No opposition party has a plan before their manifesto is published. The whole reason the Tories are bleating on about "no plan" is because they themselves see that Labour don't have to do anything other than watch the Tories dive in the polls due to their corruption and incompetence.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:52 pm
by I like neeps
Tichtheid wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:42 pm
No opposition party has a plan before their manifesto is published. The whole reason the Tories are bleating on about "no plan" is because they themselves see that Labour don't have to do anything other than watch the Tories dive in the polls due to their corruption and incompetence.
Just not true, if it was true no opposition has any policies or plans before the manifesto launch. Keir Starmer and co would never have mentioned any Green billion pound project for them to u-turn on in this first place.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:00 pm
by _Os_
He's never going to apologise.
Instead there's some waffle about Labour not having a plan, coming from the party whose plan is "let the market decide" and "privatise everything we possibly can". The whole reason Labour have undertaken these u-turns is because any solid thing they commit to is attacked by the Tories and their client media. Once Labour are in power they'll switch to saying Labour's modest plans which are being implemented are actually a grand evil socialist revolution.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:03 pm
by C69
Sandstorm wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:36 pm
Labour's policy to get us out of the shit is this: "Raise taxes". Everyone knows this.
However announcing it before Day 2 in Downing Street is stupid.
I doubt they will raise taxes anywhere near the amount the Tories have tbh.
I'll settle for competence ATM. Look what happened when the Tories tries to slash taxes
Some people have a very short memory.
I'll grit my teeth and vote Labour at the next GE.
It's just not credible: I'm sorry for saying my government's policy and using an attack line that's been used for years and will continue to be used. Your son's life will resume being the joke we've treated it when you're watching on TV and reading in the news rather than physically in the room with us.
Policy is more important than optics, imo. You either think trans rights are a joke, or you don't. Irrespective of who is in the room.
I'm very JKR on this issues, who I don't not consider transphobic, rather pro sex based rights. It's a subject that deserves care in language rather than cheap political barbs and point scoring. It's far from a black and white issue for me, it's nuanced. The PM was crass, lacking in judgement, respect and compassion, whatever his view are to express them in the way that he did/does is not appropriate. Doing it so soon after the conclusion to a murder driven by transphobia (according to the judge) while the mother of the victim was in attendance was particular shameful, and as leader of the country shamed us all, and proved his unworthiness as a statesman. You're defending the indefensible, and those that do so in positions of authority are only compounding his gross error of judgement.
I appreciate this thoughtful post and I'm not arguing for self ID either because as you say it's a nuanced and difficult issue.
As you say, the judge said transphobia was a motive in the murder - so is it not worse that the PM and the Tory party have been playing it up as a political wedge issue and a joke creating an environment of transphobia with their pals in the media? That hasn't been mentioned at all.
And a lot of it comes down to, it's bad because the mother was there. Because it goes against British decorum and it's bad politics whatever. And as you say it is shameful. My point is it's always shameful to make a joke about trans people if it's shameful in this case, it's shameful in every case. Otherwise you get the point where - it's good politics to make fun of trans people x number of weeks after the sentence, or it's not shameful to make a joke when someone not affected by that joke is in attendance. And then I'd argue our British values and decorum aren't virtuous at all.
Tend to agree, but when such a live incident as this happens it should give everyone pause for though, reflection, and should change behaviours not for a few weeks, but going forward. It's one thing to take a certain stance as to the extend of trans 'rights' versus sex based rights, it's another to marginalise and joke about their existence, as this can give a certain credence to those that that think it's ok to harm.
Tichtheid wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:42 pm
No opposition party has a plan before their manifesto is published. The whole reason the Tories are bleating on about "no plan" is because they themselves see that Labour don't have to do anything other than watch the Tories dive in the polls due to their corruption and incompetence.
Just not true, if it was true no opposition has any policies or plans before the manifesto launch.
Well they don't, how many times have you heard a politician say, "wait until our manifesto is published and we'll show you (whatever)"?
Until then there is series of suggestions that don't amount to anything, they are certainly not commitments of any kind. This isn't anything new.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:49 pm
by _Os_
_Os_ wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 7:14 am
Trott is lying here. Esther Ghey (the mother) did not say the murder wasn't a hate a crime, she said the opposite and that trans hate was a factor. Trott's big brained idea is that if she puts words into Esther Ghey's mouth she can pretend there was no hate crime, and therefore no apology is needed.
Trott appears to be yet another moron.
More from Trott. She was first elected in 2019, chief secretary to the treasury, which means she attends cabinet and is a senior member of Sunak's team (she doesn't get that position otherwise). Based on this week it's possible the Tories could do a May and shed support through an election campaign. So many morons and/or inexperienced people, they just don't look like they know what they're doing. Then there's the Pop Cons and about 10 other groups.
Doesn't understand debt as a % of GDP:
Her response to a list of Tory u-turns read to her is to blame Covid, but a lot of these aren't cost savings:
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 7:29 am
by _Os_
_Os_ wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 3:38 pm
How degraded is the position of PM now?
I again return to this observation from <checks notes> Monday this week.
Rees-Mogg has announced Sunak will be "filling in" for him on his GB News slot next week. A real life serving UK PM is about to become a hybrid of news reader/interviewer/talk show host, on a sordid dark money funded TV channel which peddles conspiracies and is only watched by Tory members. The purpose of its existence being to influence the Tory party in the direction of Farage.
_Os_ wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 3:38 pm
How degraded is the position of PM now?
I again return to this observation from <checks notes> Monday this week.
Rees-Mogg has announced Sunak will be "filling in" for him on his GB News slot next week. A real life serving UK PM is about to become a hybrid of news reader/interviewer/talk show host, on a sordid dark money funded TV channel which peddles conspiracies and is only watched by Tory members. The purpose of its existence being to influence the Tory party in the direction of Farage.
Leader of the opposition is supposed to show up for work. How many Wednesday PMQs will Nige skip each month?
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 8:40 am
by _Os_
What Sunakered should be focusing on is the byelections this month:
Wellingborough 15th Feb (Tory).
Kingswood 15th Feb (Tory).
Rochdale 29th Feb (Labour).
Those with long memories will remember Cameron went all out in 3 byelections at the end of 2014. Cameron's team knew a GE was coming and wanted any bad news minimised. The Tories were unlikely to win any of them (and didn't), but giving up would've been a lot worse for the Tories. The important two were the defections of Reckless and Carswell from the Tories to UKIP (they resigned their seats to force byelections and contested for another party which is rare), the Tories lost both but ensured they came second (important in an FPTP system where voters will look at who has a chance of winning in their constituency). The Tory candidates that contested in 2014 are now the MPs for those seats (won in 2015 and 2017), both are some of the safest Tory seats now. Clacton (the seat Carswell won for UKIP in 2014 and 2015) was 70%+ Tory voting seat in 2019.
Campaigning as hard as possible in a byelection is essential this close to a GE. If it's a lost cause the bad result (and bad headlines) are minimised by putting effort in. If it's a good result there's good news whilst it's in the news cycle, voters tend to take actual real elections more seriously than polls.
Decent Tory results are possible in Wellingborough and Kingswood, but Sunak himself has to lead the campaign in each which he isn't doing. Sunak's team is AWOL. Wellingborough and Kingswood have been safe-ish Tory seats since 2010. Rochdale is a Labour safe seat, but could turn out to be a bit tricky for Labour, Galloway is contesting on a pro-Palestine ticket, and the Reform candidate is the ex-Labour MP. Sunak seems to be sacrificing all of them in the hope it distances him from failure, he's relying on the Tory supporting media moving on quickly.
There's real danger for Sunak in doing this. If the Tories lose seats that's bad obviously for them. But worse is if Reform do well. If they take 10%+ or better in any of these seats, the Tory supporting media Sunak is relying on to kill the story asap, will instead talk up Reform. Tory aligned media is split at the moment, the Telegraph is basically campaigning for Sunak's removal, hard to tell if GB News is supporting Reform or the Tories, they're not yet all completely behind the Tory party led by Sunak. Reform knows this too, they're trying to win some credibility in the same way UKIP did in 2014.
Tichtheid wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:42 pm
No opposition party has a plan before their manifesto is published. The whole reason the Tories are bleating on about "no plan" is because they themselves see that Labour don't have to do anything other than watch the Tories dive in the polls due to their corruption and incompetence.
Just not true, if it was true no opposition has any policies or plans before the manifesto launch.
Well they don't, how many times have you heard a politician say, "wait until our manifesto is published and we'll show you (whatever)"?
Until then there is series of suggestions that don't amount to anything, they are certainly not commitments of any kind. This isn't anything new.
Okay, so Labour's spending pledge for green energy/green jobs/insulation etc of 28bm that was central to their "5 missions" was a suggestion, not a policy?
No, it was a policy. Let's get real here.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:36 am
by Sandstorm
_Os_ wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 8:40 am
Sunak's team is AWOL.
I think this is important. The Tories are a fractured mess and there are dozens of splinter teams all working against on another. Only another 5 months....
Just not true, if it was true no opposition has any policies or plans before the manifesto launch.
Well they don't, how many times have you heard a politician say, "wait until our manifesto is published and we'll show you (whatever)"?
Until then there is series of suggestions that don't amount to anything, they are certainly not commitments of any kind. This isn't anything new.
Okay, so Labour's spending pledge for green energy/green jobs/insulation etc of 28bm that was central to their "5 missions" was a suggestion, not a policy?
No, it was a policy. Let's get real here.
Labour have only just got 'access talks' agreed with No 10 - end of January was when they were first given access. This means they can speak to and question the civil servants directly, including those in the Treasury. I suspect this will trigger a whole range of rethinking within the Labour Party as the true nature of the shit the Tories are going to leave them with becomes clear. I also suspect this info has been one of the triggers for the revision of the Green Pledge as they see how shit the finances really are. The Labour Plans for Gov will be in their manifesto and will have to reflect what they are inheriting - a big steaming turd of an economy!
If you expect any opposition party to lay out a plan for Gov without having time via access talks to be clear about what they are inheriting and also being clear on when the General election is going to be then you are sadly deluded. The Manifesto for all parties will lay out their plans in detail and these will be produced once the election date is confirmed and the campaigns start properly - this is all just skirmishing.
However in the interim why should Labour provide the Tories with a target to aim at when they are currently putting both their feet into the shit every single day. There is plenty of time prior to a GE once the date has been set to explain your own plans to the electorate and convince them you should have their vote. In the interim the Tories will continue to sink even deeper into the shit due to a collapsing economy, rising waiting times for NHS, missing cancer targets, no NHS dentistry, handling of Post Office debacle, losing by-elections, PPE fraud scandals, etc. Most of all the squatter Suank continues to prove himself a liability and will continue to make gaffes every week and I suspect the Tories are now desperate to get rid of him, he barely commands respect let alone his party's backing. Why try and deflect from the Tories imploding? The Tories are shitting themselves and are desperate to deflect attention onto the Labour Party and are trying to goad them into telling everyone what their plans for Gov are so the Tories and their right wing media can pick holes. Starmer et al are quite rightly waiting patiently, ignoring the by now rather tedious 'he has no plan' bullshit and leaving the Tories to implode ... rather spectacularly!
Well they don't, how many times have you heard a politician say, "wait until our manifesto is published and we'll show you (whatever)"?
Until then there is series of suggestions that don't amount to anything, they are certainly not commitments of any kind. This isn't anything new.
Okay, so Labour's spending pledge for green energy/green jobs/insulation etc of 28bm that was central to their "5 missions" was a suggestion, not a policy?
No, it was a policy. Let's get real here.
Labour have only just got 'access talks' agreed with No 10 - end of January was when they were first given access. This means they can speak to and question the civil servants directly, including those in the Treasury. I suspect this will trigger a whole range of rethinking within the Labour Party as the true nature of the shit the Tories are going to leave them with becomes clear. I also suspect this info has been one of the triggers for the revision of the Green Pledge as they see how shit the finances really are. The Labour Plans for Gov will be in their manifesto and will have to reflect what they are inheriting - a big steaming turd of an economy!
If you expect any opposition party to lay out a plan for Gov without having time via access talks to be clear about what they are inheriting and also being clear on when the General election is going to be then you are sadly deluded. The Manifesto for all parties will lay out their plans in detail and these will be produced once the election date is confirmed and the campaigns start properly - this is all just skirmishing.
However in the interim why should Labour provide the Tories with a target to aim at when they are currently putting both their feet into the shit every single day. There is plenty of time prior to a GE once the date has been set to explain your own plans to the electorate and convince them you should have their vote. In the interim the Tories will continue to sink even deeper into the shit due to a collapsing economy, rising waiting times for NHS, missing cancer targets, no NHS dentistry, handling of Post Office debacle, losing by-elections, PPE fraud scandals, etc. Most of all the squatter Suank continues to prove himself a liability and will continue to make gaffes every week and I suspect the Tories are now desperate to get rid of him, he barely commands respect let alone his party's backing. Why try and deflect from the Tories imploding? The Tories are shitting themselves and are desperate to deflect attention onto the Labour Party and are trying to goad them into telling everyone what their plans for Gov are so the Tories and their right wing media can pick holes. Starmer et al are quite rightly waiting patiently, ignoring the by now rather tedious 'he has no plan' bullshit and leaving the Tories to implode ... rather spectacularly!
So why ever mention the green investment figure? Why have Labour ever mentioned one thing they'd do in government (policy)?
If you don't think Labour haven't been announcing policies, you aren't paying attention I am afraid.
Just not true, if it was true no opposition has any policies or plans before the manifesto launch.
Well they don't, how many times have you heard a politician say, "wait until our manifesto is published and we'll show you (whatever)"?
Until then there is series of suggestions that don't amount to anything, they are certainly not commitments of any kind. This isn't anything new.
Okay, so Labour's spending pledge for green energy/green jobs/insulation etc of 28bm that was central to their "5 missions" was a suggestion, not a policy?
No, it was a policy. Let's get real here.
I'm trying to be real, I'm not trying to be an apologist for Labour. The reality is that if you read through the five missions there is nothing costed in them and if they get grilled on those missions they will tell the questioner to wait until the manifesto is published.
All parties do this and have done so for as long as I can remember, that is what I see as being realistic about this, as dpedin says, why not let the Tories continue to blast away at both feet? It's completely unrealistic to expect any party to lay out detailed plans this far out from an election, it's unlikely to be May now but I guess it's possible. Autumn is more likely - if that is the case why would Labour give the Tory press eight or nine months to make shit up about their policies? They will sling dung and some of it will stick, no matter how truthful it is, or isn't.
Do you really think Starmer should look at the total clown car that is the current government and think, oh well, at least we will be able to have a reasonable debate over the coming months and the electorate will decide on the issues after being given a full run down on policies and costings, all of which will be given equal treatment by the fourth estate, because they have a role to play in our democracy and they have always upheld their part in the process up to now?
Okay, so Labour's spending pledge for green energy/green jobs/insulation etc of 28bm that was central to their "5 missions" was a suggestion, not a policy?
No, it was a policy. Let's get real here.
Labour have only just got 'access talks' agreed with No 10 - end of January was when they were first given access. This means they can speak to and question the civil servants directly, including those in the Treasury. I suspect this will trigger a whole range of rethinking within the Labour Party as the true nature of the shit the Tories are going to leave them with becomes clear. I also suspect this info has been one of the triggers for the revision of the Green Pledge as they see how shit the finances really are. The Labour Plans for Gov will be in their manifesto and will have to reflect what they are inheriting - a big steaming turd of an economy!
If you expect any opposition party to lay out a plan for Gov without having time via access talks to be clear about what they are inheriting and also being clear on when the General election is going to be then you are sadly deluded. The Manifesto for all parties will lay out their plans in detail and these will be produced once the election date is confirmed and the campaigns start properly - this is all just skirmishing.
However in the interim why should Labour provide the Tories with a target to aim at when they are currently putting both their feet into the shit every single day. There is plenty of time prior to a GE once the date has been set to explain your own plans to the electorate and convince them you should have their vote. In the interim the Tories will continue to sink even deeper into the shit due to a collapsing economy, rising waiting times for NHS, missing cancer targets, no NHS dentistry, handling of Post Office debacle, losing by-elections, PPE fraud scandals, etc. Most of all the squatter Suank continues to prove himself a liability and will continue to make gaffes every week and I suspect the Tories are now desperate to get rid of him, he barely commands respect let alone his party's backing. Why try and deflect from the Tories imploding? The Tories are shitting themselves and are desperate to deflect attention onto the Labour Party and are trying to goad them into telling everyone what their plans for Gov are so the Tories and their right wing media can pick holes. Starmer et al are quite rightly waiting patiently, ignoring the by now rather tedious 'he has no plan' bullshit and leaving the Tories to implode ... rather spectacularly!
So why ever mention the green investment figure? Why have Labour ever mentioned one thing they'd do in government (policy)?
If you don't think Labour haven't been announcing policies, you aren't paying attention I am afraid.
Moving goalposts here?
We started talking about Plans for Government - this is clear in your earlier posts - and the lack of a Labour Plan for Government is what the tories have been monotonously going on and on about. This is what I refer to in my response above. A Plan for Government is different thing to the Policies a Government or Party may espouse. Policies are statements of your overall goals or ambitions, a Plan for Government ie a manifesto, lays out the steps for getting there and how they will deliver their policies.
To put it simply for you and in terms you may understand, a Government policy could be 'Stop the Boats' and part of your detailed plan might be deportation of refugees to an legally recognised unsafe country such as Rwanda to act as a deterrent.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 1:01 pm
by tabascoboy
The Times Political Sketch from Wednesday, doesn't seem to be paywalled but here's the text with link to original. We know why now he deliberately chooses to not answer any question in PMQ directly - everything is scripted...
Trans comment will haunt Rishi Sunak for his remaining time in office With Brianna Ghey’s mother watching from the gallery, prime minister’s folder of retorts let him down when a bit of humanity was required
Tom Peck
Wednesday February 07 2024, 8.35pm, The Times
At this week’s prime minister’s questions, I happened to sit in a seat in the press gallery I’ve never sat in before. Never before have I positioned myself up behind the Speaker’s chair and over to the right, looking out directly along the tops of the heads on the government front bench.
I’ve never had such a detailed look at the inside of Rishi Sunak’s ring binder. Never before seen the barbs, the jibes, the insults all there, written out in long form, ready to go. I never knew he had a page for each question, and each questioner, marked up with a little colour photograph. In the case of the planted ones from supportive backbenchers, he even had the question itself typed out in his notes. A reminder that this is meant to be an exercise in public scrutiny.
When the expected attacks came, the replies were all right there in the notes. When he was asked by Keir Starmer about the wisdom of betting £1,000 on deporting asylum seekers to Rwanda, as he did with Piers Morgan on Monday, there in front of him was his comeback. “The only bet he’d ever make is an each way bet.” Get it?
When he was asked about having broken his pledge on cutting NHS waiting lists, he breathed in a contented little sigh, steadied himself and turned to the long paragraph of text in front of him — a hilarious list of Starmer’s U-turns.
“Pensions, planning, peerages, public sector pay,” he said, becoming slightly giddy at the alliterative joy of it all. And now a little pause for the gag. “Defining a woman — but that was only 99 per cent of a U-turn!”
The sharp intake of breath all around him didn’t seem to take him by surprise. Maybe he was wondering whether anybody actually got it — 99 per cent of people, however you define them, most definitely wouldn’t have done.
When he sat down seconds later, he didn’t even seem to realise what he’d done. He had quite clearly forgotten that, about 30 seconds earlier, Starmer had welcomed Esther Ghey, mother of the murdered trans teenager Brianna Ghey, to the public gallery. And that he, the prime minister, had just done a cruel anti-trans joke in front of her.
When Starmer pointed out his error, the prime minister’s circuits seemed to go haywire. He looked down in his folder and started pressing his fingers down upon the parts highlighted in green pen, like a toddler who thinks the TV is an iPad.
Maybe he thought if he just pressed it hard enough, some sort of answer might appear to rescue him from this hellish moment that absolutely wasn’t in the script.
But he didn’t have an answer. He just ignored it. As it happens, Esther Ghey was not actually there. She arrived in the chamber 15 minutes later, and didn’t seem to even be aware of what had just occurred. When backbench Labour MPs spent the next quarter of an hour roaring at the prime minister to apologise — which was itself only marginally less undignified than the original error — it didn’t seem to be clear to her what it was that the prime minister was supposed to be apologising for.
Of course, whether Brianna Ghey’s mother was or wasn’t in the room where it happened doesn’t matter in the slightest. It would be hard to contrive a more perfect demonstration for precisely why a prime minister’s words matter so much. Everyone is in the room where they are uttered. They are always heard. Which is why even passable leaders tend to know better than to lower themselves to this kind of thing.
Sunak declined the many opportunities to apologise, but by the very end he had decided it would be wise to at least acknowledge Esther Ghey’s presence. He praised her, specifically, for “her compassion and her empathy”, two noble qualities which he had just accidentally demonstrated a complete lack of himself. As it happens, this didn’t really matter either. She wasn’t even listening to the prime minister, but was instead turned to her left and was in conversation with her local MP, Charlotte Nichols.
However many days Sunak has left in No 10, he has made two terrible mistakes this week that will haunt him for all of them.
_Os_ wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 8:40 am
Sunak's team is AWOL.
I think this is important. The Tories are a fractured mess and there are dozens of splinter teams all working against on another. Only another 5 months....
I reckon it'll be October, 8 months away. Main reasons are he wants to get Rwanda over the line because he thinks it'll be a huge win for him, and he wants an Indian trade deal. Depending how much he wants those two he may go later than October.
The Tories are going to be absolutely done by then if Sunak keeps this up. The biggest problem is his party has already accepted the loss and is positioning for the internal fight afterwards, what we're seeing usually happens after a party loses a GE and is out of the spotlight. It's a brawl not a government. Doing this whilst in government is going to make a worst case outcome for the Tories more likely.
If they cared about the UK they would've called a GE years back, but they had a majority and years on the clock so did what was best for the party. Ironically, not having a GE immediately after axing Big Dog could end up massively costing the party.
Delaying further is serving no purpose, the longer the wait the worse for the Tories (which I think is excellent, not sure why Sunak does). At the end of last year it was revealed Sunak deprioritised trade negotiations with Canada and Mexico, so all focus could go elsewhere, with India being the only big trade deal which could be rushed. Doubt there's many people who actually believe Sunak wants an Indian trade deal because he believes red or blue wallers will be mightily impressed.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 1:46 pm
by _Os_
dpedin wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:51 am
Why try and deflect from the Tories imploding? The Tories are shitting themselves and are desperate to deflect attention onto the Labour Party and are trying to goad them into telling everyone what their plans for Gov are so the Tories and their right wing media can pick holes. Starmer et al are quite rightly waiting patiently, ignoring the by now rather tedious 'he has no plan' bullshit and leaving the Tories to implode ... rather spectacularly!
The zeitgeist is moving on. Over 50 Tory MPs are stepping down at the GE, other Tories are digging in for the fight afterwards already, they have all accepted defeat beforehand. Power is flowing away from them. A lot of the debate is shifting to focus on Labour, because that's where the power is flowing towards.
If Labour want to keep waiting it out they're going to have to keep finding ways to remind people that Sunak doesn't behave like a PM, but that is his position. And the Tories don't act like a government but that's what they are.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 2:02 pm
by Hal Jordan
The India deal is 100% why Sunak is clinging on, as he will no doubt ensure his friends, family and political allies do very well out if it indeed.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 2:20 pm
by petej
Hal Jordan wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 2:02 pm
The India deal is 100% why Sunak is clinging on, as he will no doubt ensure his friends, family and political allies do very well out if it indeed.
Any India trade deal will be on bad terms for us so he is utterly delusional if he thinks it will benefit the Tories in anyway.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 2:32 pm
by sockwithaticket
The general milking of the public purse on behalf of mates and donors stops as soon as they step out of power. If Labour come in and make some improvements to the Home Office, Serco probably make less from their migrant hotels. No more new oil and gas licenses if Rishi's not in number 10 and the civil service may be permitted to bat away some of the blood-sucking consultancies that manage to become attached to far too many projects.
It's not just the big stuff they're clinging on for, a lot of people are making a lot of money from the every day too.
Hal Jordan wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 2:02 pm
The India deal is 100% why Sunak is clinging on, as he will no doubt ensure his friends, family and political allies do very well out if it indeed.
Any India trade deal will be on bad terms for us so he is utterly delusional if he thinks it will benefit the Tories in anyway.
I'm sure plenty of Tories will have positioned themselves to financially benefit from it even if there's political blowback. Most of them are resigned to beig consigned to opposition for a while anyway, they'll mostly be on the make now.
Hal Jordan wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 2:02 pm
The India deal is 100% why Sunak is clinging on, as he will no doubt ensure his friends, family and political allies do very well out if it indeed.
Any India trade deal will be on bad terms for us so he is utterly delusional if he thinks it will benefit the Tories in anyway.
I suspect both myself and Hal are suspicious there's some personal self interest at play, that Sunak may not be much of a party man committed to public service (shocking I know).
We'll know in a few weeks if he's going for a May GE or not. If not it'll be autumn/winter. Fuck knows what'll be left of them after more than half a year of this, 59 are stepping down and that's before the nailed on losers decide they would rather do a runner than face the count. Here's the current list: https://conservativehome.com/2024/02/06 ... -announce/
Labour have only just got 'access talks' agreed with No 10 - end of January was when they were first given access. This means they can speak to and question the civil servants directly, including those in the Treasury. I suspect this will trigger a whole range of rethinking within the Labour Party as the true nature of the shit the Tories are going to leave them with becomes clear. I also suspect this info has been one of the triggers for the revision of the Green Pledge as they see how shit the finances really are. The Labour Plans for Gov will be in their manifesto and will have to reflect what they are inheriting - a big steaming turd of an economy!
If you expect any opposition party to lay out a plan for Gov without having time via access talks to be clear about what they are inheriting and also being clear on when the General election is going to be then you are sadly deluded. The Manifesto for all parties will lay out their plans in detail and these will be produced once the election date is confirmed and the campaigns start properly - this is all just skirmishing.
However in the interim why should Labour provide the Tories with a target to aim at when they are currently putting both their feet into the shit every single day. There is plenty of time prior to a GE once the date has been set to explain your own plans to the electorate and convince them you should have their vote. In the interim the Tories will continue to sink even deeper into the shit due to a collapsing economy, rising waiting times for NHS, missing cancer targets, no NHS dentistry, handling of Post Office debacle, losing by-elections, PPE fraud scandals, etc. Most of all the squatter Suank continues to prove himself a liability and will continue to make gaffes every week and I suspect the Tories are now desperate to get rid of him, he barely commands respect let alone his party's backing. Why try and deflect from the Tories imploding? The Tories are shitting themselves and are desperate to deflect attention onto the Labour Party and are trying to goad them into telling everyone what their plans for Gov are so the Tories and their right wing media can pick holes. Starmer et al are quite rightly waiting patiently, ignoring the by now rather tedious 'he has no plan' bullshit and leaving the Tories to implode ... rather spectacularly!
So why ever mention the green investment figure? Why have Labour ever mentioned one thing they'd do in government (policy)?
If you don't think Labour haven't been announcing policies, you aren't paying attention I am afraid.
Moving goalposts here?
We started talking about Plans for Government - this is clear in your earlier posts - and the lack of a Labour Plan for Government is what the tories have been monotonously going on and on about. This is what I refer to in my response above. A Plan for Government is different thing to the Policies a Government or Party may espouse. Policies are statements of your overall goals or ambitions, a Plan for Government ie a manifesto, lays out the steps for getting there and how they will deliver their policies.
To put it simply for you and in terms you may understand, a Government policy could be 'Stop the Boats' and part of your detailed plan might be deportation of refugees to an legally recognised unsafe country such as Rwanda to act as a deterrent.
Plan for Government = policies you want to enact to achieve said plan.
Let me give you an example.
Labours plan is for energy security, and creation of jobs in the green energy sector. You can go to their website where it's a "mission for government". How to achieve that mission? Policies! Step forward Keir Starmer "we're going to invest 28bn in green energy in parliament".
So there you have it: plan, policy, U-turn.
Now there's a plan, and a drastically different policy in yeah 4bn should do.
Goalposts aren't moving here. Labour have no plans because the policies they say they have to enact those plans they decide to u-turn on.
So why ever mention the green investment figure? Why have Labour ever mentioned one thing they'd do in government (policy)?
If you don't think Labour haven't been announcing policies, you aren't paying attention I am afraid.
Moving goalposts here?
We started talking about Plans for Government - this is clear in your earlier posts - and the lack of a Labour Plan for Government is what the tories have been monotonously going on and on about. This is what I refer to in my response above. A Plan for Government is different thing to the Policies a Government or Party may espouse. Policies are statements of your overall goals or ambitions, a Plan for Government ie a manifesto, lays out the steps for getting there and how they will deliver their policies.
To put it simply for you and in terms you may understand, a Government policy could be 'Stop the Boats' and part of your detailed plan might be deportation of refugees to an legally recognised unsafe country such as Rwanda to act as a deterrent.
Plan for Government = policies you want to enact to achieve said plan.
Let me give you an example.
Labours plan is for energy security, and creation of jobs in the green energy sector. You can go to their website where it's a "mission for government". How to achieve that mission? Policies! Step forward Keir Starmer "we're going to invest 28bn in green energy in parliament".
So there you have it: plan, policy, U-turn.
Now there's a plan, and a drastically different policy in yeah 4bn should do.
Goalposts aren't moving here. Labour have no plans because the policies they say they have to enact those plans they decide to u-turn on.
Sensible u-turn given what the useless squabbling idiots have done to the economy. Should imagine their "plan" will become quite clear when Sunak has the balls to call an election. In the meantime the current Tory plan is slowly flushing as all (apart from their cronies and donors) down the shitter.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 6:46 pm
by C69
Appraising your policies based upon the reality of a change in economic fortunes of a country is not a U turn.
Its showing due diligence and the right thing to do.
If the Tories hadn't trashed the Country and it's economy then they may have some cedibility in criticising Labour tbh.
Btw I think Starmer is a flip flopping vacuous twat
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:09 am
by tabascoboy
We’ve given up the fight, say top Tories as byelection defeats loom Senior Conservative says party has descended into ‘death spiral’ as poll losses set to fuel fresh attacks on Sunak’s leadership
Conservative MPs on Saturday night predicted fresh attacks on Rishi Sunak’s leadership within days, as they accused their own party of surrendering to Labour without a proper fight in two formerly safe Tory seats where byelections will be held this week.
Well they don't, how many times have you heard a politician say, "wait until our manifesto is published and we'll show you (whatever)"?
Until then there is series of suggestions that don't amount to anything, they are certainly not commitments of any kind. This isn't anything new.
Okay, so Labour's spending pledge for green energy/green jobs/insulation etc of 28bm that was central to their "5 missions" was a suggestion, not a policy?
No, it was a policy. Let's get real here.
Labour have only just got 'access talks' agreed with No 10 - end of January was when they were first given access. This means they can speak to and question the civil servants directly, including those in the Treasury. I suspect this will trigger a whole range of rethinking within the Labour Party as the true nature of the shit the Tories are going to leave them with becomes clear. I also suspect this info has been one of the triggers for the revision of the Green Pledge as they see how shit the finances really are. The Labour Plans for Gov will be in their manifesto and will have to reflect what they are inheriting - a big steaming turd of an economy!
If you expect any opposition party to lay out a plan for Gov without having time via access talks to be clear about what they are inheriting and also being clear on when the General election is going to be then you are sadly deluded. The Manifesto for all parties will lay out their plans in detail and these will be produced once the election date is confirmed and the campaigns start properly - this is all just skirmishing.
However in the interim why should Labour provide the Tories with a target to aim at when they are currently putting both their feet into the shit every single day. There is plenty of time prior to a GE once the date has been set to explain your own plans to the electorate and convince them you should have their vote. In the interim the Tories will continue to sink even deeper into the shit due to a collapsing economy, rising waiting times for NHS, missing cancer targets, no NHS dentistry, handling of Post Office debacle, losing by-elections, PPE fraud scandals, etc. Most of all the squatter Suank continues to prove himself a liability and will continue to make gaffes every week and I suspect the Tories are now desperate to get rid of him, he barely commands respect let alone his party's backing. Why try and deflect from the Tories imploding? The Tories are shitting themselves and are desperate to deflect attention onto the Labour Party and are trying to goad them into telling everyone what their plans for Gov are so the Tories and their right wing media can pick holes. Starmer et al are quite rightly waiting patiently, ignoring the by now rather tedious 'he has no plan' bullshit and leaving the Tories to implode ... rather spectacularly!
The no plan manta is already stale and failing and just making them look stupid.
Okay, so Labour's spending pledge for green energy/green jobs/insulation etc of 28bm that was central to their "5 missions" was a suggestion, not a policy?
No, it was a policy. Let's get real here.
Labour have only just got 'access talks' agreed with No 10 - end of January was when they were first given access. This means they can speak to and question the civil servants directly, including those in the Treasury. I suspect this will trigger a whole range of rethinking within the Labour Party as the true nature of the shit the Tories are going to leave them with becomes clear. I also suspect this info has been one of the triggers for the revision of the Green Pledge as they see how shit the finances really are. The Labour Plans for Gov will be in their manifesto and will have to reflect what they are inheriting - a big steaming turd of an economy!
If you expect any opposition party to lay out a plan for Gov without having time via access talks to be clear about what they are inheriting and also being clear on when the General election is going to be then you are sadly deluded. The Manifesto for all parties will lay out their plans in detail and these will be produced once the election date is confirmed and the campaigns start properly - this is all just skirmishing.
However in the interim why should Labour provide the Tories with a target to aim at when they are currently putting both their feet into the shit every single day. There is plenty of time prior to a GE once the date has been set to explain your own plans to the electorate and convince them you should have their vote. In the interim the Tories will continue to sink even deeper into the shit due to a collapsing economy, rising waiting times for NHS, missing cancer targets, no NHS dentistry, handling of Post Office debacle, losing by-elections, PPE fraud scandals, etc. Most of all the squatter Suank continues to prove himself a liability and will continue to make gaffes every week and I suspect the Tories are now desperate to get rid of him, he barely commands respect let alone his party's backing. Why try and deflect from the Tories imploding? The Tories are shitting themselves and are desperate to deflect attention onto the Labour Party and are trying to goad them into telling everyone what their plans for Gov are so the Tories and their right wing media can pick holes. Starmer et al are quite rightly waiting patiently, ignoring the by now rather tedious 'he has no plan' bullshit and leaving the Tories to implode ... rather spectacularly!
The no plan manta is already stale and failing and just making them look stupid.
There must have been a focus group where the phrase resonated for them to keep flogging it to death.
It just sounds pathetic now. Like an awful lot they spout
We’ve given up the fight, say top Tories as byelection defeats loom Senior Conservative says party has descended into ‘death spiral’ as poll losses set to fuel fresh attacks on Sunak’s leadership
Conservative MPs on Saturday night predicted fresh attacks on Rishi Sunak’s leadership within days, as they accused their own party of surrendering to Labour without a proper fight in two formerly safe Tory seats where byelections will be held this week.
Damning. Going MIA to this extent can only come direct from Sunak.
I've been told (friend of a friend who is a party activist) that the only Tory activists they bump into in Kingswood are from Wales. If you're drafting in Welsh Tories to contest a seat in Southern England, you've got massive issues. Maybe the Welsh Tories are more hungry because they're in opposition there? If they're used for canvasing it will harm them the moment an English person hears the accent "not from around here are you?". If they're struggling to get their activists out, the hole they're in is even larger than what's being reported.
The Telegraph had an interesting article on a Wellingborough focus group. I posted when they were looking to replace Big Dog, that Sunak being near enough a billionaire would become an issue and should preclude him from winning. The trans joke also isn't going well, not convinced a nasty culture war is going to work in the UK politeness is a core of the culture (hypocritical at times as Neeps pointed out, but still there). If the bulk of the electorate view Sunak as being unfit to be PM much as they viewed Corbyn as lacking key qualities, then ... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... -election/
Participants in the focus group, organised by the More in Common think tank, described the Prime Minister as “financially on another planet” and accused him of “abandoning hard-working people”.
‘How can Rishi understand?’
Millie, a support worker for abuse victims, said: “It’s tough out there and Sunak is a multi-millionaire. How can he ever understand when it’s ‘heat or eat’, and in some cases neither?”
Shola, a taxi driver who criticised Mr Sunak over the use of taxpayer-funded hotels to house Channel migrant arrivals, added: “Personally I think he’s a showman, he is a showbusiness man. He has nothing, we didn’t even vote for him.”
All seven participants reacted negatively to a transgender jibe made by Mr Sunak on Wednesday as the mother of Brianna Ghey, a murdered trans teenager, attended Prime Minister’s Questions.
Claire, an admin assistant, said the joke “absolutely turned my stomach”, while Millie added: “It’s just so insensitive. It’s about trying to score points but not knowing your audience. He just doesn’t get it.”
Channel 4 found no evidence of any Tory campaign happening in Wellingborough. Not from the national party/candidate/local members/non-local activists. Total silence. Even a former Tory councillor they found says the Tories are unsupportable.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:30 pm
by Sandstorm
“Not from around here, are you”
Our new Lib Dem council leader is from Mumbai. Been here just 8 years. A lot of Tory voters are going to be disappointed.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:20 am
by C69
So Labour's Rochdale candidate has fallen for conspiracy theory bollocks apparently.
This is an existential issue for Labour within Muslim communities.
Conversely this numpties comments will have a lot of support locally and probably gain votes in a community that strongly supports Gaza.
Hal Jordan wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 2:02 pm
The India deal is 100% why Sunak is clinging on, as he will no doubt ensure his friends, family and political allies do very well out if it indeed.
Any India trade deal will be on bad terms for us so he is utterly delusional if he thinks it will benefit the Tories in anyway.
I suspect both myself and Hal are suspicious there's some personal self interest at play, that Sunak may not be much of a party man committed to public service (shocking I know).
We'll know in a few weeks if he's going for a May GE or not. If not it'll be autumn/winter. Fuck knows what'll be left of them after more than half a year of this, 59 are stepping down and that's before the nailed on losers decide they would rather do a runner than face the count. Here's the current list: https://conservativehome.com/2024/02/06 ... -announce/
Well, they have officially cancelled/postponed the Africa Investment Summit which was due in London in April/May. I know they were hanging on for word from No. 10. So either they won't give them a date so they have had to cancel, or the date is May
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:37 am
by C69
So the election will have a backdrop of public sector pay strikes.
The echos of the 1992 elections are clear with the "no plan" mantra being heavily played there as well.
Labour just need to do a Cameron and say nothing and don't let the idiots like the Rochdale candidate open their mouths
Let the Tories just tear themselves apart, when Farage tries to woo Tory voters on the immigration front there will be terror in the hearts of the red wall Tory MPs.
It's going to be nasty and personal.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:41 am
by Paddington Bear
An autumn election would lump it in with the Americans. I don’t think Sunak wants a campaign spent explaining why his backbenchers want Trump to win.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:10 pm
by C69
Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:41 am
An autumn election would lump it in with the Americans. I don’t think Sunak wants a campaign spent explaining why his backbenchers want Trump to win.
Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:41 am
An autumn election would lump it in with the Americans. I don’t think Sunak wants a campaign spent explaining why his backbenchers want Trump to win.
So when then?
April/May. Straight after the budget. Things aren’t going to get better for them so may as well just take the plunge
Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:41 am
An autumn election would lump it in with the Americans. I don’t think Sunak wants a campaign spent explaining why his backbenchers want Trump to win.
So when then?
April/May. Straight after the budget. Things aren’t going to get better for them so may as well just take the plunge
Makes the most sense.
Whatever trinkets they pretend to give in the budget will be fresh, & the electorate won't have had a chance to see the reality; it'll only be ~500k who've had the shock of new mortgage rates, & the new shortages from the latest soft trade barriers won't have kicked in yet, & it's probably the best time of year for the NHS.
Re: Stop voting for fucking Tories
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:53 pm
by Rhubarb & Custard
C69 wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:37 am
So the election will have a backdrop of public sector pay strikes.
The echos of the 1992 elections are clear with the "no plan" mantra being heavily played there as well.
Labour just need to do a Cameron and say nothing and don't let the idiots like the Rochdale candidate open their mouths
Let the Tories just tear themselves apart, when Farage tries to woo Tory voters on the immigration front there will be terror in the hearts of the red wall Tory MPs.
It's going to be nasty and personal.
The very odd part of the Tory claim that Labour have no plan is you could simply look around and ask the Tories, this is all part of your actual plan then?
April/May. Straight after the budget. Things aren’t going to get better for them so may as well just take the plunge
Makes the most sense.
Whatever trinkets they pretend to give in the budget will be fresh, & the electorate won't have had a chance to see the reality; it'll only be ~500k who've had the shock of new mortgage rates, & the new shortages from the latest soft trade barriers won't have kicked in yet, & it's probably the best time of year for the NHS.
The want to go into the election when they are indispute withthe Nurses.
Tbh the caveat is they will delay the PRB findings.
Public sector pay drift is going to be a real issue for years to come.
