A place where escape goats go to play
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Fans do care about performances and entertainment! There's a lot of disgruntlement even from random people on social media, commentators, etc.Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 pm It’s not the rugby, mate, it’s the results. Fans rarely complain about the quality of the rugby as long as their team is winning. Not saying never, but you’d struggle to find a Welshman complaining about Gatlandball when he was their coach.
Edit: this was obviously a response to JK2, but now there’s a post in between and we’re on a different page, which means it doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Watch up until the Taylor yellow, it's really good. Then switch off.Northern Lights wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:11 pm Didn’t watch as I was busy when it was live, so the result and have popped on here to see the verdict.
Won’t be wasting my time watching it now!
Just seen that of the 15 that finished the match on Saturday only 4 were born in Scotland. That is not good enough.Slick wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:10 pmYeah, my comment is a bit harsh on guys like Maitland and the truth is if other much bigger nations do it we HAVE to do it. Think we have probably reached our polite limit on Saffers though..I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:14 pmAt least Thomson was noticeable in the huddle!Slick wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:21 am Thought Jaco did well yesterday - hate to say it but definitely a step up from Weir. He bounced back well from a couple of early mistakes and it was great to see how much he wanted to be involved the whole game.
In saying that, I looked at the team huddle after the game and saw Blade, Blair, Maitland, Jaco, Van der, Kebble etc and I couldn’t help wondering if I really wanted my team to look like that.
I agree vdw was good. And I agree about the other point. But fair play to Maitland at 50 caps. I don't mind the foreign born players who come in and give it a real go. Nel, Visser, VdM will probably go down as Edinburgh rugby legends so who really cares where they came from. I also never minded Cowan but I'll never understand why he played yesterday instead of say Crosbie or Gordon. And I'll never understand how Thomson gets in. Kebble and Schoeman seem like good guys but I'm glad the criteria has been increased.
Yes, quite. Whether the fact of where they are from bothers you or not it is not a great advert for player development here.I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:32 pm 4 points to some real issues though. Granted stats aren't perfect as Jones was born in Scotland but left sharpish whereas SHC was born in Spain and moved here. And the reality is there's significant movement between England and Scotland. But it's a concerning number nevertheless.
Kebble, Nel, Thomson, Cowan, SHC (but again was born in Spain and schooled in Edinburgh), Van Der Walt, van Der Merwe, Maitland. So 4 on residency and 3 grandparents from further afield than England.
This is the rugby equivalent of white privilege.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:15 pmFans do care about performances and entertainment! There's a lot of disgruntlement even from random people on social media, commentators, etc.Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 pm It’s not the rugby, mate, it’s the results. Fans rarely complain about the quality of the rugby as long as their team is winning. Not saying never, but you’d struggle to find a Welshman complaining about Gatlandball when he was their coach.
Edit: this was obviously a response to JK2, but now there’s a post in between and we’re on a different page, which means it doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Gatlandball won them matches even against "on paper" stronger teams. Eddie's approach is narrowing the gap between us and weaker teams.
Not sure how many fans care about this Mickey mouse tournament though.
Stacked with hyped talent. I think there have been seven or eight next Johnny Sextons up until this point. None of them have panned out that way. They have good players coming through but nobody of the class of Sexton, OkMahoney, Woods, O’Driscoll, O’Connell etc. Their great players are being replaced by good ones.I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:45 pmTheir provinces are stacked with unreal talent. Ireland are going to be very good for a long time.
Don't agree. Leinster are unplayable with their second team, Munster and Ulster up there competing. Connacht very good. A lot of very good players in Ireland.Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:51 pmStacked with hyped talent. I think there have been seven or eight next Johnny Sextons up until this point. None of them have panned out that way. They have good players coming through but nobody of the class of Sexton, OkMahoney, Woods, O’Driscoll, O’Connell etc. Their great players are being replaced by good ones.I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:45 pmTheir provinces are stacked with unreal talent. Ireland are going to be very good for a long time.
They're doing pretty well without Wood, BoD, O'Connell et al aren't they. Leinster are close to unbeatable. Ulster and Munster back up to competing at the top of the Pro14 and qualify in Europe. Very good teams full of very good players. They'll be good going forward.
James Ryan and Caelan Doris aren't exactly geriatrics and they may end up bona fide legends as well. Isn't Ryan pretty much certain to be the Lions starting lock with Itoje? Doris may even be the nr 8, given that Faletau is gash these days and Vunipola crocked most of the time. It sure as chips won't be a Scot...
I'd add Tadhg Furlong to that list, who is in and around the conversation for top tighthead in the world. Larmour and Ringrose will also probably retire as legends of the Irish game too.clydecloggie wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:09 pmJames Ryan and Caelan Doris aren't exactly geriatrics and they may end up bona fide legends as well. Isn't Ryan pretty much certain to be the Lions starting lock with Itoje? Doris may even be the nr 8, given that Faletau is gash these days and Vunipola crocked most of the time. It sure as chips won't be a Scot...
Yeah, I've noticed his punditry being, frankly, shit. No real insight, joining in with the clubby, matey atmosphere that too much rugby broadcasting resorts to. You don't see Brian Moore doing that....KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:05 am I'm starting to get a little frustrated with John Barclay who it seems might be heading down the long established route of building a media career as a Scotsman out of being relentlessly negative about Scotland. I have noticed it a fair bit in his punditry recently, and articles like this are also pretty unhelpful:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55228033
There seems to be no critical thought in this at all. Apparently "Scotland have to play very well in the Six Nations to get guys on tour" for instance. Why is that John? Does Wales have to play very well in the Six Nations to get guys on tour too? What about Ireland and England? The reality is that individual players should be picked on their individual merits regardless of their collective results as part of a team of 22 other guys. For instance, in his pomp (by Barclay's logic), has he been eligible Sergio Parisse would never have made a representative team because the rest of the Italians in his team were gash. That is a nonsense opinion and it isn't applied to the other Lions nations. I can confidently say that, even if Wales finish last, they will have half a dozen or more Lions. We should expect to be treated the same.
I don't expect him to be a happy clappy Scotland are the best team in the world fantasist, but he should be accurate and balanced. Opinions like his do effect public opinions, and public opinions do impact on selection.
To be fair, he's saying that Scotland have to have a good 6 Nations because of Warren Gatland's biases, not because it's the way he thinks the Lions squad should be chosen.KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:05 am I'm starting to get a little frustrated with John Barclay who it seems might be heading down the long established route of building a media career as a Scotsman out of being relentlessly negative about Scotland. I have noticed it a fair bit in his punditry recently, and articles like this are also pretty unhelpful:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55228033
There seems to be no critical thought in this at all. Apparently "Scotland have to play very well in the Six Nations to get guys on tour" for instance. Why is that John? Does Wales have to play very well in the Six Nations to get guys on tour too? What about Ireland and England? The reality is that individual players should be picked on their individual merits regardless of their collective results as part of a team of 22 other guys. For instance, in his pomp (by Barclay's logic), has he been eligible Sergio Parisse would never have made a representative team because the rest of the Italians in his team were gash. That is a nonsense opinion and it isn't applied to the other Lions nations. I can confidently say that, even if Wales finish last, they will have half a dozen or more Lions. We should expect to be treated the same.
I don't expect him to be a happy clappy Scotland are the best team in the world fantasist, but he should be accurate and balanced. Opinions like his do effect public opinions, and public opinions do impact on selection.
On the 6N front, we are probably looking at 3 wins as keeping head above water (home games against Wales and Italy are absolute must-wins and we should be looking to beat Ireland at home), difficult to see wins in the away games.robmatic wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:55 amTo be fair, he's saying that Scotland have to have a good 6 Nations because of Warren Gatland's biases, not because it's the way he thinks the Lions squad should be chosen.KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:05 am I'm starting to get a little frustrated with John Barclay who it seems might be heading down the long established route of building a media career as a Scotsman out of being relentlessly negative about Scotland. I have noticed it a fair bit in his punditry recently, and articles like this are also pretty unhelpful:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55228033
There seems to be no critical thought in this at all. Apparently "Scotland have to play very well in the Six Nations to get guys on tour" for instance. Why is that John? Does Wales have to play very well in the Six Nations to get guys on tour too? What about Ireland and England? The reality is that individual players should be picked on their individual merits regardless of their collective results as part of a team of 22 other guys. For instance, in his pomp (by Barclay's logic), has he been eligible Sergio Parisse would never have made a representative team because the rest of the Italians in his team were gash. That is a nonsense opinion and it isn't applied to the other Lions nations. I can confidently say that, even if Wales finish last, they will have half a dozen or more Lions. We should expect to be treated the same.
I don't expect him to be a happy clappy Scotland are the best team in the world fantasist, but he should be accurate and balanced. Opinions like his do effect public opinions, and public opinions do impact on selection.
Well as far as improvement goes having a world class 10 available would be goodCaley_Red wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:03 pmOn the 6N front, we are probably looking at 3 wins as keeping head above water (home games against Wales and Italy are absolute must-wins and we should be looking to beat Ireland at home), difficult to see wins in the away games.robmatic wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:55 amTo be fair, he's saying that Scotland have to have a good 6 Nations because of Warren Gatland's biases, not because it's the way he thinks the Lions squad should be chosen.KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:05 am I'm starting to get a little frustrated with John Barclay who it seems might be heading down the long established route of building a media career as a Scotsman out of being relentlessly negative about Scotland. I have noticed it a fair bit in his punditry recently, and articles like this are also pretty unhelpful:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55228033
There seems to be no critical thought in this at all. Apparently "Scotland have to play very well in the Six Nations to get guys on tour" for instance. Why is that John? Does Wales have to play very well in the Six Nations to get guys on tour too? What about Ireland and England? The reality is that individual players should be picked on their individual merits regardless of their collective results as part of a team of 22 other guys. For instance, in his pomp (by Barclay's logic), has he been eligible Sergio Parisse would never have made a representative team because the rest of the Italians in his team were gash. That is a nonsense opinion and it isn't applied to the other Lions nations. I can confidently say that, even if Wales finish last, they will have half a dozen or more Lions. We should expect to be treated the same.
I don't expect him to be a happy clappy Scotland are the best team in the world fantasist, but he should be accurate and balanced. Opinions like his do effect public opinions, and public opinions do impact on selection.
I've been very disappointed by the last two games and believe they've erased any credit in the bank from last 6N. I'm also still convinced that GT is not the person to lead Scotland, can anyone honestly see where the necessary improvement is going to come from to properly challenge for 6N titles?
Scott Robertson is still available and looking for an international job, might be a stretch but certainly worth enquiring, in my view.Dogbert wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:08 amWell as far as improvement goes having a world class 10 available would be goodCaley_Red wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:03 pmOn the 6N front, we are probably looking at 3 wins as keeping head above water (home games against Wales and Italy are absolute must-wins and we should be looking to beat Ireland at home), difficult to see wins in the away games.
I've been very disappointed by the last two games and believe they've erased any credit in the bank from last 6N. I'm also still convinced that GT is not the person to lead Scotland, can anyone honestly see where the necessary improvement is going to come from to properly challenge for 6N titles?
If not GT , then who else ? were not exactly rolling in cash
It's not as if even if we change coach , we can change players.
The Ireland game was the most disappointing , even without Russell the first 30 minutes were fine , but Taylors yellow really changed things , and we never really recovered .It was like going back in time , with too many players giving away too many stupid , needless penalties , and the players need to sort that out , as I don't think that any change in coaches would really make any difference
The backrow needs to be better balanced against Ireland it simply didn't click , I thought Ritchie had a particularly poor game , but we do have options here, and I really think it's time to bring Jones back to the 13 shirt
As much as I like Darcy as a winger , I would love him to be Scotland's" Shane Williams ", I'm just not sure that against International opposition , he is defensively strong enough
I get a bit frustrated by the Toony out talk. There have been a couple of disappointing performances in the last few weeks but by most measures the last few years have been a pretty successful period in our rugby history. I think some people have pretty unrealistic expectations of where we should be.Caley_Red wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:03 pmOn the 6N front, we are probably looking at 3 wins as keeping head above water (home games against Wales and Italy are absolute must-wins and we should be looking to beat Ireland at home), difficult to see wins in the away games.robmatic wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:55 amTo be fair, he's saying that Scotland have to have a good 6 Nations because of Warren Gatland's biases, not because it's the way he thinks the Lions squad should be chosen.KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:05 am I'm starting to get a little frustrated with John Barclay who it seems might be heading down the long established route of building a media career as a Scotsman out of being relentlessly negative about Scotland. I have noticed it a fair bit in his punditry recently, and articles like this are also pretty unhelpful:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55228033
There seems to be no critical thought in this at all. Apparently "Scotland have to play very well in the Six Nations to get guys on tour" for instance. Why is that John? Does Wales have to play very well in the Six Nations to get guys on tour too? What about Ireland and England? The reality is that individual players should be picked on their individual merits regardless of their collective results as part of a team of 22 other guys. For instance, in his pomp (by Barclay's logic), has he been eligible Sergio Parisse would never have made a representative team because the rest of the Italians in his team were gash. That is a nonsense opinion and it isn't applied to the other Lions nations. I can confidently say that, even if Wales finish last, they will have half a dozen or more Lions. We should expect to be treated the same.
I don't expect him to be a happy clappy Scotland are the best team in the world fantasist, but he should be accurate and balanced. Opinions like his do effect public opinions, and public opinions do impact on selection.
I've been very disappointed by the last two games and believe they've erased any credit in the bank from last 6N. I'm also still convinced that GT is not the person to lead Scotland, can anyone honestly see where the necessary improvement is going to come from to properly challenge for 6N titles?
Absolutely agree with this post. Not only does Toonie's tenure pass the sniff test (i.e. we have looked good at least at times, we are generally more optimistic, we are subjectively improving, the rugby has been exciting), but it also passes the statistical test. OTOTM has posted numerous times that, statistically, Toonie is the most successful Scotland coach ever. No other coach, even in our 'halcyon days' has won as consistently. Of course we haven't won any tournaments, and we had a frankly awful world cup, but I think he has done enough for another cycle.Slick wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:59 amI get a bit frustrated by the Toony out talk. There have been a couple of disappointing performances in the last few weeks but by most measures the last few years have been a pretty successful period in our rugby history. I think some people have pretty unrealistic expectations of where we should be.Caley_Red wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:03 pmOn the 6N front, we are probably looking at 3 wins as keeping head above water (home games against Wales and Italy are absolute must-wins and we should be looking to beat Ireland at home), difficult to see wins in the away games.
I've been very disappointed by the last two games and believe they've erased any credit in the bank from last 6N. I'm also still convinced that GT is not the person to lead Scotland, can anyone honestly see where the necessary improvement is going to come from to properly challenge for 6N titles?
I also think that generally the rugby has been exciting to watch and has given Scottish rugby a fair bit of respect.
I also struggle to criticise a coach that tries a style that was pretty successful for a while, accepted it wasn’t working later, and then completely changed the style. He is still working towards where he wants it to be. I think that has been very impressive, frankly.
I just don’t see how any coach is going to come in and make our results better with the resources we have.
Big unit.Begbie wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:06 am https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/province-c ... r-rumours/
Scottish and English qualified lock David Meihuizen attracting interest from Scotland.
20 stone players are like gold dust to Scotland in terms of size, but can he play too? His wiki says he is 23 with 10 pro appearances, that isn't much for his age. Interesting, but we are in danger of becoming South Africa B.robmatic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:38 amBig unit.Begbie wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:06 am https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/province-c ... r-rumours/
Scottish and English qualified lock David Meihuizen attracting interest from Scotland.
People grumble about the project players but this seems more mercenary to me. At least the project players are guys who commit to Scotland and international rugby is a long-term consideration. Think we are basically bidding for this guy's allegiance?
B?? Perhaps out of our tartan Saffers McMerwe would rise to those heights, but who else?KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:48 am20 stone players are like gold dust to Scotland in terms of size, but can he play too? His wiki says he is 23 with 10 pro appearances, that isn't much for his age. Interesting, but we are in danger of becoming South Africa B.robmatic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:38 amBig unit.Begbie wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:06 am https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/province-c ... r-rumours/
Scottish and English qualified lock David Meihuizen attracting interest from Scotland.
People grumble about the project players but this seems more mercenary to me. At least the project players are guys who commit to Scotland and international rugby is a long-term consideration. Think we are basically bidding for this guy's allegiance?
Nel, Schoeman.clydecloggie wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:21 amB?? Perhaps out of our tartan Saffers McMerwe would rise to those heights, but who else?KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:48 am20 stone players are like gold dust to Scotland in terms of size, but can he play too? His wiki says he is 23 with 10 pro appearances, that isn't much for his age. Interesting, but we are in danger of becoming South Africa B.robmatic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:38 am
Big unit.
People grumble about the project players but this seems more mercenary to me. At least the project players are guys who commit to Scotland and international rugby is a long-term consideration. Think we are basically bidding for this guy's allegiance?
Funnily enough I'm just listening to Andrew Cotter's interview on the Scottish Rugby Blog podcast, which is great value - and he is surprisingly outspoken on this issue. To - sort of - quote: "I'm doing comms and saying these names like van der Merwe and van der Walt and thinking 'this is ridiculous'!"
I'm not against it as such, but it's an 'all things in moderation' type of view I have. We could conceivably put out:
I think the unrealistic expectations reflect that anyone who is in their 40s right now grew up in an era when Scotland competed at the top of the table, won titles and were relevant on a global scale. The problem is that Scotland have spent most of rugby history being a bit mediocre, and it’s the 80s and 90s that were the statistical outlier.Slick wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:59 amI get a bit frustrated by the Toony out talk. There have been a couple of disappointing performances in the last few weeks but by most measures the last few years have been a pretty successful period in our rugby history. I think some people have pretty unrealistic expectations of where we should be.Caley_Red wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:03 pmOn the 6N front, we are probably looking at 3 wins as keeping head above water (home games against Wales and Italy are absolute must-wins and we should be looking to beat Ireland at home), difficult to see wins in the away games.
I've been very disappointed by the last two games and believe they've erased any credit in the bank from last 6N. I'm also still convinced that GT is not the person to lead Scotland, can anyone honestly see where the necessary improvement is going to come from to properly challenge for 6N titles?
I also think that generally the rugby has been exciting to watch and has given Scottish rugby a fair bit of respect.
I also struggle to criticise a coach that tries a style that was pretty successful for a while, accepted it wasn’t working later, and then completely changed the style. He is still working towards where he wants it to be. I think that has been very impressive, frankly.
I just don’t see how any coach is going to come in and make our results better with the resources we have.
Are 11 of that list not parent/ grandparent rule though?KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:44 amI'm not against it as such, but it's an 'all things in moderation' type of view I have. We could conceivably put out:
Kebble/Shoeman - xx - Nel/Berghan
Skinner - Toolis
Cowan - Thomson/Du Preez - Haining
xx
VDW
Grigg/Harris - Johnson/Lang
Maitland - Duhan
xx
That's off the top of my head of various qualification routes that don't involve our own system. The only three positions I couldn't think of a player are hooker, scrumhalf and fullback, and there are multiple I thought of more than one and some generous non-picks (Ali Price and SHC both from outside Scotland). I think all the players involved merit selection, but it is an awful lot.
