Starmergeddon: They Came And Ate Us

[Biffer]

My mate, now retired, used to work for RR and is very, very confident from what he hears that the Small Nuclear Reactors in development will be the main answer moving forward and developments are well underway. Share price is doing well on back of it and he recommends buy. Heavy investment coming in from big IT companies who see them as the answer for powering AI centres. The days of big monolithic, expensive nuclear sites like Hinkley, and all the problems with ensuring the grid has capacity to move power around, are probably numbered as power generation - SNR, wind, solar, etc will move closer to demand and battery storage will improve dramatically over the next 10 years.

Just as an aside - RR is Rolls Royce, aye?

My wife had to go to their factory just outside Chichester for work a few times. It was sunk into to ground so that it didn't interrupt the view from Goodwood house :-) The trees outside the factory are cut into perfect cubes and you could probably eat off the tarmac.

The cars parked outside were exceptional as you'd expect, lots of Beemers too due to the partnership. I actually felt a bit embarrassed in my 20 year old Galaxy when I dropped her off and picked her up.
https://www.press.rolls-roycemotorcars. ... anguage=en

Rolls-Royce Motor Cars is separate to the broader aviation, power and marine business - the cars bit is owned by BMW. The nuclear reactor stuff is part of the broader business that's under Rolls-Royce Holdings..

As you'd expect given engineer's wages, not too many shiny Rollers out the front of Filton or Derby, sadly!

I just got told the funding for SNRs was pulled last year. Checking, but the person who told me said RR were really pissed about it, and rightly so tbh.

[Paddington Bear]

Why do you guys always think if someone hates the Tories for being useless then they must be hardcore Labour? 13 parties now have seats in the supposedly 2 party system, plus independents. About 5 parties with seats are loaded with supporters who hate the Tories. Which is why despite Labour's underwhelming start the Tories are now polling below their 2024 GE at around 20%. The Tories have actually managed to lose support over the last 6 months.

"This is just like Truss" is obvious garbage. If Tories keep repeating it whenever anything happens, in an obvious attempt to downplay and normalise Truss, then they're only going to keep reminding everyone how shit they were.

For much the same reason you guys think if someone hates Labour they must be Tories.
There assurance that there is no parallel or valid comparison for almost any political or economic decision between the two main parties, is as baffling as it is amusing to me, on par with the usual Tories closed the mines & privatised the NHS bollocks. If it helps, I have a pretty low opinion of politicians full stop, until they prove otherwise (not just Uk ones) and haven’t voted Tory since Dcam.

One thing I do agree with you, is that any Tory in power really needs to avoid any truss reference or comparison , she was that bad. A counter to that though, should be Labour mps should also not use that as a yardstick measure as the honeymoon period has kind of lapsed.

Ah come on, we all know you're Tory leaning at the very least.

Truss is going to be mentioned by anyone who isn't a Tory for decades. MPs who aren't even born yet are going to remind people of "Truss blowing up the economy", if the Tories still exist by then. One of the Tory claims is only they can be trusted with the economy, it's hard to refute because it immediately becomes charts and a technical conversation. But the Truss event wasn't like that, it was immediate £ collapse and mortgages going up, then the Truss government being replaced to try and recover the situation. It's a handy one liner and undermines a lot of Tory claims. No one gives up a weapon like that.

The Tories are now rudderless and clueless. Mel Stride someone first elected in 2010 who went not very far since then, even with all the churn in the Tory ranks, is shadow chancellor. If they actually land any attacks on Reeves, they'll then be confronted with their star replacement being Stride. Issues they and their allies in the media have focused on are: Grooming gangs when Starmer is the guy who went out of his way to secure convictions according to anyone with any knowledge on the subject, reminding everyone of Liz Truss seemingly all the time, Chagos Islands which not many people care about and is the deciding voting issue for no one at all. It's a "barrage of nonsense" as Starmer said.

This has to be the most bereft of talent the Tories have ever been, worse than 1997-2001. Which I suspect is why Labour polling is holding up quite well even though the Starmer government is unpopular, they're still the least worst for a lot of people.

To clarify - a government polling at 25% is polling ‘holding up quite well’?!

[Yeeb]

Why do you guys always think if someone hates the Tories for being useless then they must be hardcore Labour? 13 parties now have seats in the supposedly 2 party system, plus independents. About 5 parties with seats are loaded with supporters who hate the Tories. Which is why despite Labour's underwhelming start the Tories are now polling below their 2024 GE at around 20%. The Tories have actually managed to lose support over the last 6 months.

"This is just like Truss" is obvious garbage. If Tories keep repeating it whenever anything happens, in an obvious attempt to downplay and normalise Truss, then they're only going to keep reminding everyone how shit they were.

For much the same reason you guys think if someone hates Labour they must be Tories.
There assurance that there is no parallel or valid comparison for almost any political or economic decision between the two main parties, is as baffling as it is amusing to me, on par with the usual Tories closed the mines & privatised the NHS bollocks. If it helps, I have a pretty low opinion of politicians full stop, until they prove otherwise (not just Uk ones) and haven’t voted Tory since Dcam.

One thing I do agree with you, is that any Tory in power really needs to avoid any truss reference or comparison , she was that bad. A counter to that though, should be Labour mps should also not use that as a yardstick measure as the honeymoon period has kind of lapsed.

Ah come on, we all know you're Tory leaning at the very least.

Truss is going to be mentioned by anyone who isn't a Tory for decades. MPs who aren't even born yet are going to remind people of "Truss blowing up the economy", if the Tories still exist by then. One of the Tory claims is only they can be trusted with the economy, it's hard to refute because it immediately becomes charts and a technical conversation. But the Truss event wasn't like that, it was immediate £ collapse and mortgages going up, then the Truss government being replaced to try and recover the situation. It's a handy one liner and undermines a lot of Tory claims. No one gives up a weapon like that.

The Tories are now rudderless and clueless. Mel Stride someone first elected in 2010 who went not very far since then, even with all the churn in the Tory ranks, is shadow chancellor. If they actually land any attacks on Reeves, they'll then be confronted with their star replacement being Stride. Issues they and their allies in the media have focused on are: Grooming gangs when Starmer is the guy who went out of his way to secure convictions according to anyone with any knowledge on the subject, reminding everyone of Liz Truss seemingly all the time, Chagos Islands which not many people care about and is the deciding voting issue for no one at all. It's a "barrage of nonsense" as Starmer said.

This has to be the most bereft of talent the Tories have ever been, worse than 1997-2001. Which I suspect is why Labour polling is holding up quite well even though the Starmer government is unpopular, they're still the least worst for a lot of people.

Tory leaning ?
I think you are trolling yourself here a bit, ask yourself this 2 part question: A. who is most likely to get fired up on Internet forums, and B. Who would I be most likely to target with a few carefully placed posts or threads ?
You seem to have swallowed a few bits of bait hook line and sinker , and or missed some of the many housing or economics posts I’ve made. Not liking Labour ≠ being a Tory , truth is I have a real mix of ideals and all the parties have some good stuff along with the crazy. A succinct version would be left of centre historically for health and education , right of centre for all things pool
Shittery and finance, and centre for most other stuff.

Most of your last 2 paras are spot on, but I can’t come close to agreeing with you that current incumbents are holding up well, may as well say Pompeii or Hiroshima got a bit warm at certain points in their history

[Yeeb]

For much the same reason you guys think if someone hates Labour they must be Tories.
There assurance that there is no parallel or valid comparison for almost any political or economic decision between the two main parties, is as baffling as it is amusing to me, on par with the usual Tories closed the mines & privatised the NHS bollocks. If it helps, I have a pretty low opinion of politicians full stop, until they prove otherwise (not just Uk ones) and haven’t voted Tory since Dcam.

One thing I do agree with you, is that any Tory in power really needs to avoid any truss reference or comparison , she was that bad. A counter to that though, should be Labour mps should also not use that as a yardstick measure as the honeymoon period has kind of lapsed.

Ah come on, we all know you're Tory leaning at the very least.

Truss is going to be mentioned by anyone who isn't a Tory for decades. MPs who aren't even born yet are going to remind people of "Truss blowing up the economy", if the Tories still exist by then. One of the Tory claims is only they can be trusted with the economy, it's hard to refute because it immediately becomes charts and a technical conversation. But the Truss event wasn't like that, it was immediate £ collapse and mortgages going up, then the Truss government being replaced to try and recover the situation. It's a handy one liner and undermines a lot of Tory claims. No one gives up a weapon like that.

The Tories are now rudderless and clueless. Mel Stride someone first elected in 2010 who went not very far since then, even with all the churn in the Tory ranks, is shadow chancellor. If they actually land any attacks on Reeves, they'll then be confronted with their star replacement being Stride. Issues they and their allies in the media have focused on are: Grooming gangs when Starmer is the guy who went out of his way to secure convictions according to anyone with any knowledge on the subject, reminding everyone of Liz Truss seemingly all the time, Chagos Islands which not many people care about and is the deciding voting issue for no one at all. It's a "barrage of nonsense" as Starmer said.

This has to be the most bereft of talent the Tories have ever been, worse than 1997-2001. Which I suspect is why Labour polling is holding up quite well even though the Starmer government is unpopular, they're still the least worst for a lot of people.

To clarify - a government polling at 25% is polling ‘holding up quite well’?!

An incredible statement is it not

[_Os_]

For much the same reason you guys think if someone hates Labour they must be Tories.
There assurance that there is no parallel or valid comparison for almost any political or economic decision between the two main parties, is as baffling as it is amusing to me, on par with the usual Tories closed the mines & privatised the NHS bollocks. If it helps, I have a pretty low opinion of politicians full stop, until they prove otherwise (not just Uk ones) and haven’t voted Tory since Dcam.

One thing I do agree with you, is that any Tory in power really needs to avoid any truss reference or comparison , she was that bad. A counter to that though, should be Labour mps should also not use that as a yardstick measure as the honeymoon period has kind of lapsed.

Ah come on, we all know you're Tory leaning at the very least.

Truss is going to be mentioned by anyone who isn't a Tory for decades. MPs who aren't even born yet are going to remind people of "Truss blowing up the economy", if the Tories still exist by then. One of the Tory claims is only they can be trusted with the economy, it's hard to refute because it immediately becomes charts and a technical conversation. But the Truss event wasn't like that, it was immediate £ collapse and mortgages going up, then the Truss government being replaced to try and recover the situation. It's a handy one liner and undermines a lot of Tory claims. No one gives up a weapon like that.

The Tories are now rudderless and clueless. Mel Stride someone first elected in 2010 who went not very far since then, even with all the churn in the Tory ranks, is shadow chancellor. If they actually land any attacks on Reeves, they'll then be confronted with their star replacement being Stride. Issues they and their allies in the media have focused on are: Grooming gangs when Starmer is the guy who went out of his way to secure convictions according to anyone with any knowledge on the subject, reminding everyone of Liz Truss seemingly all the time, Chagos Islands which not many people care about and is the deciding voting issue for no one at all. It's a "barrage of nonsense" as Starmer said.

This has to be the most bereft of talent the Tories have ever been, worse than 1997-2001. Which I suspect is why Labour polling is holding up quite well even though the Starmer government is unpopular, they're still the least worst for a lot of people.

To clarify - a government polling at 25% is polling ‘holding up quite well’?!

Yep. This is the most recent YouGov poll, probably the most reliable (% is GB only): Labour 26%, Reform 25%, Tories 22%, Lib Dems 14%, Greens 8%, SNP 3%, Plaid 1%, Other 2%.
2024 GE result (GB only): Labour 34.7%, Tories 24.4%, Reform 14.7%, Lib Dems 12.5%, Greens 6.9%, Others 6.8%.

Labour still the most popular party just. Tactical voting was significant in the 2024 result. It's a FPTP system, but people express their views and increasingly vote as if it were a PR system (hence all the parties), when it comes to the crunch are those 2.6% of voters that switched to Lib Dems/Greens actually going to vote that way if it risks a Tory getting in? If not Labour are really on about 28.6%. The magic number is 30%, at that level a majority becomes realistic under normal conditions (the right wing vote being split isn't normal).

The Tories look in bigger trouble, their loss of support is smaller but is still -10%. Reform have their tanks parked firmly on their lawn, the right of Reform and the left of the Tories cover nearly the entire political spectrum, repacking all that into a single party looks impossible (what happens when Brexit comes up? Tommy Ten Names should be a member or not? Frog Face as leader or not? Truss actually a secret genius or a moron? Immigration end or maintain or increase? Vaccines good or evil? Climate change happening or not? NIMBY or YIMBY? NHS privatisation yes or no?). A Tory and Reform merger doesn't look possible without Farage as leader, but Frog Face is marmite which means Labour/Lib Dems/Greens getting some growth too. Labour and the broader centre/left look far more coherent.

Digging into the YouGov data, the standout numbers are the continued Tory crash in support among anyone below 50, they're struggling to get into double digits. Yeeb assumed I was a bobbing Labour bobble hat wearer, he would've been safer assuming I and anyone else who hates the Tories is just someone under 50. It's morbid but Tories are losing voters to death at the fastest rate, a sixth of their 2024 voters projected to die by 2029, which starts pushing them into the 15%-20% range.

With this amount of parties polling well, how low the percentage can go for a majority starts becoming absurd. Anything close to 30% with a good geographic spread looks like a nailed on majority, analogous to what 35%+ usually indicates.

[Paddington Bear]

Ah come on, we all know you're Tory leaning at the very least.

Truss is going to be mentioned by anyone who isn't a Tory for decades. MPs who aren't even born yet are going to remind people of "Truss blowing up the economy", if the Tories still exist by then. One of the Tory claims is only they can be trusted with the economy, it's hard to refute because it immediately becomes charts and a technical conversation. But the Truss event wasn't like that, it was immediate £ collapse and mortgages going up, then the Truss government being replaced to try and recover the situation. It's a handy one liner and undermines a lot of Tory claims. No one gives up a weapon like that.

The Tories are now rudderless and clueless. Mel Stride someone first elected in 2010 who went not very far since then, even with all the churn in the Tory ranks, is shadow chancellor. If they actually land any attacks on Reeves, they'll then be confronted with their star replacement being Stride. Issues they and their allies in the media have focused on are: Grooming gangs when Starmer is the guy who went out of his way to secure convictions according to anyone with any knowledge on the subject, reminding everyone of Liz Truss seemingly all the time, Chagos Islands which not many people care about and is the deciding voting issue for no one at all. It's a "barrage of nonsense" as Starmer said.

This has to be the most bereft of talent the Tories have ever been, worse than 1997-2001. Which I suspect is why Labour polling is holding up quite well even though the Starmer government is unpopular, they're still the least worst for a lot of people.

To clarify - a government polling at 25% is polling ‘holding up quite well’?!

Yep. This is the most recent YouGov poll, probably the most reliable (% is GB only): Labour 26%, Reform 25%, Tories 22%, Lib Dems 14%, Greens 8%, SNP 3%, Plaid 1%, Other 2%.
2024 GE result (GB only): Labour 34.7%, Tories 24.4%, Reform 14.7%, Lib Dems 12.5%, Greens 6.9%, Others 6.8%.

Labour still the most popular party just. Tactical voting was significant in the 2024 result. It's a FPTP system, but people express their views and increasingly vote as if it were a PR system (hence all the parties), when it comes to the crunch are those 2.6% of voters that switched to Lib Dems/Greens actually going to vote that way if it risks a Tory getting in? If not Labour are really on about 28.6%. The magic number is 30%, at that level a majority becomes realistic under normal conditions (the right wing vote being split isn't normal).

The Tories look in bigger trouble, their loss of support is smaller but is still -10%. Reform have their tanks parked firmly on their lawn, the right of Reform and the left of the Tories cover nearly the entire political spectrum, repacking all that into a single party looks impossible (what happens when Brexit comes up? Tommy Ten Names should be a member or not? Frog Face as leader or not? Truss actually a secret genius or a moron? Immigration end or maintain or increase? Vaccines good or evil? Climate change happening or not? NIMBY or YIMBY? NHS privatisation yes or no?). A Tory and Reform merger doesn't look possible without Farage as leader, but Frog Face is marmite which means Labour/Lib Dems/Greens getting some growth too. Labour and the broader centre/left look far more coherent.

Digging into the YouGov data, the standout numbers are the continued Tory crash in support among anyone below 50, they're struggling to get into double digits. Yeeb assumed I was a bobbing Labour bobble hat wearer, he would've been safer assuming I and anyone else who hates the Tories is just someone under 50. It's morbid but Tories are losing voters to death at the fastest rate, a sixth of their 2024 voters projected to die by 2029, which starts pushing them into the 15%-20% range.

With this amount of parties polling well, how low the percentage can go for a majority starts becoming absurd. Anything close to 30% with a good geographic spread looks like a nailed on majority, analogous to what 35%+ usually indicates.

So as far as I can work out, your thought process is:

1) you’ve rearranged the polling based on how you think people really mean to vote,
2) claimed the Tory drop from 24-22 is worse than Labour’s 34-25, and
3) there’ll be so many deaths in four years that the Tories will be wiped out

as the triple whammy that justifies Labour going from 34-25% in the polls within 6 months in government as ‘polling holding up well’

Fantastic stuff, 10/10

[_Os_]

To clarify - a government polling at 25% is polling ‘holding up quite well’?!

Yep. This is the most recent YouGov poll, probably the most reliable (% is GB only): Labour 26%, Reform 25%, Tories 22%, Lib Dems 14%, Greens 8%, SNP 3%, Plaid 1%, Other 2%.
2024 GE result (GB only): Labour 34.7%, Tories 24.4%, Reform 14.7%, Lib Dems 12.5%, Greens 6.9%, Others 6.8%.

Labour still the most popular party just. Tactical voting was significant in the 2024 result. It's a FPTP system, but people express their views and increasingly vote as if it were a PR system (hence all the parties), when it comes to the crunch are those 2.6% of voters that switched to Lib Dems/Greens actually going to vote that way if it risks a Tory getting in? If not Labour are really on about 28.6%. The magic number is 30%, at that level a majority becomes realistic under normal conditions (the right wing vote being split isn't normal).

The Tories look in bigger trouble, their loss of support is smaller but is still -10%. Reform have their tanks parked firmly on their lawn, the right of Reform and the left of the Tories cover nearly the entire political spectrum, repacking all that into a single party looks impossible (what happens when Brexit comes up? Tommy Ten Names should be a member or not? Frog Face as leader or not? Truss actually a secret genius or a moron? Immigration end or maintain or increase? Vaccines good or evil? Climate change happening or not? NIMBY or YIMBY? NHS privatisation yes or no?). A Tory and Reform merger doesn't look possible without Farage as leader, but Frog Face is marmite which means Labour/Lib Dems/Greens getting some growth too. Labour and the broader centre/left look far more coherent.

Digging into the YouGov data, the standout numbers are the continued Tory crash in support among anyone below 50, they're struggling to get into double digits. Yeeb assumed I was a bobbing Labour bobble hat wearer, he would've been safer assuming I and anyone else who hates the Tories is just someone under 50. It's morbid but Tories are losing voters to death at the fastest rate, a sixth of their 2024 voters projected to die by 2029, which starts pushing them into the 15%-20% range.

With this amount of parties polling well, how low the percentage can go for a majority starts becoming absurd. Anything close to 30% with a good geographic spread looks like a nailed on majority, analogous to what 35%+ usually indicates.

So as far as I can work out, your thought process is:

1) you’ve rearranged the polling based on how you think people really mean to vote,
2) claimed the Tory drop from 24-22 is worse than Labour’s 34-25, and
3) there’ll be so many deaths in four years that the Tories will be wiped out

as the triple whammy that justifies Labour going from 34-25% in the polls within 6 months in government as ‘polling holding up well’

Fantastic stuff, 10/10

1. You can always count on quite a few Labour/Lib Dems/Greens voting for whoever has the best chance against the Tories. Which usually means Labour. In normal times you can give half the Greens number to Labour, not that these are normal times. That's what tactical voting is. That's why the Tories got so badly beaten in 2024. FPTP voting system means not many votes can have a disproportionate impact.
2. "Their loss of support is smaller but is still -10%", that's what I said. Labour's decline of 25% of their support, is obviously mitigated by the Tories losing 10% of theirs.
3. Tories are dying at a faster rate than Labour because their voter pool is older. The Tories are extremely unpopular with people age under 50, well beyond the "people move right as they get older" trend which doesn't look so true anymore. There's also the issue that they're literally called baby boomers, it's a large generation, which means replacing them vote for vote requires a larger percentage of the generations below them. A lot of this is just maths.

I said they were holding up well relative to how unpopular the Starmer government is, and that the reason was for a lot of people they're the least worst. Laughing at Labour doesn't really work when the point of a percentage is to measure something relative to something else, in other words how are the Tories doing?

[C T]

Both doing fairly terribly to be fair.

From a Labour perspective I imagine they've baked in a drop in the polls, they are definitely trying to get bad stuff out the way early. Perhaps they were not expecting as much of a drop though? In theory this should be their low, but they need some positives to start coming through in the data.

The Tories were surely hoping for a bit of a bounce back from an historic low, given new leader/Labour drop. If Reform stick around, plus all the things mentions by OS they are in big trouble.

[_Os_]

Both doing fairly terribly to be fair.

From a Labour perspective I imagine they've baked in a drop in the polls, they are definitely trying to get bad stuff out the way early. Perhaps they were not expecting as much of a drop though? In theory this should be their low, but they need some positives to start coming through in the data.

The Tories were surely hoping for a bit of a bounce back from an historic low, given new leader/Labour drop. If Reform stick around, plus all the things mentions by OS they are in big trouble.

There's some speculation among Labour types that team Starmer are pursuing an extremely risky strategy of enabling Frog Face when they can, under the expectation he'll damage the Tories more than he damages Labour. Which if it comes to pass will lower the bar for Labour. Evidence is thin, but Labour didn't contest Clacton that much, and Starmer bizarrely went to speak with/congratulate Frog Face the first time they were in the Commons together (PM crossed the Commons to a seated Frog Face). This would be inline with the McSweeney strategy used at council level against the BNP, agree with them and never fight them.

[robmatic]

Yep. This is the most recent YouGov poll, probably the most reliable (% is GB only): Labour 26%, Reform 25%, Tories 22%, Lib Dems 14%, Greens 8%, SNP 3%, Plaid 1%, Other 2%.
2024 GE result (GB only): Labour 34.7%, Tories 24.4%, Reform 14.7%, Lib Dems 12.5%, Greens 6.9%, Others 6.8%.

Labour still the most popular party just. Tactical voting was significant in the 2024 result. It's a FPTP system, but people express their views and increasingly vote as if it were a PR system (hence all the parties), when it comes to the crunch are those 2.6% of voters that switched to Lib Dems/Greens actually going to vote that way if it risks a Tory getting in? If not Labour are really on about 28.6%. The magic number is 30%, at that level a majority becomes realistic under normal conditions (the right wing vote being split isn't normal).

The Tories look in bigger trouble, their loss of support is smaller but is still -10%. Reform have their tanks parked firmly on their lawn, the right of Reform and the left of the Tories cover nearly the entire political spectrum, repacking all that into a single party looks impossible (what happens when Brexit comes up? Tommy Ten Names should be a member or not? Frog Face as leader or not? Truss actually a secret genius or a moron? Immigration end or maintain or increase? Vaccines good or evil? Climate change happening or not? NIMBY or YIMBY? NHS privatisation yes or no?). A Tory and Reform merger doesn't look possible without Farage as leader, but Frog Face is marmite which means Labour/Lib Dems/Greens getting some growth too. Labour and the broader centre/left look far more coherent.

Digging into the YouGov data, the standout numbers are the continued Tory crash in support among anyone below 50, they're struggling to get into double digits. Yeeb assumed I was a bobbing Labour bobble hat wearer, he would've been safer assuming I and anyone else who hates the Tories is just someone under 50. It's morbid but Tories are losing voters to death at the fastest rate, a sixth of their 2024 voters projected to die by 2029, which starts pushing them into the 15%-20% range.

With this amount of parties polling well, how low the percentage can go for a majority starts becoming absurd. Anything close to 30% with a good geographic spread looks like a nailed on majority, analogous to what 35%+ usually indicates.

So as far as I can work out, your thought process is:

1) you’ve rearranged the polling based on how you think people really mean to vote,
2) claimed the Tory drop from 24-22 is worse than Labour’s 34-25, and
3) there’ll be so many deaths in four years that the Tories will be wiped out

as the triple whammy that justifies Labour going from 34-25% in the polls within 6 months in government as ‘polling holding up well’

Fantastic stuff, 10/10

1. You can always count on quite a few Labour/Lib Dems/Greens voting for whoever has the best chance against the Tories. Which usually means Labour. In normal times you can give half the Greens number to Labour, not that these are normal times. That's what tactical voting is. That's why the Tories got so badly beaten in 2024. FPTP voting system means not many votes can have a disproportionate impact.
2. "Their loss of support is smaller but is still -10%", that's what I said. Labour's decline of 25% of their support, is obviously mitigated by the Tories losing 10% of theirs.
3. Tories are dying at a faster rate than Labour because their voter pool is older. The Tories are extremely unpopular with people age under 50, well beyond the "people move right as they get older" trend which doesn't look so true anymore. There's also the issue that they're literally called baby boomers, it's a large generation, which means replacing them vote for vote requires a larger percentage of the generations below them. A lot of this is just maths.

I said they were holding up well relative to how unpopular the Starmer government is, and that the reason was for a lot of people they're the least worst. Laughing at Labour doesn't really work when the point of a percentage is to measure something relative to something else, in other words how are the Tories doing?

A lot of this analysis rests on Labour/Lib Dem/Greens being sophisticated tactical voters and the 47% of the electorate expressing a preference for Tories and Reform during the new government's honeymoon period being lumpen idiots incapable of electoral calculus.

[Hugo]

That plus newer gen Z voters not being conservative/right wing.

There's always been this analysis out there that conservative parties are facing demographic induced extinction. It seems to hinge on boomer conservatives dying and there being absolutely no young right wingers to take their place.

It doesn't make a ton of sense because generations tend to correct what they perceived as the failings of the prior generation and as the pendulum swings in one direction so it swings in the other.

[I like neeps]

That plus newer gen Z voters not being conservative/right wing.

There's always been this analysis out there that conservative parties are facing demographic induced extinction. It seems to hinge on boomer conservatives dying and there being absolutely no young right wingers to take their place.

It doesn't make a ton of sense because generations tend to correct what they perceived as the failings of the prior generation and as the pendulum swings in one direction so it swings in the other.

Young women are moving to the left. Young men are very much moving to the right.

[Paddington Bear]

So as far as I can work out, your thought process is:

1) you’ve rearranged the polling based on how you think people really mean to vote,
2) claimed the Tory drop from 24-22 is worse than Labour’s 34-25, and
3) there’ll be so many deaths in four years that the Tories will be wiped out

as the triple whammy that justifies Labour going from 34-25% in the polls within 6 months in government as ‘polling holding up well’

Fantastic stuff, 10/10

1. You can always count on quite a few Labour/Lib Dems/Greens voting for whoever has the best chance against the Tories. Which usually means Labour. In normal times you can give half the Greens number to Labour, not that these are normal times. That's what tactical voting is. That's why the Tories got so badly beaten in 2024. FPTP voting system means not many votes can have a disproportionate impact.
2. "Their loss of support is smaller but is still -10%", that's what I said. Labour's decline of 25% of their support, is obviously mitigated by the Tories losing 10% of theirs.
3. Tories are dying at a faster rate than Labour because their voter pool is older. The Tories are extremely unpopular with people age under 50, well beyond the "people move right as they get older" trend which doesn't look so true anymore. There's also the issue that they're literally called baby boomers, it's a large generation, which means replacing them vote for vote requires a larger percentage of the generations below them. A lot of this is just maths.

I said they were holding up well relative to how unpopular the Starmer government is, and that the reason was for a lot of people they're the least worst. Laughing at Labour doesn't really work when the point of a percentage is to measure something relative to something else, in other words how are the Tories doing?

A lot of this analysis rests on Labour/Lib Dem/Greens being sophisticated tactical voters and the 47% of the electorate expressing a preference for Tories and Reform during the new government's honeymoon period being lumpen idiots incapable of electoral calculus.

Also that Lib Dems voters are left wing, which does not seem to tally nicely with their current dominance in Soviet Henley, Amersham and Cheltenham.

The only successful large scale electoral pact we have seen was in 2019 between the Tories and a party led by Nigel Farage. Given that we currently have the Tories and a party led by Nigel Farage at 45-50%, it suggests quite the opposite of good news for Labour

[robmatic]

That plus newer gen Z voters not being conservative/right wing.

There's always been this analysis out there that conservative parties are facing demographic induced extinction. It seems to hinge on boomer conservatives dying and there being absolutely no young right wingers to take their place.

It doesn't make a ton of sense because generations tend to correct what they perceived as the failings of the prior generation and as the pendulum swings in one direction so it swings in the other.

Young women are moving to the left. Young men are very much moving to the right.

Anecdotally, my early 20s niece has had a succession of alarmingly right wing boyfriends.

[I like neeps]

That plus newer gen Z voters not being conservative/right wing.

There's always been this analysis out there that conservative parties are facing demographic induced extinction. It seems to hinge on boomer conservatives dying and there being absolutely no young right wingers to take their place.

It doesn't make a ton of sense because generations tend to correct what they perceived as the failings of the prior generation and as the pendulum swings in one direction so it swings in the other.

Young women are moving to the left. Young men are very much moving to the right.

Anecdotally, my early 20s niece has had a succession of alarmingly right wing boyfriends.

Yes the trend is backed up anecdotally and with data all across the democratic west, not just the UK.

Os talking about the Tories not getting under50s to vote them for is fine. But Reform will absolutely have male under50s voting for them. Wouldn't be surprised if on men without a college degree all ages next election reform won heavily in that category.

[Biffer]

That plus newer gen Z voters not being conservative/right wing.

There's always been this analysis out there that conservative parties are facing demographic induced extinction. It seems to hinge on boomer conservatives dying and there being absolutely no young right wingers to take their place.

It doesn't make a ton of sense because generations tend to correct what they perceived as the failings of the prior generation and as the pendulum swings in one direction so it swings in the other.

Young women are moving to the left. Young men are very much moving to the right.

The other significant difference is that middle aged people are not moving to the right as they age in the same way that precious generations did.

[Paddington Bear]

Young women are moving to the left. Young men are very much moving to the right.

Anecdotally, my early 20s niece has had a succession of alarmingly right wing boyfriends.

Yes the trend is backed up anecdotally and with data all across the democratic west, not just the UK.

Os talking about the Tories not getting under50s to vote them for is fine. But Reform will absolutely have male under50s voting for them. Wouldn't be surprised if on men without a college degree all ages next election reform won heavily in that category.

I think, and this is speculative, that there is a high chance that a first interaction with a Labour government as an adult pushes ‘centrist’ educated, earning reasonably 30 somethings to the right in a slightly different phenomenon to the generation below

[_Os_]

1. You can always count on quite a few Labour/Lib Dems/Greens voting for whoever has the best chance against the Tories. Which usually means Labour. In normal times you can give half the Greens number to Labour, not that these are normal times. That's what tactical voting is. That's why the Tories got so badly beaten in 2024. FPTP voting system means not many votes can have a disproportionate impact.
2. "Their loss of support is smaller but is still -10%", that's what I said. Labour's decline of 25% of their support, is obviously mitigated by the Tories losing 10% of theirs.
3. Tories are dying at a faster rate than Labour because their voter pool is older. The Tories are extremely unpopular with people age under 50, well beyond the "people move right as they get older" trend which doesn't look so true anymore. There's also the issue that they're literally called baby boomers, it's a large generation, which means replacing them vote for vote requires a larger percentage of the generations below them. A lot of this is just maths.

I said they were holding up well relative to how unpopular the Starmer government is, and that the reason was for a lot of people they're the least worst. Laughing at Labour doesn't really work when the point of a percentage is to measure something relative to something else, in other words how are the Tories doing?

A lot of this analysis rests on Labour/Lib Dem/Greens being sophisticated tactical voters and the 47% of the electorate expressing a preference for Tories and Reform during the new government's honeymoon period being lumpen idiots incapable of electoral calculus.

Not the same. Reform support includes people that simply oppose everything, people far to the right of Reform who regard the Tories as socialists and Frog Face as the least worst option (these are the people who think Tommy Ten Names should be a member and that maybe it would be better if Frog Face was removed for not being right wing enough), hardly Tory tactical voter material. Reform support also includes ex-Labour people who retain their hostility towards the Tories. There's a lot of very angry people in the Reform voter pool. There's polling done on people's second preferences, haven't seen anything recent, but on those numbers you're probably looking at something like 30%-35% open to voting Tory.

This is the mistake a lot of Tories are making, leaning into Reform thinking that's where the big win is. They've lost more to Labour/Lib Dems/Greens. Reform = 5 seats, Lib Dems = 72.

Also that Lib Dems voters are left wing, which does not seem to tally nicely with their current dominance in Soviet Henley, Amersham and Cheltenham.

The only successful large scale electoral pact we have seen was in 2019 between the Tories and a party led by Nigel Farage. Given that we currently have the Tories and a party led by Nigel Farage at 45-50%, it suggests quite the opposite of good news for Labour

It's anti-Tory tactical voting among a section of voters that oppose the Tories, political position (left/centre) doesn't matter. I know Cheltenham well enough, there's circa 5k Labour voters/potential Labour voters there, half of them vote Lib Dems because they have the better chance and the Labour party puts in zero effort there too.

2019 isn't a good example, because it involved the Brexit Party not standing candidates. Farage didn't trust his voters to vote tactically so didn't stand candidates where it would hurt the Tories. Including Cheltenham which likely would've been won by the Lib Dems if a Frog Face vehicle was on the ballot (less than 1k votes in it and UKIP had done a bit better than that there previously). A lot has changed since 2019 though, Reform didn't stand in 2024 either and the Lib Dems won easily. Tories have lost enough support to the Lib Dems in places where it counts to make a difference, cannot win them back by appealing to Reform (which likely has support in the same ballpark or below Labour in a place like Cheltenham).

[I like neeps]

Anecdotally, my early 20s niece has had a succession of alarmingly right wing boyfriends.

Yes the trend is backed up anecdotally and with data all across the democratic west, not just the UK.

Os talking about the Tories not getting under50s to vote them for is fine. But Reform will absolutely have male under50s voting for them. Wouldn't be surprised if on men without a college degree all ages next election reform won heavily in that category.

I think, and this is speculative, that there is a high chance that a first interaction with a Labour government as an adult pushes ‘centrist’ educated, earning reasonably 30 somethings to the right in a slightly different phenomenon to the generation below

Do they own a house? People go conservative generally when they own a house. Happily for Labour that's less common. Unhappily for Labour it's going to be less common at the next election too. So I think it'll be very interesting to see what happens.

[_Os_]

The other significant difference is that middle aged people are not moving to the right as they age in the same way that precious generations did.

Basically all the data I've seen and not just for the UK, is that for the overwhelming majority political choices are locked in after the early 30s. It takes something catastrophic to change them after that, and even then not for many.

This "people move to the right as they get older", meant someone in their teens compared to that same person in their late 20s/early 30s. Not that same person cracking on past 50.

[_Os_]

Os talking about the Tories not getting under50s to vote them for is fine. But Reform will absolutely have male under50s voting for them. Wouldn't be surprised if on men without a college degree all ages next election reform won heavily in that category.

But both men and women without tertiary education tend to be older. UKIP did well in that segment too. The difference between ages is also an education difference.

Probably not good for the Tories that a significant amount of young men like Reform. These are people who have spent a lot of the last 10 years absorbing online content far to the right of anything that's going to be helpful for the Tories. Nick Fuentes, Andrew Tate, and all the other clowns. To become useful for the Tories they'll actually need this group to move left of the Great Replacement Theory as they get older.

Worth looking at the actual numbers on all this. Among under 50s Labour is far ahead. Reform second, but not a close second. Tories fighting for third with the Lib Dems. Green fifth. The Tory vote is skewed towards retirees, and that's obviously a problem if they continue failing to win younger voters (using an extremely generous definition of "young").

[Paddington Bear]

‘Reform voters just oppose everything’ - is that any different to the Greens? Lib Dems? Pretty much all of us? That Reform voters oppose the status quo is blindingly obvious, and taking their political history back to UKIP, has been for some time. That some don’t consider their ultimate aims legitimate or feasible is fine, doesn’t mean they don’t have them.

Going back to the original point, Labour’s allegedly excellent 25% poll rating, the elephants in the room are 1) the half of voters voting for the right and 2) the 10% already peeled off from the mainstream left to the Greens (before spending cuts that are coming). It’s very possible Labour squeeze the Greens and defeat a divided right, but it is very hard to pretend they’re in a good position.

[Paddington Bear]

Yes the trend is backed up anecdotally and with data all across the democratic west, not just the UK.

Os talking about the Tories not getting under50s to vote them for is fine. But Reform will absolutely have male under50s voting for them. Wouldn't be surprised if on men without a college degree all ages next election reform won heavily in that category.

I think, and this is speculative, that there is a high chance that a first interaction with a Labour government as an adult pushes ‘centrist’ educated, earning reasonably 30 somethings to the right in a slightly different phenomenon to the generation below

Do they own a house? People go conservative generally when they own a house. Happily for Labour that's less common. Unhappily for Labour it's going to be less common at the next election too. So I think it'll be very interesting to see what happens.

I mean it less in that way and more in terms of the fact that people under 35 have no real adult memory of a Labour government, and the classic urge of having been young to dislike the incumbent government, and therefore in ‘soft’ terms being pro the opposition. This lean to Labour will diminish the longer they’re in government.

Labour did pretty well among educated late 20/early 30 somethings and I think you can already see some evidence of those people being pretty unimpressed with what Labour can offer in government

[_Os_]

‘Reform voters just oppose everything’ - is that any different to the Greens? Lib Dems? Pretty much all of us? That Reform voters oppose the status quo is blindingly obvious, and taking their political history back to UKIP, has been for some time. That some don’t consider their ultimate aims legitimate or feasible is fine, doesn’t mean they don’t have them.

Going back to the original point, Labour’s allegedly excellent 25% poll rating, the elephants in the room are 1) the half of voters voting for the right and 2) the 10% already peeled off from the mainstream left to the Greens (before spending cuts that are coming). It’s very possible Labour squeeze the Greens and defeat a divided right, but it is very hard to pretend they’re in a good position.

Who is more trenchant the NIMBY Green opposing green projects, or the EDL adjacent Reformist opposing Muslims? Tough questions tonight Mr.Bear.

For me there's levels to this and there's a segment of the Reform base that's basically beyond reason. Lib Dems are on the other end of the scale, the least in opposition to everything and the most open to pragmatic choices, they're fully capable of leaping from one position to something much weaker/stronger if not the exact opposite. There's value in just knowing what you're getting, so I'm not saying one is better than the other in all circumstances, only that one is more likely deploy their vote tactically.

I just posted Labour polling is doing quite well relative to the unpopularity of Starmer's government, when a list of parties is presented some people seem to think again. Comparisons to the past at best only partially work, because there's another party in the Lib Dem ballpark and another party in the Labour/Tory ballpark. Relying on that and a divided right is risky, but it is a strategy. I would be attacking Frog Face (I would say "more" but we're in "at all" territory), not as a bogeyman to be feared, but as another BoJo the clown with some added Truss. Labour must know if they concentrate on the Tories one outcome is boosting Reform.

[_Os_]

But both men and women without tertiary education tend to be older. UKIP did well in that segment too. The difference between ages is also an education difference.

Worth mentioning the age difference isn't only also an education difference, there's a race/ethnicity difference too. That YouGov poll does make an attempt to represent ethnic diversity (sample and weighting data on the last page), but the sample of voters who aren't white is far too small for anything on them in isolation. Typically when there's a rare poll of people who aren't white in isolation (proper sample size etc) the Tories do quite poorly.

To get an idea. 2021 census showed among over 65s, 93.6% are white (90.1% white British)., and a third of the white British population is over 65. At the other end in 2021 school pupils were 73% white (66% white British), and in 2019 births were 70% white (58% white British).

In the past it was a political matter if a party was perceived as racist, some/most would oppose that party on political grounds, but only 5%-ish would oppose that party because of their identity and something outside of everyday politics really. Not long from now that's going become 25%-ish out of reach for any party that smells a bit wrong on racial issues.

Jenrick isn't good for the Tories. Doesn't matter so much today, and maybe doesn't matter for Jenrick's leadership ambitions which he clearly hasn't give up on (could help him in that endeavour but I'm not convinced). But people remember and the Tories will eventually need large percentages of people who are young today, having an Enoch Powell tribute act on the loose is in the "smells a bit wrong" category. Reform are at sewerage plant levels of "smells a bit wrong".

If the conversation is winning younger voters to replace older voters then this will matter more than it seems today, the past is a foreign country and all that.

[Paddington Bear]

‘Reform voters just oppose everything’ - is that any different to the Greens? Lib Dems? Pretty much all of us? That Reform voters oppose the status quo is blindingly obvious, and taking their political history back to UKIP, has been for some time. That some don’t consider their ultimate aims legitimate or feasible is fine, doesn’t mean they don’t have them.

Going back to the original point, Labour’s allegedly excellent 25% poll rating, the elephants in the room are 1) the half of voters voting for the right and 2) the 10% already peeled off from the mainstream left to the Greens (before spending cuts that are coming). It’s very possible Labour squeeze the Greens and defeat a divided right, but it is very hard to pretend they’re in a good position.

Who is more trenchant the NIMBY Green opposing green projects, or the EDL adjacent Reformist opposing Muslims? Tough questions tonight Mr.Bear.

For me there's levels to this and there's a segment of the Reform base that's basically beyond reason.

These are things that reflect your own political prejudice rather than any serious attempt to analyse the situation.

[Biffer]

‘Reform voters just oppose everything’ - is that any different to the Greens? Lib Dems? Pretty much all of us? That Reform voters oppose the status quo is blindingly obvious, and taking their political history back to UKIP, has been for some time. That some don’t consider their ultimate aims legitimate or feasible is fine, doesn’t mean they don’t have them.

Going back to the original point, Labour’s allegedly excellent 25% poll rating, the elephants in the room are 1) the half of voters voting for the right and 2) the 10% already peeled off from the mainstream left to the Greens (before spending cuts that are coming). It’s very possible Labour squeeze the Greens and defeat a divided right, but it is very hard to pretend they’re in a good position.

Who is more trenchant the NIMBY Green opposing green projects, or the EDL adjacent Reformist opposing Muslims? Tough questions tonight Mr.Bear.

For me there's levels to this and there's a segment of the Reform base that's basically beyond reason.

These are things that reflect your own political prejudice rather than any serious attempt to analyse the situation.

Find a mirror fella.

[Paddington Bear]

Who is more trenchant the NIMBY Green opposing green projects, or the EDL adjacent Reformist opposing Muslims? Tough questions tonight Mr.Bear.

For me there's levels to this and there's a segment of the Reform base that's basically beyond reason.

These are things that reflect your own political prejudice rather than any serious attempt to analyse the situation.

Find a mirror fella.

Not really, 25% is clearly desperate for a governing party and I’ve explained how I agree Labour can still find a way to win against a divided right. I haven’t pretended 20% is a good thing nor decided that a chunk of the electorate are beyond reason.

[Sandstorm]

I completely ignore polling figures 6-12 months after any party takes power anywhere. The media's honeymoon is over, voters haven't got their unicorns and are looking for someone to blame.

[Yeeb]

Who is more trenchant the NIMBY Green opposing green projects, or the EDL adjacent Reformist opposing Muslims? Tough questions tonight Mr.Bear.

For me there's levels to this and there's a segment of the Reform base that's basically beyond reason.

These are things that reflect your own political prejudice rather than any serious attempt to analyse the situation.

Find a mirror fella.

[I like neeps]

I think, and this is speculative, that there is a high chance that a first interaction with a Labour government as an adult pushes ‘centrist’ educated, earning reasonably 30 somethings to the right in a slightly different phenomenon to the generation below

Do they own a house? People go conservative generally when they own a house. Happily for Labour that's less common. Unhappily for Labour it's going to be less common at the next election too. So I think it'll be very interesting to see what happens.

I mean it less in that way and more in terms of the fact that people under 35 have no real adult memory of a Labour government, and the classic urge of having been young to dislike the incumbent government, and therefore in ‘soft’ terms being pro the opposition. This lean to Labour will diminish the longer they’re in government.

Labour did pretty well among educated late 20/early 30 somethings and I think you can already see some evidence of those people being pretty unimpressed with what Labour can offer in government

I don't know if the Tories will win them back considering the current state of the party is competing with Reform not coming up with a governing platform that is aimed at working professionals.

Sunak/Cameron type would have a batter chance.

[Paddington Bear]

Do they own a house? People go conservative generally when they own a house. Happily for Labour that's less common. Unhappily for Labour it's going to be less common at the next election too. So I think it'll be very interesting to see what happens.

I mean it less in that way and more in terms of the fact that people under 35 have no real adult memory of a Labour government, and the classic urge of having been young to dislike the incumbent government, and therefore in ‘soft’ terms being pro the opposition. This lean to Labour will diminish the longer they’re in government.

Labour did pretty well among educated late 20/early 30 somethings and I think you can already see some evidence of those people being pretty unimpressed with what Labour can offer in government

I don't know if the Tories will win them back considering the current state of the party is competing with Reform not coming up with a governing platform that is aimed at working professionals.

Sunak/Cameron type would have a batter chance.

As I say it is speculative. Certainly particularly young men are not overtly left wing and will listen to alternatives from the right (a lot already do through Rogan etc, even going up a notch on the intellectual scale someone like Dominic Sandbrook is very popular among these types etc). We’ll find out in a few years how they vote

[Biffer]

There was some polling and analysis a while back which suggested the last fifteen years of austerity and brexit might have had a similar impact on the Conservatives that the late sixties and seventies had on Labour, establishing a cohort of 'never tory' beyond the normal range, in the same way there's a cohort of the older generation who are 'never Labour'. I posted it somewhere way back in the thread but can't be arsed looking for it. From what I remember there was an acknowledgment that there's always a certain number on both sides who'll never vote for anyone else, but that number was increased by 5-10% off the back of the industrial decline/energy crisis/three day week stuff. Their analysis suggested a similar thing might have happened recently to the generation currently in their 30s and 40s.

[Paddington Bear]

There was some polling and analysis a while back which suggested the last fifteen years of austerity and brexit might have had a similar impact on the Conservatives that the late sixties and seventies had on Labour, establishing a cohort of 'never tory' beyond the normal range, in the same way there's a cohort of the older generation who are 'never Labour'. I posted it somewhere way back in the thread but can't be arsed looking for it. From what I remember there was an acknowledgment that there's always a certain number on both sides who'll never vote for anyone else, but that number was increased by 5-10% off the back of the industrial decline/energy crisis/three day week stuff. Their analysis suggested a similar thing might have happened recently to the generation currently in their 30s and 40s.

There is definitely something to this and even a pretty natural Tory like myself has enormous reservations about them (and did not vote for them last time out). I have two caveats to it:

1) I used ‘listen to the right’ rather than Tories deliberately. Reform do pretty well among very young voters. Farage is pretty toxic to a fair proportion of millennials but he won’t be around forever/has been quite successful at turning himself into an online banter merchant so I wouldn’t guarantee that’s a fixed position if Labour can’t improve people’s prospects

2) Thatcher followed a Labour government, of which there was some consensus among the group you’re talking about that they were incompetent, and her government made them rich (to be clear I do not need explanations of Thatcher’s impact outside of the SE etc etc). I don’t think Starmer will be able to repeat the trick, if he does manage to grow the economy and create a generation of homeowners though he’ll have locked Labour into government for a generation. I think it’s really unlikely though.

[I like neeps]

There was some polling and analysis a while back which suggested the last fifteen years of austerity and brexit might have had a similar impact on the Conservatives that the late sixties and seventies had on Labour, establishing a cohort of 'never tory' beyond the normal range, in the same way there's a cohort of the older generation who are 'never Labour'. I posted it somewhere way back in the thread but can't be arsed looking for it. From what I remember there was an acknowledgment that there's always a certain number on both sides who'll never vote for anyone else, but that number was increased by 5-10% off the back of the industrial decline/energy crisis/three day week stuff. Their analysis suggested a similar thing might have happened recently to the generation currently in their 30s and 40s.

There is definitely something to this and even a pretty natural Tory like myself has enormous reservations about them (and did not vote for them last time out). I have two caveats to it:

1) I used ‘listen to the right’ rather than Tories deliberately. Reform do pretty well among very young voters. Farage is pretty toxic to a fair proportion of millennials but he won’t be around forever/has been quite successful at turning himself into an online banter merchant so I wouldn’t guarantee that’s a fixed position if Labour can’t improve people’s prospects

2) Thatcher followed a Labour government, of which there was some consensus among the group you’re talking about that they were incompetent, and her government made them rich (to be clear I do not need explanations of Thatcher’s impact outside of the SE etc etc). I don’t think Starmer will be able to repeat the trick, if he does manage to grow the economy and create a generation of homeowners though he’ll have locked Labour into government for a generation. I think it’s really unlikely though.

I agree completely with this.

Reform will do very well with young men, university educated young men less so but they're not going to be Labour for life if Labour don't improve their material circumstances (which as you say is very unlikely).

And Badenoch and no Tory currently is a Thatcher pro economy type as they're in the pocket of the pensioners.

There just really is a lot of people who will be quote u quote politically homeless if Labour don't deliver. Which as you say, is unlikely.

[Yeeb]

Takes a special kind of thick bigot who would never vote for a party for historical reasons. Never voting for a certain person or policies, that’s fine, but say Blair labour v Corbyn Labour, or Thatcher Tory V Sunak version , they are totally different situations, policies , and people at the top.
It’s quite sad that very few people vote about policies , it’s just for ‘their team’ or what they believe on the side of a bus or on their favourite ex footballer insta.

[Stranger]

Takes a special kind of thick bigot who would never vote for a party for historical reasons. Never voting for a certain person or policies, that’s fine, but say Blair labour v Corbyn Labour, or Thatcher Tory V Sunak version , they are totally different situations, policies , and people at the top.
It’s quite sad that very few people vote about policies , it’s just for ‘their team’ or what they believe on the side of a bus or on their favourite ex footballer insta.

If we remove the words thick bigot I agree with that

[Yeeb]

Takes a special kind of thick bigot who would never vote for a party for historical reasons. Never voting for a certain person or policies, that’s fine, but say Blair labour v Corbyn Labour, or Thatcher Tory V Sunak version , they are totally different situations, policies , and people at the top.
It’s quite sad that very few people vote about policies , it’s just for ‘their team’ or what they believe on the side of a bus or on their favourite ex footballer insta.

If we remove the words thick bigot I agree with that

Am using literal meaning of bigot , I’ve never met one I wouldn’t classify as thick tbh

[Deepsouth]

People are going to throw back to Truss in the same way they do to Nixon in the USA

I hope not. Already one of five eyes are comprised.

We do not not two...

[Biffer]

Nobody talking about how the FTSE 100 hit an all time high today?