Okay, let me rephrase: to people who watch modern football regularly, a dive is one with no contact. It's not written in stone anywhere and you can do the old man shouts at clouds act as much as you like, not much I can do about it, but there it is.
I know I’ll get slaughtered for this, but could it also not just be that England simply are not good enough? Let’s face it, the EPL is dominated by foreign players.Hugo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:25 pm Gareth Southgate doesn't seem brave enough to make tough decisons. I think Souness was spot on when he said that there was not enough football in England's midfield.
He seems like a people pleaser and company man who is in the job because he won't ruffle feathers. He doesn't strike me as someone who is very good at motivating his players so if his team selections are not very good I don't see what he brings to the role. If England don't advance deep into this tournament (semis or further) I think he has to go because otherwise these players are wasted on him.
England are completely overrated, like in the world cup, the moment they meet a half decent team they will fold like a pack of cards. As usual they get a win and the gutter press label them world beaters, its quite hilarious really.I know I’ll get slaughtered for this, but could it also not just be that England simply are not good enough? Let’s face it, the EPL is dominated by foreign players.
Blah blah blah. Complete nonsense.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:06 pmOkay, let me rephrase: to people who watch modern football regularly, a dive is one with no contact. It's not written in stone anywhere and you can do the old man shouts at clouds act as much as you like, not much I can do about it, but there it is.
If it bothers you that much - even when you know that drawing contact and seeking a free kick is a big part of the game - then the only option is to not watch the sport, because it's how it is now.
Tattie wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:47 pmI know I’ll get slaughtered for this, but could it also not just be that England simply are not good enough? Let’s face it, the EPL is dominated by foreign players.Hugo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:25 pm Gareth Southgate doesn't seem brave enough to make tough decisons. I think Souness was spot on when he said that there was not enough football in England's midfield.
He seems like a people pleaser and company man who is in the job because he won't ruffle feathers. He doesn't strike me as someone who is very good at motivating his players so if his team selections are not very good I don't see what he brings to the role. If England don't advance deep into this tournament (semis or further) I think he has to go because otherwise these players are wasted on him.
The media hype pre-tournament... actually pre EVERY tournament is ridiculous. England won the World Cup in 66 and had a very good team that nearly went all the way in ‘90 but aside from that when have they ever looked that good? Yes they got to the WC semi 3 years ago but were nothing special.
I’m looking through tartan specs a little on this one but on Friday night there was not one of their much feted stars who looked better than their Scottish opponent, in fact, in most cases they looked worse. Our right back plays for Motherwell and probably earns in a whole season what every single England player earns in half a week.
No doubt England will now pump the Czechs and storm their way to the final, playing Brazil 1970 style football, where Harry Kane scores a double hat-trick as England beat Italy 9-0.
.....and that is Southgate's fault. His team selections and substitutions are poor, he picks on reputation and won't make brave substitutions to try and change the game.Tattie wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:47 pmI’m looking through tartan specs a little on this one but on Friday night there was not one of their much feted stars who looked better than their Scottish opponent, in fact, in most cases they looked worse. Our right back plays for Motherwell and probably earns in a whole season what every single England player earns in half a week.Hugo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:25 pm Gareth Southgate doesn't seem brave enough to make tough decisons. I think Souness was spot on when he said that there was not enough football in England's midfield.
He seems like a people pleaser and company man who is in the job because he won't ruffle feathers. He doesn't strike me as someone who is very good at motivating his players so if his team selections are not very good I don't see what he brings to the role. If England don't advance deep into this tournament (semis or further) I think he has to go because otherwise these players are wasted on him.
No, I really didn't. Listen to any football podcast. Watch any football show. A dive is when players hit the deck when there's been no contact, i.e. completely inventing a foul. If there is contact but they make a meal of it, people say that instead - or just say "he's gone down far too easily".Slick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:29 pmBlah blah blah. Complete nonsense.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:06 pmOkay, let me rephrase: to people who watch modern football regularly, a dive is one with no contact. It's not written in stone anywhere and you can do the old man shouts at clouds act as much as you like, not much I can do about it, but there it is.
If it bothers you that much - even when you know that drawing contact and seeking a free kick is a big part of the game - then the only option is to not watch the sport, because it's how it is now.
You made it up.
This is complete horseshit, ASMO. The "gutter press" has been pretty critical of Southgate and the team recently, and the reaction to the Croatia win was pretty measured. And as for the world cup, we got to the semi-final and lost a very tight game that we should've won. We played several 'half decent' teams and beat them, and Croatia were a pretty good side themselves who we outplayed for the majority of the game. If you've managed to get to the semi-final and just lose, then you deserve to be rated!ASMO wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:16 pmEngland are completely overrated, like in the world cup, the moment they meet a half decent team they will fold like a pack of cards. As usual they get a win and the gutter press label them world beaters, its quite hilarious really.I know I’ll get slaughtered for this, but could it also not just be that England simply are not good enough? Let’s face it, the EPL is dominated by foreign players.
Haven't seen anything about that or even Scotland players who have been around him. Seems a bit odd.
I was waiting for it - it had to come eventually...JMK the omniscient.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:24 amNo, I really didn't. Listen to any football podcast. Watch any football show. A dive is when players hit the deck when there's been no contact, i.e. completely inventing a foul. If there is contact but they make a meal of it, people say that instead - or just say "he's gone down far too easily".Slick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:29 pmBlah blah blah. Complete nonsense.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:06 pm
Okay, let me rephrase: to people who watch modern football regularly, a dive is one with no contact. It's not written in stone anywhere and you can do the old man shouts at clouds act as much as you like, not much I can do about it, but there it is.
If it bothers you that much - even when you know that drawing contact and seeking a free kick is a big part of the game - then the only option is to not watch the sport, because it's how it is now.
You made it up.
No idea why you're so hung up on this, but hey. Also no idea why I'm bothering to argue with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
You're right Openside, it is my MO to disagree when I'm told something I said is something I "just made up" by people with barely a passing interest in the topic. How fucking weird.
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:42 pmYou're right Openside, it is my MO to disagree when I'm told something I said is something I "just made up" by people with barely a passing interest in the topic. How fucking weird.
Not as weird as your relentless need to snipe at me when it's pretty clear nothing good comes of it except from me getting to use some new swear words and you looking thick as fuck, but I cannot control the universe, more's the pity.
OS's MO!!!People with barely a passing interest and absolutely no credible sources on line at all. But keep going.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:42 pmYou're right Openside, it is my MO to disagree when I'm told something I said is something I "just made up" by people with barely a passing interest in the topic. How fucking weird.
Not as weird as your relentless need to snipe at me when it's pretty clear nothing good comes of it except from me getting to use some new swear words and you looking thick as fuck, but I cannot control the universe, more's the pity.
I'd rather not - we disagreed and seemed to have moved on. What would be the point? We've made our positions clear and we're not going to agree.Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:42 pmPeople with barely a passing interest and absolutely no credible sources on line at all. But keep going.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:42 pmYou're right Openside, it is my MO to disagree when I'm told something I said is something I "just made up" by people with barely a passing interest in the topic. How fucking weird.
Not as weird as your relentless need to snipe at me when it's pretty clear nothing good comes of it except from me getting to use some new swear words and you looking thick as fuck, but I cannot control the universe, more's the pity.
You need to get laid JM then you wouldn't come across as a know it all and insufferably smug.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:42 pmYou're right Openside, it is my MO to disagree when I'm told something I said is something I "just made up" by people with barely a passing interest in the topic. How fucking weird.
Not as weird as your relentless need to snipe at me when it's pretty clear nothing good comes of it except from me getting to use some new swear words and you looking thick as fuck, but I cannot control the universe, more's the pity.
ClassyJM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:03 pmI'd rather not - we disagreed and seemed to have moved on. What would be the point? We've made our positions clear and we're not going to agree.Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:42 pmPeople with barely a passing interest and absolutely no credible sources on line at all. But keep going.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:42 pm
You're right Openside, it is my MO to disagree when I'm told something I said is something I "just made up" by people with barely a passing interest in the topic. How fucking weird.
Not as weird as your relentless need to snipe at me when it's pretty clear nothing good comes of it except from me getting to use some new swear words and you looking thick as fuck, but I cannot control the universe, more's the pity.
OS sticking his oar in like he always does doesn't help anything, he just exists on here to whinge about other posters and try and needle me. It's like being trolled by someone with late stage Alzheimer's, but even I get bored eventually.
+1 re England not being that bad and the fans' right to get excited. And JMK's right that most press commentary on them has been very measured, and largely rather critical. My own view is that, unfortunately, while many of our players are talented, they flatter to deceive without an authoritative figure driving them on either on the field, off it or both. Wish they'd run at or pass through the oppo defence sometimes rather than pass neatly up and down the sides.inactionman wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:39 pmTattie wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:47 pmI know I’ll get slaughtered for this, but could it also not just be that England simply are not good enough? Let’s face it, the EPL is dominated by foreign players.Hugo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:25 pm Gareth Southgate doesn't seem brave enough to make tough decisons. I think Souness was spot on when he said that there was not enough football in England's midfield.
He seems like a people pleaser and company man who is in the job because he won't ruffle feathers. He doesn't strike me as someone who is very good at motivating his players so if his team selections are not very good I don't see what he brings to the role. If England don't advance deep into this tournament (semis or further) I think he has to go because otherwise these players are wasted on him.
The media hype pre-tournament... actually pre EVERY tournament is ridiculous. England won the World Cup in 66 and had a very good team that nearly went all the way in ‘90 but aside from that when have they ever looked that good? Yes they got to the WC semi 3 years ago but were nothing special.
I’m looking through tartan specs a little on this one but on Friday night there was not one of their much feted stars who looked better than their Scottish opponent, in fact, in most cases they looked worse. Our right back plays for Motherwell and probably earns in a whole season what every single England player earns in half a week.
No doubt England will now pump the Czechs and storm their way to the final, playing Brazil 1970 style football, where Harry Kane scores a double hat-trick as England beat Italy 9-0.
I'd provide some balance by saying it's not like the other teams are night and day (France are perhaps the strongest in my opinion, but not leagues ahead) which is why I think England have had at least a puncher's chance in many of the tournaments over the years. Going out on penalties on a regular basis is pretty galling, but does indicate the team isn't a million miles away form others. (We'll ignore the Iceland debacle, and I'd also point out that the Germany 4-1 result was actually 2-2 at halftime if the linesman had seen it properly, and the final 2 goals were on the break as England chased - not that we deserved much from that game).
Also worth noting England went something silly like 40-odd games unbeaten in qualifying over a decade, which I think would give most fans some form of optimism and would suggest, well, they're not bad at football.
As a general rule I'd suggest giving LTVG a swerve, I'd say ultimately someone plays for Motherwell for a reason and it's not like Champion's League teams won't sign decent Scottish fullbacks.
Finally, speaking as an England fan, I'll reserve the right to get hyped up for a tournament, thanks all the same. Insane optimism should be any fan's default position. I've never really got why the England fans seem to get it in the neck for this, Wales had a run a few years back and they were like 5 year olds after half a pound of sherbet but I don't recall any England fan begrudging them it. We knew they'd next to no chance of winning but it's a knockout tournament and who knows what could happen - look at Greece. Actually, don't, they were an excruciating team to watch, but I'd not put them down as favourites in any way, shape or form.
I can guarantee I'm getting more than you, old man. And if you think you look good every time you try this shtick with me, you're breathtakingly clueless.Openside wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:17 pmYou need to get laid JM then you wouldn't come across as a know it all and insufferably smug.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:42 pmYou're right Openside, it is my MO to disagree when I'm told something I said is something I "just made up" by people with barely a passing interest in the topic. How fucking weird.
Not as weird as your relentless need to snipe at me when it's pretty clear nothing good comes of it except from me getting to use some new swear words and you looking thick as fuck, but I cannot control the universe, more's the pity.
I'm glad we won our group, really wouldnt want to be playing the Danes right nowJM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:21 pm Denmark / Wales should be a cracker - the Danes seem to have really fed off the emotion of that traumatic experience.
Not sure Austria have enough to beat Italy, who look annoyingly fucking good. The Dutch... I live in hope
(Oh, and England have qualified as a result)
Yes of course you are!! No doubt you know all about that as wellJM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:45 pmI can guarantee I'm getting more than you, old man. And if you think you look good every time you try this shtick with me, you're breathtakingly clueless.Openside wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:17 pmYou need to get laid JM then you wouldn't come across as a know it all and insufferably smug.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:42 pm
You're right Openside, it is my MO to disagree when I'm told something I said is something I "just made up" by people with barely a passing interest in the topic. How fucking weird.
Not as weird as your relentless need to snipe at me when it's pretty clear nothing good comes of it except from me getting to use some new swear words and you looking thick as fuck, but I cannot control the universe, more's the pity.
Which wouldn't really be a surprise to anyone who's read your desperately dimwitted Brexit posts, but hope springs eternal.
I'll have to join the chorus of people that are saying you are wrong. Players are regularly called for diving when they go down theatrically under minimal contact or they flip out a trailing leg to make exaggerated contact with an opposing players legs. It's nonsense to say there must be no contact for it to be a dive.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:24 amNo, I really didn't. Listen to any football podcast. Watch any football show. A dive is when players hit the deck when there's been no contact, i.e. completely inventing a foul. If there is contact but they make a meal of it, people say that instead - or just say "he's gone down far too easily".Slick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:29 pmBlah blah blah. Complete nonsense.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:06 pm
Okay, let me rephrase: to people who watch modern football regularly, a dive is one with no contact. It's not written in stone anywhere and you can do the old man shouts at clouds act as much as you like, not much I can do about it, but there it is.
If it bothers you that much - even when you know that drawing contact and seeking a free kick is a big part of the game - then the only option is to not watch the sport, because it's how it is now.
You made it up.
No idea why you're so hung up on this, but hey. Also no idea why I'm bothering to argue with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
Saint wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:01 pm
It's actually not so funny. PHE and the FA deemed that the players post match interaction with Gilmour was enough to warrant separation from the rest of the squad. In the meantime, the Scottish FA claim that Gilmour hadn't been close to any other player in the Scottish squad at all.
Quite how they're managing to deliver that with a straight face is beyond me - so he didn't come into close contact with anyone in the changing rooms, on the team coach, at the team hotel? Is he a pariah? Do they really not like him?
No one cares about your desperate attempts to needle me - talk about football or fuck off, because despite our mutual antipathy, I'm not the one jumping into random threads to loudly declare how much I don't like you or your posts.Openside wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:57 pmYes of course you are!! No doubt you know all about that as wellJM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:45 pmI can guarantee I'm getting more than you, old man. And if you think you look good every time you try this shtick with me, you're breathtakingly clueless.
Which wouldn't really be a surprise to anyone who's read your desperately dimwitted Brexit posts, but hope springs eternal.
Oh and congrats on not being insufferably smug
If going down theatrically under minimal contact is a dive, then everyone is a diver and 90% of free kicks come from a dive, making the term meaningless. But we don't see commentators, pundits, managers, or (many) fans complain about that level of diving - because they've all come to terms with "contact = foul".Blackmac wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:31 amI'll have to join the chorus of people that are saying you are wrong. Players are regularly called for diving when they go down theatrically under minimal contact or they flip out a trailing leg to make exaggerated contact with an opposing players legs. It's nonsense to say there must be no contact for it to be a dive.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:24 amNo, I really didn't. Listen to any football podcast. Watch any football show. A dive is when players hit the deck when there's been no contact, i.e. completely inventing a foul. If there is contact but they make a meal of it, people say that instead - or just say "he's gone down far too easily".
No idea why you're so hung up on this, but hey. Also no idea why I'm bothering to argue with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
I think one of the worst offenders is our own John McGinn who goes down under the slightest provocation.
Then you have things like Kane winning a penalty against Arsenal by falling over because a defender touched his back - contact, yes, but not touching his legs or feet or doing anything untoward. So everyone fairly called it a dive.Watkins, who had earlier scored the game's opener, fell under pressure from David Tutonda in the Barnet box, but TV replays suggested there was no contact.
Ooh get her - I am spot on here, all I have pointed out is your supreme arrogance. It IS your MO you won’t brook any disagreement and when perfectly reasonable points are made you end up declaring your expertise on the subject and telling people that they don’t know what they are talking about. I could see that scenario developing a mile off which is why I felt compelled to comment.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:11 amNo one cares about your desperate attempts to needle me - talk about football or fuck off, because despite our mutual antipathy, I'm not the one jumping into random threads to loudly declare how much I don't like you or your posts.Openside wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:57 pmYes of course you are!! No doubt you know all about that as wellJM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:45 pm
I can guarantee I'm getting more than you, old man. And if you think you look good every time you try this shtick with me, you're breathtakingly clueless.
Which wouldn't really be a surprise to anyone who's read your desperately dimwitted Brexit posts, but hope springs eternal.
Oh and congrats on not being insufferably smug
Actually a dive by definition is a fall to the ground when that fall is ‘voluntary’ rather than caused by the contact. If you get tapped on the ankle and fall over to draw the foul by definition that is a dive. Unfortunately sport having become what it has rewards players for doing so rather than vilifies them as cheats.Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:35 am As someone who only watches soccer during the World Cup and European Championship, or the Africa Cup of Nations if Bafana Bafana are playing, I agree with JMK. A dive, which is an actual offence, is only if contact is not made but the player pretends it has.
A player can exaggerate contact, but they can't be punished. Doesn't mean the rules are best like this, but it's the reality of how soccer is played and officiated.
The main thing I dislike is how the referees automatically give a foul at corners for any contact, or when a player very gently touches another player's back and they fall over.
Whose definition is that?Openside wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:04 amActually a dive by definition is a fall to the ground when that fall is ‘voluntary’ rather than caused by the contact. If you get tapped on the ankle and fall over to draw the foul by definition that is a dive. Unfortunately sport having become what it has rewards players for doing so rather than vilifies them as cheats.Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:35 am As someone who only watches soccer during the World Cup and European Championship, or the Africa Cup of Nations if Bafana Bafana are playing, I agree with JMK. A dive, which is an actual offence, is only if contact is not made but the player pretends it has.
A player can exaggerate contact, but they can't be punished. Doesn't mean the rules are best like this, but it's the reality of how soccer is played and officiated.
The main thing I dislike is how the referees automatically give a foul at corners for any contact, or when a player very gently touches another player's back and they fall over.
NoOpenside wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:56 amOoh get her - I am spot on here, all I have pointed out is your supreme arrogance. It IS your MO you won’t brook any disagreement and when perfectly reasonable points are made you end up declaring your expertise on the subject and telling people that they don’t know what they are talking about. I could see that scenario developing a mile off which is why I felt compelled to comment.
As far as needling you it is you that started the insults way back, your overarching sense of superiority is a balloon that needs pricking maybe if you could laugh at yourself a bit you wouldn’t be so prickly.
