2024/2025 Not Heineken Cup

[Torquemada 1420]

That's a huge wrong. Leicester conceding 80 with a full 1st XV side full of test players is as low as it gets with the exception of doing it at home instead.

I can't agree because, as has been pointed out
- near full strength Sarries
- versus 2nd string CO
- and CO has never won an away game in the Tier 1 version of the comp?

Castres are one of those teams that are very difficult to put away even when they are inferior on paper.

That's a fair observation.

[Torquemada 1420]

Rankings;

1. UBB
2. Leinster
3. Saints
4. Toulon

5. Toulouse
6. Castres
7. Glasgow
8. La Rochelle

9. Munster
10. Leicester
11. Benetton
12. Sale

13. Saracens
14. Clermont
15. Quins
16. Ulster

That sums up the ludicrousness of this comp.

[ASMO]

Quarters will be
All French
All French
Irish -Scottish
English - French

Feel free to praise my powers of deduction.

I mostly agree except i kinda fancy Ben Elton to pull off a win over Castres

[Torquemada 1420]

Not the destruction I expected but definitely not a good game by Jordan and Hooker. Too many mistakes. Toulouse will be wondering if they would be able to beat a full strength Sharks. Thought Klinghorn was superb. Du Pont was meh but still better than Jayden. Well I guess we are out of the Championship Cup. Hopefully Eben can grace the Sharks with a match or 2. Now we can focus on the URC

Toulouse would murder a full strength Sharks in European playing conditions.

We had our weakest team for home and you couldn't " murder " us . With a full strength team. I think you believe far too much in the hype

So............. how did the Sharks fare against a team that shipped nearly 60 points against Toulouse in last year's T14 final?

[Sandstorm]

French sides will host 5 of the 8 Round of 16 ties in the Champions Cup and 5 of the 8 Round of 16 ties in the Challenge Cup.

6/8 Top 14 teams qualified out of the Champions Cup pools, 5/6 out of the Challenge Cup pools.

Not hard for them, the furthest they have to travel all season is Ireland. Same for English sides. No travel issues, resting players is a tactical rather than tiredness problem.
URC is a problem for the other Teams.

Dunno what everyone else can do to catch up with French money either.

[Sandstorm]

Rankings;

1. UBB
2. Leinster
3. Saints
4. Toulon

5. Toulouse
6. Castres
7. Glasgow
8. La Rochelle

9. Munster
10. Leicester
11. Benetton
12. Sale

13. Saracens
14. Clermont
15. Quins
16. Ulster

That sums up the ludicrousness of this comp.

Not really. UBB on 20, Toulouse on 19 points. Just a missed bonus point between two teams who won all their games.

[Ovals]

2 suggestions (1 knicked, 1 mine). These are assuming we will not be going back to 9 dedicated weeks, which is a safe assumption unfortunately.

First is you go back to 5 or 6 groups of four, but you pair up the French teams in each group and have their fixtures double up as top14 games, same then in the challenge cup. Effectively you have 2 European game weeks doubling up as Top14 weeks as well. Don't know how feasible that is really, but if it is doable its probably the best we could manage, messy or not to organise.

2nd is to do away with the group stages all together and go to a straight cup competition. 16 teams playing home/away in each of the last 16, quarters and semis, and then the final. Much fewer games, but higher quality ones. 7 weeks total, and plenty of rest for players that get knocked out early (which isn't a bad thing). Every game has plenty of jeapordy, unless a team concedes 80 in the first leg of course.


And would Sale please score a fucking try for fucks sake!!

If you binned off 3x Saffer teams and 1 English you’d have a 20 team tournament and could have 5 groups, 3 best 2nd place go to the quarters

Except that would require 9 weekends, which we don't have.

8 groups of 3 - home and away (4 matches) - top team of each through to home and away QFs - then straight KO SF and Final. SFs to be drawn from a hat.

[topofthemoon]

If you binned off 3x Saffer teams and 1 English you’d have a 20 team tournament and could have 5 groups, 3 best 2nd place go to the quarters

Except that would require 9 weekends, which we don't have.

8 groups of 3 - home and away (4 matches) - top team of each through to home and away QFs - then straight KO SF and Final. SFs to be drawn from a hat.

Odd numbers in groups are pretty awkward. With groups of three it would take six weeks for all three teams to play each other home and away - the same number of weeks as a four team group playing home and away:

A v B (C rest week)
B v A (C rest week)
A v C ( B rest week)
C v A (B rest week)
B v C (A rest week)
C v B (A rest week)

[OomStruisbaai]

It's the last season the Saffer teams have to play second fiddle. Next season we are full partners in the URC and Cham Cup.

[Ovals]

Except that would require 9 weekends, which we don't have.

8 groups of 3 - home and away (4 matches) - top team of each through to home and away QFs - then straight KO SF and Final. SFs to be drawn from a hat.

Odd numbers in groups are pretty awkward. With groups of three it would take six weeks for all three teams to play each other home and away - the same number of weeks as a four team group playing home and away:

A v B (C rest week)
B v A (C rest week)
A v C ( B rest week)
C v A (B rest week)
B v C (A rest week)
C v B (A rest week)

Good point.

Very hard to come up with a good format with just 8 weeks available. I'd like a straight knock out but that won't work for the clubs or the TV rights. Probably why they've gone for what we've currently got.

[assfly]

It's the last season the Saffer teams have to play second fiddle. Next season we are full partners in the URC and Cham Cup.

Good to hear. I feel we've been holding back and missing tackles because of this.

[Slick]

It's the last season the Saffer teams have to play second fiddle. Next season we are full partners in the URC and Cham Cup.

Good to hear. I feel we've been holding back and missing tackles because of this.

Well done

[Sandstorm]

[PornDog]

I'd like a straight knock out but that won't work for the clubs or the TV rights. Probably why they've gone for what we've currently got.

It definitely has its cons, but I'm really warming to a home/away knockout up to the final (assuming we can't get the 9th weekend back that is).

Yes there's fewer overall games, but those games will be of much higher quality, with jeapordy in pretty much every game unless the first leg is a complete blowout. The groups of two matches becomes easier to market, bto for tickets and for tv, so unlikely to have the farce like last year where the quarters were less attended than the last 16. TV rights could well increase over time as a result.

Yes many clubs will have fewer games to host, but this only ads to the jeapordy as well. Win and you get more games and more revenue, yet another something that is missing from the current format.

The real question is what kind of format does that leave for the challenge cup? I'd probably have the same format. If you're outside the top 32 clubs in Europe then you either don't have Europe to compete in at all, or your in with the Black Lions and whomever else in a third tier.

[inactionman]

I'd like a straight knock out but that won't work for the clubs or the TV rights. Probably why they've gone for what we've currently got.

It definitely has its cons, but I'm really warming to a home/away knockout up to the final (assuming we can't get the 9th weekend back that is).

Yes there's fewer overall games, but those games will be of much higher quality, with jeapordy in pretty much every game unless the first leg is a complete blowout. The groups of two matches becomes easier to market, bto for tickets and for tv, so unlikely to have the farce like last year where the quarters were less attended than the last 16. TV rights could well increase over time as a result.

Yes many clubs will have fewer games to host, but this only ads to the jeapordy as well. Win and you get more games and more revenue, yet another something that is missing from the current format.

The real question is what kind of format does that leave for the challenge cup? I'd probably have the same format. If you're outside the top 32 clubs in Europe then you either don't have Europe to compete in at all, or your in with the Black Lions and whomever else in a third tier.

I'd support anything that leads to fewer teams sending b-teams as a form of damage limitation.

In terms of knockout as opposed to groups, it's not always that useful to compare to football, but I think the FA Cup is a much more entertaining spectacle than the Champions' League. It's knockout from the first round, so you have to go at your opponent.. Each match matters.

[Sandstorm]

In terms of knockout as opposed to groups, it's not always that useful to compare to football, but I think the FA Cup is a much more entertaining spectacle than the Champions' League. It's knockout from the first round, so you have to go at your opponent.. Each match matters.

Hmmm....interesting.

Combine Champions League and Challenge Cup in one tournament. First round Challenge Cup Teams go head-to head and knock-outs. Then Round 2 the Champions Teams come in and it's knockout from there too.

[Torquemada 1420]

It's the last season the Saffer teams have to play second fiddle. Next season we are full partners in the URC and Cham Cup.

Good to hear. I feel we've been holding back and missing tackles because of this.

[Torquemada 1420]

I'd like a straight knock out but that won't work for the clubs or the TV rights. Probably why they've gone for what we've currently got.

It definitely has its cons, but I'm really warming to a home/away knockout up to the final (assuming we can't get the 9th weekend back that is).

Yes there's fewer overall games, but those games will be of much higher quality, with jeapordy in pretty much every game unless the first leg is a complete blowout. The groups of two matches becomes easier to market, bto for tickets and for tv, so unlikely to have the farce like last year where the quarters were less attended than the last 16. TV rights could well increase over time as a result.

Yes many clubs will have fewer games to host, but this only ads to the jeapordy as well. Win and you get more games and more revenue, yet another something that is missing from the current format.

The real question is what kind of format does that leave for the challenge cup? I'd probably have the same format. If you're outside the top 32 clubs in Europe then you either don't have Europe to compete in at all, or your in with the Black Lions and whomever else in a third tier.

The H & A format was one of the great aspects of the comp.

[PCPhil]

I'd like a straight knock out but that won't work for the clubs or the TV rights. Probably why they've gone for what we've currently got.

It definitely has its cons, but I'm really warming to a home/away knockout up to the final (assuming we can't get the 9th weekend back that is).

Yes there's fewer overall games, but those games will be of much higher quality, with jeapordy in pretty much every game unless the first leg is a complete blowout. The groups of two matches becomes easier to market, bto for tickets and for tv, so unlikely to have the farce like last year where the quarters were less attended than the last 16. TV rights could well increase over time as a result.

Yes many clubs will have fewer games to host, but this only ads to the jeapordy as well. Win and you get more games and more revenue, yet another something that is missing from the current format.

The real question is what kind of format does that leave for the challenge cup? I'd probably have the same format. If you're outside the top 32 clubs in Europe then you either don't have Europe to compete in at all, or your in with the Black Lions and whomever else in a third tier.

The H & A format was one of the great aspects of the comp.

and another one for good luck

[Biffer]

I'd like a straight knock out but that won't work for the clubs or the TV rights. Probably why they've gone for what we've currently got.

It definitely has its cons, but I'm really warming to a home/away knockout up to the final (assuming we can't get the 9th weekend back that is).

Yes there's fewer overall games, but those games will be of much higher quality, with jeapordy in pretty much every game unless the first leg is a complete blowout. The groups of two matches becomes easier to market, bto for tickets and for tv, so unlikely to have the farce like last year where the quarters were less attended than the last 16. TV rights could well increase over time as a result.

Yes many clubs will have fewer games to host, but this only ads to the jeapordy as well. Win and you get more games and more revenue, yet another something that is missing from the current format.

The real question is what kind of format does that leave for the challenge cup? I'd probably have the same format. If you're outside the top 32 clubs in Europe then you either don't have Europe to compete in at all, or your in with the Black Lions and whomever else in a third tier.

Home away knockout means the position in the group is less meaningful - so likely more dead matches in the group stage.

Home and away in the group stage I'm all for.

[Sandstorm]

Home and Away means even more Rugby for players that are already being ground down to dust. Injuries are piling up across the clubs everywhere.

Knockout from Round 1 is the best solution. Quicker tournament and no more C Teams turning up.

[assfly]

This thread needs more suggestions on improved formats.
Keep them coming.

[Sandstorm]

This thread needs more suggestions on improved formats.
Keep them coming.

Will you forward everything to Dublin?

[assfly]

Will you forward everything to Dublin?

Just a couple more, and I'll fax them over. Then I expect a swift decision on the best one.

[Sandstorm]

Will you forward everything to Dublin?

Just a couple more, and I'll fax them over. Then I expect a swift decision on the best one.

Good business practice

[PornDog]

I'd like a straight knock out but that won't work for the clubs or the TV rights. Probably why they've gone for what we've currently got.

It definitely has its cons, but I'm really warming to a home/away knockout up to the final (assuming we can't get the 9th weekend back that is).

Yes there's fewer overall games, but those games will be of much higher quality, with jeapordy in pretty much every game unless the first leg is a complete blowout. The groups of two matches becomes easier to market, bto for tickets and for tv, so unlikely to have the farce like last year where the quarters were less attended than the last 16. TV rights could well increase over time as a result.

Yes many clubs will have fewer games to host, but this only ads to the jeapordy as well. Win and you get more games and more revenue, yet another something that is missing from the current format.

The real question is what kind of format does that leave for the challenge cup? I'd probably have the same format. If you're outside the top 32 clubs in Europe then you either don't have Europe to compete in at all, or your in with the Black Lions and whomever else in a third tier.

Home away knockout means the position in the group is less meaningful - so likely more dead matches in the group stage.

Home and away in the group stage I'm all for.

I'm talking about doing away with the group stages all together. 16 team competition which begins with a home and away last 16 draw.

If we can't have 9 weekends (and it looks like we can't), then I think that's the best format available to us.

It's already a much smaller competition than it was, and deserves to be. Leaving it to slowly wither on the vine isn't much of a choice, but that's exactly what keeping on with this clusterfuck of a format is. Pure Cup format, home/away at least returns the jeapordy to the competition, which brings excitement, which in turn brings the fans and the broadcasters back.

[Sandstorm]

I'm talking about doing away with the group stages all together. 16 team competition which begins with a home and away last 16 draw.

16 teams from 3 leagues doesn't share equally. Which of GP, URC or Top 14 gets the 6th team?

It'll have to be 12, 18 or 24 Teams.

12 works for me, Home and Away.....etc.

[inactionman]

I'm talking about doing away with the group stages all together. 16 team competition which begins with a home and away last 16 draw.

16 teams from 3 leagues doesn't share equally. Which of GP, URC or Top 14 gets the 6th team?

It'll have to be 12, 18 or 24 Teams.

Last year's winner goes straight in.

[Sandstorm]

I'm talking about doing away with the group stages all together. 16 team competition which begins with a home and away last 16 draw.

16 teams from 3 leagues doesn't share equally. Which of GP, URC or Top 14 gets the 6th team?

It'll have to be 12, 18 or 24 Teams.

Last year's winner goes straight in.

Interesting..

[Torquemada 1420]

Home away knockout means the position in the group is less meaningful - so likely more dead matches in the group stage.

Home and away in the group stage I'm all for.

Yes.

[Torquemada 1420]

Home and Away means even more Rugby for players that are already being ground down to dust. Injuries are piling up across the clubs everywhere.

Knockout from Round 1 is the best solution. Quicker tournament and no more C Teams turning up.

This is meant to be the premier club comp in the world. Either other stuff has to give** to make this work or lets give up the pretence altogether and, maybe, bin the whole thing.
**
- so let's cut the crap of fragmenting the thing so badly that even I have to look back to work out where TF we were. Not saying it all has to be played in 1 shot but the current bits and pieces is rubbish.
- cut the number of domestic games OR allow clubs to make their own choices. Which is what Leinster have done forever i.e. field weakened sides in domestic comp and focus the heavy artillery on Europe.

[Biffer]

Home and Away means even more Rugby for players that are already being ground down to dust. Injuries are piling up across the clubs everywhere.

Knockout from Round 1 is the best solution. Quicker tournament and no more C Teams turning up.

This is meant to be the premier club comp in the world. Either other stuff has to give** to make this work or lets give up the pretence altogether and, maybe, bin the whole thing.
**
- so let's cut the crap of fragmenting the thing so badly that even I have to look back to work out where TF we were. Not saying it all has to be played in 1 shot but the current bits and pieces is rubbish.
- cut the number of domestic games OR allow clubs to make their own choices. Which is what Leinster have done forever i.e. field weakened sides in domestic comp and focus the heavy artillery on Europe.

To be fair, we have fewer domestic games in the URC now than we had when it was groups of four home and away, and so do the English. It's France that's the problem.

[Sandstorm]

Home and Away means even more Rugby for players that are already being ground down to dust. Injuries are piling up across the clubs everywhere.

Knockout from Round 1 is the best solution. Quicker tournament and no more C Teams turning up.

This is meant to be the premier club comp in the world. Either other stuff has to give** to make this work or lets give up the pretence altogether and, maybe, bin the whole thing.
**
- so let's cut the crap of fragmenting the thing so badly that even I have to look back to work out where TF we were. Not saying it all has to be played in 1 shot but the current bits and pieces is rubbish.

Can't disagree here.

- cut the number of domestic games OR allow clubs to make their own choices. Which is what Leinster have done forever i.e. field weakened sides in domestic comp and focus the heavy artillery on Europe.

Leinster could do that before the Saffers joined the URC and Scotland got their shit together - now the URC is too competitive for Leinster to undervalue it like the old days - hence possibly why they haven't won it yet.
Likewise French and English leagues don't have many easy-win games left either.

Domestic leagues are what they are. You don't make cuts there, you have to change the Cup formats. And the only option is making the Champions Cup more exclusive with only the very best getting to play each season. The rest can watch on Premier Sports or practise their lineouts.

[OomStruisbaai]

It's the last season the Saffer teams have to play second fiddle. Next season we are full partners in the URC and Cham Cup.

Good to hear. I feel we've been holding back and missing tackles because of this.

Not all Saffer teams got 50+ against them.

[Torquemada 1420]

Home and Away means even more Rugby for players that are already being ground down to dust. Injuries are piling up across the clubs everywhere.

Knockout from Round 1 is the best solution. Quicker tournament and no more C Teams turning up.

This is meant to be the premier club comp in the world. Either other stuff has to give** to make this work or lets give up the pretence altogether and, maybe, bin the whole thing.
**
- so let's cut the crap of fragmenting the thing so badly that even I have to look back to work out where TF we were. Not saying it all has to be played in 1 shot but the current bits and pieces is rubbish.
- cut the number of domestic games OR allow clubs to make their own choices. Which is what Leinster have done forever i.e. field weakened sides in domestic comp and focus the heavy artillery on Europe.

To be fair, we have fewer domestic games in the URC now than we had when it was groups of four home and away, and so do the English. It's France that's the problem.

Which brings me back to what I've said since day 1 of the comp
- Tier 1 clubs (that's all T14) get comp money based on the points they gather
- no points, no money
- and the option to dip out an annual basis: don't want to play, don't.

[Torquemada 1420]

Domestic leagues are what they are. You don't make cuts there, you have to change the Cup formats. And the only option is making the Champions Cup more exclusive with only the very best getting to play each season. The rest can watch on Premier Sports or practise their lineouts.

I think that's a really valid stance. With one reservation: how do we grow the game in Europe?

[Sandstorm]

Domestic leagues are what they are. You don't make cuts there, you have to change the Cup formats. And the only option is making the Champions Cup more exclusive with only the very best getting to play each season. The rest can watch on Premier Sports or practise their lineouts.

I think that's a really valid stance. With one reservation: how do we grow the game in Europe?

Well that's the other side of the coin. Someone has to find a way to make minnows Rugby in Europe more attractive and thereby pay for itself. Not many sugar daddies in Portugal or Spain looking to invest in clubs out there.

[JM2K6]

Can't work with modern requirements for ticketing and stadium planning, but a knockout from the start comp might be feasible if it was double elimination

[Biffer]

Domestic leagues are what they are. You don't make cuts there, you have to change the Cup formats. And the only option is making the Champions Cup more exclusive with only the very best getting to play each season. The rest can watch on Premier Sports or practise their lineouts.

I think that's a really valid stance. With one reservation: how do we grow the game in Europe?

Well that's the other side of the coin. Someone has to find a way to make minnows Rugby in Europe more attractive and thereby pay for itself. Not many sugar daddies in Portugal or Spain looking to invest in clubs out there.

Well, before the spivs took a shit over everything, we had the European Rugby Continental Shield, an eight team tournament including clubs from Romania, Georgia, Spain, Portugal Germany etc, the winner of which entered into the old Amlin Cup (equivalent of the challenge Cup now). There were two teams from those countries in it every year, the winner of the Shield, and the winner of a playoff game between the two teams who were in the Amlin that year. Good competition across Europe for the T2 countries' clubs.

[Uncle fester]

This thread needs more suggestions on improved formats.
Keep them coming.

Will you forward everything to Dublin?

Lausanne

Competition was better when it was run out of Dublin.