Starmergeddon: They Came And Ate Us

[epwc]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-68543677.amp

Significant CO2 reductions

[epwc]

If the infrastructure was there then all of this pollution could be eliminated by plugging into mains electricity when in port

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_ ... %20of%20SO

[epwc]

There are multiple projects at different scales worldwide working on electric aviation, this is one but my moneys on the Chinese to bring the first electric airliner to market

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Business/pas ... =106223258

[Dogbert]

It does change our oil and gas usage, it will accelerate the move away from oil and gas. How much of our oil supply is "British" even the new Rosebank field that was approved last year is Norwegian, and there is absolutely no undertaking for the UK to be the preferential customer or even to have preferential rates.

I don't see how that is true, we still need to heat homes - still 78% of Homes in UK use gas central heating - where do you think that gas will come from ? How quickly do you think that we can move away from Gas Central heating - and who pays for that move - 46% of people in the UK have less than £1000 in savings 25% have less than £200.

People still need transportation , and the transportation of goods - where does the fuel come for the Cars / Vans / HGVs , Aircraft and ships - yes we have 1,145,000 fully electric vehicles ( and yes one of them is mine ) and the charging infrastructure just about supports that level of vehicles - but that only accounts for 3% of cars on the UK roads - if you want to increase that number substantially - you also will need to increase the charging infrastructure accordingly- again where's the plan for such an increase and who is paying for it.

As for Aviation & Marine fuels - what are your alternatives

How much gas is used for electricity generation? - About 31%
It doesn't have to come out of homes.Absolutely The more electricity generated by renewables the better

In addition, better insulation reduces the need for gas (as well as greater increases in heat pumps)The UK's housing stock is the leakiest in Europe: losing an average of 3°C of heat over 5 hour - the work required to fix this issue is huge & expensive . We can move away from gas electricity generation, and reduce requirements for gas heating, fairly quicklyNot unless you fix the housing stock issue first - this is not a quick fix , without heat pumps. With the current heat pump grants, you can get one for quite cheap if you qualify.Most people do not qualify for grants , and those that do , still can't afford it - if 25% of people have less than £200 savings , how many of them can afford the insulation / heat pumps

Yes we need fuel, but again, not giving drilling licences today, doesn't cut todays supply.Maybe not todays supply , but the issue is that there are no quick fixes here, even if you instantly resolved the home heating issue , you are still left with a demand for fossil fuels for transportation

As for the plans for improving infrastructure, well if you want to do that, you want to get people with expertise in planning law and local government law in place, and would you believe it, Labour have done that.Which is great , but that's only a part of the solution, who is paying for the improved infrastructure, who is actually doing the spade work


This hasn't just been done on a whim. To suggest that is to completely ignore all the other steps taken by this government so far. You might not agree with the policy, you might not believe in climate change, but this clearly hasn't been done without a plan.I have never suggested that this was done on a whim, and to say I have is disingenuous, I fully believe that climate change is real , personally I have installed a Heat pump / Solar panels / Battery storage , I use public transport ( Hydrogen Buses )when I can , use an electric car when I can't, I try to restrict my international travel,I'm lucky that I can afford to do this - the vast majority of people can't. As with all plans the devil is in the detail - and as yet , I have seen precious little detail

[Raggs]

I don't see how that is true, we still need to heat homes - still 78% of Homes in UK use gas central heating - where do you think that gas will come from ? How quickly do you think that we can move away from Gas Central heating - and who pays for that move - 46% of people in the UK have less than £1000 in savings 25% have less than £200.

People still need transportation , and the transportation of goods - where does the fuel come for the Cars / Vans / HGVs , Aircraft and ships - yes we have 1,145,000 fully electric vehicles ( and yes one of them is mine ) and the charging infrastructure just about supports that level of vehicles - but that only accounts for 3% of cars on the UK roads - if you want to increase that number substantially - you also will need to increase the charging infrastructure accordingly- again where's the plan for such an increase and who is paying for it.

As for Aviation & Marine fuels - what are your alternatives

How much gas is used for electricity generation? - About 31%
It doesn't have to come out of homes.Absolutely The more electricity generated by renewables the better

In addition, better insulation reduces the need for gas (as well as greater increases in heat pumps)The UK's housing stock is the leakiest in Europe: losing an average of 3°C of heat over 5 hour - the work required to fix this issue is huge & expensive . We can move away from gas electricity generation, and reduce requirements for gas heating, fairly quicklyNot unless you fix the housing stock issue first - this is not a quick fix , without heat pumps. With the current heat pump grants, you can get one for quite cheap if you qualify.Most people do not qualify for grants , and those that do , still can't afford it - if 25% of people have less than £200 savings , how many of them can afford the insulation / heat pumps

Yes we need fuel, but again, not giving drilling licences today, doesn't cut todays supply.Maybe not todays supply , but the issue is that there are no quick fixes here, even if you instantly resolved the home heating issue , you are still left with a demand for fossil fuels for transportation

As for the plans for improving infrastructure, well if you want to do that, you want to get people with expertise in planning law and local government law in place, and would you believe it, Labour have done that.Which is great , but that's only a part of the solution, who is paying for the improved infrastructure, who is actually doing the spade work


This hasn't just been done on a whim. To suggest that is to completely ignore all the other steps taken by this government so far. You might not agree with the policy, you might not believe in climate change, but this clearly hasn't been done without a plan.I have never suggested that this was done on a whim, and to say I have is disingenuous, I fully believe that climate change is real , personally I have installed a Heat pump / Solar panels / Battery storage , I use public transport ( Hydrogen Buses )when I can , use an electric car when I can't, I try to restrict my international travel,I'm lucky that I can afford to do this - the vast majority of people can't. As with all plans the devil is in the detail - and as yet , I have seen precious little detail

Can I ask where you got the information for how much gas is used for electricity? I tried looking but couldn't find consistent information.

I agree, none of this is a quick fix. All of it will require funding. All of it is needed regardless, and it's needed as soon as possible. Stopping new licenses is not a quick stop, current oil and gas production will continue. Drilling more oil and gas is releasing more CO2 into the atmosphere, that needs to stop, and to stop quickly. The UK cannot do it alone, sure, but it's no good if every country sits on their hands saying "Well I'm not going to do it if you don't."

Lets get ourselves into a position where other countries can point at us and say "Well they did it, and it's working well for them!". Lets be pioneers and world leaders again, since if no one does it, we're all fucked anyway.

[Dogbert]

How much gas is used for electricity generation? - About 31%
It doesn't have to come out of homes.Absolutely The more electricity generated by renewables the better

In addition, better insulation reduces the need for gas (as well as greater increases in heat pumps)The UK's housing stock is the leakiest in Europe: losing an average of 3°C of heat over 5 hour - the work required to fix this issue is huge & expensive . We can move away from gas electricity generation, and reduce requirements for gas heating, fairly quicklyNot unless you fix the housing stock issue first - this is not a quick fix , without heat pumps. With the current heat pump grants, you can get one for quite cheap if you qualify.Most people do not qualify for grants , and those that do , still can't afford it - if 25% of people have less than £200 savings , how many of them can afford the insulation / heat pumps

Yes we need fuel, but again, not giving drilling licences today, doesn't cut todays supply.Maybe not todays supply , but the issue is that there are no quick fixes here, even if you instantly resolved the home heating issue , you are still left with a demand for fossil fuels for transportation

As for the plans for improving infrastructure, well if you want to do that, you want to get people with expertise in planning law and local government law in place, and would you believe it, Labour have done that.Which is great , but that's only a part of the solution, who is paying for the improved infrastructure, who is actually doing the spade work


This hasn't just been done on a whim. To suggest that is to completely ignore all the other steps taken by this government so far. You might not agree with the policy, you might not believe in climate change, but this clearly hasn't been done without a plan.I have never suggested that this was done on a whim, and to say I have is disingenuous, I fully believe that climate change is real , personally I have installed a Heat pump / Solar panels / Battery storage , I use public transport ( Hydrogen Buses )when I can , use an electric car when I can't, I try to restrict my international travel,I'm lucky that I can afford to do this - the vast majority of people can't. As with all plans the devil is in the detail - and as yet , I have seen precious little detail

Can I ask where you got the information for how much gas is used for electricity? I tried looking but couldn't find consistent information.

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/news/br ... 0stations.

Overall, zero carbon sources outperformed traditional fossil fuel generation in 2023 by providing 51% of the electricity used this year, compared to 32% from gas and 1% from coal stations.

I agree, none of this is a quick fix. All of it will require funding. All of it is needed regardless, and it's needed as soon as possible. Stopping new licenses is not a quick stop, current oil and gas production will continue. Drilling more oil and gas is releasing more CO2 into the atmosphere, that needs to stop, and to stop quickly. The UK cannot do it alone, sure, but it's no good if every country sits on their hands saying "Well I'm not going to do it if you don't."

I don't have an issue with the UK leading the way in reducing Oil & Gas production the EPL has already had the impact of reducing the number of wells in the UKCS- A total of five exploration and three appraisal wells have the potential of spudding this year, although many may be delayed or not complete by year end.- this is a historic low , but make no mistake that the investment from UK operators will be made in other areas of the world, so in effect all you are doing is moving the issue out of the UK , but it will make no difference globally , infact moving it out of the UK may make the position worse

Lets get ourselves into a position where other countries can point at us and say "Well they did it, and it's working well for them!". Lets be pioneers and world leaders again, since if no one does it, we're all fucked anyway.

Which is fine , and to some extent I support , but to think that if the UK eventually shut down O&G production that would effect any of the other oil producing countries in the world would be naive in the extreme, to an extent it's gesture politics, but if it is the right way forward , it's still the right way forward

The proof of the pudding is ofcourse in the eating - it was disappointing to see the Labour’s “warm homes plan” already watered down . Previously, the party had pledged to insulate 19 million homes over the next decade in a bid to reduce energy bills.

After sobering analysis the policy could cost up to £15bn, this has been reduced to insulating just five million homes over the next five years.

[Raggs]

That's not what I meant. I meant, how much of the gas we use is used to heat homes vs used to generate electricity.

Managed to find a PDF showing that 2022 usage has electricity at around 33%, domestic usage at 32% then others making up the difference.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _4_Gas.pdf

Domestic usage has seen a decrease over the past 20 years, with an overall trend for natural gas going down too (8% from 2021 to 2022). In fact looking at it, there's drops in demand for natural gas across the board by the looks of it. Prices may have effected that though.

Electricity generation is an easy target to chop down a lot. Insulation improvements is another. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it gets use closer.

As a planet we have to cut usage. Anything that's drilled/dug out of the ground is going to be used. If we leave it down there, it can't be. Yes, maybe other countries will try and keep digging theirs up, but by not drilling it in the first place, it is stuck there and will hopefully stay that way.

[Dogbert]

That's not what I meant. I meant, how much of the gas we use is used to heat homes vs used to generate electricity.

Managed to find a PDF showing that 2022 usage has electricity at around 33%, domestic usage at 32% then others making up the difference.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _4_Gas.pdf

Domestic usage has seen a decrease over the past 20 years, with an overall trend for natural gas going down too (8% from 2021 to 2022). In fact looking at it, there's drops in demand for natural gas across the board by the looks of it. Prices may have effected that though.As would a major pandemic, and the fact that high energy costs will mean people not using their heating in winter.

Electricity generation is an easy target to chop down a lot.Certainly easier than the domestic use of gas for heating , but you still have 78% of British homes who heat their houses with gas where is the plan to change over all of these existing homes to another energy source for heating/ cooking etc Insulation improvements is another. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it gets use closer.

As a planet we have to cut usage. Anything that's drilled/dug out of the ground is going to be used. If we leave it down there, it can't be. Yes, maybe other countries will try and keep digging theirs up, but by not drilling it in the first place, it is stuck there and will hopefully stay that way.

I don't believe that any other major Fossil Fuel producing country will cut back on E&P , no matter what the UK does - do you

[Raggs]

I don't know where the plan to eliminate all gas use forever is, I don't know that there isn't one etc. So because we don't know where the plan is, or because it'll be difficult, or because maybe not everyone else is going to do it, we shouldn't bother either, and fuck the next generation...

We cannot keep thinking that way, one country has to be first. Costings show that renewables are cheaper in the long run (basically just not construction) for producing electricity vs other sources. Lets take the cheaper option.

Yes, we still need gas, lets increase our biogas production. Lets keep converting everyone possible to heat pumps. Lets keep improving building standards and insulation schemes.

And yes, lets stop new drilling because if it doesn't stay locked up in the ground, it goes up in the air, one way or another, and will fuck us up.

[epwc]

I don't know where the plan to eliminate all gas use forever is, I don't know that there isn't one etc. So because we don't know where the plan is, or because it'll be difficult, or because maybe not everyone else is going to do it, we shouldn't bother either, and fuck the next generation...

We cannot keep thinking that way, one country has to be first. Costings show that renewables are cheaper in the long run (basically just not construction) for producing electricity vs other sources. Lets take the cheaper option.

Yes, we still need gas, lets increase our biogas production. Lets keep converting everyone possible to heat pumps. Lets keep improving building standards and insulation schemes.

And yes, lets stop new drilling because if it doesn't stay locked up in the ground, it goes up in the air, one way or another, and will fuck us up.

Exactly

[epwc]

https://electrek.co/2024/07/02/american ... c-engines/

[Dogbert]

Real World , Proven Technology

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/244 ... tish-loch/

The Hamilton-based Intelligent Land Investments Group is today lodging a Section 36 planning application with the Scottish Government for Balliemeanoch PSH, a significant 1.5GW pumped storage hydro (PSH) project in Argyll and Bute.

It is claimed the project will enhance the UK's renewable energy infrastructure, potentially powering 4.5 million homes and reducing the country’s carbon emissions by 200 million tonnes over the project’s lifetime.

[Blackmac]

Real World , Proven Technology

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/244 ... tish-loch/

The Hamilton-based Intelligent Land Investments Group is today lodging a Section 36 planning application with the Scottish Government for Balliemeanoch PSH, a significant 1.5GW pumped storage hydro (PSH) project in Argyll and Bute.

It is claimed the project will enhance the UK's renewable energy infrastructure, potentially powering 4.5 million homes and reducing the country’s carbon emissions by 200 million tonnes over the project’s lifetime.

But the NIMBY's and environmentalists will be out in force.

[geordie_6]

Was speaking to my sister earlier who is a senior probation officer and she says everyone is absolutely over the moon at Timpson's appointment and there is a general relief that someone who knows what they are talking about is finally in charge.

Yes we're all basically hunkering down to wait and see what Labour can do to pull us out of the shit pile the Tories put us in.

Are you in probation as well?

I am, aye. It's not been fun in recent times.

[Sandstorm]

Can people please stop pimping heat pumps. They don’t work, your house will be fucking freezing all winter.

[Hal Jordan]

Can people please stop pimping heat pumps. They don’t work, your house will be fucking freezing all winter.

Er, no.

[epwc]

Can people please stop pimping heat pumps. They don’t work, your house will be fucking freezing all winter.

Tell me more

[Sandstorm]

Can people please stop pimping heat pumps. They don’t work, your house will be fucking freezing all winter.

Tell me more

They don’t produce enough heat. Period.
You need to spend 5 times more on the heat pump, install costs and insulation than for a new gas boiler.
The Government grants are bring loads of spoofers into the market who don’t know how to install them effectively and consumers are being ripped off.

Heat pumps will be the next big consumer scandal.

[epwc]

Can people please stop pimping heat pumps. They don’t work, your house will be fucking freezing all winter.

Tell me more

They don’t produce enough heat. Period.

You need to spend 5 times more on the heat pump, install costs and insulation than for a new gas boiler.
The Government grants are bring loads of spoofers into the market who don’t know how to install them effectively and consumers are being ripped off.

Heat pumps will be the next big consumer scandal.

They do produce enough heat, I can guarantee that. Have built 8 homes so far that use them.

Like anything else in life people need to be wary of installers because generally they don’t give a shit if a thing works, you need to do your research.

There are plenty of people who have the spare cash to install one just because it’s a good idea environmentally. There are also those that need the government grant.

People should take the time to understand at least a little about how insulation and airflow work, and whether they can improve those aspects before buying a heat pump.

But as I said at the start air source heat pumps 100% work and do so in all sorts of climatic conditions

[Sandstorm]

Building new homes and installing heat pumps has merit. Retrofitting them to existing properties is where they aren’t fit for purpose. Gas is the best option.

[mat the expat]

Building new homes and installing heat pumps has merit. Retrofitting them to existing properties is where they aren’t fit for purpose. Gas is the best option.

Are you talking about AC or Hot water?

Neither take much space so why wouldn't you retrofit?

[Yeeb]

Tell me more

They don’t produce enough heat. Period.

You need to spend 5 times more on the heat pump, install costs and insulation than for a new gas boiler.
The Government grants are bring loads of spoofers into the market who don’t know how to install them effectively and consumers are being ripped off.

Heat pumps will be the next big consumer scandal.

They do produce enough heat, I can guarantee that. Have built 8 homes so far that use them.

Like anything else in life people need to be wary of installers because generally they don’t give a shit if a thing works, you need to do your research.

There are plenty of people who have the spare cash to install one just because it’s a good idea environmentally. There are also those that need the government grant.

People should take the time to understand at least a little about how insulation and airflow work, and whether they can improve those aspects before buying a heat pump.

But as I said at the start air source heat pumps 100% work and do so in all sorts of climatic conditions

Plenty of people have spare cash to install one ? Where do you live Mr Moneybags, Oundle ?

[petej]

They don’t produce enough heat. Period.

You need to spend 5 times more on the heat pump, install costs and insulation than for a new gas boiler.
The Government grants are bring loads of spoofers into the market who don’t know how to install them effectively and consumers are being ripped off.

Heat pumps will be the next big consumer scandal.

They do produce enough heat, I can guarantee that. Have built 8 homes so far that use them.

Like anything else in life people need to be wary of installers because generally they don’t give a shit if a thing works, you need to do your research.

There are plenty of people who have the spare cash to install one just because it’s a good idea environmentally. There are also those that need the government grant.

People should take the time to understand at least a little about how insulation and airflow work, and whether they can improve those aspects before buying a heat pump.

But as I said at the start air source heat pumps 100% work and do so in all sorts of climatic conditions

Plenty of people have spare cash to install one ? Where do you live Mr Moneybags, Oundle ?

Considering how much people spend on a depreciating asset like cars the reluctance to spend elsewhere is sometimes strange. There is a proper sequence to this and retrofitting and heat pumps are one of the last things in that sequence. There are a lot of spoofers and heat pumps need to be ran differently.

[Yeeb]

They do produce enough heat, I can guarantee that. Have built 8 homes so far that use them.

Like anything else in life people need to be wary of installers because generally they don’t give a shit if a thing works, you need to do your research.

There are plenty of people who have the spare cash to install one just because it’s a good idea environmentally. There are also those that need the government grant.

People should take the time to understand at least a little about how insulation and airflow work, and whether they can improve those aspects before buying a heat pump.

But as I said at the start air source heat pumps 100% work and do so in all sorts of climatic conditions

Plenty of people have spare cash to install one ? Where do you live Mr Moneybags, Oundle ?

Considering how much people spend on a depreciating asset like cars the reluctance to spend elsewhere is sometimes strange. There is a proper sequence to this and retrofitting and heat pumps are one of the last things in that sequence. There are a lot of spoofers and heat pumps need to be ran differently.

I’m in leafy affluent Epsom , and yes the amount of new cars on finance around here is astonishing. Even a pretty bog standard Ford Kuga is £40k now .

Not one person around here has a heat pump , solar panels are around but far from common. Aga’s and wood burning fires like the one we have now are two a penny though

[epwc]

Building new homes and installing heat pumps has merit. Retrofitting them to existing properties is where they aren’t fit for purpose. Gas is the best option.

There are some cases where retrofitting will not work, but for the vast majority they will. But we have the shittest housing stock in Europe, we need to spend the money on airtightness and insulation too

[epwc]

Plenty of people have spare cash to install one ? Where do you live Mr Moneybags, Oundle ?

Where I live there are plenty of people that have multiple holidays a year, send their kids to private school, buy cars for their kids (none of mine have a car yet they just borrow mine if they need one) etc etc

In wider society how many people don’t have subs to at least a couple of streaming services, waste money on having takeaways and groceries delivered. I was talking to a decorator on our last site (from Clacton) who was whinging about the cost of living, he’d just had a full coverage tattoo done on his leg £3,500.

So yeah plenty of people can afford to invest in their homes but they only invest in stuff like agas and flash tellies that they can show off to other people.

[epwc]

Are you talking about AC or Hot water?

Neither take much space so why wouldn't you retrofit?

In the Uk you’re talking about replacing gas boilers that will be providing heating and hot water. The best way to use a heat pump for heating is with low temperature flow which means upgrading your radiators and pipe work if possible. It is doable without the extra work just not as efficient

[Yeeb]

Plenty of people have spare cash to install one ? Where do you live Mr Moneybags, Oundle ?

Where I live there are plenty of people that have multiple holidays a year, send their kids to private school, buy cars for their kids (none of mine have a car yet they just borrow mine if they need one) etc etc

In wider society how many people don’t have subs to at least a couple of streaming services, waste money on having takeaways and groceries delivered. I was talking to a decorator on our last site (from Clacton) who was whinging about the cost of living, he’d just had a full coverage tattoo done on his leg £3,500.

So yeah plenty of people can afford to invest in their homes but they only invest in stuff like agas and flash tellies that they can show off to other people.

Suspect that tattoo money was from his recent cash in hand work , the groceries and streaming services would come from his bank account . Let’s hope it was better quality work than Sards

[Sandstorm]

Building new homes and installing heat pumps has merit. Retrofitting them to existing properties is where they aren’t fit for purpose. Gas is the best option.

There are some cases where retrofitting will not work, but for the vast majority they will. But we have the shittest housing stock in Europe, we need to spend the money on airtightness and insulation too

Again, airtightness is fine for new builds put up using modern materials. It’s a disaster for Victorian properties than need to breathe.

[Raggs]

Building new homes and installing heat pumps has merit. Retrofitting them to existing properties is where they aren’t fit for purpose. Gas is the best option.

There are some cases where retrofitting will not work, but for the vast majority they will. But we have the shittest housing stock in Europe, we need to spend the money on airtightness and insulation too

Again, airtightness is fine for new builds put up using modern materials. It’s a disaster for Victorian properties than need to breathe.

So don't use heat pumps for Victorian housing, I'm guessing that's not most of the homes in the UK though.

[Dogbert]

There are some cases where retrofitting will not work, but for the vast majority they will. But we have the shittest housing stock in Europe, we need to spend the money on airtightness and insulation too

Again, airtightness is fine for new builds put up using modern materials. It’s a disaster for Victorian properties than need to breathe.

So don't use heat pumps for Victorian housing, I'm guessing that's not most of the homes in the UK though.

Again - The UK's housing stock is the leakiest in Europe: losing an average of 3°C of heat over 5 hour

[epwc]

Again, airtightness is fine for new builds put up using modern materials. It’s a disaster for Victorian properties than need to breathe.

All buildings need to breathe that’s why I mentioned ventilation in my first reply to you. Perfectly doable, one of the directors at the AECB superinsulated his Victorian terraced house in Hertford(?) years ago, transformed energy consumption and comfort

[epwc]

Here it is:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-h ... ter-155445

He didn’t have a massive budget

[epwc]

Another of his projects

https://www.partel.com/blogs/sustainabl ... trofitting

In my experience 50s houses are complete dogshit and really badly need upgrading

[weegie01]

And yes, lets stop new drilling because if it doesn't stay locked up in the ground, it goes up in the air, one way or another, and will fuck us up.

Nothing we do in the North Sea will make any difference to either our or global oil and gas consumption or emissions. This is why I can't see the 'leave it in the ground' argument'. Any reductions we make will just be compensated for by increases by others. Our balance of payments will suffer as we import more/export less. All we will have achieved is that we have exported jobs and income.

Demand needs to be reduced. Govt effort needs to go into driving renewables in a coherent way so there are viable alternatives which will inherently reduce oil and gas consumption, wherever it comes from. Heat pumps are a great solution for new builds, but they are just not as viable for older properties as advocates claim. The UK housing stock, even quite recently built properties, is essentially poorly insultaed. There is considerable work and expense required in a lot of properties before heat pumps are viable. Having said that, they do work perfectly well in many including my sisters 30 year old house that was built for a heat pump. We have looked at it in three properties. It is going into a 1950s bungalow. It is not going into our Victorian detached or our son's Georgian flat. The costs were simply prohibitive, to the extent that when we asked one heat pump installer who knows our house from other work to quote, he just laughed at us and told us to put in oil.

[petej]

Building new homes and installing heat pumps has merit. Retrofitting them to existing properties is where they aren’t fit for purpose. Gas is the best option.

There are some cases where retrofitting will not work, but for the vast majority they will. But we have the shittest housing stock in Europe, we need to spend the money on airtightness and insulation too

Again, airtightness is fine for new builds put up using modern materials. It’s a disaster for Victorian properties than need to breathe.

You need a ventilation system. No excuses on new properties though.

Could do with some changes to help self build and a tax on land banking. Basically, the big house builders need a kicking.

[mat the expat]

Building new homes and installing heat pumps has merit. Retrofitting them to existing properties is where they aren’t fit for purpose. Gas is the best option.

There are some cases where retrofitting will not work, but for the vast majority they will. But we have the shittest housing stock in Europe, we need to spend the money on airtightness and insulation too

Again, airtightness is fine for new builds put up using modern materials. It’s a disaster for Victorian properties than need to breathe.

Lol, you've not seen Australian houses - horrifically expensive to buy and made from paper.

Heating one is like burning dollar bills

[mat the expat]

Are you talking about AC or Hot water?

Neither take much space so why wouldn't you retrofit?

In the Uk you’re talking about replacing gas boilers that will be providing heating and hot water. The best way to use a heat pump for heating is with low temperature flow which means upgrading your radiators and pipe work if possible. It is doable without the extra work just not as efficient

It will have to happen at some point - split AC is cheap as chips for heating - and the way the UK is going, will help in summer also

[Dogbert]

And yes, lets stop new drilling because if it doesn't stay locked up in the ground, it goes up in the air, one way or another, and will fuck us up.

Nothing we do in the North Sea will make any difference to either our or global oil and gas consumption or emissions. This is why I can't see the 'leave it in the ground' argument'. Any reductions we make will just be compensated for by increases by others. Our balance of payments will suffer as we import more/export less. All we will have achieved is that we have exported jobs and income.

Demand needs to be reduced. Govt effort needs to go into driving renewables in a coherent way so there are viable alternatives which will inherently reduce oil and gas consumption, wherever it comes from. Heat pumps are a great solution for new builds, but they are just not as viable for older properties as advocates claim. The UK housing stock, even quite recently built properties, is essentially poorly insultaed. There is considerable work and expense required in a lot of properties before heat pumps are viable. Having said that, they do work perfectly well in many including my sisters 30 year old house that was built for a heat pump. We have looked at it in three properties. It is going into a 1950s bungalow. It is not going into our Victorian detached or our son's Georgian flat. The costs were simply prohibitive, to the extent that when we asked one heat pump installer who knows our house from other work to quote, he just laughed at us and told us to put in oil.

But its worse than that - the probability is that the extra production will come from countries which have a lax regulatory system than in the UKCS, more gas flaring / less strict controls on spillages ( anyone who has ever had to submit a PON1 will know what I'm talking about ) / less environmental legislation etc

All that happens would be for the same volumes being extracted but with greater environmental costs.

What we should be doing is forcing the E&P producers to reduce , as far as possible, the emissions, electrification of platforms etc

[petej]

And yes, lets stop new drilling because if it doesn't stay locked up in the ground, it goes up in the air, one way or another, and will fuck us up.

Nothing we do in the North Sea will make any difference to either our or global oil and gas consumption or emissions. This is why I can't see the 'leave it in the ground' argument'. Any reductions we make will just be compensated for by increases by others. Our balance of payments will suffer as we import more/export less. All we will have achieved is that we have exported jobs and income.

Demand needs to be reduced. Govt effort needs to go into driving renewables in a coherent way so there are viable alternatives which will inherently reduce oil and gas consumption, wherever it comes from. Heat pumps are a great solution for new builds, but they are just not as viable for older properties as advocates claim. The UK housing stock, even quite recently built properties, is essentially poorly insultaed. There is considerable work and expense required in a lot of properties before heat pumps are viable. Having said that, they do work perfectly well in many including my sisters 30 year old house that was built for a heat pump. We have looked at it in three properties. It is going into a 1950s bungalow. It is not going into our Victorian detached or our son's Georgian flat. The costs were simply prohibitive, to the extent that when we asked one heat pump installer who knows our house from other work to quote, he just laughed at us and told us to put in oil.

But its worse than that - the probability is that the extra production will come from countries which have a lax regulatory system than in the UKCS, more gas flaring / less strict controls on spillages ( anyone who has ever had to submit a PON1 will know what I'm talking about ) / less environmental legislation etc

All that happens would be for the same volumes being extracted but with greater environmental costs.

What we should be doing is forcing the E&P producers to reduce , as far as possible, the emissions, electrification of platforms etc

I agree on the regulation aspect with regard to extracting oil and gas.

You need consumer behaviour changes on this and good information. A lot of the things you could do would be vote losers.

In terms of what I would dumb behaviour I know someone who has an expensive Tesla that won't fit a home charger (has driveway and space).