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All those guys are on the list of those capped since 2010.Margin__Walker wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:31 am There's always tons of hypocrisy in these discussions, but 'in the last team years or so' is doing some heavy lifting with a few of those names BM.
It's hard for us to ignore when we are the ones that are constantly the focus of the argument and many of the guys accused of being poached also have Scottish heritage. The current claim that 23 of our current squad are poaches is ridiculous when you look at some of the players they include.SaintK wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:08 amEvery top tier rfugby playing country does it, you guys take this all too personally.Yr Alban wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:56 pm There’s also the players who were born overseas but nobody cares, like Arundell (Cyprus) and Marcus Smith (the Philippines). In Scotland’s case these players are counted as ‘foreign born’ - Kyle Rowe and Cam Redpath, for example - because the narrative is that all of our players have to be poached.
You can add Undrerhill (born in USA) and Launchbury (born in Hong Kong) to your list
Oh and in the previous list of England poaches above, at least 4 of them have English mothers. There were also some absolute shite poachees amongst them as well.
This is the crux of it. It’s not about individuals - as has been said, nobody is really arguing about Redpath, when his dad was Scotland captain. It’s the generalisation - when there are repeated articles about how ‘over half’ of our squad ‘weren’t born in Scotland’, when about half of the players in question qualify via a parent who was, which is hardly bending the spirit of the rules.Blackmac wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:30 amIt's hard for us to ignore when we are the ones that are constantly the focus of the argument and many of the guys accused of being poached also have Scottish heritage. The current claim that 23 of our current squad are poaches is ridiculous when you look at some of the players they include.SaintK wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:08 amEvery top tier rfugby playing country does it, you guys take this all too personally.Yr Alban wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:56 pm There’s also the players who were born overseas but nobody cares, like Arundell (Cyprus) and Marcus Smith (the Philippines). In Scotland’s case these players are counted as ‘foreign born’ - Kyle Rowe and Cam Redpath, for example - because the narrative is that all of our players have to be poached.
You can add Undrerhill (born in USA) and Launchbury (born in Hong Kong) to your list
Oh and in the previous list of England poaches above, at least 4 of them have English mothers. There were also some absolute shite poachees amongst them as well.
Just suck it up guys.Yr Alban wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 11:34 amThis is the crux of it. It’s not about individuals - as has been said, nobody is really arguing about Redpath, when his dad was Scotland captain. It’s the generalisation - when there are repeated articles about how ‘over half’ of our squad ‘weren’t born in Scotland’, when about half of the players in question qualify via a parent who was, which is hardly bending the spirit of the rules.Blackmac wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:30 amIt's hard for us to ignore when we are the ones that are constantly the focus of the argument and many of the guys accused of being poached also have Scottish heritage. The current claim that 23 of our current squad are poaches is ridiculous when you look at some of the players they include.SaintK wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:08 am
Every top tier rfugby playing country does it, you guys take this all too personally.
You can add Undrerhill (born in USA) and Launchbury (born in Hong Kong) to your list
Oh and in the previous list of England poaches above, at least 4 of them have English mothers. There were also some absolute shite poachees amongst them as well.
Who's claiming this? If it's just one nutjob in the torygraph you might be better off just ignoring him completely. No-one on here seems to give a stuff about it.Blackmac wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:30 amIt's hard for us to ignore when we are the ones that are constantly the focus of the argument and many of the guys accused of being poached also have Scottish heritage. The current claim that 23 of our current squad are poaches is ridiculous when you look at some of the players they include.SaintK wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:08 amEvery top tier rfugby playing country does it, you guys take this all too personally.Yr Alban wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:56 pm There’s also the players who were born overseas but nobody cares, like Arundell (Cyprus) and Marcus Smith (the Philippines). In Scotland’s case these players are counted as ‘foreign born’ - Kyle Rowe and Cam Redpath, for example - because the narrative is that all of our players have to be poached.
You can add Undrerhill (born in USA) and Launchbury (born in Hong Kong) to your list
Oh and in the previous list of England poaches above, at least 4 of them have English mothers. There were also some absolute shite poachees amongst them as well.
This before the world cupinactionman wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 11:47 amWho's claiming this? If it's just one nutjob in the torygraph you might be better off just ignoring him completely. No-one on here seems to give a stuff about it.Blackmac wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:30 amIt's hard for us to ignore when we are the ones that are constantly the focus of the argument and many of the guys accused of being poached also have Scottish heritage. The current claim that 23 of our current squad are poaches is ridiculous when you look at some of the players they include.SaintK wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:08 am
Every top tier rfugby playing country does it, you guys take this all too personally.
You can add Undrerhill (born in USA) and Launchbury (born in Hong Kong) to your list
Oh and in the previous list of England poaches above, at least 4 of them have English mothers. There were also some absolute shite poachees amongst them as well.
He put in some kicks over the top.Slick wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:33 pm Jamie Dobbie looks a bit of shadow of the player he was a couple of years back
Not enjoying the Glasgow lineout.Slick wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:33 pm Quite enjoying the ref in the Glasgow game, sympathetic to the the conditions and letting small things slide for both teams.
Jamie Dobbie looks a bit of shadow of the player he was a couple of years back
Just for some perspectivedpedin wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 5:26 pm Makes a change watching two Scottish teams play poorly yet still win their games! Conditions didnt help either team to be fair but a win is a win!
On reflection that was a bit harsh from me, but the snap in his play has gone a bit and seems to be winding up a lot of passes. I was convinced he was the next Scotland 9, and he still can be, but needs to up his game
At the end of this weekend I think that Glasgow will be third and Edinburgh fourth - but it’s really tight, tenth place will be four points behind Edinburgh.Dogbert wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 5:53 pmJust for some perspectivedpedin wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 5:26 pm Makes a change watching two Scottish teams play poorly yet still win their games! Conditions didnt help either team to be fair but a win is a win!
So Benetton haven't lost at home for practically a year, Glasgow haven't won there since 2020 , playing mostly a second string team in awful conditions - They stand 2nd in the league.
Glasgow played really smart rugby in the conditions - pretty good to be Glasgow fan at the moment
And Glasgow could lose their next game, and Edinburgh could win their next game with a bonus point , and still be behind Glasgow.Biffer wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 6:38 pmAt the end of this weekend I think that Glasgow will be third and Edinburgh fourth - but it’s really tight, tenth place will be four points behind Edinburgh.Dogbert wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 5:53 pmJust for some perspectivedpedin wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 5:26 pm Makes a change watching two Scottish teams play poorly yet still win their games! Conditions didnt help either team to be fair but a win is a win!
So Benetton haven't lost at home for practically a year, Glasgow haven't won there since 2020 , playing mostly a second string team in awful conditions - They stand 2nd in the league.
Glasgow played really smart rugby in the conditions - pretty good to be Glasgow fan at the moment
That’s a pretty big exception, and the thing to remember is the first count back if you’re tied on points is number of wins.Tichtheid wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:27 pm With Leinster's game still to come against Cardiff, Embra have the same number of wins as the top three, but we are six points adrift due to us not getting BPs.
If that play eventually comes on the back of grinding out the wins then I'll take that, even if it takes till next season. There is a new coach there and almost the same players were ripping open defences under Mike Blair, with the big exception of Kinghorn of course.
Biffer wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:09 pmThat’s a pretty big exception, and the thing to remember is the first count back if you’re tied on points is number of wins.Tichtheid wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:27 pm With Leinster's game still to come against Cardiff, Embra have the same number of wins as the top three, but we are six points adrift due to us not getting BPs.
If that play eventually comes on the back of grinding out the wins then I'll take that, even if it takes till next season. There is a new coach there and almost the same players were ripping open defences under Mike Blair, with the big exception of Kinghorn of course.
Of course those same players were also regularly getting ripped apart by opposing teams as well.
He was decent.Slick wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:33 pm Quite enjoying the ref in the Glasgow game, sympathetic to the the conditions and letting small things slide for both teams.
Jamie Dobbie looks a bit of shadow of the player he was a couple of years back
That confused me too, can anyone clarify.KingBlairhorn wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:00 pmHe was decent.Slick wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:33 pm Quite enjoying the ref in the Glasgow game, sympathetic to the the conditions and letting small things slide for both teams.
Jamie Dobbie looks a bit of shadow of the player he was a couple of years back
There was one call he made that really confused me though, possibly as I don’t know the law properly. Maybe someone can clarify. Glasgow had attempted a choke tackle and the ref called tackle, Glasgow then released and the player ran on making another 2 or 3 meters. The ref shouted not held. I couldn’t work out how it could be possible that the tackle was completed but the attacker was not held in that situation? Surely any attempt to continue to hold/tackle him would have been a penalty. Does the tackled player in that situation have to go to ground or release the ball if they want to keep going? What should Glasgow have done in that situation, or did the ref make a mistake?
Also, as it hasn’t been mentioned, the McKay 50-22 might have been the best I have ever seen. Caught the ball in the air when it was out of play to avoid an attacking line out in his own 22, and booted in down the line for an attacking line out in their 22. Majestic.
Last season, Michael Todd was getting a bit of criticism as our defence coach. That seems to have gone away.Biffer wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:09 pmThat’s a pretty big exception, and the thing to remember is the first count back if you’re tied on points is number of wins.Tichtheid wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:27 pm With Leinster's game still to come against Cardiff, Embra have the same number of wins as the top three, but we are six points adrift due to us not getting BPs.
If that play eventually comes on the back of grinding out the wins then I'll take that, even if it takes till next season. There is a new coach there and almost the same players were ripping open defences under Mike Blair, with the big exception of Kinghorn of course.
Of course those same players were also regularly getting ripped apart by opposing teams as well.
It was a lot easier to get bonus points last year when they were LBPsTichtheid wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:17 pmBiffer wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:09 pmThat’s a pretty big exception, and the thing to remember is the first count back if you’re tied on points is number of wins.Tichtheid wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:27 pm With Leinster's game still to come against Cardiff, Embra have the same number of wins as the top three, but we are six points adrift due to us not getting BPs.
If that play eventually comes on the back of grinding out the wins then I'll take that, even if it takes till next season. There is a new coach there and almost the same players were ripping open defences under Mike Blair, with the big exception of Kinghorn of course.
Of course those same players were also regularly getting ripped apart by opposing teams as well.
Aye, but the first count is league points. Last season 9 wins got the Sharks a top 8 finish and Big Cup rugby. They had 10 BPs, we had 14 last year, we've got 2 so far.
Yes, would be disappointing if they could not get that from where they are now. Leinster and the Bulls still have to play each other, so there's a real opportunity to finish in the top-2 and secure a home SF (obviously without hitting a Munster-red brick wall in the quarters first, like last year).Biffer wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:24 pm Four wins and three bonus points will, I think, be enough for Edinburgh to get a top eight spot. That’d be 53 points, Away to Sharks, Home to Scarlets, Home to Zebre, away to Cardiff all very winnable. Other games are away to Stormers, home to Munster, away to Bennetton.
Glasgow have five very winnable games - Zebre H&A, Sharks H, Scarlets A, Cardiff H plus their two game shift in SA. So should be well set for a home QF I think.
Glasgow should be on for a home semi it has been a relatively straight forward fixture list and they've taken advantage.clydecloggie wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 8:57 amYes, would be disappointing if they could not get that from where they are now. Leinster and the Bulls still have to play each other, so there's a real opportunity to finish in the top-2 and secure a home SF (obviously without hitting a Munster-red brick wall in the quarters first, like last year).Biffer wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:24 pm Four wins and three bonus points will, I think, be enough for Edinburgh to get a top eight spot. That’d be 53 points, Away to Sharks, Home to Scarlets, Home to Zebre, away to Cardiff all very winnable. Other games are away to Stormers, home to Munster, away to Bennetton.
Glasgow have five very winnable games - Zebre H&A, Sharks H, Scarlets A, Cardiff H plus their two game shift in SA. So should be well set for a home QF I think.
Big D wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:58 amGlasgow should be on for a home semi it has been a relatively straight forward fixture list and they've taken advantage.clydecloggie wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 8:57 amYes, would be disappointing if they could not get that from where they are now. Leinster and the Bulls still have to play each other, so there's a real opportunity to finish in the top-2 and secure a home SF (obviously without hitting a Munster-red brick wall in the quarters first, like last year).Biffer wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:24 pm Four wins and three bonus points will, I think, be enough for Edinburgh to get a top eight spot. That’d be 53 points, Away to Sharks, Home to Scarlets, Home to Zebre, away to Cardiff all very winnable. Other games are away to Stormers, home to Munster, away to Bennetton.
Glasgow have five very winnable games - Zebre H&A, Sharks H, Scarlets A, Cardiff H plus their two game shift in SA. So should be well set for a home QF I think.
This is why I would have held off giving Everitt a new deal. This season has seen the South Africans as poor as they've been for a while and the Welsh clubs in crisis really. It is as soft a start as any Edinburgh coach will ever have had. Most Edinburgh coached teams have some sort of bounce in the 1st season but given how poor the South African and Welsh sides have been and the advantage they have by playing Zebre twice then a home QF for Edinburgh should be achievable for a side regularly putting out teams with 10+ internationals in it. Waiting until April shouldn't have been an issue.
To be clear, not suggesting there should be some asterix there but that expectations should be adjusted relative to competition when assessing whether new contracts are merited. So, if the QFs were missed, that would almost certainly be a failure IMO. After seeing Cockerill and then Blair (starting from a much lower point IMO) get a bounce and then falter, I am a bit more cautious now that I was before when rushing into multi year deals.Tichtheid wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 11:17 amBig D wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:58 amGlasgow should be on for a home semi it has been a relatively straight forward fixture list and they've taken advantage.clydecloggie wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 8:57 am
Yes, would be disappointing if they could not get that from where they are now. Leinster and the Bulls still have to play each other, so there's a real opportunity to finish in the top-2 and secure a home SF (obviously without hitting a Munster-red brick wall in the quarters first, like last year).
This is why I would have held off giving Everitt a new deal. This season has seen the South Africans as poor as they've been for a while and the Welsh clubs in crisis really. It is as soft a start as any Edinburgh coach will ever have had. Most Edinburgh coached teams have some sort of bounce in the 1st season but given how poor the South African and Welsh sides have been and the advantage they have by playing Zebre twice then a home QF for Edinburgh should be achievable for a side regularly putting out teams with 10+ internationals in it. Waiting until April shouldn't have been an issue.
I'm on the fence regarding Everitt being given an extension so soon. Looking back he has the best winning percentage of any Sharks coach bar Jake White and White was only there for a year according to Wiki. Everitt's record at Edinburgh is way better than Mike Blair's second season in charge and one more win gives as the same as MB's first season - albeit we chalked up 8 try bonus points and 4 losing BPs in that term.
I'm a bit wary of casting the South African and Welsh teams as being poor, no one seems to give previous winners or even Big Cup qualifiers the asterisk that Edinburgh were a soft touch, same with Scotland in the 6N, yeah Wales are poor at the moment, but they had easy games against Scotland for many years and it didn't downgrade their achievements, you play what's in front of you, we can't control the standard of other teams.
Going back to Everitt, we were porous in defence last season, this year we've conceded 9 tries in the league, that puts us 5th in that category (Glasgow's is a remarkable 3 tries conceded). Everitt is supposedly an attack coach. To be fair there have been times before Christmas that I thought our handling was far superior to anything I've seen for Edinburgh
The Bulls are leading the attack stats at the moment, but Edinburgh are close by most metrics over the eleven games - we've beaten more defenders, we are are one line break per game behind, one offload per game behind, 3m gained with ball in hand behind per game. However, the Bulls have scored nearly double the number of tries.
I haven't had the feeling that we've played particularly well in the vast majority of games so far, those sats don't tell the full story by half. I do look at the game through rose tinted spectacles, I freely admit it, but I think we are close, on Friday for example we barely had any period where we went through the phases and the one or two times Big Bill made a carry he smashed the defender and gave us great go-forward, then we went back to playing without the ball.
I'm skiving from decorating at the moment, so I should get back to it.
I can't say I agree. Edinburgh were fairly tentative with Everitt in the first place with the initial 1-year deal, when coaches in pro rugby normally come in on much more stable terms. The team has at least met the minimum requirement in terms of results but more importantly the SRU/Embra management have had the opportunity to see Everitt's working methods and cultural fit in action and have more information to decide whether there is any value in persisting with the arrangement. He is presumably not a Cockerill mk2. So, if the soft factors were all good then it makes sense to continue with Everitt in place.Big D wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:58 amGlasgow should be on for a home semi it has been a relatively straight forward fixture list and they've taken advantage.clydecloggie wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 8:57 amYes, would be disappointing if they could not get that from where they are now. Leinster and the Bulls still have to play each other, so there's a real opportunity to finish in the top-2 and secure a home SF (obviously without hitting a Munster-red brick wall in the quarters first, like last year).Biffer wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:24 pm Four wins and three bonus points will, I think, be enough for Edinburgh to get a top eight spot. That’d be 53 points, Away to Sharks, Home to Scarlets, Home to Zebre, away to Cardiff all very winnable. Other games are away to Stormers, home to Munster, away to Bennetton.
Glasgow have five very winnable games - Zebre H&A, Sharks H, Scarlets A, Cardiff H plus their two game shift in SA. So should be well set for a home QF I think.
This is why I would have held off giving Everitt a new deal. This season has seen the South Africans as poor as they've been for a while and the Welsh clubs in crisis really. It is as soft a start as any Edinburgh coach will ever have had. Most Edinburgh coached teams have some sort of bounce in the 1st season but given how poor the South African and Welsh sides have been and the advantage they have by playing Zebre twice then a home QF for Edinburgh should be achievable for a side regularly putting out teams with 10+ internationals in it. Waiting until April shouldn't have been an issue.
Yeah, recruitment for next year will have already started, and players who are signing extensions will want to know what they’re signing up for.robmatic wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 5:51 pmI can't say I agree. Edinburgh were fairly tentative with Everitt in the first place with the initial 1-year deal, when coaches in pro rugby normally come in on much more stable terms. The team has at least met the minimum requirement in terms of results but more importantly the SRU/Embra management have had the opportunity to see Everitt's working methods and cultural fit in action and have more information to decide whether there is any value in persisting with the arrangement. He is presumably not a Cockerill mk2. So, if the soft factors were all good then it makes sense to continue with Everitt in place.Big D wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:58 amGlasgow should be on for a home semi it has been a relatively straight forward fixture list and they've taken advantage.clydecloggie wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 8:57 am
Yes, would be disappointing if they could not get that from where they are now. Leinster and the Bulls still have to play each other, so there's a real opportunity to finish in the top-2 and secure a home SF (obviously without hitting a Munster-red brick wall in the quarters first, like last year).
This is why I would have held off giving Everitt a new deal. This season has seen the South Africans as poor as they've been for a while and the Welsh clubs in crisis really. It is as soft a start as any Edinburgh coach will ever have had. Most Edinburgh coached teams have some sort of bounce in the 1st season but given how poor the South African and Welsh sides have been and the advantage they have by playing Zebre twice then a home QF for Edinburgh should be achievable for a side regularly putting out teams with 10+ internationals in it. Waiting until April shouldn't have been an issue.
The alternative - holding off the renewal until April - is not really tenable when I would expect many of the decisions about next year's squad to already have been made by this time of year.
Big D wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:02 pm.
I think you used the conference tries against? I do agree the defence has been a lot closer to what it needs to be for a top 8 side.
Why was Sutherland not there in the first place? Anyone know?westport wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:52 am Javan Sebastion, Suzz, Marshall Sykes and James Dobie called up to the squad with Sione, Alex Craig and WP out of the squad
He’s not been holding a starting place down at Oyannax, bench mostly. Hasn’t been in the 23 much since January.