NPR

And, as sure as night follows day after Tory councils pissed away money losing over ULEZ in the Court, Sunak has jumped aboard the latest bandwagon to show he has any idea what an ordinary person's life is like and ordered a DOT review of LTNs.

Culture wars, wilful cruelty and wedge issues to scrabble for any fringe vote on the table. That's all they have left, there's certainly absolutely no evidence of competent running of the country.

Oh, and HS2 has been given an absolute pasting by the Infrastructure and Projects Authority (Government authority), deeming bits of it "unachievable" and other bits in serious danger of losing the paddle as they slowly make their way up one of our many delightfully clean waterways.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:32 am And, as sure as night follows day after Tory councils pissed away money losing over ULEZ in the Court, Sunak has jumped aboard the latest bandwagon to show he has any idea what an ordinary person's life is like and ordered a DOT review of LTNs.

Culture wars, wilful cruelty and wedge issues to scrabble for any fringe vote on the table. That's all they have left, there's certainly absolutely no evidence of competent running of the country.

Oh, and HS2 has been given an absolute pasting by the Infrastructure and Projects Authority (Government authority), deeming bits of it "unachievable" and other bits in serious danger of losing the paddle as they slowly make their way up one of our many delightfully clean waterways.

I saw Frost also saying something along the lines of Uxbridge showing the power of a single issue and if they want to win they need to respond to that.

It’s all about having the power, not doing anything good with the power, just having it. Cunts.

Ignorance is strength, and all that.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... l-britain/

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:28 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:32 am And, as sure as night follows day after Tory councils pissed away money losing over ULEZ in the Court, Sunak has jumped aboard the latest bandwagon to show he has any idea what an ordinary person's life is like and ordered a DOT review of LTNs.

Culture wars, wilful cruelty and wedge issues to scrabble for any fringe vote on the table. That's all they have left, there's certainly absolutely no evidence of competent running of the country.

Oh, and HS2 has been given an absolute pasting by the Infrastructure and Projects Authority (Government authority), deeming bits of it "unachievable" and other bits in serious danger of losing the paddle as they slowly make their way up one of our many delightfully clean waterways.

I saw Frost also saying something along the lines of Uxbridge showing the power of a single issue and if they want to win they need to respond to that.

It’s all about having the power, not doing anything good with the power, just having it. Cunts.

Democracy in action.

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:59 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:28 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:32 am And, as sure as night follows day after Tory councils pissed away money losing over ULEZ in the Court, Sunak has jumped aboard the latest bandwagon to show he has any idea what an ordinary person's life is like and ordered a DOT review of LTNs.

Culture wars, wilful cruelty and wedge issues to scrabble for any fringe vote on the table. That's all they have left, there's certainly absolutely no evidence of competent running of the country.

Oh, and HS2 has been given an absolute pasting by the Infrastructure and Projects Authority (Government authority), deeming bits of it "unachievable" and other bits in serious danger of losing the paddle as they slowly make their way up one of our many delightfully clean waterways.

I saw Frost also saying something along the lines of Uxbridge showing the power of a single issue and if they want to win they need to respond to that.

It’s all about having the power, not doing anything good with the power, just having it. Cunts.

Democracy in action.

Well yes, but I’m sure there used to be more of an inclination to use that power for the good of the nation and instigate long term plans. Maybe that’s just rose tinted, just seems far more short termism than before

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:17 pm

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:59 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:28 pm

I saw Frost also saying something along the lines of Uxbridge showing the power of a single issue and if they want to win they need to respond to that.

It’s all about having the power, not doing anything good with the power, just having it. Cunts.

Democracy in action.

Well yes, but I’m sure there used to be more of an inclination to use that power for the good of the nation and instigate long term plans. Maybe that’s just rose tinted, just seems far more short termism than before

I wonder how many think they would be affected by ULEZ so voted against Labour when they wouldn't be.

petej wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:46 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:17 pm

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:59 pm

Democracy in action.

Well yes, but I’m sure there used to be more of an inclination to use that power for the good of the nation and instigate long term plans. Maybe that’s just rose tinted, just seems far more short termism than before

I wonder how many think they would be affected by ULEZ so voted against Labour when they wouldn't be.

There has been endless coverage of what ULEZ is, direct mail to all affected and coverage in all forms of media since announcement of the expansion 9 months ago. I would say the number who think they are affected but are actually not is almost zero.

However, my own experience is that a significant number of the elderly are impacted but were somehow unaware, is pretty much the opposite.

10,000 student voters were also not around for the Uxbridge vote as it's vacations, I suspect most of the small.number of them who could be arsed to vote wouldn't have voted Tory.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:53 pm 10,000 student voters were also not around for the Uxbridge vote as it's vacations, I suspect most of the small.number of them who could be arsed to vote wouldn't have voted Tory.

I guess we will never know.

What we do know is that a) ULEZ is a highly divisive subject that for some people will be costly, and b) the benefits in air quality will take some time to be understood.

It is also a topic that may change voting intentions.

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:28 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:32 am And, as sure as night follows day after Tory councils pissed away money losing over ULEZ in the Court, Sunak has jumped aboard the latest bandwagon to show he has any idea what an ordinary person's life is like and ordered a DOT review of LTNs.

Culture wars, wilful cruelty and wedge issues to scrabble for any fringe vote on the table. That's all they have left, there's certainly absolutely no evidence of competent running of the country.

Oh, and HS2 has been given an absolute pasting by the Infrastructure and Projects Authority (Government authority), deeming bits of it "unachievable" and other bits in serious danger of losing the paddle as they slowly make their way up one of our many delightfully clean waterways.

I saw Frost also saying something along the lines of Uxbridge showing the power of a single issue and if they want to win they need to respond to that.

It’s all about having the power, not doing anything good with the power, just having it. Cunts.

I maintain that populism is even more dangerous than idealogy.

shaggy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 4:44 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:53 pm 10,000 student voters were also not around for the Uxbridge vote as it's vacations, I suspect most of the small.number of them who could be arsed to vote wouldn't have voted Tory.

I guess we will never know.

What we do know is that a) ULEZ is a highly divisive subject that for some people will be costly, and b) the benefits in air quality will take some time to be understood.

It is also a topic that may change voting intentions.

We also know it was initiated by Boris Johnson and Grant Shapps made the tfl funding deal conditional on ULEZ being implemented.

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:17 pm

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:59 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:28 pm

I saw Frost also saying something along the lines of Uxbridge showing the power of a single issue and if they want to win they need to respond to that.

It’s all about having the power, not doing anything good with the power, just having it. Cunts.

Democracy in action.

Well yes, but I’m sure there used to be more of an inclination to use that power for the good of the nation and instigate long term plans. Maybe that’s just rose tinted, just seems far more short termism than before

There’s plenty of long term planning - the tentacles of ESG are present across government departments. The re-organisation of society around the concept of ’subjective well-being’ has been long planned and is now endemic. One of the reasons everything feels more reactive these days is that ‘lived experience’ is now seen as something that can sway policy. It leads to an almost anti-scientific, reactive approach to many things across government.

Im afraid it’s gonna get a lot worse before it gets better.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:01 pm

shaggy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 4:44 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:53 pm 10,000 student voters were also not around for the Uxbridge vote as it's vacations, I suspect most of the small.number of them who could be arsed to vote wouldn't have voted Tory.

I guess we will never know.

What we do know is that a) ULEZ is a highly divisive subject that for some people will be costly, and b) the benefits in air quality will take some time to be understood.

It is also a topic that may change voting intentions.

We also know it was initiated by Boris Johnson and Grant Shapps made the tfl funding deal conditional on ULEZ being implemented.

Covered this before. The deal between government and the London Mayor is not explicit, you can read into it what you want from both directions, but for me the most definitive fact that it is not clearly an explicit condition is that Khan has not ever stated he had been told to do it by the government. And as someone who lives in London and hears Khan blaming the government for everything on an almost daily basis his total lack of stating this is forced upon him is very telling.

I just don't see Sadiq Khan could reasonably make the case the Tories want people to breathe cleaner air, one might as well try to argue Boris isn't a liar.

It's was specially Shapps who made it a condition of the post COVID bailout that Boris' ULEZ be expanded

https://t.co/KOwjrAFQbS

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 7:39 pm It's was specially Shapps who made it a condition of the post COVID bailout that Boris' ULEZ be expanded

https://t.co/KOwjrAFQbS

As above, you can read those conditions in different ways. If it was clear cut why has this not ever been mentioned by Khan, someone who loves blaming someone else for his decisions.

So, Sunak's first Big Green Announcement is confirming tons of oil and gas licenses, and another transfer of public money to the private sector in the form of millions to be wasted on the greenwash poster child, Carbon Capture.

TEnvironmental issues are just something that happens to other people for him.

+20mph is too high, let's kill more kids and then...

Hi, I'm Sunak and "I'm on the side of motorists".
No I won't lower the tax on fuel,
No I won't reduce VAT on fuel or car insurance,
No I won't touch road fund licence charge,
No I won't subsidise EV's or charging points,
but I can assure you I'm on the side of motorists.

Martin Geissler - How will you be getting up to Aberdeen to make this green announcement... private jet?

Rishi Sunak - "I'll be flying as I normally would... as every Prime Minister before me has used planes to travel around the UK... "

They never gave Gladstone so much shit for travelling around in a private jet

It's really baffling how any politician in 2023 can think that curbing of steering away from green policies is the way to go.

Climate change is very costly to the country, not promoting green policies is bad for the country's reputation, and the vast majority of voters want more action against climate change.

Anyone going into politics with the intention to do good would want to tackle climate change, wherever you may lay the balance between government, business and individual responsibility.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 8:04 am So, Sunak's first Big Green Announcement is confirming tons of oil and gas licenses, and another transfer of public money to the private sector in the form of millions to be wasted on the greenwash poster child, Carbon Capture.

TEnvironmental issues are just something that happens to other people for him.

It really is just about lining donor pockets at this point.

At the very fucking least let's stop giving the fossil fuel industry subsidies while it makes profit out the wazoo.

"Green's too expensive" compared to subsidised fossil fuels where no calculation is made for the increasing impact of climate change, perhaps.

salanya wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:16 am It's really baffling how any politician in 2023 can think that curbing of steering away from green policies is the way to go.

Climate change is very costly to the country, not promoting green policies is bad for the country's reputation, and the vast majority of voters want more action against climate change.

Anyone going into politics with the intention to do good would want to tackle climate change, wherever you may lay the balance between government, business and individual responsibility.

I have to agree - primary role of any Gov, regardless of colour, is to protect the population from harm. I suspect this current lot have forgot this?

The science is now pretty conclusive (it has been for some time) about global warming and climate change and what the likely outcomes are going to be, the speed and specifics are still unclear but if anything it looks like things are accelerating not slowing down. The recent stats about hottest day/month/year on record, fires burning across the Med and North America, flooding in Italy, etc is pretty scary. What any decent Gov should be doing is being clear about the scale and urgency of the problem and try to get some sort of cross party alliance and agreement, as we have had for wars and pandemics, around those actions that are just non-negotiable and get on with them asap. However I suspect our current Gov is either full of climate change deniers or is being held hostage by them, funded by dark oil money. Also there is now zero trust in the bunch of wankers that currently make up the cabinet even within their own party let alone the opposition so I cant see anyone willing to work alongside them. I am sure that many of the Tory bastards, sorry MPs, still believe Cameron was right with his "Green Crap' approach and even if they had seen the light, and the numerous scientific research papers, they couldn't possibly admit they were wrong and the woke, tofu eating, Guardian reading, socialist 'Stop the Oil' protestors were right all along. They will just dig the trenches deeper for the woke war to come ... dont look up!

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:34 am

salanya wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:16 am It's really baffling how any politician in 2023 can think that curbing of steering away from green policies is the way to go.

Climate change is very costly to the country, not promoting green policies is bad for the country's reputation, and the vast majority of voters want more action against climate change.

Anyone going into politics with the intention to do good would want to tackle climate change, wherever you may lay the balance between government, business and individual responsibility.

I have to agree - primary role of any Gov, regardless of colour, is to protect the population from harm. I suspect this current lot have forgot this?

The science is now pretty conclusive (it has been for some time) about global warming and climate change and what the likely outcomes are going to be, the speed and specifics are still unclear but if anything it looks like things are accelerating not slowing down. The recent stats about hottest day/month/year on record, fires burning across the Med and North America, flooding in Italy, etc is pretty scary. What any decent Gov should be doing is being clear about the scale and urgency of the problem and try to get some sort of cross party alliance and agreement, as we have had for wars and pandemics, around those actions that are just non-negotiable and get on with them asap. However I suspect our current Gov is either full of climate change deniers or is being held hostage by them, funded by dark oil money. Also there is now zero trust in the bunch of wankers that currently make up the cabinet even within their own party let alone the opposition so I cant see anyone willing to work alongside them. I am sure that many of the Tory bastards, sorry MPs, still believe Cameron was right with his "Green Crap' approach and even if they had seen the light, and the numerous scientific research papers, they couldn't possibly admit they were wrong and the woke, tofu eating, Guardian reading, socialist 'Stop the Oil' protestors were right all along. They will just dig the trenches deeper for the woke war to come ... dont look up!

I think there's a few other factors at work, a key one being the mindset of 'why should we do this when it's China/India etc etc currently making most of the mess'

Even in this flawed context, a forward-thinking person might have concluded that being a global incubator for green technology would be a Very Good Thing.

Sunak's very brief interview on Radio Scotland this morning was tetchy and condescending to say the least.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:01 am +20mph is too high, let's kill more kids and then...

Hi, I'm Sunak and "I'm on the side of motorists".
No I won't lower the tax on fuel,
No I won't reduce VAT on fuel or car insurance,
No I won't touch road fund licence charge,
No I won't subsidise EV's or charging points,
but I can assure you I'm on the side of motorists.

Martin Geissler - How will you be getting up to Aberdeen to make this green announcement... private jet?

Rishi Sunak - "I'll be flying as I normally would... as every Prime Minister before me has used planes to travel around the UK... "

He really is thin skinned when it comes to his travel arrangements I'm sure no one begrudges his use of a plane to get to Aberdeen from London.
At least it wasn't the helicopter provided by one the Tory party donors that he has at his beck and call for journeys of more than an hour outside London!!!

inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:48 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:34 am

salanya wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:16 am It's really baffling how any politician in 2023 can think that curbing of steering away from green policies is the way to go.

Climate change is very costly to the country, not promoting green policies is bad for the country's reputation, and the vast majority of voters want more action against climate change.

Anyone going into politics with the intention to do good would want to tackle climate change, wherever you may lay the balance between government, business and individual responsibility.

I have to agree - primary role of any Gov, regardless of colour, is to protect the population from harm. I suspect this current lot have forgot this?

The science is now pretty conclusive (it has been for some time) about global warming and climate change and what the likely outcomes are going to be, the speed and specifics are still unclear but if anything it looks like things are accelerating not slowing down. The recent stats about hottest day/month/year on record, fires burning across the Med and North America, flooding in Italy, etc is pretty scary. What any decent Gov should be doing is being clear about the scale and urgency of the problem and try to get some sort of cross party alliance and agreement, as we have had for wars and pandemics, around those actions that are just non-negotiable and get on with them asap. However I suspect our current Gov is either full of climate change deniers or is being held hostage by them, funded by dark oil money. Also there is now zero trust in the bunch of wankers that currently make up the cabinet even within their own party let alone the opposition so I cant see anyone willing to work alongside them. I am sure that many of the Tory bastards, sorry MPs, still believe Cameron was right with his "Green Crap' approach and even if they had seen the light, and the numerous scientific research papers, they couldn't possibly admit they were wrong and the woke, tofu eating, Guardian reading, socialist 'Stop the Oil' protestors were right all along. They will just dig the trenches deeper for the woke war to come ... dont look up!

I think there's a few other factors at work, a key one being the mindset of 'why should we do this when it's China/India etc etc currently making most of the mess'

Even in this flawed context, a forward-thinking person might have concluded that being a global incubator for green technology would be a Very Good Thing.

I'd like to see the stats that tend to be shown on carbon emissions by country at least have alongside it the consumer country as well as the producer country.

Gut feel suggests that if we looked by consumer rather that producer that it would tell a different picture.

inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:48 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:34 am

salanya wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:16 am It's really baffling how any politician in 2023 can think that curbing of steering away from green policies is the way to go.

Climate change is very costly to the country, not promoting green policies is bad for the country's reputation, and the vast majority of voters want more action against climate change.

Anyone going into politics with the intention to do good would want to tackle climate change, wherever you may lay the balance between government, business and individual responsibility.

I have to agree - primary role of any Gov, regardless of colour, is to protect the population from harm. I suspect this current lot have forgot this?

The science is now pretty conclusive (it has been for some time) about global warming and climate change and what the likely outcomes are going to be, the speed and specifics are still unclear but if anything it looks like things are accelerating not slowing down. The recent stats about hottest day/month/year on record, fires burning across the Med and North America, flooding in Italy, etc is pretty scary. What any decent Gov should be doing is being clear about the scale and urgency of the problem and try to get some sort of cross party alliance and agreement, as we have had for wars and pandemics, around those actions that are just non-negotiable and get on with them asap. However I suspect our current Gov is either full of climate change deniers or is being held hostage by them, funded by dark oil money. Also there is now zero trust in the bunch of wankers that currently make up the cabinet even within their own party let alone the opposition so I cant see anyone willing to work alongside them. I am sure that many of the Tory bastards, sorry MPs, still believe Cameron was right with his "Green Crap' approach and even if they had seen the light, and the numerous scientific research papers, they couldn't possibly admit they were wrong and the woke, tofu eating, Guardian reading, socialist 'Stop the Oil' protestors were right all along. They will just dig the trenches deeper for the woke war to come ... dont look up!

I think there's a few other factors at work, a key one being the mindset of 'why should we do this when it's China/India etc etc currently making most of the mess'

Even in this flawed context, a forward-thinking person might have concluded that being a global incubator for green technology would be a Very Good Thing.

Agreed! For a country proud of its history in driving the Industrial Revolution and being leaders in inventions and innovations we seem ideally placed scientifically and geographically to lead again in green technologies and hitting net zero asap then selling our technology around the world. I thought post Brexit we were going to be global leaders? Seems like we aren't at the top table influencing the big boys?

C T wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:55 am

inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:48 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:34 am

I have to agree - primary role of any Gov, regardless of colour, is to protect the population from harm. I suspect this current lot have forgot this?

The science is now pretty conclusive (it has been for some time) about global warming and climate change and what the likely outcomes are going to be, the speed and specifics are still unclear but if anything it looks like things are accelerating not slowing down. The recent stats about hottest day/month/year on record, fires burning across the Med and North America, flooding in Italy, etc is pretty scary. What any decent Gov should be doing is being clear about the scale and urgency of the problem and try to get some sort of cross party alliance and agreement, as we have had for wars and pandemics, around those actions that are just non-negotiable and get on with them asap. However I suspect our current Gov is either full of climate change deniers or is being held hostage by them, funded by dark oil money. Also there is now zero trust in the bunch of wankers that currently make up the cabinet even within their own party let alone the opposition so I cant see anyone willing to work alongside them. I am sure that many of the Tory bastards, sorry MPs, still believe Cameron was right with his "Green Crap' approach and even if they had seen the light, and the numerous scientific research papers, they couldn't possibly admit they were wrong and the woke, tofu eating, Guardian reading, socialist 'Stop the Oil' protestors were right all along. They will just dig the trenches deeper for the woke war to come ... dont look up!

I think there's a few other factors at work, a key one being the mindset of 'why should we do this when it's China/India etc etc currently making most of the mess'

Even in this flawed context, a forward-thinking person might have concluded that being a global incubator for green technology would be a Very Good Thing.

I'd like to see the stats that tend to be shown on carbon emissions by country at least have alongside it the consumer country as well as the producer country.

Gut feel suggests that if we looked by consumer rather that producer that it would tell a different picture.

Agreed also need to see carbon emissions per capita in each country. Also be interesting to see Sunaks carbon footprint - heating private swimming pools cant be that green?

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 10:02 am

C T wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:55 am

inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:48 am

I think there's a few other factors at work, a key one being the mindset of 'why should we do this when it's China/India etc etc currently making most of the mess'

Even in this flawed context, a forward-thinking person might have concluded that being a global incubator for green technology would be a Very Good Thing.

I'd like to see the stats that tend to be shown on carbon emissions by country at least have alongside it the consumer country as well as the producer country.

Gut feel suggests that if we looked by consumer rather that producer that it would tell a different picture.

Agreed also need to see carbon emissions per capita in each country. Also be interesting to see Sunaks carbon footprint - heating private swimming pools cant be that green?

Also need to see figures that are based on per capita consumption, not production. i.e. the figure needs to be based on the carbon produced by the products and services you use, to avoid offshoring your carbon emissions.

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:50 am Sunak's very brief interview on Radio Scotland this morning was tetchy and condescending to say the least.

That's the default for all these fucks when the person interviewing does anything other than brown nose or throw softballs. They're so used to getting their own way that when challenged, however mildly, they can't stand it.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 10:15 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:50 am Sunak's very brief interview on Radio Scotland this morning was tetchy and condescending to say the least.

That's the default for all these fucks when the person interviewing does anything other than brown nose or throw softballs. They're so used to getting their own way that when challenged, however mildly, they can't stand it.

Yeah, and there's also the 'uppity jocks' overtones when they're being interviewed by BBC Scotland or STV.

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 10:23 am

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 10:15 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:50 am Sunak's very brief interview on Radio Scotland this morning was tetchy and condescending to say the least.

That's the default for all these fucks when the person interviewing does anything other than brown nose or throw softballs. They're so used to getting their own way that when challenged, however mildly, they can't stand it.

Yeah, and there's also the 'uppity jocks' overtones when they're being interviewed by BBC Scotland or STV.

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 11:29 am The Prime Minister of Engalnd can't get on coach with you plebs. Honestly he can't. Explaining that shouldn't be so hard

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 11:29 am The Prime Minister of Engalnd can't get on coach with you plebs. Honestly he can't. Explaining that shouldn't be so hard

And it might be another 40 years before a Tory PM gets the photo op of a trip in HS2

There's a few moving parts with the Tory's approach to green issues.

1. Sunak personally thinks climate issues are bullshit, I have seen something that looked like a reliable source stating this (cannot remember where). All his personal choices point to that, the helicopter rides and the heated pool. Sunak has also decided to go big on the culture war stuff as an election ploy (when his whole image was the non-culture war guy, someone capable of appealing to middle ground voters). Attacking green issues is probably more comfortable for him than other culture war issues. Sunak is perusing a 25% strategy, the Tories are aiming for their core vote and hoping to limit the damage and get lucky.

The first problem they have, is unlike Labour the Tory spread of their voters is thinner/more optimised. Labour support is uneven (some constituencies have overwhelming Labour support, others none) making it harder for Labour to get majorities but also making it harder to go below 200-ish seats/about a third. Tory support is much less lumpy than Labour's making it easier for the Tories to get a majority, but much more easy for them to be wiped out. MRP polling is consistently showing that for the Tories 25% of the vote means about 100 seats (basically the worst ever Tory electoral performance).

The second problem for them, is Sunak is precisely the wrong person to be driving this campaign. The people they're trying to convince are people that put politely "express high in group preference", Sunak could say all the stuff their core voters want to hear, and many of them still would not vote and/or demand Truss or Big Dog return.

2. Oil companies have captured UK policy on oil. During this period of Tory rule the UK has paid oil companies north of £250b. On some numbers the oil companies took more subsidies than they paid in tax. The low tax and no state ownership model that started under Thatcher is a failure. Then all the profit goes into tax cuts rather than investment and becomes a double failure. The Norway model of a high tax and high state ownership with investment of profit into a sovereign wealth fund, has proved itself superior. Norway has extracted about the same amount of oil as the UK, but the value to Norway has been x3 compared to the UK (gained more though tax, and has direct financial interest through state ownership which the UK doesn't have).

The Tories are ideologically committed to Thatcherism/neoliberalism, but so are Labour when they get power. Which means this model never changes. The level of incentive the UK gives to large corporations is ridiculous, there's been four decades of a huge underselling of the UK's position (it's not in a region where some huge crazy war could destroy oil production 10 years from now).

3. The EU's Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism (CBAM) is coming in 2026. This will put tariffs on goods linked to the carbon that went into their manufacture, at the same time the EU are spending 1 trillion euros on the European Green Deal. That's the direction of travel of the UK's biggest trade partner, a tariff regime linked to carbon whilst they're decarbonising their power grid. I don't know how all that would interact with the TCA but unless the UK is running on green power, it's looking like eventually the UK will either need its own CBAM compliant framework (on my understanding keeping green taxes in the UK), or pay EU green tariffs. For the UK (which cannot compete with the EU on price), this really means become completely green (which includes turning off gas power stations) or do not export any goods to the EU.

The US is also rolling out a huge green programme, which I know less about. But the US does surprisingly little trade with the world, outside of Canada/US/Mexico almost nothing at all. It'll be a no brainer for them to implement their own carbon tariffs.

All this stuff takes planning and at least a decade of implementation. If the UK gets to the 2030s and finds the EU and US are significantly greener whilst the UK is not, and there's carbon tariffs in place, then that's the end of UK goods exports.

... This whole thing reminds me a lot of Truss and Kwarteng, who thought they knew what business and the market wanted (having never run a business), until they blew everything up because the market told them "no". Not much evidence the market is going to want a super abundance of hydrocarbons, they cannot see this because they think the market is self regulating and government has no role.

A lot of it stems, once again, from gutless Cameron appeased and ballsed it up (onshore wind, fracking, cut the green crap) rather than confronting the issue, and the associated wingnuts in his Party. A man who literally ran away at the end of statements to the Press rather than take questions.

The Great Stink is a good parallel, that eventually got solved when the Houses of Parliament were overwhelmed by it. So when PMQS is conducted in galoshes, we might get some political leadership on the issue.

Although the real answer, and it's already starting to happen, is when the insurance industry gets it's teeth into the issue. Once the underwriters start to review cover and deem certain industries and activities bad risks, the writing will be on the wall.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 11:57 am A lot of it stems, once again, from gutless Cameron appeased and ballsed it up (onshore wind, fracking, cut the green crap) rather than confronting the issue, and the associated wingnuts in his Party. A man who literally ran away at the end of statements to the Press rather than take questions.

The Great Stink is a good parallel, that eventually got solved when the Houses of Parliament were overwhelmed by it. So when PMQS is conducted in galoshes, we might get some political leadership on the issue.

Although the real answer, and it's already starting to happen, is when the insurance industry gets it's teeth into the issue. Once the underwriters start to review cover and deem certain industries and activities bad risks, the writing will be on the wall.

We're already seeing banks considering environmental factors such as flood risk within their lending decisions, and although it's a relatively minor factor at present you'd hope for changes to behaviour once fingers start getting badly burnt.

You may detest the Prime Minister and the party but the idea they shouldn't use VIP transport when on official business is nuts.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 11:57 am A lot of it stems, once again, from gutless Cameron appeased and ballsed it up (onshore wind, fracking, cut the green crap) rather than confronting the issue, and the associated wingnuts in his Party. A man who literally ran away at the end of statements to the Press rather than take questions.

The Great Stink is a good parallel, that eventually got solved when the Houses of Parliament were overwhelmed by it. So when PMQS is conducted in galoshes, we might get some political leadership on the issue.

Although the real answer, and it's already starting to happen, is when the insurance industry gets it's teeth into the issue. Once the underwriters start to review cover and deem certain industries and activities bad risks, the writing will be on the wall.

The negatives for the UK aren't too bad, the worst cases are a lot colder and drier. Frost is a moron but wasn't entirely wrong, climate change has a smaller impact on the UK than elsewhere.

The thing that isn't being factored into the UK's discussion is my point 3 in the above post. It doesn't really matter what the impact to the UK is, the places the UK trades with have made up their mind, so the choice ends up being go with them or become poorer.