?

I expect that the other angles showed the arm contact more clearly. The big thing here is Murley basically bailing out his old teammate. Very generous of him.

[SaintK]

A very silly decision. The split second clip of the arm by Ashton's own arm before the shoulder smashes Murley in the face and snaps his head back should really not be mitigation. But there's no use pretending the officials and assorted off field decision makers are serious about this stuff or have any joined up thinking going on.

I only saw it on highlights so no replays etc so no idea
Does mention that the panel had some different camera angles that the match officials didn't see which may have made a difference?

I expect that the other angles showed the arm contact more clearly. The big thing here is Murley basically bailing out his old teammate. Very generous of him.

Good point!

[Kawazaki]

My reaction to just finding out who the ref is for the Saracens semifinal...

[SaintK]

My reaction to just finding out who the ref is for the Saracens semifinal...

Guessing it's Karl Dickson then?
Won't make any difference to the result
Sarries +17
Sale to beat Tigers +9 on Sunday

[Kawazaki]

BBC rugby podcast have done a coaches special featuring the four DoRs of the playoff clubs all in the same room. Obviously two of them are McCall protégés. It's quite an interesting 35 minutes listening - McCall is clearly held in enormously high regard by the others, almost reverential but he remains very humble throughout.

He really is the Saracens secret weapon.

[LenCohen]

BBC rugby podcast have done a coaches special featuring the four DoRs of the playoff clubs all in the same room. Obviously two of them are McCall protégés. It's quite an interesting 35 minutes listening - McCall is clearly held in enormously high regard by the others, almost reverential but he remains very humble throughout.

He really is the Saracens secret weapon.

There will come a day when sanderson will answer a question without regurgitating some half-assed self improvement aphorism. But it's hard to imagine that day.

McCall is really good value. Always like hearing Mark Evans on these state of the game things as well.

[Paddington Bear]

My reaction to just finding out who the ref is for the Saracens semifinal...

Flying back from a West of Scotland holiday during which I have got horrendously sunburnt for the purpose of playing a cricket match that has already been rained off, bought a ticket for tomorrow for a king's ransom and find this out. If there is a god he is taking the piss out of me right now.

[Kawazaki]

My reaction to just finding out who the ref is for the Saracens semifinal...

Flying back from a West of Scotland holiday during which I have got horrendously sunburnt for the purpose of playing a cricket match that has already been rained off, bought a ticket for tomorrow for a king's ransom and find this out. If there is a god he is taking the piss out of me right now.

Only positive is that Billy isn't playing so that should be at least 10 penalties he won't give against Saracens just there.

[SaintK]

My reaction to just finding out who the ref is for the Saracens semifinal...

Flying back from a West of Scotland holiday during which I have got horrendously sunburnt for the purpose of playing a cricket match that has already been rained off, bought a ticket for tomorrow for a king's ransom and find this out. If there is a god he is taking the piss out of me right now.

Only positive is that Billy isn't playing so that should be at least 10 penalties he won't give against Saracens just there.

He’ll give those against Saints in the scrum instead

[Margin__Walker]

LI soap opera continues. Assuming this ever materialises (a big assumption at this point), and they just aren't investors in a more serious fund, the RFU's fit and proper test would need to work fairly hard with Lewis and Iverson.

Ray Lewis, a two-times Super Bowl winner with Baltimore Ravens, and three former basketball stars from the NBA are involved in the consortium that has been in talks to buy London Irish.

The future of the club remains uncertain after the RFU imposed a deadline of May 30 for the deal to be completed. The consortium has repeatedly failed to provide the RFU with proof of funds and other information critical to any takeover of the Gallagher Premiership club being approved.

The Times has learned that Julius Erving, Allen Iverson and Dikembe Mutombo, three former basketball stars, are involved in the consortium along with Lewis, who spent 17 years in the NFL.

[SaintK]

LI soap opera continues. Assuming this ever materialises (a big assumption at this point), and they just aren't investors in a more serious fund, the RFU's fit and proper test would need to work fairly hard with Lewis and Iverson.

Hasn't Iverson spaffed 10's of £millions on gambling and lifestyle since he retired?
Can't see this ending well for Irish.

[Oxbow]

Less than a minute in, first cracking decision from Dickson.

[sockwithaticket]

Less than a minute in, first cracking decision from Dickson.

Nothing like celebrating your appointment to the world cup with a howler that typifies why you shouldn't be there.

Should've been a yellow.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

LI soap opera continues. Assuming this ever materialises (a big assumption at this point), and they just aren't investors in a more serious fund, the RFU's fit and proper test would need to work fairly hard with Lewis and Iverson.

Hasn't Iverson spaffed 10's of £millions on gambling and lifestyle since he retired?
Can't see this ending well for Irish.

Article in the Times said no evidence of funds has been provided yet. That's quite a red flag.

Hope it goes through. Irish have been playing really well this year.

[Kawazaki]

The Farrell-haters all go quiet sometimes. It's wonderful. I can imagine their inner seethe.

[Oxbow]

Fuck's sake, I didn't expect us to win but if would have been nice if shit Saints hadn't have turned up.

[Paddington Bear]

Men against boys so far, Saints should have taken 3 a few times to stay in touch

[Kawazaki]

Saracens butchered a couple of good chances as well.

Farrell is just a completely different player in a Saracens shirt. Plays so flat to the gainline in the black shirt.

[sockwithaticket]

I'd relegated this to being background while I sorted and folded laundry. Things have gotten interesting now.

[Oxbow]

That is an absolute bollocks penalty, straight after Farrell being two foot in touch.

[Oxbow]

Congratulations Sarries, much the better side and fully deserved to win, but fuck me Dickson is an awful, awful ref, and he seemed to infect his touch judges today.

[Paddington Bear]

Ah Dickson wasn’t so bad today. Was a brief window where Saints looked to be coming back in, but left themselves far too much to do. Again, take the 3. Could have been 24-16 without Northampton having had to do too much

[Oxbow]

Ah Dickson wasn’t so bad today. Was a brief window where Saints looked to be coming back in, but left themselves far too much to do. Again, take the 3. Could have been 24-16 without Northampton having had to do too much

I think you'd be in the minority there, and not just Saints fans.

[Paddington Bear]

Looking forward to this one, Sale to win unless they decide to play with 14

[Paddington Bear]

Yet another jackal injury in amongst a very feisty game, really could go either way

[sockwithaticket]

Not sure I agree with Ugo that a player leading with their face constitutes fantastic defence.