Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:22 am
Who made that skit?
Saffers I reckon, judging by the bird's accent.
When I asked the question I genuinely didn’t know, but the script on the top of the screen was a hint. It turns out it was made by an Israeli broadcasting company called Keshet.
Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:22 am
Who made that skit?
Saffers I reckon, judging by the bird's accent.
When I asked the question I genuinely didn’t know, but the script on the top of the screen was a hint. It turns out it was made by an Israeli broadcasting company called Keshet.
Fearless journalism.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2024 7:07 pm
by petej
The BBC and all news orgs would do better at times if they reported slower which would give them the time to verify that information is accurate even if that takes them days to do so.
Edit-they would also look less stupid.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2024 7:27 pm
by Hugo
Calculon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:30 am
The shift is also motivated by what Arnold Kling called the civilisation v barbarism axis. Kling talked of the ‘three-axes model of political communication’ and wrote: ‘A progressive will communicate along the oppressor-oppressed axis, framing issues in terms of the (P) dichotomy. A conservative will communicate along the civilization-barbarism axis, framing issues in terms of the (C) dichotomy. A libertarian will communicate along the liberty-coercion axis, framing issues in terms of the (L) dichotomy.’
On the Holy Land, Kling wrote, ‘Along the conservative civilization-barbarism axis, the focus is on the way that Israeli values align with American values. Conservatives emphasize the nihilism of Palestinian terrorism. To support Israel is to defend civilization.
I understand that Kling is referencing the conservative position rather than claiming it as his own but to begin with it seems like a falsehood to frame American/Israeli values as emblematic of civilisation. The United States (by itself) has probably committed more inter-civilisational atrocities than anyone else.
Consider the near total annihilation of the Native Americans, the bombing of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Koreans and Vietnamese and the 4+ million death toll of the War on Terror. The longstanding mistreatment of blacks could also be thrown in there for good measure.
If you broaden the US to include the west at large you can consider the crimes committed by the European fascist regimes of the 20th century, all the atrocities committed in Africa (us in Kenya in the 50s, the French in Algeria, Germans in Namibia and so on and so forth) and the Spanish in Latin America etc.
This idea that westerners form their own distinct subspecies of humanity, one that is extraordinarily civilised and less barbaric than the rest of mankind is incredibly narcissistic and tbh completely deluded.
This idea that westerners form their own distinct subspecies of humanity, one that is extraordinarily civilised and less barbaric than the rest of mankind is incredibly narcissistic and tbh completely deluded.
yup
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:31 pm
by Sandstorm
petej wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 7:07 pm
The BBC and all news orgs would do better at times if they reported slower which would give them the time to verify that information is accurate even if that takes them days to do so.
Edit-they would also look less stupid.
Have you noticed that 24 hour BBC News program is now called Verified Live. I don’t think they are even being ironic.
petej wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 7:07 pm
The BBC and all news orgs would do better at times if they reported slower which would give them the time to verify that information is accurate even if that takes them days to do so.
Edit-they would also look less stupid.
Have you noticed that 24 hour BBC News program is now called Verified Live. I don’t think they are even being ironic.
As long as they check every guest and presenter for a pulse, seems legit.
Calculon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:30 am
The shift is also motivated by what Arnold Kling called the civilisation v barbarism axis. Kling talked of the ‘three-axes model of political communication’ and wrote: ‘A progressive will communicate along the oppressor-oppressed axis, framing issues in terms of the (P) dichotomy. A conservative will communicate along the civilization-barbarism axis, framing issues in terms of the (C) dichotomy. A libertarian will communicate along the liberty-coercion axis, framing issues in terms of the (L) dichotomy.’
On the Holy Land, Kling wrote, ‘Along the conservative civilization-barbarism axis, the focus is on the way that Israeli values align with American values. Conservatives emphasize the nihilism of Palestinian terrorism. To support Israel is to defend civilization.
I understand that Kling is referencing the conservative position rather than claiming it as his own but to begin with it seems like a falsehood to frame American/Israeli values as emblematic of civilisation. The United States (by itself) has probably committed more inter-civilisational atrocities than anyone else.
Consider the near total annihilation of the Native Americans, the bombing of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Koreans and Vietnamese and the 4+ million death toll of the War on Terror. The longstanding mistreatment of blacks could also be thrown in there for good measure.
If you broaden the US to include the west at large you can consider the crimes committed by the European fascist regimes of the 20th century, all the atrocities committed in Africa (us in Kenya in the 50s, the French in Algeria, Germans in Namibia and so on and so forth) and the Spanish in Latin America etc.
This idea that westerners form their own distinct subspecies of humanity, one that is extraordinarily civilised and less barbaric than the rest of mankind is incredibly narcissistic and tbh completely deluded.
I think the position he is ascribing to them is a bit more nuanced in that it's Liberal Democracies, as imperfect as they are in the case of Israel and the US, as opposed to Islamic fundamentalist totalitarian governments, like the ones in Gaza, or Iran.
Calculon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:30 am
The shift is also motivated by what Arnold Kling called the civilisation v barbarism axis. Kling talked of the ‘three-axes model of political communication’ and wrote: ‘A progressive will communicate along the oppressor-oppressed axis, framing issues in terms of the (P) dichotomy. A conservative will communicate along the civilization-barbarism axis, framing issues in terms of the (C) dichotomy. A libertarian will communicate along the liberty-coercion axis, framing issues in terms of the (L) dichotomy.’
On the Holy Land, Kling wrote, ‘Along the conservative civilization-barbarism axis, the focus is on the way that Israeli values align with American values. Conservatives emphasize the nihilism of Palestinian terrorism. To support Israel is to defend civilization.
I understand that Kling is referencing the conservative position rather than claiming it as his own but to begin with it seems like a falsehood to frame American/Israeli values as emblematic of civilisation. The United States (by itself) has probably committed more inter-civilisational atrocities than anyone else.
Consider the near total annihilation of the Native Americans, the bombing of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Koreans and Vietnamese and the 4+ million death toll of the War on Terror. The longstanding mistreatment of blacks could also be thrown in there for good measure.
If you broaden the US to include the west at large you can consider the crimes committed by the European fascist regimes of the 20th century, all the atrocities committed in Africa (us in Kenya in the 50s, the French in Algeria, Germans in Namibia and so on and so forth) and the Spanish in Latin America etc.
This idea that westerners form their own distinct subspecies of humanity, one that is extraordinarily civilised and less barbaric than the rest of mankind is incredibly narcissistic and tbh completely deluded.
I think the position he is ascribing to them is a bit more nuanced in that it's Liberal Democracies, as imperfect as they are in the case of Israel and the US, as opposed to Islamic fundamentalist totalitarian governments, like the ones in Gaza, or Iran.
Exactly, it's imperative that we must defend a democracies right to commit atrocities. It's the only way we can further the universally respected rules based international order.
Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:23 am
The BBC is regularly found to be one of the most unbiased news sources in the world, along with AP, Reuters etc.
If they report things you don't agree with, it doesn't make them biased, the bias is in the reader. They get a lot of dung thrown at them from the left as well as from the right
edit, although it's true that domestically the BBC news section has had a lot of appointees who are friends or sympathetic to the Tories, and that might well reflect their editorial policy, having said that, Nick Robinson, the guy who was at Oxford with Cameron and Johnson etc, and was in the Tory students association there, in fact I think he led it, he's been getting a bit better at holding this bunch of shits, sorry, current government ministers to account
It’s nothing to do with agreeing with them, everything with them getting it factually wrong, and always on the side of Hamas. Reporting that Israel bombed a hospital with over 500 casualties when it was a Hamas rocket that burned out the hospital’s carpark, falsely reporting that Israel was targeting Arab medics in Al Shifa hospital. Conveniently not reporting when a rocket hit a school in Gaza because it was known to be a Hamas rocket.
As I’ve stated before their coverage of the Covid pandemic in SA was a joke, but I don’t care how they cover the sacks of shits that make up the Tory government, or for that matter their sycophantic coverage of the Royal Family when the queen died. They're still useful as a news ticker though
You've set out your stall, you are akin to a religious fanatic. Zero chance of seeing the other side of the discussion.
I didn't post that to convince you because I know there is no chance of that, I posted it to show that among sensible people the BBC is held to be an unbiased news source.
another example of the BBC's shiteness
compare these two pieces about the same study, BBC one is shoddily written and doesn't even give you a link to the original article.
Just so we are talking about the same thing, what do you regard as shoddy in the BBC article compared to the Reuters one?
The BBC article refers to four studies, the link they provide goes to one of them, the one Reuters link to is on the side bar along with the others of the four.
if you Google "What are the most trustworthy news organisations in the world", or variants of that, it's always the same players that come up, Reuters, AP, NYT, BBC, PBS etc
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:54 pm
by C69
Nice to see Israeli politicians spreading propaganda calling SA the legal arm of HAMAS.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2024 7:15 pm
by Hugo
C69 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:54 pm
Nice to see Israeli politicians spreading propaganda calling SA the legal arm of HAMAS.
No love lost between the ANC and Israel given that Israel supported apartheid. The chickens are coming home to roost.
C69 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:54 pm
Nice to see Israeli politicians spreading propaganda calling SA the legal arm of HAMAS.
No love lost between the ANC and Israel given that Israel supported apartheid. The chickens are coming home to roost.
Much more than supported; they cooperated with SA on nuclear weapons development, in return they got someplace to test their own design, resulting in the "Vela incident" !
C69 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:54 pm
Nice to see Israeli politicians spreading propaganda calling SA the legal arm of HAMAS.
No love lost between the ANC and Israel given that Israel supported apartheid. The chickens are coming home to roost.
Much more than supported; they cooperated with SA on nuclear weapons development, in return they got someplace to test their own design, resulting in the "Vela incident" !
Thanks for that info, was completely unaware of that. I just ordered a book, "the unspoken alliance" which will hopefully shed more light on this relationship.
I was actually reading up on the different countries that support the South African lawsuit and saw Colombia. Not surprising given Israel's history in the country but reading the the Colombian President's comments on Rafael Eitan led me down another rabbit hole that ended up here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and ... a_massacre
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:37 pm
by Uncle fester
Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:03 pm
I was actually reading up on the different countries that support the South African lawsuit and saw Colombia. Not surprising given Israel's history in the country but reading the the Colombian President's comments on Rafael Eitan led me down another rabbit hole that ended up here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and ... a_massacre
You got to Ariel Sharon yeah?
The fücking chaos that evil man unleashed.
Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:03 pm
I was actually reading up on the different countries that support the South African lawsuit and saw Colombia. Not surprising given Israel's history in the country but reading the the Colombian President's comments on Rafael Eitan led me down another rabbit hole that ended up here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and ... a_massacre
You got to Ariel Sharon yeah?
The fücking chaos that evil man unleashed.
Bibi's blueprint. How to convert a brief military success into a Political career, & conceal the fact that the success was about going against all the rules anyway, & not genius, but hubris & so a marker for any Political career being disastrous.
Look at the military figures who have been successful as Politicians; are they the stand alone heros, the big personalities ?
... are they fuck; they aren't the Pattons, or the Montgomeries; they aren't even the Wellingtons; they're the Eisenhowers, the effective mid-level managers who can work thru others to achieve the goal, & aren't primarily bothered about their ego.
Bibi has always been just as corrupt as any 3rd world leader, but now everything is coming together !
I saw a segment earlier where the retired US General summed it up nicely; Bibi said to the people; "you don't like me, but I keep you safe !"; & now that promised was dead;; he didn't, & that was his USP.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2024 11:16 am
by Calculon
Can't think of anyone better to support Hamas than the ANC government
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2024 7:45 pm
by Sandstorm
Calculon wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 11:16 am
Can't think of anyone better to support Hamas than the ANC government
Focus on Israel, take your eye off the shitshow back home.
Calculon wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 11:16 am
Can't think of anyone better to support Hamas than the ANC government
Focus on Israel, take your eye off the shitshow back home.
Not sure if you still regard them as your government, but my government, the corrupt amoral criminals that they are, has decided to get involved in this conflict by backing Hamas and by bringing this case forth. Thinking it's going to get them some popularity, never mind the fact that it's pissing off their Western allies. As if them backing Putin wasn't causing enough damage.
Calculon wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 11:16 am
Can't think of anyone better to support Hamas than the ANC government
Focus on Israel, take your eye off the shitshow back home.
Not sure if you still regard them as your government, but my government, the corrupt amoral criminals that they are, has decided to get involved in this conflict by backing Hamas and by bringing this case forth. Thinking it's going to get them some popularity, never mind the fact that it's pissing off their Western allies. As if them backing Putin wasn't causing enough damage.
I know very little about these third world corrupt shit holes.
But how the fuck are they supporting Hamas?
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 12:04 pm
by Calculon
C69 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 10:00 am I know very little about these third world corrupt shit holes.
But how the fuck are they supporting Hamas?
and yet you have a lot to say on Gaza...
ANC inviting senior Hamas over for conference, where they promote their propaganda of “never killed any civilians on Oct 7th” - without any push back from the ANC. Photo ops shaking hands with Hamas, putting out a joint statement that unsurprisingly doesn’t call for the release of Hamas hostages, including the Saffa one(s). ANC spokesman not only defending the “river to the sea” chant but also suggesting that Hamas control of all of Israel would not necessarily be detrimental to the Jews. You probably don’t think these constitute support, but whatever.
JOHANNESBURG: Cricket South Africa (CSA) is honoured to have been named by the International Cricket Council (ICC) as hosts of the U19 Men’s Cricket World Cup which commences on 19 January. This decision was only taken in November last year after the original hosts, Sri Lanka, were suspended by the ICC, leaving us with little time to make all the necessary preparations.
As is the case with all such events, CSA has been receiving regular security and risk updates regarding the World Cup. We have been advised that protests related to the war in Gaza can be anticipated at the venues for the tournament.
We have also been advised that they are likely to focus on the position of the SA Under-19 (SA U19) captain, David Teeger, and that there is a risk that they could result in conflict or even violence, including between rival groups of protestors.
CSA has a primary duty to safeguard the interests and safety of all those involved in the World Cup and must accordingly respect the expert advice of those responsible for the safety of participants and spectators.
In all the circumstances, CSA has decided that David should be relieved of the captaincy for the tournament. This is in the best interests of all the players, the SA U19 team and David himself.
David will remain an important and active member of the squad and we wish him and the team every success in the tournament. The newly appointed captain will be announced in due course.
His comments
Teeger made these comments during the Jewish Achievement Awards ceremony, stating, “I'm now the rising star, but the true rising stars are the young soldiers in Israel. And I'd like to dedicate it to the state of Israel and every single soldier fighting so that we can live and thrive in the diaspora.”
Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:03 pm
I was actually reading up on the different countries that support the South African lawsuit and saw Colombia. Not surprising given Israel's history in the country but reading the the Colombian President's comments on Rafael Eitan led me down another rabbit hole that ended up here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and ... a_massacre
You got to Ariel Sharon yeah?
The fücking chaos that evil man unleashed.
I have not. I'm planning on doing a deep dive on Israel history but just now pondering how to go about it. I guess I could go chronologically starting with the pre 1948 movements that led to the creation of the nation state. Then go 40s, 50s, 60s and so on. Or I could do it based on the major personalities - I have an unread copy of Abba Ebans autobiography so that might be a good starting place.
You and fishfoodie seem to be knowledgeable what would you suggest?
Calculon wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 11:16 am
Can't think of anyone better to support Hamas than the ANC government
Focus on Israel, take your eye off the shitshow back home.
Not sure if you still regard them as your government, but my government, the corrupt amoral criminals that they are, has decided to get involved in this conflict by backing Hamas and by bringing this case forth. Thinking it's going to get them some popularity, never mind the fact that it's pissing off their Western allies. As if them backing Putin wasn't causing enough damage.
Gaza is a humanitarian crisis - a lot of kids being killed. The ANC might not be everyone's cup of tea but someone, somewhere has to advocate on behalf of the innocents in Gaza. .
Hugo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:03 pm
I was actually reading up on the different countries that support the South African lawsuit and saw Colombia. Not surprising given Israel's history in the country but reading the the Colombian President's comments on Rafael Eitan led me down another rabbit hole that ended up here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and ... a_massacre
You got to Ariel Sharon yeah?
The fücking chaos that evil man unleashed.
I have not. I'm planning on doing a deep dive on Israel history but just now pondering how to go about it. I guess I could go chronologically starting with the pre 1948 movements that led to the creation of the nation state. Then go 40s, 50s, 60s and so on. Or I could do it based on the major personalities - I have an unread copy of Abba Ebans autobiography so that might be a good starting place.
You and fishfoodie seem to be knowledgeable what would you suggest?
Man that's a tough question !
I think I'd start with looking at the Zionist moment, & then the foundation of the State of Israel (from either side obviously), & then flick to the major events & personalities.
Oddly enough I was reminded recently of a tour myself & a few other guys did a tour of one of the model villages, that's now a National museum in Israel, & the tour guide was telling us about how Rothschild funded the whole thing, & his dream of Zionism.
The irony was that Zionism was a very middle-class idea, & so when he started getting volunteers to "settle" Palestine, what he was getting was a bunch of middle/upper class Ashkenazi Jews who didn't know one end of a cow from the other, & the result was a calamity where the model village wasn't producing enough food to even feed themselves, & their animals were dying, but they had an excellent School & Doctors .......
Rothschild recalibrated, & moved further East, because Zionism was no longer an abstract philosophical thought to be pitched at intellectuals; it was now a simple offer to Jewish serfs in Russia, to give them land in return for their knowledge & hard work.
The other important thing about Rothschild was he saw the possibility of future conflict with the Arabs, & he told the settlers to be friends & assets to their neighbours, but unfortunately that didn't happen after WW II, & the massive influx of Jews who were too many to integrate, they could only overwhelm, because understandably, the people arriving on the shores of the mandate weren't keen on going back to the towns that had so enthusiastically handed them over to the Nazis, which were now also in the Soviet sphere, & these were often either camp survivors, or just Jewish men & women who'd fought against the Nazi's in whatever Army they could join. Regardless, they'd seen death, & knew the value of human life, & were determined to not rely on anyone else for their own survival.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 11:59 pm
by Calculon
Not forgetting the even greater
number of Sephardim arrivals that were ethnically cleansed from the Middle East and North Africa
You got to Ariel Sharon yeah?
The fücking chaos that evil man unleashed.
I have not. I'm planning on doing a deep dive on Israel history but just now pondering how to go about it. I guess I could go chronologically starting with the pre 1948 movements that led to the creation of the nation state. Then go 40s, 50s, 60s and so on. Or I could do it based on the major personalities - I have an unread copy of Abba Ebans autobiography so that might be a good starting place.
You and fishfoodie seem to be knowledgeable what would you suggest?
Man that's a tough question !
I think I'd start with looking at the Zionist moment, & then the foundation of the State of Israel (from either side obviously), & then flick to the major events & personalities.
Oddly enough I was reminded recently of a tour myself & a few other guys did a tour of one of the model villages, that's now a National museum in Israel, & the tour guide was telling us about how Rothschild funded the whole thing, & his dream of Zionism.
The irony was that Zionism was a very middle-class idea, & so when he started getting volunteers to "settle" Palestine, what he was getting was a bunch of middle/upper class Ashkenazi Jews who didn't know one end of a cow from the other, & the result was a calamity where the model village wasn't producing enough food to even feed themselves, & their animals were dying, but they had an excellent School & Doctors .......
Rothschild recalibrated, & moved further East, because Zionism was no longer an abstract philosophical thought to be pitched at intellectuals; it was now a simple offer to Jewish serfs in Russia, to give them land in return for their knowledge & hard work.
The other important thing about Rothschild was he saw the possibility of future conflict with the Arabs, & he told the settlers to be friends & assets to their neighbours, but unfortunately that didn't happen after WW II, & the massive influx of Jews who were too many to integrate, they could only overwhelm, because understandably, the people arriving on the shores of the mandate weren't keen on going back to the towns that had so enthusiastically handed them over to the Nazis, which were now also in the Soviet sphere, & these were often either camp survivors, or just Jewish men & women who'd fought against the Nazi's in whatever Army they could join. Regardless, they'd seen death, & knew the value of human life, & were determined to not rely on anyone else for their own survival.
There were Jews from Eastern Europe moving to Palestine (‘the land of Israel’) before Baron Rothschild became involved. Many or most were not middle class nor particularly well off. In fact Rothschild involved himself largely because emigration was stalling because of lack of funds.
Even after Baron Rothschild became involved, there were eastern European working class - not middle class - Jews leaving, which is one reason the Jewish Labor Bund sets its face against Zionism. As did quite a few working class and socialist organisations in general - they didn’t want to see valuable members disappearing.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2024 9:56 pm
by C69
Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 11:59 pm
Not forgetting the even greater
number of Sephardim arrivals that were ethnically cleansed from the Middle East and North Africa
For context this is recent obviously.
Never heard of this.
I have not. I'm planning on doing a deep dive on Israel history but just now pondering how to go about it. I guess I could go chronologically starting with the pre 1948 movements that led to the creation of the nation state. Then go 40s, 50s, 60s and so on. Or I could do it based on the major personalities - I have an unread copy of Abba Ebans autobiography so that might be a good starting place.
You and fishfoodie seem to be knowledgeable what would you suggest?
Man that's a tough question !
I think I'd start with looking at the Zionist moment, & then the foundation of the State of Israel (from either side obviously), & then flick to the major events & personalities.
Oddly enough I was reminded recently of a tour myself & a few other guys did a tour of one of the model villages, that's now a National museum in Israel, & the tour guide was telling us about how Rothschild funded the whole thing, & his dream of Zionism.
The irony was that Zionism was a very middle-class idea, & so when he started getting volunteers to "settle" Palestine, what he was getting was a bunch of middle/upper class Ashkenazi Jews who didn't know one end of a cow from the other, & the result was a calamity where the model village wasn't producing enough food to even feed themselves, & their animals were dying, but they had an excellent School & Doctors .......
Rothschild recalibrated, & moved further East, because Zionism was no longer an abstract philosophical thought to be pitched at intellectuals; it was now a simple offer to Jewish serfs in Russia, to give them land in return for their knowledge & hard work.
The other important thing about Rothschild was he saw the possibility of future conflict with the Arabs, & he told the settlers to be friends & assets to their neighbours, but unfortunately that didn't happen after WW II, & the massive influx of Jews who were too many to integrate, they could only overwhelm, because understandably, the people arriving on the shores of the mandate weren't keen on going back to the towns that had so enthusiastically handed them over to the Nazis, which were now also in the Soviet sphere, & these were often either camp survivors, or just Jewish men & women who'd fought against the Nazi's in whatever Army they could join. Regardless, they'd seen death, & knew the value of human life, & were determined to not rely on anyone else for their own survival.
There were Jews from Eastern Europe moving to Palestine (‘the land of Israel’) before Baron Rothschild became involved. Many or most were not middle class nor particularly well off. In fact Rothschild involved himself largely because emigration was stalling because of lack of funds.
Even after Baron Rothschild became involved, there were eastern European working class - not middle class - Jews leaving, which is one reason the Jewish Labor Bund sets its face against Zionism. As did quite a few working class and socialist organisations in general - they didn’t want to see valuable members disappearing.
Yeah, but it's always about the numbers.
It's much harder for a working-class family to get the funds together to move bag & baggage from say Poland, to Palestine, & once they get there, to buy some kind of enterprise to support the family. The working class Jews moving to Palestine didn't even move the needle on the dial, nor did it ever get to the level where anyone else already there looked up & saw them as a threat to their existance.
What Rothschild did was create a model where that self same family didn't have to worry about 99% of the cost, because he was financing their destination, & guaranteeing some kind of job so they could support themselves.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 9:06 am
by Sards
Really glad I don't devote energy to all the conflicts around the globe. Would make me have a very dismal attitude to life.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 9:17 am
by Gumboot
Sards wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2024 9:06 am
Really glad I don't devote energy to all the conflicts around the globe. Would make me have a very dismal attitude to life.
Yep.
After all, it's much more comforting to just suck your thumb and mumble Kumbaya while ignoring the surrounding reality of most people's lives.
Especially when you're surrounded by high walls, razor wire, and armed security guards.
Sards wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2024 9:06 am
Really glad I don't devote energy to all the conflicts around the globe. Would make me have a very dismal attitude to life.
Yep.
After all, it's much more comforting to just suck your thumb and mumble Kumbaya while ignoring the surrounding reality of most people's lives.
Especially when you're surrounded by high walls, razor wire, and armed security guards.
Sards wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2024 9:06 am
Really glad I don't devote energy to all the conflicts around the globe. Would make me have a very dismal attitude to life.
Yep.
After all, it's much more comforting to just suck your thumb and mumble Kumbaya while ignoring the surrounding reality of most people's lives.
Especially when you're surrounded by high walls, razor wire, and armed security guards.
Paradise!
You choose the life you lead and value yourself accordingly.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 9:57 am
by Gumboot
Sards wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 9:40 amYou choose the life you lead and value yourself accordingly.
Seriously? From someone who dodged the worst of his Apartheid generation's atrocitities through the "luck" of their race at birth?
How many of your young Black contemporaries had a choice back then, when the seeds of your future wealth were sown? You can only choose the life you lead if you have a choice in the first place, Boet.
