Exeter Chiefs chop and imagery

[Biffer]

I would hope that Exeter, and indeed other clubs, would follow the lead of the BlackHawks and ban headdresses from their stadium. Good argument for adding Fezzes to the banned list too.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/ch ... -1.5641403

[Glaston]

What is the dividing line?

Historical culture , how far back can you go without offending some one?

More modern cultures, are only relatively successful ones useable?
Why is Viking/Celtic/Irish OK but not American Indian?



When will we deem inappropriate, useage of animal logos especially if they are endangered?

There are no Tigers in Leicester or Sharks in Sale or Bears in Bristol.





I do admit I have always found the Exeter stuff a bit cringy.

[FujiKiwi]

What is the dividing line?

Historical culture , how far back can you go without offending some one?

More modern cultures, are only relatively successful ones useable?
Why is Viking/Celtic/Irish OK but not American Indian?

When will we deem inappropriate, useage of animal logos especially if they are endangered?

There are no Tigers in Leicester or Sharks in Sale or Bears in Bristol.

I do admit I have always found the Exeter stuff a bit cringy.

Slippery slope fallacy: "We should never do something quite reasonable because that lead to something ridiculous".

As a descendant of Vikings and Celts, I can say that as identities, those had their heyday over a thousand years ago.

There are indigenous tribes who are still suffering the effects of oppression today. if they ask you to stop doing something that is easy for you to give up, why wouldn't you?

[assfly]

. if they ask you to stop doing something that is easy for you to give up, why wouldn't you?

Because that's not how the world works?

[FujiKiwi]

. if they ask you to stop doing something that is easy for you to give up, why wouldn't you?

Because that's not how the world works?

It’s called being a decent human being.

[Biffer]

What is the dividing line?

Historical culture , how far back can you go without offending some one?

More modern cultures, are only relatively successful ones useable?
Why is Viking/Celtic/Irish OK but not American Indian?



When will we deem inappropriate, useage of animal logos especially if they are endangered?

There are no Tigers in Leicester or Sharks in Sale or Bears in Bristol.





I do admit I have always found the Exeter stuff a bit cringy.

It's not hard. Are you doing it to someone who suffers discrimination, oppression or some other disadvantage due to their race / ethnicity?

There's not really any discrimination against Vikings in today's society.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It's not hard. Are you doing it to someone who suffers discrimination, oppression or some other disadvantage due to their race / ethnicity?

There's not really any discrimination against Vikings in today's society.

But the Celts still get it hard?

[Sandstorm]

It's not hard. Are you doing it to someone who suffers discrimination, oppression or some other disadvantage due to their race / ethnicity?

There's not really any discrimination against Vikings in today's society.

But the Celts still get it hard?

Yeah baby!

[Biffer]

It's not hard. Are you doing it to someone who suffers discrimination, oppression or some other disadvantage due to their race / ethnicity?

There's not really any discrimination against Vikings in today's society.

But the Celts still get it hard?

yeah, I get plenty thanks.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It's not hard. Are you doing it to someone who suffers discrimination, oppression or some other disadvantage due to their race / ethnicity?

There's not really any discrimination against Vikings in today's society.

But the Celts still get it hard?

Yeah baby!

Austin Powers? Probably less offensive as an English character than the idea Shrek has a Scottish accent, but dangerous territory either way

[Jock42]

But the Celts still get it hard?

Yeah baby!

Austin Powers? Probably less offensive as an English character than the idea Shrek has a Scottish accent, but dangerous territory either way

I in no way see it as offensive. I'd argue it's more offensive that every fictional character has American or English accents.

[Jock42]

What is the dividing line?

Historical culture , how far back can you go without offending some one?

Aye, at what point do the Highlanders become offensive?

[Un Pilier]

Yeah baby!

Austin Powers? Probably less offensive as an English character than the idea Shrek has a Scottish accent, but dangerous territory either way

I in no way see it as offensive. I'd argue it's more offensive that every fictional character has American or English accents.

I think I must be missing something here? You can’t really be saying every fictional character has an American or English Accent can you?

[fishfoodie]

What is the dividing line?

Historical culture , how far back can you go without offending some one?

Aye, at what point do the Highlanders become offensive?

"never trust a Campbell."

[Jock42]

Austin Powers? Probably less offensive as an English character than the idea Shrek has a Scottish accent, but dangerous territory either way

I in no way see it as offensive. I'd argue it's more offensive that every fictional character has American or English accents.

I think I must be missing something here? You can’t really be saying every fictional character has an American or English Accent can you?

No. I'm saying it would be offensive if they did. R&C us saying Shrek is potentially offensive.

[Un Pilier]

I in no way see it as offensive. I'd argue it's more offensive that every fictional character has American or English accents.

I think I must be missing something here? You can’t really be saying every fictional character has an American or English Accent can you?

No. I'm saying it would be offensive if they did. R&C us saying Shrek is potentially offensive.

Ah. Right

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I in no way see it as offensive. I'd argue it's more offensive that every fictional character has American or English accents.

I think I must be missing something here? You can’t really be saying every fictional character has an American or English Accent can you?

No. I'm saying it would be offensive if they did. R&C us saying Shrek is potentially offensive.

I'd lean more towards not caring if it's offensive. I suppose it's offensively bad as an accent, but unless people are being forced to watch I don't give two hoots

[FujiKiwi]

Aye, at what point do the Highlanders become offensive?

When living, real life highlanders clearly, sincerely explain why the use of the image is offensive to them. You know. The way Native Americans have.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Aye, at what point do the Highlanders become offensive?

When living, real life highlanders clearly, sincerely explain why the use of the image is offensive to them. You know. The way Native Americans have.

All jokes about the English are offensive and must stop now, they are sincerely and deeply hurtful.

[Jock42]

Aye, at what point do the Highlanders become offensive?

When living, real life highlanders clearly, sincerely explain why the use of the image is offensive to them. You know. The way Native Americans have.

Well that was a rather childish post in what has been a decent thread from what I've read.

[FujiKiwi]

Aye, at what point do the Highlanders become offensive?

When living, real life highlanders clearly, sincerely explain why the use of the image is offensive to them. You know. The way Native Americans have.

Well that was a rather childish post in what has been a decent thread from what I've read.

I find it odd that you're taking issue with my response to your post. You gave a red herring argument and I replied with some light sarcasm.

Perhaps we're misunderstanding each other. To clarify: Native American people have complained about sports teams using them as an image. Nobody has taken issue with the Highlanders' name and imagery. Your post seemed to be trying to suggest an equivalence that just isn't there.

[Jock42]

When living, real life highlanders clearly, sincerely explain why the use of the image is offensive to them. You know. The way Native Americans have.

Well that was a rather childish post in what has been a decent thread from what I've read.

I find it odd that you're taking issue with my response to your post. You gave a red herring argument and I replied with some light sarcasm.

Perhaps we're misunderstanding each other. To clarify: Native American people have complained about sports teams using them as an image. Nobody has taken issue with the Highlanders' name and imagery. Your post seemed to be trying to suggest an equivalence that just isn't there.

It's in no way a "red herring argument". It was in response to a specific argument about historical culture. I've not suggested any equivalence.

[JM2K6]

To be fair, jock, it was largely set up by the disingenous "what's next, SHARKS and TIGERS?" post. It had been a decent convo before that.

[FujiKiwi]

The Highlanders rugby team has a connection to the Scottish Highlands. Many of the early settlers in the Otago region were from Scotland in general and the highlands in particular. The name "Dunedin" is the Gaelic word for "Edinburgh".

This is in contrast to the Exeter Chiefs who have no connection to indigenous American peoples.

This connection would still not justify the Highlanders rugby team using the name if there were systematically oppressed people in the Highlands today asking for the rugby team not to use their name and culture.

As far as I know, no such movement exists.

[FujiKiwi]

All jokes about the English are offensive and must stop now, they are sincerely and deeply hurtful.

The reason indigenous people need to be treated with particular sensitivity is that they have endured the effects of colonialism. I think the general consensus is that the English haven't suffered too badly through the whole colonial process.

[Biffer]

The Highlanders rugby team has a connection to the Scottish Highlands. Many of the early settlers in the Otago region were from Scotland in general and the highlands in particular. The name "Dunedin" is the Gaelic word for "Edinburgh".

This is in contrast to the Exeter Chiefs who have no connection to indigenous American peoples.

This connection would still not justify the Highlanders rugby team using the name if there were systematically oppressed people in the Highlands today asking for the rugby team not to use their name and culture.

As far as I know, no such movement exists.

Yep, about 20 per cent of New Zealander’s have Scottish roots, South Island has particularly strong links. You just have to look at the street names walking around Dunedin and the links are obvious.

[FujiKiwi]

Yeah. On my Dad's side I have a great, great grandfather from Glasgow and a great, great grandmother from Orkney. My mother is descended from the "Begbies" in Edinburgh. Watching Trainspotting for the first time was educational in regard to the characteristics that are obviously so common in that family line.

[ASMO]

The Highlanders rugby team has a connection to the Scottish Highlands. Many of the early settlers in the Otago region were from Scotland in general and the highlands in particular. The name "Dunedin" is the Gaelic word for "Edinburgh".

This is in contrast to the Exeter Chiefs who have no connection to indigenous American peoples.

This connection would still not justify the Highlanders rugby team using the name if there were systematically oppressed people in the Highlands today asking for the rugby team not to use their name and culture.

As far as I know, no such movement exists.

You might want to look up the Highland Clearances

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/H ... learances/

[FujiKiwi]

I know about the Highland clearances. It doesn’t change anything in the post you quoted.

[Biffer]

The Highlanders rugby team has a connection to the Scottish Highlands. Many of the early settlers in the Otago region were from Scotland in general and the highlands in particular. The name "Dunedin" is the Gaelic word for "Edinburgh".

This is in contrast to the Exeter Chiefs who have no connection to indigenous American peoples.

This connection would still not justify the Highlanders rugby team using the name if there were systematically oppressed people in the Highlands today asking for the rugby team not to use their name and culture.

As far as I know, no such movement exists.

You might want to look up the Highland Clearances

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/H ... learances/

In this case it’s the descendants of Scots who were cleared that are using the name and imagery. In the case of the Chiefs you could argue it’s the descendants of the people who did the murdering of the native Americans who are using the imagery. That’s the difference.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

All jokes about the English are offensive and must stop now, they are sincerely and deeply hurtful.

The reason indigenous people need to be treated with particular sensitivity is that they have endured the effects of colonialism. I think the general consensus is that the English haven't suffered too badly through the whole colonial process.

So because we have to go back further for the many, many invasions of England we treat people unequally?

[Slick]

The Highlanders rugby team has a connection to the Scottish Highlands. Many of the early settlers in the Otago region were from Scotland in general and the highlands in particular. The name "Dunedin" is the Gaelic word for "Edinburgh".

This is in contrast to the Exeter Chiefs who have no connection to indigenous American peoples.

This connection would still not justify the Highlanders rugby team using the name if there were systematically oppressed people in the Highlands today asking for the rugby team not to use their name and culture.

As far as I know, no such movement exists.

There are plenty of Scottish Highlanders who would say they have been, and still are, oppressed

[FujiKiwi]

So because we have to go back further for the many, many invasions of England we treat people unequally?

Well I was being a bit flippant. But the oppression a group has faced for the past two hundred years, right up to the present moment isn’t the same as a few Vikings pillaging a monastery a thousand years ago. An obvious difference.

[FujiKiwi]

The Highlanders rugby team has a connection to the Scottish Highlands. Many of the early settlers in the Otago region were from Scotland in general and the highlands in particular. The name "Dunedin" is the Gaelic word for "Edinburgh".

This is in contrast to the Exeter Chiefs who have no connection to indigenous American peoples.

This connection would still not justify the Highlanders rugby team using the name if there were systematically oppressed people in the Highlands today asking for the rugby team not to use their name and culture.

As far as I know, no such movement exists.

There are plenty of Scottish Highlanders who would say they have been, and still are, oppressed

My post left that as a possibility. Are these people campaigning to have the Otago Highlanders change their name and branding?

[Jock42]

The Highlanders rugby team has a connection to the Scottish Highlands. Many of the early settlers in the Otago region were from Scotland in general and the highlands in particular. The name "Dunedin" is the Gaelic word for "Edinburgh".

This is in contrast to the Exeter Chiefs who have no connection to indigenous American peoples.

This connection would still not justify the Highlanders rugby team using the name if there were systematically oppressed people in the Highlands today asking for the rugby team not to use their name and culture.

As far as I know, no such movement exists.

Yep, about 20 per cent of New Zealander’s have Scottish roots, South Island has particularly strong links. You just have to look at the street names walking around Dunedin and the links are obvious.

And when does this ancestry become so diluted it's no longer relevant.

I really wasn't expecting that comment to generate as much discussion one or another

[Slick]

The Highlanders rugby team has a connection to the Scottish Highlands. Many of the early settlers in the Otago region were from Scotland in general and the highlands in particular. The name "Dunedin" is the Gaelic word for "Edinburgh".

This is in contrast to the Exeter Chiefs who have no connection to indigenous American peoples.

This connection would still not justify the Highlanders rugby team using the name if there were systematically oppressed people in the Highlands today asking for the rugby team not to use their name and culture.

As far as I know, no such movement exists.

There are plenty of Scottish Highlanders who would say they have been, and still are, oppressed

My post left that as a possibility. Are these people campaigning to have the Otago Highlanders change their name and branding?

I don’t think so. My guess would be that they have better things to do

[Rhubarb & Custard]

So because we have to go back further for the many, many invasions of England we treat people unequally?

Well I was being a bit flippant. But the oppression a group has faced for the past two hundred years, right up to the present moment isn’t the same as a few Vikings pillaging a monastery a thousand years ago. An obvious difference.

And if one looks at the power dynamics resulting from invasion and counter invasion, from serfdom through to low paid labour, are we happy to say everyone has escaped oppression? For sure we've got a certain amount of social mobility, but so have Native Americans

[Biffer]

So because we have to go back further for the many, many invasions of England we treat people unequally?

Well I was being a bit flippant. But the oppression a group has faced for the past two hundred years, right up to the present moment isn’t the same as a few Vikings pillaging a monastery a thousand years ago. An obvious difference.

And if one looks at the power dynamics resulting from invasion and counter invasion, from serfdom through to low paid labour, are we happy to say everyone has escaped oppression? For sure we've got a certain amount of social mobility, but so have Native Americans

I don't think its clear that everyone has escaped it.

[JM2K6]

So because we have to go back further for the many, many invasions of England we treat people unequally?

Well I was being a bit flippant. But the oppression a group has faced for the past two hundred years, right up to the present moment isn’t the same as a few Vikings pillaging a monastery a thousand years ago. An obvious difference.

And if one looks at the power dynamics resulting from invasion and counter invasion, from serfdom through to low paid labour, are we happy to say everyone has escaped oppression? For sure we've got a certain amount of social mobility, but so have Native Americans

This sort of sophistry is kinda aggravating just FYI.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Well I was being a bit flippant. But the oppression a group has faced for the past two hundred years, right up to the present moment isn’t the same as a few Vikings pillaging a monastery a thousand years ago. An obvious difference.

And if one looks at the power dynamics resulting from invasion and counter invasion, from serfdom through to low paid labour, are we happy to say everyone has escaped oppression? For sure we've got a certain amount of social mobility, but so have Native Americans

This sort of sophistry is kinda aggravating just FYI.

Luckily for me I'm supportive of a norm people can be offensive, otherwise I shudder to think how worried I'd have been