NPR

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 11:08 pm Boeing has reacted to pressure from everyone, & paused their attempts to certify the 737 MAX - 7, & 737 MAX - 10 versions.

They've been bitten again by their trying to short circuit the approval process, by pretending the completely new engines could just be waved thru with the same controls & training as the ones they had 40 years ago

This time it;s the minor matter of the anti-icing controls causing the engine inlets (now CF not Steel), to be warped so badly that they can explode & potentially rupture the fuselage, or wings. It's hard to know how a Engineering company couldn't work out that CF reacts slightly differently to steel to extremely high temperature gases.

I'm no longer surprised that fuckwit who killed people diving down to the Titanic used Boeing CF techniques.

petej wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 11:54 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 11:08 pm Boeing has reacted to pressure from everyone, & paused their attempts to certify the 737 MAX - 7, & 737 MAX - 10 versions.

They've been bitten again by their trying to short circuit the approval process, by pretending the completely new engines could just be waved thru with the same controls & training as the ones they had 40 years ago

This time it;s the minor matter of the anti-icing controls causing the engine inlets (now CF not Steel), to be warped so badly that they can explode & potentially rupture the fuselage, or wings. It's hard to know how a Engineering company couldn't work out that CF reacts slightly differently to steel to extremely high temperature gases.

I'm no longer surprised that fuckwit who killed people diving down to the Titanic used Boeing CF techniques.

Inlets and high temperature gases? Outlets surely. Steels a bit heavy surely you mean aluminium or titanium or if properly hot a nickel alloy.

inactionman wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 8:51 am

petej wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 11:54 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 11:08 pm Boeing has reacted to pressure from everyone, & paused their attempts to certify the 737 MAX - 7, & 737 MAX - 10 versions.

They've been bitten again by their trying to short circuit the approval process, by pretending the completely new engines could just be waved thru with the same controls & training as the ones they had 40 years ago

This time it;s the minor matter of the anti-icing controls causing the engine inlets (now CF not Steel), to be warped so badly that they can explode & potentially rupture the fuselage, or wings. It's hard to know how a Engineering company couldn't work out that CF reacts slightly differently to steel to extremely high temperature gases.

I'm no longer surprised that fuckwit who killed people diving down to the Titanic used Boeing CF techniques.

Inlets and high temperature gases? Outlets surely. Steels a bit heavy surely you mean aluminium or titanium or if properly hot a nickel alloy.

The problem (well, one of many, but the specific one we're talking about here) is with the inlets - the ani-icing system is causing some problems with overheating, which is pushing temperatures beyond the material design limit.

The inlet temps won't be high. I'm not sure if there's some compressor gas bleed-off to run the anti-icing or if it's electrical, but both could get quite hot - although nowhere near hot enough to trouble most metals it seems to be causing issues here. I'm not that familiar with thermal properties of composites but I wouldn't want to be applying too much heat to them.

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 10:17 am

inactionman wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 8:51 am

petej wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 11:54 pm
Inlets and high temperature gases? Outlets surely. Steels a bit heavy surely you mean aluminium or titanium or if properly hot a nickel alloy.

The problem (well, one of many, but the specific one we're talking about here) is with the inlets - the ani-icing system is causing some problems with overheating, which is pushing temperatures beyond the material design limit.

The inlet temps won't be high. I'm not sure if there's some compressor gas bleed-off to run the anti-icing or if it's electrical, but both could get quite hot - although nowhere near hot enough to trouble most metals it seems to be causing issues here. I'm not that familiar with thermal properties of composites but I wouldn't want to be applying too much heat to them.

They use bleed off gases for later stages to heat the inlet. The problem is that the gases are so hot that if they are actually icing,, or the anti-icing switches are left in the on position, within a minute or two the CF can fracture. There are no sensors, so the pilot has to eyeball it continually, & guess.

It comes down to the ridiculous position that they couldn't change the anti-icing buttons at all (on/off), to (on/auto/off), & just install sensors, & still maintain the 737 type rating.

The MAX will go down as the most expensive & catastrophic cost saving exercise ever !

inactionman wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 12:48 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 10:17 am

inactionman wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 8:51 am

The problem (well, one of many, but the specific one we're talking about here) is with the inlets - the ani-icing system is causing some problems with overheating, which is pushing temperatures beyond the material design limit.

The inlet temps won't be high. I'm not sure if there's some compressor gas bleed-off to run the anti-icing or if it's electrical, but both could get quite hot - although nowhere near hot enough to trouble most metals it seems to be causing issues here. I'm not that familiar with thermal properties of composites but I wouldn't want to be applying too much heat to them.

They use bleed off gases for later stages to heat the inlet. The problem is that the gases are so hot that if they are actually icing,, or the anti-icing switches are left in the on position, within a minute or two the CF can fracture. There are no sensors, so the pilot has to eyeball it continually, & guess.

It comes down to the ridiculous position that they couldn't change the anti-icing buttons at all (on/off), to (on/auto/off), & just install sensors, & still maintain the 737 type rating.

The MAX will go down as the most expensive & catastrophic cost saving exercise ever !

In an era where aerospace companies are doing their utmost to reduce crew workload, that seems utterly mental. It's asking for failure.

I always worried about upgrading a 50 year old design (or is it even older?) as many of the approaches are so dated that they're never going to catch up to current regs. It's still 'cable and pulley' (or whatever hydraulic equivalent is), from what I understand.

Even with that, some decisions are baffling. No anti-icing temp sensor, not alternative sensor (well, it's an optional extra) for the angle of attack sensor that caused all the MCAS issues. Surely someone realised this would end in tears?

fishfoodie wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 10:17 am

inactionman wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 8:51 am

petej wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 11:54 pm Inlets and high temperature gases? Outlets surely. Steels a bit heavy surely you mean aluminium or titanium or if properly hot a nickel alloy.

The problem (well, one of many, but the specific one we're talking about here) is with the inlets - the ani-icing system is causing some problems with overheating, which is pushing temperatures beyond the material design limit.

The inlet temps won't be high. I'm not sure if there's some compressor gas bleed-off to run the anti-icing or if it's electrical, but both could get quite hot - although nowhere near hot enough to trouble most metals it seems to be causing issues here. I'm not that familiar with thermal properties of composites but I wouldn't want to be applying too much heat to them.

They use bleed off gases for later stages to heat the inlet. The problem is that the gases are so hot that if they are actually icing,, or the anti-icing switches are left in the on position, within a minute or two the CF can fracture. There are no sensors, so the pilot has to eyeball it continually, & guess.

It comes down to the ridiculous position that they couldn't change the anti-icing buttons at all (on/off), to (on/auto/off), & just install sensors, & still maintain the 737 type rating.

The MAX will go down as the most expensive & catastrophic cost saving exercise ever !

Uncle fester wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 7:57 am Whistleblower dies of self inflicted wounds.
Share Message - Boeing whistleblower found dead in US
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68534703

laurent wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:25 am

Uncle fester wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 7:57 am Whistleblower dies of self inflicted wounds.
Share Message - Boeing whistleblower found dead in US
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68534703

Did he fall on his pickaxe ?

Sandstorm wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 9:20 am

laurent wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:25 am

Uncle fester wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 7:57 am Whistleblower dies of self inflicted wounds.
Share Message - Boeing whistleblower found dead in US
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68534703

Did he fall on his pickaxe ?

He and his pickup truck fell out of a upstairs window.

The US has opened a new probe of troubled jet firm Boeing, after the company told air safety regulators that it might not have properly inspected its 787 Dreamliner planes.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said it would look into whether staff had falsified records.

It said Boeing was reinspecting all 787 jets still on the manufacturing line.

Boeing will be forced to develop an "action plan" to address concerns about planes already in service, it added.

Boeing did not comment.

Internally, it told staff that the "misconduct" had not created an "immediate safety of flight issue", according to a message seen by the Wall Street Journal, which first reported the investigation.

Shares in the company fell more than 1% after the investigation was announced.

...

fishfoodie wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 10:31 pm Jesus.... H.....Christ !

How bad does it have to get before the shareholders demand the sacking of every manager above a set level, & the cancellation of all benefits for the ones they've sacked over the last few years ?

The US has opened a new probe of troubled jet firm Boeing, after the company told air safety regulators that it might not have properly inspected its 787 Dreamliner planes.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said it would look into whether staff had falsified records.

It said Boeing was reinspecting all 787 jets still on the manufacturing line.

Boeing will be forced to develop an "action plan" to address concerns about planes already in service, it added.

Boeing did not comment.

Internally, it told staff that the "misconduct" had not created an "immediate safety of flight issue", according to a message seen by the Wall Street Journal, which first reported the investigation.

Shares in the company fell more than 1% after the investigation was announced.

...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68966894

Guy Smiley wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 10:39 pm holy crap...

holeee crap. Grab that by the handle end and whang it around the head of anyone trying to convince you of the benefits of small government, market self regulation.

Sandstorm wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 3:34 am

Guy Smiley wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 10:39 pm holy crap...

holeee crap. Grab that by the handle end and whang it around the head of anyone trying to convince you of the benefits of small government, market self regulation.

Airbus are doing fine in that environment. So are Embraer. And every other small jet manufacturer. Boeing decided to choose cost cutting over safety for maximum shareholder payouts.

fishfoodie wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 10:31 pm Jesus.... H.....Christ !

How bad does it have to get before the shareholders demand the sacking of every manager above a set level, & the cancellation of all benefits for the ones they've sacked over the last few years ?

The US has opened a new probe of troubled jet firm Boeing, after the company told air safety regulators that it might not have properly inspected its 787 Dreamliner planes.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said it would look into whether staff had falsified records.

It said Boeing was reinspecting all 787 jets still on the manufacturing line.

Boeing will be forced to develop an "action plan" to address concerns about planes already in service, it added.

Boeing did not comment.

Internally, it told staff that the "misconduct" had not created an "immediate safety of flight issue", according to a message seen by the Wall Street Journal, which first reported the investigation.

Shares in the company fell more than 1% after the investigation was announced.

...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68966894

Uncle fester wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 9:35 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 10:31 pm Jesus.... H.....Christ !

How bad does it have to get before the shareholders demand the sacking of every manager above a set level, & the cancellation of all benefits for the ones they've sacked over the last few years ?

The US has opened a new probe of troubled jet firm Boeing, after the company told air safety regulators that it might not have properly inspected its 787 Dreamliner planes.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said it would look into whether staff had falsified records.

It said Boeing was reinspecting all 787 jets still on the manufacturing line.

Boeing will be forced to develop an "action plan" to address concerns about planes already in service, it added.

Boeing did not comment.

Internally, it told staff that the "misconduct" had not created an "immediate safety of flight issue", according to a message seen by the Wall Street Journal, which first reported the investigation.

Shares in the company fell more than 1% after the investigation was announced.

...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68966894

Meh, shareholders are complicit as far as I'm concerned.

dpedin wrote: Fri May 10, 2024 11:11 am I did some work in an oil company years ago where production was king, keep the oil flowing whatever, etc. The amount of pressure on employees was huge and it was well known that significant risks were taken to make sure the oil kept flowing ... then we had Piper Alpha! Lots of work and research into that horrific incident both technical and human risk factors including management culture etc. They ran a really interesting senior management session called 'Why incredibly bright and clever people do the most stupid and dangerous things', in effect showing the senior guys the consequences of their own actions be it finance, engineering, production, HR, etc. Every function contributed in some way to the disaster that took place, they were all guilty. You could do exactly the same for every major disaster in every industry. Boeing are no different, the experience and research on all of this is absolutely emphatic they know all this yet ignored it and took managerial decisions that would lead to a catastrophic outcome. Ignorance is no excuse for what is in effect corporate manslaughter!

A Boeing 737 plane has landed safely in Invercargill after been diverted from Queenstown when flames were reportedly seen coming from the engine.

According to Lakes Weekly, the plane took off over the Shotover Delta from Queenstown Airport at about 6pm and appeared to have been experiencing engine problems during take off.

There are reportedly 73 people on board the Virgin Airlines flight and it is being reported an engine has been shut down.

Members of the public saw flames coming from one of the engines and heard loud bangs.

Darren Robinson filmed the plane going over his house and told Stuff the flames were noticeable.

“I was inside with the kids and heard something that sounded like someone was doing donuts or something. I went outside and saw flames coming out of this plane’s engine.”

“They were not constant flames, more like boom, boom, boom. It was almost like it was backfiring,” he said.

Do you know more? Email Stuff at newsroom@stuff.co.nz

Robinson added the flames were decent and were spinning out the back of the plane's engine.

Firefighters were alerted to the blaze soon after 6pm when the plane took off from Queenstown Airport, Fire and Emergency southern shift manager Lyn Crosson said.

"It looked like fire showing from one engine," she said.

"The engine has been shut down so it's not an issue, and we have got crews on the ground at Invercargill Airport as a precaution only."

Crosson said she believed the plane would land safely because the plane's staff had “done all the precautions."

She had received reports that the fire may have been caused by a bird strike, but had not received confirmation.

The flight was originally bound for Melbourne.

The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating after a Southwest Airlines flight reportedly plunged to “within 400ft” of the Pacific Ocean during a flight.

A memo distributed to Southwest pilots, obtained by Bloomberg, said that the Boeing 737 Max 8 plunged at a rate of 4,000ft a minute off the coast of Hawaii, coming within hundreds of feet of the ocean before climbing to safety.

News of the incident comes as investigators said a Southwest-operated Boeing 737 Max 8 sustained significant damage after it did a “Dutch roll” during a flight from Phoenix to Oakland in May.

inactionman wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:21 am Two incidents presumably involving a loss of control

The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating after a Southwest Airlines flight reportedly plunged to “within 400ft” of the Pacific Ocean during a flight.

A memo distributed to Southwest pilots, obtained by Bloomberg, said that the Boeing 737 Max 8 plunged at a rate of 4,000ft a minute off the coast of Hawaii, coming within hundreds of feet of the ocean before climbing to safety.

News of the incident comes as investigators said a Southwest-operated Boeing 737 Max 8 sustained significant damage after it did a “Dutch roll” during a flight from Phoenix to Oakland in May.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... dutch-roll

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:36 pm

inactionman wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:21 am Two incidents presumably involving a loss of control

The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating after a Southwest Airlines flight reportedly plunged to “within 400ft” of the Pacific Ocean during a flight.

A memo distributed to Southwest pilots, obtained by Bloomberg, said that the Boeing 737 Max 8 plunged at a rate of 4,000ft a minute off the coast of Hawaii, coming within hundreds of feet of the ocean before climbing to safety.

News of the incident comes as investigators said a Southwest-operated Boeing 737 Max 8 sustained significant damage after it did a “Dutch roll” during a flight from Phoenix to Oakland in May.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... dutch-roll

Dutch roll incident was mechanical failure, but the Hawaii flight was a very junior 1st officer trying a mid-storm landing at an airport with a difficult approach. So not Boeing’s fault.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:57 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:36 pm

inactionman wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:21 am Two incidents presumably involving a loss of control



https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... dutch-roll

Dutch roll incident was mechanical failure, but the Hawaii flight was a very junior 1st officer trying a mid-storm landing at an airport with a difficult approach. So not Boeing’s fault.

One of the most misleading titles. Not so much a roll as a wiggle.

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 7:50 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:57 pm

Sandstorm wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:36 pm

Dutch roll incident was mechanical failure, but the Hawaii flight was a very junior 1st officer trying a mid-storm landing at an airport with a difficult approach. So not Boeing’s fault.

One of the most misleading titles. Not so much a roll as a wiggle.

At 30k ft, when you realize you're in a MAX, it feels like your pilot thinks he's in the Red Arrows & has decided to do a barrel roll