The Scottish Politics Thread

[Biffer]

Biffer - Not sure quoting bombastic statements from the white paper or SNP manifesto's is the clincher you think it is.

There was no legal route to retaining membership - the treaties of the EU specified a country would have to join under article 48. This was stated by the commission at the time:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... membership

And the SG was unable to even get its own lawyers to support its claims:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... e-scotland




Quite simply it was a lie...perhaps saying 'indifference' is too generous. Even the most generous interpretation is there was a substantial risk in 2014.

A final note - I assume you think Salmond is being truthful in your quotes but is obviously lying now?

Not prepared to admit your statement was flat wrong. Quite simply, your statement was a lie.

I assume you think Salmond was lying then but is obviously telling the truth now?

See how easy that is?

Come one now, I read on some other thread that you're in your 50's. . .

That response (and the ones further up) aren't even befitting of primary 7 debating club: just address tc's points.

They're exactly the same as his points, just reversed. That's the whole point, his 'points' are exactly what you describe, primary debating club level.

[Wylie Coyote]

The SNP spent more losing a by-election in Shetland than they did on the 2016 Brexit referendum. That reveals where their priorities lie.

[tc27]

More evidence emerging - corroborates some of Salmond's claims and had to be forced out metaphorical gunpoint (now we know why).

1. Their external legal counsel was clearly telling them they had a failing in their case and would lose against Salmond - they pressed on at the cost of hundreds of thousands to taxpayers
2. Letters from Kevin Pringle & Duncan Hamilton in which they agree with Alex Salmond's claims that the name of a complainer was passed on to him - and the purposes of the meetings with Nicola Sturgeon.

Both appear to confirm the NS has breached the ministerial code, mislead Parliament and wasted huge amounts of taxpayers cash...McLeish went for far less than this.

[westport]

VONC in the FM

[tc27]

VONC in the FM

Apparently the Greens are saying its too soon so will not happen yet...but the fact it may happen at all is extraordinary.

NS probably has got the most important few hours of her political life coming up tomorrow when she goes in front of the committee

[Caley_Red]

The more this inquiry goes on, the more it exposes the utter failure of the current devolution settlement: parliamentary privilege must be devolved to ensure that the crown office can't bully parliament again.

I think a vote of no confidence in Sturgeon should happen irrespective of green (confirmed) involvement, the more that comes out, the more it corroborates salmond's claims and the corruption is frankly an embarrassment to Scots and the country.

Question is, is there a point where the evidence becomes so damning that either the brass neck of Sturgeon collapses or a couple of SNP MSPs decide that enough is enough. . .

[westport]

I think the FM should get urgent medical attention, forgetting so much is not a good sign of things to come.

[tc27]

https://www.holyrood.com/comment/view,c ... deflection

Comment: Sturgeon's performance was a masterclass in obfuscation and deflection
Woodrow Wilson, America’s 28th President, was a better scholar than politician. In his study of Congressional government, published in 1885, he argued that "Congress in session is Congress on public exhibition whilst Congress in its committee-rooms is Congress at work."

That is generally true of legislatures. But Nicola Sturgeon’s appearance before the committee investigating the ‘actions of the First Minister, Scottish Government officials and special advisers in dealing with complaints about Alex Salmond’ was pure parliament on public exhibition.

Sturgeon’s performance was a masterclass. As an exercise in open government, transparency and accountability, her performance and that of her government throughout this enquiry was lamentable. As the best debater in Holyrood, with skills honed over a career in adversarial politics, she knows how to parry, obfuscate and shape agendas. She used the same skills before the enquiry.

From her opening statement, the First Minister set out to deflect her government’s failings onto matters beyond the committee’s remit. When confronted with robust questioning, she almost invariably looked to her mentor for support. Alex Salmond became Nicola Sturgeon’s shield to deflect difficult questions. She framed the discussion in simple binary terms: Salmond vs Sturgeon.

As Lord Pentland stated following the concession of the judicial review in 2019, the Scottish Government’s actions were “unlawful in respect that they were procedurally unfair” and “tainted with apparent bias”.

He awarded the highest levels of costs. This was not just a defeat for the Scottish Government in the Court of Session. This was staggering and demanded serious investigation.

We are still left with no explanation, no comfort in assuming that something like this would not happen again. How can we be assured that the repeated failures to disclose information timeously and fully is aberrant and not systemic?

Would this have come to light if anyone other than a former First Minister was centrally involved? Governments are powerful and we must have checks on that power.

SNP members of the committee were execrable. The late indomitable Margo MacDonald feigned spraying house plants in the chamber whenever a planted question was asked by government backbenchers. Margo’s plant spray would have been in frequent use yesterday.

And let us be very clear. This would be no different if another party was in office. Opposition members were, of course, behaving in partisan mode but they at least can claim that their proper role scrutinising government coincided with party interest.

In fairness, Liberal Democrat Alex Cole Hamilton had calmed down since Friday and was more reasoned. Would opposition MSPs have behaved any differently had it been the other way around? That is very doubtful.

A large part of the problem arises from the committee’s inability – sometimes for good reason but not always – to access to relevant information.

There is something fundamentally wrong when important evidence is withheld until there is a threat of no confidence in the Deputy First Minister and then only appears the evening before the First Minister’s appearance in the morning.

This evidence should have been released earlier. It raises the question of whether and what else has been withheld. It stretches credulity to breaking point to dismiss that possibility out of hand. But there has been no shortage of credulous commentary throughout this saga.

Too much commentary has fallen into the binary trap set by the First Minister. To raise serious questions about the conduct of the Scottish Government and the First Minister does not mean taking Alex Salmond’s side.

This binary strategy has severely limited the enquiry and contributed to it becoming a Wilsonian public exhibition. This has not been an exercise in investigating the "actions of the First Minister, Scottish Government officials and special advisers in dealing with complaints about Alex Salmond". It was performative politics, Parliament on public exhibition.

Nicola Sturgeon’s government failed. It failed two women complainants. It failed the Parliament in its consistent refusal to share relevant information. It failed the public in allocating large sums of money, not to improving life chances but on a legal case its advisers warned about. It has failed to be accountable. It has failed to be transparent. This ought to worry all of us, including members of the SNP.

It should be possible in a mature democracy, especially one that may become an independent state, to recognise that the Scottish Government must be more accountable, more transparent and share power.

Whether the parliamentary committee can rise to the occasion in addressing these matters will only become clear when it issues its report (assuming it is even able to agree a report). But don’t hold your breath.

But not to worry all Nicola's childhood friends came out in her support..(on a serious note using a template and fake accounts to create a twitter storm is a pretty crude tactic for a normally slick PR operation like the SNP).




Meanwhile the Justice minister was providing a running commentary (on a witness giving evidence under oath)...totally normal.

[clydecloggie]

Pot kettle black alert. Murdo Fraser, an actual committee member, was happily tweeting his views too. Both wrong, so cool your Unionist froth.

But actually, one argument against independence did gain traction yesterday: that the calibre of Scottish politicians is so poor, it would be madness to have them run a country. That Margaret Mitchell woman - is she just a Scottish Mark Francois? How on Earth did someone with such obvious lack of political talent make it to MSP?

[Tichtheid]

Pot kettle black alert. Murdo Fraser, an actual committee member, was happily tweeting his views too. Both wrong, so cool your Unionist froth.

But actually, one argument against independence did gain traction yesterday: that the calibre of Scottish politicians is so poor, it would be madness to have them run a country. That Margaret Mitchell woman - is she just a Scottish Mark Francois? How on Earth did someone with such obvious lack of political talent make it to MSP?

To be honest, CC, I really don't think there is any better in Westminster. This isn't whataboutery, I do genuinely feel that there is no one in the current UK government with anything about them at all, and very few in opposition.

I'm keeping my powder dry until the outcome of this inquiry is settled.

[tc27]

Murdo's not a minister charge of the criminal justice system....

But actually, one argument against independence did gain traction yesterday: that the calibre of Scottish politicians is so poor, it would be madness to have them run a country. That Margaret Mitchell woman - is she just a Scottish Mark Francois? How on Earth did someone with such obvious lack of political talent make it to MSP?

She's a waste of space but no worse than the SNP MSP's on the committee asking obviously planted questions. I thought Ballie was excellent and even Murdo asked some decent questions (and I am not a fan). Holyrood is a mixture of excellent, mediocre and downright villainous just like Westminster.

I think people will be able to reflect (knowing what we do about the complete disregard for separation of powers and vindictive use of office/influence to go after rivals) on the possibility of the current (or previous) SNP leadership clique having complete control of the founding and (for a number of decades) the running of a state.

[Tichtheid]

I think people will be able to reflect (knowing what we do about the complete disregard for separation of powers and vindictive use of office/influence to go after rivals) on the possibility of the current (or previous) SNP leadership clique having complete control of the founding and (for a number of decades) the running of a state.

Has the inquiry been concluded and a verdict delivered already?

[tc27]

USA to lift tariffs on Scotch whisky from today for four months pending a longer term solution (part of the Airbus dispute). The USA is Scotlands second biggest export market after the rest of the UK so great news.

[Tichtheid]

Good news for the industry regarding the USA market, for context Scotland's export market for whisky by size (I already knew the first four, but I didn't know about Spain and Mexico)

The largest export destinations for Scotch Whisky (defined by volume, 70cl bottles) in 2019 were:
France: 173m bottles -7.9% on 2018.
India: 131m bottles +16.1% on 2018.
USA: 127m bottles -7% on 2018.
Japan: 60m bottles +19.7% on 2018.
Spain: 56m bottles +1.7% on 2018.
Mexico: 51m bottles -14% on 2018.

Google (ie scotchwhisky dot com) tells me 89.2 million bottles were purchased in the UK in 2018

[tc27]

Really surprised by how popular it is in France.

I assumed food and drink would be the biggest export to the USA but infact its advanced manufacturing

What Scotland exports to the USA

The USA is Scotland’s top international export destination. Exports were worth £5.5 billion in 2017. 17.1% of Scotland’s total international exports. (Export Statistics Scotland).

The top 5 Scottish export sectors are:

Engineering and advanced manufacturing

Food and Drink
Financial and Business Services
Technology, Digital and Media
Energy

[Tichtheid]

Something was bugging me about the whisky exports numbers I posted. I've known for a long time that France was the biggest importer by volume, but I had this niggling feeling that we were told by an industry rep at one of our whisky sessions that the US is the biggest importer of premium brands, and that is born out by the numbers when looked at by way of value over volume, with the EU being the most valuable region for exports of the old water of life.

The SWA have numbers from 2019

https://www.scotch-whisky.org.uk/newsro ... certainty/

[Biffer]

Murdo's not a minister charge of the criminal justice system....

No, he's the guy the tories would have in charge of finance if they were in power.

[Slick]

Murdo's not a minister charge of the criminal justice system....

No, he's the guy the tories would have in charge of finance if they were in power.

Great point.

[Caley_Red]

Pot kettle black alert. Murdo Fraser, an actual committee member, was happily tweeting his views too. Both wrong, so cool your Unionist froth.

But actually, one argument against independence did gain traction yesterday: that the calibre of Scottish politicians is so poor, it would be madness to have them run a country. That Margaret Mitchell woman - is she just a Scottish Mark Francois? How on Earth did someone with such obvious lack of political talent make it to MSP?

Genuinely? Out of the entire s*itshow that is the Scottish parliament- with an administration as incompetent and corrupt as this- you pick this non-entity woman (not surprised to find out she wasn't an SNP MSP) out as an example of the poor caliber of politicians in Edinburgh?
I can think of far greater incompetence in the actual cabinet, you know, the one that makes policy affecting the country.

If there is anything to glean from this sorry saga, it's that- on top of the myriad of other reasons why the country shouldn't be having another independence vote- Scottish institutions are in even worse state than previously imagined. Elaborating on what Salmond rightly said, the country isn't even ready (to run itself) in the most basic sense.

If the SNP want another vote, run the country well, enact pro-growth policies, set up robust and non-politicised institutions, reverse many of their own policies which have been a disaster (curriculum for excellence etc.) and make it demonstrably clear that you can run the country better than Westminster. In areas where the SNP have complete control, they've been a disaster and this committee has demonstrated how deep that rot goes, in my view.

[Dogbert]

So if Sturgeon is found guilty of breaching the ministerial code, even if unintentionally , should she resign ?

[Biffer]

Pot kettle black alert. Murdo Fraser, an actual committee member, was happily tweeting his views too. Both wrong, so cool your Unionist froth.

But actually, one argument against independence did gain traction yesterday: that the calibre of Scottish politicians is so poor, it would be madness to have them run a country. That Margaret Mitchell woman - is she just a Scottish Mark Francois? How on Earth did someone with such obvious lack of political talent make it to MSP?

Genuinely? Out of the entire s*itshow that is the Scottish parliament- with an administration as incompetent and corrupt as this- you pick this non-entity woman (not surprised to find out she wasn't an SNP MSP) out as an example of the poor caliber of politicians in Edinburgh?
I can think of far greater incompetence in the actual cabinet, you know, the one that makes policy affecting the country.

If there is anything to glean from this sorry saga, it's that- on top of the myriad of other reasons why the country shouldn't be having another independence vote- Scottish institutions are in even worse state than previously imagined. Elaborating on what Salmond rightly said, the country isn't even ready (to run itself) in the most basic sense.

If the SNP want another vote, run the country well, enact pro-growth policies, set up robust and non-politicised institutions, reverse many of their own policies which have been a disaster (curriculum for excellence etc.) and make it demonstrably clear that you can run the country better than Westminster. In areas where the SNP have complete control, they've been a disaster and this committee has demonstrated how deep that rot goes, in my view.

I feel it’s necessary to point out that the Tories picked her as one of their committee nominees, so they thought she was one of the most capable of holding the First Minister to account.

[Big D]

Pot kettle black alert. Murdo Fraser, an actual committee member, was happily tweeting his views too. Both wrong, so cool your Unionist froth.

But actually, one argument against independence did gain traction yesterday: that the calibre of Scottish politicians is so poor, it would be madness to have them run a country. That Margaret Mitchell woman - is she just a Scottish Mark Francois? How on Earth did someone with such obvious lack of political talent make it to MSP?

Genuinely? Out of the entire s*itshow that is the Scottish parliament- with an administration as incompetent and corrupt as this- you pick this non-entity woman (not surprised to find out she wasn't an SNP MSP) out as an example of the poor caliber of politicians in Edinburgh?
I can think of far greater incompetence in the actual cabinet, you know, the one that makes policy affecting the country.

If there is anything to glean from this sorry saga, it's that- on top of the myriad of other reasons why the country shouldn't be having another independence vote- Scottish institutions are in even worse state than previously imagined. Elaborating on what Salmond rightly said, the country isn't even ready (to run itself) in the most basic sense.

If the SNP want another vote, run the country well, enact pro-growth policies, set up robust and non-politicised institutions, reverse many of their own policies which have been a disaster (curriculum for excellence etc.) and make it demonstrably clear that you can run the country better than Westminster. In areas where the SNP have complete control, they've been a disaster and this committee has demonstrated how deep that rot goes, in my view.

I feel it’s necessary to point out that the Tories picked her as one of their committee nominees, so they thought she was one of the most capable of holding the First Minister to account.

To be fair she is a qualified lawyer so on paper would have seemed as good a candidate as any. Of course we know looking good on paper counts for feck all.

[Big D]

So if Sturgeon is found guilty of breaching the ministerial code, even if unintentionally , should she resign ?

In my opinion no.

I have said on here I don't like the "but look at Westmister" argument because the behaviour of one group of poorly behaved MPs should be the standard we require of ours. I want politicians who hold themselves to and are held to a higher ethical and behavioural standard.

For me if it can be proven she has accidently breached the code then she shouldn't resign. It should be a final warning though, at one point she is or has been the highest paid politician in the UK she should know the code. A second accidental breach would be scarcely believable.

There are questions hanging over her, particularly the one about when she first heard about the Salmond allegations that I think are seriously questionable but if a committee and investigations do not uncover a breach of the code that can be shown to have been deliberate or not clearly accidental then she should stay in position. It should be the electorate that hold her to account (or likely not due to the dominant political issue) at the ballot box.

The scrutiny, which many have decried, is important.

[Slick]

So if Sturgeon is found guilty of breaching the ministerial code, even if unintentionally , should she resign ?

I dunno, it's a tough one.

As I've said before, I like Sturgeon and I think she could be a great leader for Scotland if she could just be persuaded that there is a country to run between the constant independence agenda. From a purely selfish point of view, her resigning would, possibly temporarily, throw independence into the long grass for a good while. But what would come after her.... don't fancy that.

If she has broken the code then that doesn't get me excited to be honest. If she can be proven to have lied, which she has through her teeth, then that would be a different matter, but that will never get proven.

The best result would be that SG looks inward, that the politicisation of the civil service and other institutions (which should be a national scandal and recognised as a huge danger, but won't be) is reversed and that we almost start with a clean slate with her continuing as FM. But that won't happen.

[Biffer]

Genuinely? Out of the entire s*itshow that is the Scottish parliament- with an administration as incompetent and corrupt as this- you pick this non-entity woman (not surprised to find out she wasn't an SNP MSP) out as an example of the poor caliber of politicians in Edinburgh?
I can think of far greater incompetence in the actual cabinet, you know, the one that makes policy affecting the country.

If there is anything to glean from this sorry saga, it's that- on top of the myriad of other reasons why the country shouldn't be having another independence vote- Scottish institutions are in even worse state than previously imagined. Elaborating on what Salmond rightly said, the country isn't even ready (to run itself) in the most basic sense.

If the SNP want another vote, run the country well, enact pro-growth policies, set up robust and non-politicised institutions, reverse many of their own policies which have been a disaster (curriculum for excellence etc.) and make it demonstrably clear that you can run the country better than Westminster. In areas where the SNP have complete control, they've been a disaster and this committee has demonstrated how deep that rot goes, in my view.

I feel it’s necessary to point out that the Tories picked her as one of their committee nominees, so they thought she was one of the most capable of holding the First Minister to account.

To be fair she is a qualified lawyer so on paper would have seemed as good a candidate as any. Of course we know looking good on paper counts for feck all.

Yeah. Her colleagues, you would imagine, had met her and spoken to her previously.

[Slick]

I'm sure you would all like to join me in congratulating Rangers on the league title.

I thought this was the appropriate thread.

[Tichtheid]

I'm sure you would all like to join me in congratulating Rangers on the league title.

I thought this was the appropriate thread.

I remember during the referendum campaign a march was going on in Glasgow in favour of a Yes vote. There were people on the side of the road in Rangers scarves swearing at the marchers and calling them "traitors".

On the other side, that campaign was the first time I'd heard the word Quisling, an equally stupid epithet.

[Slick]

I'm sure you would all like to join me in congratulating Rangers on the league title.

I thought this was the appropriate thread.

I remember during the referendum campaign a march was going on in Glasgow in favour of a Yes vote. There were people on the side of the road in Rangers scarves swearing at the marchers and calling them "traitors".

On the other side, that campaign was the first time I'd heard the word Quisling, an equally stupid epithet.

Half of my family are season ticket holders, and the other half used to enjoy the odd Orange march. My dad was fiercely against any of that nonsense, it's why he first took up rugby. I guess some of it seeps through though, if I had to pick a footie team, with a gun to my head, it would be them.

[clydecloggie]

I'm sure you would all like to join me in congratulating Rangers on the league title.

I thought this was the appropriate thread.

Nice for them.

I've never been into footie much, but I used to live a stone's throw away from Ibrox in leafy Dumbreck. I was moving house on the day of an Old Firm match and had borrowed a van off a friend, which happened to be green. At some point a bloke walks past with his dog and shouts 'you must be a happy man'. I had absolutely no idea what he was on about, but he then helpfully informed me 'they were 1-0 up'.

This shit just runs sooo deep in Glasgow. Drive a green van, you must be a Celtic fan.

[Tattie]

I'm sure you would all like to join me in congratulating Rangers on the league title.

I thought this was the appropriate thread.

Nice for them.

I've never been into footie much, but I used to live a stone's throw away from Ibrox in leafy Dumbreck. I was moving house on the day of an Old Firm match and had borrowed a van off a friend, which happened to be green. At some point a bloke walks past with his dog and shouts 'you must be a happy man'. I had absolutely no idea what he was on about, but he then helpfully informed me 'they were 1-0 up'.

This shit just runs sooo deep in Glasgow. Drive a green van, you must be a Celtic fan.

My ex boss, born and brought up as a ministers son in the West-end of Glasgow and a big Rangers fan - very intelligent, urbane, cultured, MBA etc. Turns into a slavering, neanderthal mess when it comes to fitba - would never wear green, FTP (to be fair he hates all organised religion despite his background) etc. Every single cliche about Rangers fans = him.

[TheNatalShark]

Whilst the most senior position in Scotland has become available as McInnes is functionally sacked.

Shame, players really seemed to have enjoyed him but performances and importantly results against Celtic in the last few years haven't been adequate. Social distancing from the opposition net.

[Slick]

Patrick Grady, SNP Chief Whip at Westminster, steps down due to sexual harassment allegations.

I’ve met him a couple of times in his office and he is certainly a bit odd

[SaintK]

Patrick Grady, SNP Chief Whip at Westminster, steps down due to sexual harassment allegations.

I’ve met him a couple of times in his office and he is certainly a bit odd

Is he the one that was accused of "groping" male researchers some years ago?
Can't believe that is still ongoing if so!

[Slick]

Patrick Grady, SNP Chief Whip at Westminster, steps down due to sexual harassment allegations.

I’ve met him a couple of times in his office and he is certainly a bit odd

Is he the one that was accused of "groping" male researchers some years ago?
Can't believe that is still ongoing if so!

Yup, same one

[tc27]

Any opinions on the Hate Crime Bill?

[Tichtheid]

Any opinions on the Hate Crime Bill?

I've seen a criticism that sex wasn't included

[westport]

Any opinions on the Hate Crime Bill?

Don't hurt the feelings, by saying something, of the alphabet soup genders but it is alright to hurt the feelings of women

[Biffer]

Any opinions on the Hate Crime Bill?

Don't hurt the feelings, by saying something, of the alphabet soup genders but it is alright to hurt the feelings of women

If you genuinely think that's what it's about, you've not bothered to look into it except through superficial newspaper headlines.

[westport]

Any opinions on the Hate Crime Bill?

Don't hurt the feelings, by saying something, of the alphabet soup genders but it is alright to hurt the feelings of women

If you genuinely think that's what it's about, you've not bothered to look into it except through superficial newspaper headlines.

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh

Sorry i forgot to put the smiley thingy on my comment, I will go to re-education camp straight away

[Biffer]

Don't hurt the feelings, by saying something, of the alphabet soup genders but it is alright to hurt the feelings of women

If you genuinely think that's what it's about, you've not bothered to look into it except through superficial newspaper headlines.

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh

Sorry i forgot to put the smiley thingy on my comment

It's just that we've got some people who think it genuinely threatens their free speech. There's some who are treating it as if it's the start of a police state.