NPR

average joe wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 9:05 am So, my understanding is that they've been missing since Monday? What's the chances they're still alive?

average joe wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 9:31 am I'm asking because the headlines this morning said they're doubling search efforts in fear that they might be running out of oxygen. My thinking was that surly they would have run out a while ago.

So, the search now is to retrieve bodies and some expensive equipment.

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 9:51 am

average joe wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 9:31 am I'm asking because the headlines this morning said they're doubling search efforts in fear that they might be running out of oxygen. My thinking was that surly they would have run out a while ago.

So, the search now is to retrieve bodies and some expensive equipment.

I have this funny feeling that the Governments aren't doing much, because the US established, very quickly, that it imploded, but doesn't want to show how good SOSUS is. Hence the US just had a quiet word with Canada, & they both are just going thru the motions.

If there was an explosive decompression there won't even be any bodies to recover, & any recovery is going to be very slow, because the only vessels that can go that deep are limited, & I think this is another reason why experts thought they were dead whatever, because 96 hours just isn't enough time to find the thing, get everything in place, get down to it, hook it up, & bring it safely to the surface.

shaggy wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 11:21 am

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 9:51 am

average joe wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 9:31 am I'm asking because the headlines this morning said they're doubling search efforts in fear that they might be running out of oxygen. My thinking was that surly they would have run out a while ago.

So, the search now is to retrieve bodies and some expensive equipment.

I have this funny feeling that the Governments aren't doing much, because the US established, very quickly, that it imploded, but doesn't want to show how good SOSUS is. Hence the US just had a quiet word with Canada, & they both are just going thru the motions.

If there was an explosive decompression there won't even be any bodies to recover, & any recovery is going to be very slow, because the only vessels that can go that deep are limited, & I think this is another reason why experts thought they were dead whatever, because 96 hours just isn't enough time to find the thing, get everything in place, get down to it, hook it up, & bring it safely to the surface.

Had a very peripheral role in the Kursk recovery, which redefined what was possible in the submersible recovery space, but the signs are as bad here. Don’t think the governments are acting in bad faith at all, they are following the military Incident Command framework and always have a desired outcome of success

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 3:54 pm

shaggy wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 11:21 am

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 9:51 am

I have this funny feeling that the Governments aren't doing much, because the US established, very quickly, that it imploded, but doesn't want to show how good SOSUS is. Hence the US just had a quiet word with Canada, & they both are just going thru the motions.

If there was an explosive decompression there won't even be any bodies to recover, & any recovery is going to be very slow, because the only vessels that can go that deep are limited, & I think this is another reason why experts thought they were dead whatever, because 96 hours just isn't enough time to find the thing, get everything in place, get down to it, hook it up, & bring it safely to the surface.

Had a very peripheral role in the Kursk recovery, which redefined what was possible in the submersible recovery space, but the signs are as bad here. Don’t think the governments are acting in bad faith at all, they are following the military Incident Command framework and always have a desired outcome of success

I don't think its really bad faith, but I think they have the experience & information to take a pragmatic line on the feasibility of any rescue.

The more I hear about this submersible, the more I'm amazed that anyone who did due diligence would get inside it !

This was only it's 3rd/4th trip down to the Titanic !!!

Blackmac wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 4:09 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 3:54 pm

shaggy wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 11:21 am

Had a very peripheral role in the Kursk recovery, which redefined what was possible in the submersible recovery space, but the signs are as bad here. Don’t think the governments are acting in bad faith at all, they are following the military Incident Command framework and always have a desired outcome of success

I don't think its really bad faith, but I think they have the experience & information to take a pragmatic line on the feasibility of any rescue.

The more I hear about this submersible, the more I'm amazed that anyone who did due diligence would get inside it !

This was only it's 3rd/4th trip down to the Titanic !!!

I see they have found a debris field, so presumably a catastrophic implosion. The more you hear the back story of that death trap it has all the hallmarks of 5 ridiculously expensive Darwin Awards.

Slick wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 9:57 am Aussie types, is there still a lot of fall out going on from the PWC being cunts thing?

My BiL is a partner there and is seriously worried about the whole operation getting closed down.

FYI - https://www.afr.com/companies/professio ... 622-p5dip8

tabascoboy wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 4:33 pm

Blackmac wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 4:09 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 3:54 pm

I don't think its really bad faith, but I think they have the experience & information to take a pragmatic line on the feasibility of any rescue.

The more I hear about this submersible, the more I'm amazed that anyone who did due diligence would get inside it !

This was only it's 3rd/4th trip down to the Titanic !!!

I see they have found a debris field, so presumably a catastrophic implosion. The more you hear the back story of that death trap it has all the hallmarks of 5 ridiculously expensive Darwin Awards.

Unfortunately yes, it does appear that the tourists, presumably intelligent people, should have been very well aware of the risks involved but possibly swayed by false claims of safety and emergency action and recovery in the quest for adventure. From what I read, not a great deal is known about deep ocean currents so that if it becomes powerless in the depths it could drift almost anywhere, hence the near impossibility of locating it (especially when the comms seem to have been another part of the cowboy job).

It's going to get ugly for this company as I'm sure families of the victims won't just let this pass, and then you have the cost of the attempted search and recovery).

I know we supposed to be enthusiastic about "enterprise" but more and more it seems like this was a total disaster in waiting.

Guy Smiley wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 4:35 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 9:57 am Aussie types, is there still a lot of fall out going on from the PWC being cunts thing?

My BiL is a partner there and is seriously worried about the whole operation getting closed down.

FYI - https://www.afr.com/companies/professio ... 622-p5dip8

I moved back to NZ a few years back but I still follow Aus politics... this is massive. Going by the reporting I've read it's got the potential to threaten the widespread use of consultants generally and something of a return to a larger public service with in house capacity for the work.

The current Labor government campaigned strongly on setting up a Federal Independent Commission Against Corruption. State based ICAC's have proven highly successful in rooting out political corruption and there's a strong appetite for the same at Federal level... the PwC scandal ties into that appetite and comes hot on the heels of widespread resentment at inequality post Covid which has seen the sadly usual rise of corporate profits while living standards and cost of living are hurting badly... PwC will be seen (quite rightly) as the representation of that corporate greed that has become so rudely obvious to anyone with half an eye on the world.

Australians like the idea of everyone paying their share of taxes, even if they hate paying them personally. To see PwC so actively involved in undermining the tax system from within....? holy fuck, pitchfork sales will be through the roof.

Slick wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 4:53 pm It’s such a momentous piece of news that I’m surprised we haven’t seen more of it over here.

'Landing frame and a rear cover from the submersible' among the debris

We have just had an update from dive expert David Mearns, who says the debris includes "a landing frame and a rear cover from the submersible".

Mearns is a friend of passengers aboard the Titan.

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 7:44 pm Which will happen first; the Memorial service for the deceased, or OceanGate filing for Chapter 11 ?

One things for sure, the cost of insurance for this kind of jaunt has just got a lot more expensive, & probably prohibitive for everything but the touristy gigs showing passengers the likes of offshore reefs, that never go below 10m

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 7:44 pm Which will happen first; the Memorial service for the deceased, or OceanGate filing for Chapter 11 ?

One things for sure, the cost of insurance for this kind of jaunt has just got a lot more expensive, & probably prohibitive for everything but the touristy gigs showing passengers the likes of offshore reefs, that never go below 10m

Sandstorm wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 8:04 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 7:44 pm Which will happen first; the Memorial service for the deceased, or OceanGate filing for Chapter 11 ?

One things for sure, the cost of insurance for this kind of jaunt has just got a lot more expensive, & probably prohibitive for everything but the touristy gigs showing passengers the likes of offshore reefs, that never go below 10m

Virgin starts flying tourists into space next year.

tabascoboy wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 8:13 pm Some small consolation if better knowledge than mine is accurate is that the fatal implosion would have been near instantaneous and so those on board avoided the terror of slowly running out of oxygen.

Niegs wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 8:46 pm I know it sounds crazy, but I want to see this as a live comedy sketch. (Read the back cover.)

Grandpa wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 9:07 pm

Niegs wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 8:46 pm I know it sounds crazy, but I want to see this as a live comedy sketch. (Read the back cover.)

That's just not right...

The US Navy detected sounds "consistent with an implosion" shortly after OceanGate's Titan submersible lost contact, a navy official has said.

Five people were aboard the vessel when it went missing during a dive to the Titanic wreck on Sunday.

The loss of the sub was confirmed on Thursday after a huge search mission.

The official told CBS News their information about the "acoustic anomaly" had been used by the US Coast Guard to narrow the search area.

...

fishfoodie wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 11:33 pm

The US Navy detected sounds "consistent with an implosion" shortly after OceanGate's Titan submersible lost contact, a navy official has said.

Five people were aboard the vessel when it went missing during a dive to the Titanic wreck on Sunday.

The loss of the sub was confirmed on Thursday after a huge search mission.

The official told CBS News their information about the "acoustic anomaly" had been used by the US Coast Guard to narrow the search area.

...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65994405

Guy Smiley wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 5:01 pm

Slick wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 4:53 pm It’s such a momentous piece of news that I’m surprised we haven’t seen more of it over here.

I feel for the BiL, it wouldn't be a nice place to be right now. I had a mate years back who worked for MacQuarie... he put in huge hours, spent weeks away from the family working on 'projects' that can't have sat well with our free radical beers and sport social habits. It ended up costing him the marriage. Soul destroying corporations are a real thing.

It is a huge story and I wonder just how far it will run. Political will to effect change is lacking in Australia... I don't think it'll blow over but it might not end up a nuclear catastrophe.

...tourist subs, which could once be skippered by anyone with a U.S. Coast Guard captain’s license, were regulated by the Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993, which imposed rigorous new manufacturing and inspection requirements and prohibited dives below 150 feet. The law was well-meaning, Rush says, but he believes it needlessly prioritized passenger safety over commercial innovation (a position a less adventurous submariner might find open to debate). “There hasn’t been an injury in the commercial sub industry in over 35 years. It’s obscenely safe, because they have all these regulations. But it also hasn’t innovated or grown—because they have all these regulations.”

It comes after a former employee of the missing Titan submersible operator has revealed he had raised "safety concerns" over the vessel but was reportedly "met with hostility" before later being sacked, according to court documents.

OceanGate's former director of marine operations, David Lochridge, had raised concerns over "safety and quality control issues regarding the Titan to OceanGate executive management", according to the filings.

In the August 2018 court document, it claims chief executive and founder of OceanGate Expeditions Stockton Rush, asked Mr Lochridge to conduct a "quality inspection" report on the vessel following the "issues of quality control".

Mr Lochridge "identified numerous issues that posed serious safety concerns" but he was reportedly "met with hostility and denial of access" to necessary documents.
d.

The court filing claims he was worried about a "lack of non-destructive testing performed on the hull of the Titan", and that he "stressed the potential danger to passengers of the Titan as the submersible reached extreme depths".

Mr Lochridge was later fired from the company, wrongfully he claims.

tabascoboy wrote: Fri Jun 23, 2023 6:18 am There was reportedly a waiver with 3 seperate clauses in the T&C for passengers relating to "in the event of death"

Waivers may not shield OceanGate from lawsuits - legal experts
Liability waivers signed by the five men on board the Titan may not shield OceanGate from potential lawsuits by their families, US legal experts tell Reuters news agency.

"If there were aspects of the design or construction of this vessel that were kept from the passengers or it was knowingly operated despite information that it was not suitable for this dive, that would absolutely go against the validity of the waiver," personal injury lawyer and maritime law expert Matthew Shaffer says.

Joseph Low, a personal injury lawyer from California, says: "There are so many different examples of what families might still have claims for despite the waivers, but until we know the cause we can't determine whether the waivers apply."

David Pogue, a reporter from CBS News, the BBC's partner in the US, made the trip with OceanGate last year and reported that the waiver he signed mentioned the possibility of death three times on the first page.

OceanGate could argue it was not grossly negligent and that the waivers apply because they fully described the inherent dangers of the dive, Reuters reports.

The degree of any potential negligence and how that might impact the applicability of the waivers will depend on the causes of the disaster, which are still under investigation.

The BBC has been looking into the legal claims and we are hoping to bring you more later.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-u ... a-65967464

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:35 am I see the tories and their press are continuing its campaign against the terrible modern woke scourge of working from home - last week it was causing hosepipe bans, this week it's adding to benefit bills because people have joint pain from sitting at uncomfortable desks.

No mention of course that the claims of reduced productivity from WFH have been debunked.

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:35 am I see the tories and their press are continuing its campaign against the terrible modern woke scourge of working from home - last week it was causing hosepipe bans, this week it's adding to benefit bills because people have joint pain from sitting at uncomfortable desks.

No mention of course that the claims of reduced productivity from WFH have been debunked.

inactionman wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:25 am

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:35 am I see the tories and their press are continuing its campaign against the terrible modern woke scourge of working from home - last week it was causing hosepipe bans, this week it's adding to benefit bills because people have joint pain from sitting at uncomfortable desks.

No mention of course that the claims of reduced productivity from WFH have been debunked.

I've not much to comment on the broader WFH arguments, but I would say I've had a load more back pain and eyesight issues since working at home became more or less permanent.

That's more a problem of hosting multiple, consecutive meetings via zoom than of physical locale or environment. There are days where I won't get up from my desk for three hours, or look further than my monitor - at least in an office I'd have had to get my lazy arse up to walk to the meeting room.

I think it's worth considering that working from home may not actually be that good for your health.

inactionman wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:25 am

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:35 am I see the tories and their press are continuing its campaign against the terrible modern woke scourge of working from home - last week it was causing hosepipe bans, this week it's adding to benefit bills because people have joint pain from sitting at uncomfortable desks.

No mention of course that the claims of reduced productivity from WFH have been debunked.

I've not much to comment on the broader WFH arguments, but I would say I've had a load more back pain and eyesight issues since working at home became more or less permanent.

That's more a problem of hosting multiple, consecutive meetings via zoom than of physical locale or environment. There are days where I won't get up from my desk for three hours, or look further than my monitor - at least in an office I'd have had to get my lazy arse up to walk to the meeting room.

I think it's worth considering that working from home may not actually be that good for your health.

inactionman wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:25 am

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:35 am I see the tories and their press are continuing its campaign against the terrible modern woke scourge of working from home - last week it was causing hosepipe bans, this week it's adding to benefit bills because people have joint pain from sitting at uncomfortable desks.

No mention of course that the claims of reduced productivity from WFH have been debunked.

I've not much to comment on the broader WFH arguments, but I would say I've had a load more back pain and eyesight issues since working at home became more or less permanent.

That's more a problem of hosting multiple, consecutive meetings via zoom than of physical locale or environment. There are days where I won't get up from my desk for three hours, or look further than my monitor - at least in an office I'd have had to get my lazy arse up to walk to the meeting room.

I think it's worth considering that working from home may not actually be that good for your health.

fishfoodie wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:35 am

inactionman wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:25 am

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:35 am I see the tories and their press are continuing its campaign against the terrible modern woke scourge of working from home - last week it was causing hosepipe bans, this week it's adding to benefit bills because people have joint pain from sitting at uncomfortable desks.

No mention of course that the claims of reduced productivity from WFH have been debunked.

I've not much to comment on the broader WFH arguments, but I would say I've had a load more back pain and eyesight issues since working at home became more or less permanent.

That's more a problem of hosting multiple, consecutive meetings via zoom than of physical locale or environment. There are days where I won't get up from my desk for three hours, or look further than my monitor - at least in an office I'd have had to get my lazy arse up to walk to the meeting room.

I think it's worth considering that working from home may not actually be that good for your health.

Micro-Breaks !

You probably used to get them naturally in office, by someone dropping by & asking a question, or getting up to get a cuppa or whatever. At home you need to introduce them yourself, like one an hour, so you aren't just stuck in the same position.

I get up & put on the washing, or hang it out, or do some prep for the next meal etc.

I wasn't sold on the 50 min meeting, but its a good idea when you have that 3hr block of them with the US, or where ever.

Raggs wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:35 am

inactionman wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:25 am

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:35 am I see the tories and their press are continuing its campaign against the terrible modern woke scourge of working from home - last week it was causing hosepipe bans, this week it's adding to benefit bills because people have joint pain from sitting at uncomfortable desks.

No mention of course that the claims of reduced productivity from WFH have been debunked.

I've not much to comment on the broader WFH arguments, but I would say I've had a load more back pain and eyesight issues since working at home became more or less permanent.

That's more a problem of hosting multiple, consecutive meetings via zoom than of physical locale or environment. There are days where I won't get up from my desk for three hours, or look further than my monitor - at least in an office I'd have had to get my lazy arse up to walk to the meeting room.

I think it's worth considering that working from home may not actually be that good for your health.

This all sounds like things that could have easily been avoided by you though, and not everyone in an office has meetings etc to get them up.