NPR

I would also offer that the UK suffers from the same disease as the US, & it doesn't value technical, or infrastructure careers in the same way as Financial. The result probably of the Thacher phased destruction of manufacturing, & the simultaneous "Big-Bang" happening in the City. The likes of Korea, & Japan actually value this work.

Is it a coincidence that you went from a high with the Victorians, when you led the world; to needing foreign companies to build your power stations ? The French passed you by with their trains, & their commitment to building a large number of Nuclear plants, & damn any objections !

The US has the same crisis in infrastructure, but they still maintain a real, substantial High-Tech sector, & have enough oil that they don't need to face up to all of the Nuclear plants being decommissioned.

fishfoodie wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 1:27 pm I would also offer that the UK suffers from the same disease as the US, & it doesn't value technical, or infrastructure careers in the same way as Financial. The result probably of the Thacher phased destruction of manufacturing, & the simultaneous "Big-Bang" happening in the City. The likes of Korea, & Japan actually value this work.

Is it a coincidence that you went from a high with the Victorians, when you led the world; to needing foreign companies to build your power stations ? The French passed you by with their trains, & their commitment to building a large number of Nuclear plants, & damn any objections !

The US has the same crisis in infrastructure, but they still maintain a real, substantial High-Tech sector, & have enough oil that they don't need to face up to all of the Nuclear plants being decommissioned.

The US does, however, value technology and science, which means they still have tech industry whereas in the UK we somehow seem to think this should all be done by people in China.

Biffer wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 2:14 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 1:27 pm I would also offer that the UK suffers from the same disease as the US, & it doesn't value technical, or infrastructure careers in the same way as Financial. The result probably of the Thacher phased destruction of manufacturing, & the simultaneous "Big-Bang" happening in the City. The likes of Korea, & Japan actually value this work.

Is it a coincidence that you went from a high with the Victorians, when you led the world; to needing foreign companies to build your power stations ? The French passed you by with their trains, & their commitment to building a large number of Nuclear plants, & damn any objections !

The US has the same crisis in infrastructure, but they still maintain a real, substantial High-Tech sector, & have enough oil that they don't need to face up to all of the Nuclear plants being decommissioned.

The US does, however, value technology and science, which means they still have tech industry whereas in the UK we somehow seem to think this should all be done by people in China.

The Tories are the least patriotic party in that they will pretty sell everything off to anyone. If it hasn't been sold off it is probably because it would piss off our NATO partners. We are a short termist service industry country and totally deserve the infrastructure we have with slow trains, shit encrusted beaches and rivers that is incapable of making large scale power stations and certainly some of the forgings required for them.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:37 am

Uncle fester wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:04 am In tandem with what's going on at scunthorpe, Britain will be the only g20 country that doesn't have any steel making capability.

And it’s the direct result of government strategy. They want them gone for net zero commitments, and they’ve forced them out with the highest industrial energy prices in Europe. Good job the global order is so secure we can just buy it on the open market.

The people of Port Talbot need to get with the program and start selling houses and financial products to each other.

Biffer wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 2:14 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 1:27 pm I would also offer that the UK suffers from the same disease as the US, & it doesn't value technical, or infrastructure careers in the same way as Financial. The result probably of the Thacher phased destruction of manufacturing, & the simultaneous "Big-Bang" happening in the City. The likes of Korea, & Japan actually value this work.

Is it a coincidence that you went from a high with the Victorians, when you led the world; to needing foreign companies to build your power stations ? The French passed you by with their trains, & their commitment to building a large number of Nuclear plants, & damn any objections !

The US has the same crisis in infrastructure, but they still maintain a real, substantial High-Tech sector, & have enough oil that they don't need to face up to all of the Nuclear plants being decommissioned.

The US does, however, value technology and science, which means they still have tech industry whereas in the UK we somehow seem to think this should all be done by people in China.

The do & the don't. The pay is still shit & the hours are awful, & US graduates leave University with a mammoth amount of debt, so the companies prefer to hire 100 H1Bs from India, & China, keep the 10-15 who will work for buttons, & don't mind the 16+ hr days, & then they cancel all the rest & send them back home.

I'm friends with a really excellent engineer on the West coast, & he has four boys, & he said that if he'd anything to do with it, none of them would go into Engineering or Tech, his wife was top 10 in her Harvard Law year, & he said he'd much prefer they followed her path.

Just what the world needs; more fucking lawyers

That's a fairly common refrain.
Of our engineering class, there's not one who would do the course we did if the clock got wound back.

I'm on my way back from the Alps via train tgv eurostar apart from brexit mangling customs. Slow and expensive train from Paddington to Bristol Delayed, then someones committed suicide in maidenhead on the trainline. Had to get taxi to Reading. Tory ripoff Britain
The UK is fucking shit. Also the lifts at the French train stations fucking worked unlike at Paddington. The French also employ staff who are like helpful.

Uncle fester wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 6:47 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:37 am

Uncle fester wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:04 am In tandem with what's going on at scunthorpe, Britain will be the only g20 country that doesn't have any steel making capability.

And it’s the direct result of government strategy. They want them gone for net zero commitments, and they’ve forced them out with the highest industrial energy prices in Europe. Good job the global order is so secure we can just buy it on the open market.

The people of Port Talbot need to get with the program and start selling houses and financial products to each other.

Or just become drug dealers ?

I'm mean, how much gear would you have to shift to equal a Tata salary ?

With the cuts to the Police & the courts, you could probably deal for 3-4 months a year, then take the cash to Spain, or Turkey & live off it for the rest.

Best of all; no Income Tax, no VAT !

fishfoodie wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 8:56 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 6:47 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:37 am

And it’s the direct result of government strategy. They want them gone for net zero commitments, and they’ve forced them out with the highest industrial energy prices in Europe. Good job the global order is so secure we can just buy it on the open market.

The people of Port Talbot need to get with the program and start selling houses and financial products to each other.

Or just become drug dealers ?

I'm mean, how much gear would you have to shift to equal a Tata salary ?

With the cuts to the Police & the courts, you could probably deal for 3-4 months a year, then take the cash to Spain, or Turkey & live off it for the rest.

Best of all; no Income Tax, no VAT !

Some of that just sounds like selling financial products to siphon of as much money as possible to some shitstain somewhere in the world.

petej wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 9:20 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 8:56 pm

Uncle fester wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 6:47 pm

The people of Port Talbot need to get with the program and start selling houses and financial products to each other.

Or just become drug dealers ?

I'm mean, how much gear would you have to shift to equal a Tata salary ?

With the cuts to the Police & the courts, you could probably deal for 3-4 months a year, then take the cash to Spain, or Turkey & live off it for the rest.

Best of all; no Income Tax, no VAT !

Some of that just sounds like selling financial products to siphon of as much money as possible to some shitstain somewhere in the world.

I don't think drug dealers seek out their customers, & pester them until the buy some over priced pile of shite.

Financial dealers are like used car salesmen that welds together two written off cars, tint the windows & put a £50 loud exhaust on the car, & go out to convince some clueless idiot to spend twice as much as they have on a car that will be lucky to last the week.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:37 am

Uncle fester wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:04 am In tandem with what's going on at scunthorpe, Britain will be the only g20 country that doesn't have any steel making capability.

And it’s the direct result of government strategy. They want them gone for net zero commitments, and they’ve forced them out with the highest industrial energy prices in Europe. Good job the global order is so secure we can just buy it on the open market.

Ex-Welsh first minister and an Observer article from 2021 (clearly expressing a Labour party line at the time) both say it's about Brexit and the Tory vision on trade. I know you're not a fan of the libertarianism, but that looks like the main driver and not net zero (the Tories don't care about that, they're okay with a new coal mine which at one point was supposedly going to provide coal for the steel works which now will not exist). The Jacob Rees-Mogg approach of "throw open the borders to all imports and the UK will be wealthy" looks like the culprit, fucking madness as that means competing against any state that subsidises their own industry and/or has import barriers in place. It's the death of UK steel. The Tories don't seem to care, one of the Brexit promises was that UK steel would be protected, obvious now that the Tories will protect nothing.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ies-warned

Leaving the SM was objectively bad for trade but he doesn't really provide evidence to back his claim making it the cuplrit for PT. I recall the UK/EU TCA has a zero tariff rate for steel..happy to be corrected. The SM is impactul on services and manufactured products rather than basic industrial commodities.

On the other hand its objectively true electricity for industry and househoulds is much more expensive in the UK due to the decision to subsidise renewables by having a price floor linked to expensive imported natural gas.

Reasonably relatively greater expensive production costs are far more likely to be the cause than than 0% tariffs on steel.

As an aside I think there is an overwhelming national interest in keeping steel production capability so a governent backed company should be considered.

Also lots of bias against FS here.

Access to credit and other FS is an absolutely vital part of the economy and hugely lucrative. It reaches into every part of the 'real' economy..I know farmers who use futures.

tc27 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 1:40 pm Also lots of bias against FS here.

Access to credit and other FS is an absolutely vital part of the economy and hugely lucrative. It reaches into every part of the 'real' economy..I know farmers who use futures.

It’s not that FS are evil, or they’re unnecessary. It’s that we shouldn’t have an economy that is structured exclusively for their benefit.

Biffer wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:39 pm

tc27 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 1:40 pm Also lots of bias against FS here.

Access to credit and other FS is an absolutely vital part of the economy and hugely lucrative. It reaches into every part of the 'real' economy..I know farmers who use futures.

It’s not that FS are evil, or they’re unnecessary. It’s that we shouldn’t have an economy that is structured exclusively for their benefit.

I think it’s hard to sustain that we’ve had actively pro FS governments since the GFC. The truth is that if you have one industry that pays over double all the others, heavily concentrated in your most attractive city for young people to live in, you’re going to see a drain from everything else into it. Don’t really have a solution

Biffer wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:39 pm

tc27 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 1:40 pm Also lots of bias against FS here.

Access to credit and other FS is an absolutely vital part of the economy and hugely lucrative. It reaches into every part of the 'real' economy..I know farmers who use futures.

It’s not that FS are evil, or they’re unnecessary. It’s that we shouldn’t have an economy that is structured exclusively for their benefit.

Especially when they are like hydrophobic rats when it comes to their funding the tech sector startups that everyone is belatedly eager to create.

Too fucking late people, you should have done this when you were inside the EU, but now the options are the US, or the EU, because then they can get the VC & other funding, & not have to fuck around with a HO that goes out of it's way to make it difficult to hire people from outside the UK, because surprise, surprise they can't get the candidates in the UK.

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:57 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:39 pm

tc27 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 1:40 pm Also lots of bias against FS here.

Access to credit and other FS is an absolutely vital part of the economy and hugely lucrative. It reaches into every part of the 'real' economy..I know farmers who use futures.

It’s not that FS are evil, or they’re unnecessary. It’s that we shouldn’t have an economy that is structured exclusively for their benefit.

Especially when they are like hydrophobic rats when it comes to their funding the tech sector startups that everyone is belatedly eager to create.

Too fucking late people, you should have done this when you were inside the EU, but now the options are the US, or the EU, because then they can get the VC & other funding, & not have to fuck around with a HO that goes out of it's way to make it difficult to hire people from outside the UK, because surprise, surprise they can't get the candidates in the UK.

Yeah, I work with startups and most of the ones who have decent prospects for growth go to the US for investment.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:48 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:39 pm

tc27 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 1:40 pm Also lots of bias against FS here.

Access to credit and other FS is an absolutely vital part of the economy and hugely lucrative. It reaches into every part of the 'real' economy..I know farmers who use futures.

It’s not that FS are evil, or they’re unnecessary. It’s that we shouldn’t have an economy that is structured exclusively for their benefit.

I think it’s hard to sustain that we’ve had actively pro FS governments since the GFC. The truth is that if you have one industry that pays over double all the others, heavily concentrated in your most attractive city for young people to live in, you’re going to see a drain from everything else into it. Don’t really have a solution

Investment in other areas? Like the Germans did in the former East Germany? Thirty years ago it was a failed communist economy. Now every region has a higher gdp per person than the UK. Because they invested in infrastructure, technology and education.

Uk gov has now set up a decent infrastructure investment model, the sovereign investment guarantee via the UK investment bank. Allows infrastructure spending with only a fraction of it showing up as government debt. But Hunt would rather chuck in tax cuts, rather than using the funding he has available for that to create tens of billions of infrastructure investment.

Biffer wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 3:57 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:48 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:39 pm

It’s not that FS are evil, or they’re unnecessary. It’s that we shouldn’t have an economy that is structured exclusively for their benefit.

I think it’s hard to sustain that we’ve had actively pro FS governments since the GFC. The truth is that if you have one industry that pays over double all the others, heavily concentrated in your most attractive city for young people to live in, you’re going to see a drain from everything else into it. Don’t really have a solution

Investment in other areas? Like the Germans did in the former East Germany? Thirty years ago it was a failed communist economy. Now every region has a higher gdp per person than the UK. Because they invested in infrastructure, technology and education.

Uk gov has now set up a decent infrastructure investment model, the sovereign investment guarantee via the UK investment bank. Allows infrastructure spending with only a fraction of it showing up as government debt. But Hunt would rather chuck in tax cuts, rather than using the funding he has available for that to create tens of billions of infrastructure investment.

You’re preaching to the choir on infrastructure investment, I don’t think it changes the fact that FS will always hoover up the brightest and best in Britain

Biffer wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:39 pm

tc27 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 1:40 pm Also lots of bias against FS here.

Access to credit and other FS is an absolutely vital part of the economy and hugely lucrative. It reaches into every part of the 'real' economy..I know farmers who use futures.

It’s not that FS are evil, or they’re unnecessary. It’s that we shouldn’t have an economy that is structured exclusively for their benefit.

I wouldn’t even specify financial services. I would just say services industries. Our overweight legal services loves to interpret sensible regulations weirdly. Of course being legal won't admit when wrong and will even say the regulator is wrong.

Biffer wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 3:57 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:48 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:39 pm

It’s not that FS are evil, or they’re unnecessary. It’s that we shouldn’t have an economy that is structured exclusively for their benefit.

I think it’s hard to sustain that we’ve had actively pro FS governments since the GFC. The truth is that if you have one industry that pays over double all the others, heavily concentrated in your most attractive city for young people to live in, you’re going to see a drain from everything else into it. Don’t really have a solution

Investment in other areas? Like the Germans did in the former East Germany? Thirty years ago it was a failed communist economy. Now every region has a higher gdp per person than the UK. Because they invested in infrastructure, technology and education.

Uk gov has now set up a decent infrastructure investment model, the sovereign investment guarantee via the UK investment bank. Allows infrastructure spending with only a fraction of it showing up as government debt. But Hunt would rather chuck in tax cuts, rather than using the funding he has available for that to create tens of billions of infrastructure investment.

Tax cuts are vote winners, so you could blame Joe Public for that.

Hunt is doing it, and has with the recent cut in NI, Khan is doing it in london with frozen transport fares.

Hard to ignore that people will vote for whoever gives them more money in the immediate term.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 4:04 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 3:57 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:48 pm

I think it’s hard to sustain that we’ve had actively pro FS governments since the GFC. The truth is that if you have one industry that pays over double all the others, heavily concentrated in your most attractive city for young people to live in, you’re going to see a drain from everything else into it. Don’t really have a solution

Investment in other areas? Like the Germans did in the former East Germany? Thirty years ago it was a failed communist economy. Now every region has a higher gdp per person than the UK. Because they invested in infrastructure, technology and education.

Uk gov has now set up a decent infrastructure investment model, the sovereign investment guarantee via the UK investment bank. Allows infrastructure spending with only a fraction of it showing up as government debt. But Hunt would rather chuck in tax cuts, rather than using the funding he has available for that to create tens of billions of infrastructure investment.

You’re preaching to the choir on infrastructure investment, I don’t think it changes the fact that FS will always hoover up the brightest and best in Britain

Such a no brainer on things like rail where we lack capacity to run more services. The best and brightest as defined by our educational system. We probably also underweight the impact of geography in these things. I've had oxbridge grads who are useless liabilities and former apprentices who are excellent and vice versa. We've over idealised a single pathway.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 4:04 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 3:57 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:48 pm

I think it’s hard to sustain that we’ve had actively pro FS governments since the GFC. The truth is that if you have one industry that pays over double all the others, heavily concentrated in your most attractive city for young people to live in, you’re going to see a drain from everything else into it. Don’t really have a solution

Investment in other areas? Like the Germans did in the former East Germany? Thirty years ago it was a failed communist economy. Now every region has a higher gdp per person than the UK. Because they invested in infrastructure, technology and education.

Uk gov has now set up a decent infrastructure investment model, the sovereign investment guarantee via the UK investment bank. Allows infrastructure spending with only a fraction of it showing up as government debt. But Hunt would rather chuck in tax cuts, rather than using the funding he has available for that to create tens of billions of infrastructure investment.

You’re preaching to the choir on infrastructure investment, I don’t think it changes the fact that FS will always hoover up the brightest and best in Britain

Theres loads of low hanging fruit for UK infrastructure. High speed/capacity rail between all UK cities including Edinburgh and Glascow be a minimum. Linking the Northern English cities together and buiding metro transport systems (trams etc) within them is an obvious step. Really Manchester and Liverpool should be a continuous metro area.
Facing down the Nimbies and allowing development of labs and commerce around Oxford and Cambridge would be a huge boost.

Its a shame given the powers they have the devolved goverments haven't done better and shown its possible.

tc27 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:26 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 4:04 pm

Biffer wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 3:57 pm

Investment in other areas? Like the Germans did in the former East Germany? Thirty years ago it was a failed communist economy. Now every region has a higher gdp per person than the UK. Because they invested in infrastructure, technology and education.

Uk gov has now set up a decent infrastructure investment model, the sovereign investment guarantee via the UK investment bank. Allows infrastructure spending with only a fraction of it showing up as government debt. But Hunt would rather chuck in tax cuts, rather than using the funding he has available for that to create tens of billions of infrastructure investment.

You’re preaching to the choir on infrastructure investment, I don’t think it changes the fact that FS will always hoover up the brightest and best in Britain

Theres loads of low hanging fruit for UK infrastructure. High speed/capacity rail between all UK cities including Edinburgh and Glascow be a minimum. Linking the Northern English cities together and buiding metro transport systems (trams etc) within them is an obvious step. Really Manchester and Liverpool should be a continuous metro area.
Facing down the Nimbies and allowing development of labs and commerce around Oxford and Cambridge would be a huge boost.

Its a shame given the powers they have the devolved goverments haven't done better and shown its possible.

Devolved governments have limited borrowing powers. Even with those limits, the Scottish government has completed the M8, built a new line between Edinburgh and Glasgow, Built a new Forth crossing, built the border railway and built the Aberdeen bypass. There’s also the argument that many of these investments should be considered national infrastructure and be outside regional budgets. It’s pretty disgraceful that completing the M8, or the new forth bridge, weren’t considered national infrastructure, but, for example, widening the A13 was.

I dont think its contentious to say the devolved goverments record is not an example of brilliance in transport infrastructure (but also fair to point out it got some things right as has UK wide government).

The devolved governments got Barnett consequentials from some seriously expensive projects like HS2 and Crossrail and can even issue UK backed gilts so its not due to lack of funding

fishfoodie wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 7:01 pm

Biffer wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 2:14 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 1:27 pm I would also offer that the UK suffers from the same disease as the US, & it doesn't value technical, or infrastructure careers in the same way as Financial. The result probably of the Thacher phased destruction of manufacturing, & the simultaneous "Big-Bang" happening in the City. The likes of Korea, & Japan actually value this work.

Is it a coincidence that you went from a high with the Victorians, when you led the world; to needing foreign companies to build your power stations ? The French passed you by with their trains, & their commitment to building a large number of Nuclear plants, & damn any objections !

The US has the same crisis in infrastructure, but they still maintain a real, substantial High-Tech sector, & have enough oil that they don't need to face up to all of the Nuclear plants being decommissioned.

The US does, however, value technology and science, which means they still have tech industry whereas in the UK we somehow seem to think this should all be done by people in China.

The do & the don't. The pay is still shit & the hours are awful, & US graduates leave University with a mammoth amount of debt, so the companies prefer to hire 100 H1Bs from India, & China, keep the 10-15 who will work for buttons, & don't mind the 16+ hr days, & then they cancel all the rest & send them back home.

I'm friends with a really excellent engineer on the West coast, & he has four boys, & he said that if he'd anything to do with it, none of them would go into Engineering or Tech, his wife was top 10 in her Harvard Law year, & he said he'd much prefer they followed her path.

Just what the world needs; more fucking lawyers

Not altogether true.

One of the reasons Ireland does so well at Tech FDI (or did until now), is that we have or can attract euro techies/engineers at 100k -150k salaries that would be at least double that in California.

Camroc2 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 11:28 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 7:01 pm

Biffer wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 2:14 pm

The US does, however, value technology and science, which means they still have tech industry whereas in the UK we somehow seem to think this should all be done by people in China.

The do & the don't. The pay is still shit & the hours are awful, & US graduates leave University with a mammoth amount of debt, so the companies prefer to hire 100 H1Bs from India, & China, keep the 10-15 who will work for buttons, & don't mind the 16+ hr days, & then they cancel all the rest & send them back home.

I'm friends with a really excellent engineer on the West coast, & he has four boys, & he said that if he'd anything to do with it, none of them would go into Engineering or Tech, his wife was top 10 in her Harvard Law year, & he said he'd much prefer they followed her path.

Just what the world needs; more fucking lawyers

Not altogether true.

One of the reasons Ireland does so well at Tech FDI (or did until now), is that we have or can attract euro techies/engineers at 100k -150k salaries that would be at least double that in California.

California isn't where most tech happens, exactly because of the excruciating cost of doing business there.

I worked for Intel, & they moved almost all serious work out of the Valley around 2000; there were senior managers living in RVs in the car park during the week, & then they'd drive home for the weekends.

My friend is in Oregon, where like Arizona, he majority of the Intel workforce now is. We are loosing our advantage because of the housing crisis, & the cost of same around Dublin; there's a good reason it was Galway that was the new proposed location for Intel.

But the discussion was around how well compensated Engineers & Scientists are compensated overall, versus the likes of lawyers, & the statistics are stark.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/218 ... al-groups/

tc27 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 11:23 pm I dont think its contentious to say the devolved goverments record is not an example of brilliance in transport infrastructure (but also fair to point out it got some things right as has UK wide government).

The devolved governments got Barnett consequentials from some seriously expensive projects like HS2 and Crossrail and can even issue UK backed gilts so its not due to lack of funding

Scotland has had more investment spend in infrastructure, per person, than anywhere apart from London. If other areas were having the money spent on them by Westminster at that level, there would be billions more spent each year.

tc27 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 1:35 pm Leaving the SM was objectively bad for trade but he doesn't really provide evidence to back his claim making it the cuplrit for PT. I recall the UK/EU TCA has a zero tariff rate for steel..happy to be corrected. The SM is impactul on services and manufactured products rather than basic industrial commodities.

On the other hand its objectively true electricity for industry and househoulds is much more expensive in the UK due to the decision to subsidise renewables by having a price floor linked to expensive imported natural gas.

Reasonably relatively greater expensive production costs are far more likely to be the cause than than 0% tariffs on steel.

As an aside I think there is an overwhelming national interest in keeping steel production capability so a governent backed company should be considered.

Good point on the electricity price. My assumption was that green policies were being blamed on the basis of coal/coke being used to make steel. Tata claim they're going to build an electric arc furnace to recycle scrap steel (axing your workforce only to rehire half of them in half a decade seems an odd way to do this, have to wonder if it'll ever happen). I'm guessing that planned furnace will consume less electricity than a coal fired blast furnace? It's outside any knowledge I have.

The problem with the TCA compared to the SM, is the type of large investment which can only come from a multi national, or the state (uncommon in the UK since Thatcher), or both (common in the UK), is at the mercy of thorough risk management. Large capital investment requires all risks to be minimised. If the UK and EU end up in dispute, likely through political positions one side takes (the UK has looked more likely but there's a chance in the future an EU member could do something forcing the EU to back them or not), then a trade war is a possibility and tariffs return.

The issue with "the national interest" you mention, is there's never a strong sense the UK has one, never much of a plan. When there is a plan it's often not fully implemented (eg HS2). Does anyone know what the UK's desired energy mix is, there was a plan for a large nuclear build but most of that never went anywhere. It's the same for trade, there's no sense of what the UK is trying to achieve, each new development is disconnected from the last. A focus of the TCA was the automotive industry and requirements for reduced tariff access, central to that is rules of origin. If there was a joined up plan there would be a desire to retain UK steel production because that safeguards meeting rule of origin requirements in the TCA (and any other trade deals). The lower the value of UK inputs into the finished product the higher the value of EU inputs into the finished product needed, to be rules of origin compliant.

Biffer wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 12:14 am

tc27 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 11:23 pm I dont think its contentious to say the devolved goverments record is not an example of brilliance in transport infrastructure (but also fair to point out it got some things right as has UK wide government).

The devolved governments got Barnett consequentials from some seriously expensive projects like HS2 and Crossrail and can even issue UK backed gilts so its not due to lack of funding

Scotland has had more investment spend in infrastructure, per person, than anywhere apart from London. If other areas were having the money spent on them by Westminster at that level, there would be billions more spent each year.

Just a guess but maybe this has something to do with the size of the county, the size of the population and the natural geography? Barnett formula has the impact of some of these built into it in order to protect more remote populations and fight the dangers of depopulation of remote and rural areas. Same with other services which need to be subsidized in order to ensure their existence and viability ie health and social care where, for example, population size alone is insufficient to sustain a staffed and working DGH, maternity services or even a viable GP practice.

dpedin wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 10:14 am

Biffer wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 12:14 am

tc27 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 11:23 pm I dont think its contentious to say the devolved goverments record is not an example of brilliance in transport infrastructure (but also fair to point out it got some things right as has UK wide government).

The devolved governments got Barnett consequentials from some seriously expensive projects like HS2 and Crossrail and can even issue UK backed gilts so its not due to lack of funding

Scotland has had more investment spend in infrastructure, per person, than anywhere apart from London. If other areas were having the money spent on them by Westminster at that level, there would be billions more spent each year.

Just a guess but maybe this has something to do with the size of the county, the size of the population and the natural geography? Barnett formula has the impact of some of these built into it in order to protect more remote populations and fight the dangers of depopulation of remote and rural areas. Same with other services which need to be subsidized in order to ensure their existence and viability ie health and social care where, for example, population size alone is insufficient to sustain a staffed and working DGH, maternity services or even a viable GP practice.

Historically, it wasn’t the case prior to the Scottish parliament. That’s not a pro Indy or pro snp point as it started under labour / libs in Holyrood. It demonstrates the benefit of strong regional voices that are focussed on their areas instead of national politics.

Lucy Frazer getting taken apart on Sky News by Kay Burley wrt BBC bias.

Biffer wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:02 am Lucy Frazer getting taken apart on Sky News by Kay Burley wrt BBC bias.

I saw her on ITV this morning and similar points were put to her, along with another one not mentioned there. Susanna Reid pointed out that if the BBC or ofCom had received complaints from pro-Brexit supporters and Remain supporters on the coverage of the issue, then that would show there was a perception of partiality from two opposing sides, but it would not be evidence of bias.

More evidence, as if any is required, that we have agovernment stuffed full of political pygmies.

Burley's not even asking particularly difficult questions.

sockwithaticket wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 11:32 am More evidence, as if any is required, that we have agovernment stuffed full of political pygmies.

Burley's not even asking particularly difficult questions.

She was expecting the support of one broadcaster, when she was rubbishing another broadcaster; after all when she talked to Kuenssberg, she absolutely agreed with her that the Beeb was biased....

She didn't understand that these broadcasters sometimes think of themselves as Journalists first, & broadcasters second. There's also the stench of decay & death about the Tories these days, & what's the value to tying yourself to a Party that might be behind the Lib Dems next year ?

_Os_ wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 10:11 am Good point on the electricity price. My assumption was that green policies were being blamed on the basis of coal/coke being used to make steel. Tata claim they're going to build an electric arc furnace to recycle scrap steel (axing your workforce only to rehire half of them in half a decade seems an odd way to do this, have to wonder if it'll ever happen). I'm guessing that planned furnace will consume less electricity than a coal fired blast furnace? It's outside any knowledge I have.

An electric arc furnace uses more electricity than a coal fired blast furnace, clue is in the name, but I don't assume much if I know nothing about a subject.



It looks like: Trading future where rules of origin will matter more than they did inside the SM/CU. Open a new coal mine partly justified by providing coal for blast furnaces. Close down the blast furnaces. Electric arc furnace/s that recycle scrap steel proposed as the replacement, which use more electricity than coal fired blast furnace/s, when the UK has high electricity costs.

There should probably be more media focus on what exactly is happening.

tc27 wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 11:23 pm I dont think its contentious to say the devolved goverments record is not an example of brilliance in transport infrastructure (but also fair to point out it got some things right as has UK wide government).

The devolved governments got Barnett consequentials from some seriously expensive projects like HS2 and Crossrail and can even issue UK backed gilts so its not due to lack of funding

Not sure that is true with transport in Wales. Though think it is for NI and Scotland.

How and why on earth was this woman selected as Tory London mayoral candidate?
Every time she opens her mouth

Chosen because of three words.

Culture. War. Idiocy.