NPR

Lobby wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:00 am And one has apologised for his tweets and admitted he was stupid, while the other has reportedly continued “to espouse the ISIL ideology and to try to justify its atrocities”.

So if she'd just apologise, it'll be ok?

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:59 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:51 am It's not hypocritical to differentiate between saying something stupid on social media and joining a terrorist organisation. I'm staggered this needs to be said.

If only Ollie had been groomed into being a racist we could vilify him properly

Both sets of actions have consequences,

but some want to argue that one stupid teenager should be given a full pass, while thinking a groomed 15 year old should be vilified and punished for the rest of her days, in the extreme, by removing her Nationality and denying her a fair trial.

The equivalent to Begum is if Robinson had joined a far right terror organisation and committed some sort of race related crime. He hasn't, he said stupid stuff on twitter. The consequences are necessarily different.

To be clear, if a British Muslim sportsman is 'outed' in future as having tweeted something pro-ISIS as a teenager I would consider an apology and a demonstration that their views have changed sufficient as well.

To be clear, I don't think she should be given a free pass. I think she should be prosecuted for her crimes and given a fair trial here as a British citizen.

I also don't think that this should cost Ollie a test career. I've stated that already. There should be a process to redemption, but not a free pass.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:59 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:51 am It's not hypocritical to differentiate between saying something stupid on social media and joining a terrorist organisation. I'm staggered this needs to be said.

If only Ollie had been groomed into being a racist we could vilify him properly

Both sets of actions have consequences,

but some want to argue that one stupid teenager should be given a full pass, while thinking a groomed 15 year old should be vilified and punished for the rest of her days, in the extreme, by removing her Nationality and denying her a fair trial.

To be fair, there is a bit of difference from joining a jihad for ISIS and making snide comments on twitter.

I'm quite prepared to believe that he's a thoughtless pratt, but I can't see that it makes him a terrorist.

I am being fair, I'm applying "teenagers make stupid choices" to both as mitigating circumstances, while not using either to vilify or excuse their actions either way.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:14 am

Big D wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:16 pm Apparently they've found another tweet by a current player that was made when they were 15.

Not sure how they'll play that one. 15 is still a kid.

<coughShamimaBegumcough>

"Just saying"

She isn't relevant to how the ECB will or can play this one in cricketing terms 15 is a kid, wouldn't have been professional and may not have been playing national representative cricket.

If he wasn't employed by or subject to ECB codes of conduct then they have no grounds to punish the player.

We also don't know the content of the tweet.

Big D wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:32 am We also don't know the content of the tweet(s)

Kiwias wrote: ↑Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:33 am Pretty stupid stuff.

The poor sod only got 1 like out them too

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:59 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:51 am It's not hypocritical to differentiate between saying something stupid on social media and joining a terrorist organisation. I'm staggered this needs to be said.

If only Ollie had been groomed into being a racist we could vilify him properly

Both sets of actions have consequences,

but some want to argue that one stupid teenager should be given a full pass, while thinking a groomed 15 year old should be vilified and punished for the rest of her days, in the extreme, by removing her Nationality and denying her a fair trial.

I honestly thought I’d only see this argument on Twitter. But here we are.

Well done Hal Jordan, well done! Bet you weren’t expecting an actual bite

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:46 am

Big D wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:32 am We also don't know the content of the tweet(s)

Kiwias wrote: ↑Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:33 am Pretty stupid stuff.

The poor sod only got 1 like out them too

Robinosn made the racist tweets when he was 18/19. I was referring to the latest player who apparently has tweeted something when he was 15.

Big D wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:16 pm Robinosn made the racist tweets when he was 18/19. I was referring to the latest player who apparently has tweeted something when he was 15.

Ah... my bad. Only 15, even more stupider than 19... that should count for something.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:21 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:16 pm Robinosn made the racist tweets when he was 18/19. I was referring to the latest player who apparently has tweeted something when he was 15.

Ah... my bad. Only 15, even more stupider than 19... that should count for something.

It doesn't make it more or less right or wrong. I don't think any of my posts have passed any judgement. I only made reference to his age because he would have been a kid and likely outwith the ECB sphere of influence. Robinson it seems was employed professionally at the time of his tweets.

I am not sure the ECB can punish an employee for something they did (tweet content TBC) when they weren't employed by them or potentially not bound by their codes of conduct at that time. They can drop him but they can't suspend him or dock wages etc.

A 15 year can't be trusted to drink, vote or drive, a 19 year old can, so teenage levels of stupid must be gauged on a sliding scale?

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:09 pm A 15 year can't be trusted to drink, vote or drive, a 19 year old can, so teenage levels of stupid must be gauged on a sliding scale?

In the same way that there's a sliding scale from 'stupid tweet' to 'complicity in genocide of the Yazidis'.

Jesus fuck this Begum thing is so stupid. Yes, you can think that Begum holds some responsibility for her actions and still recognise that she's been treated in a way that is not commensurate with her age at the time, as well as hold serious concerns over the whole nationality angle. It's got fucking nothing to do with Ollie Robinson's tweets as a teenager - it's just a dumb attempt at a gotcha and it's such a reach I'm surprised people aren't tearing ligaments talking about it.

All this does is make the majority of people who aren't trying to tie these things together roll their eyes and dismiss the entire argument.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:30 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:09 pm A 15 year can't be trusted to drink, vote or drive, a 19 year old can, so teenage levels of stupid must be gauged on a sliding scale?

In the same way that there's a sliding scale from 'stupid tweet' to 'complicity in genocide of the Yazidis'.

Yeah, OK. A vulnerable, groomed, 15 year old shouldn't allowed any mitigation because of age. In fact we should be single out, go full OTT, treated differently and as harshly as possible instead

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:09 pm A 15 year can't be trusted to drink, vote or drive, a 19 year old can, so teenage levels of stupid must be gauged on a sliding scale?

At 15 you are months away from doing most of those things (only drinking is 18+ in Scotland even if it is the national sport for our youths).

I think it entirely depends on the offence committed. Not all 19 year olds are mature and there are some mature 15 year olds.

There has to be some grey in there. I have seen a range of views from "let him play" to wanting him banned for life (I think that was Michael Carberry). I haven't seen any complaints about Craig Overton coming back in and he was playing a professional match when he said something racist and got banned for 2 matches. I would think a 1 or 2 game ban and some sort of ECB equivalent of community service should be sufficient here. But I am a mid 30's white man so admit my thoughts on punishment isn't from a place of having experienced racism.

Where it is complicated for the ECB is if these tweets were at a time where Robinson was between counties as they can't pull him up against their rules if he wasn't involved with them, same if the 15 year old wasn't part of the ECB system. We don't even know what the 15 year olds tweet was other than it contained a "racist term".

That, amongst other areas, is where this is very different to the Shamima Begum was always within the remit of UK Laws, even if I am not keen on how she has been treated in terms of the law. If Robinson and the 15 year old that has met the CPS threshold for seeking prosecution then that is more of an equivalence.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:53 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:30 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:09 pm A 15 year can't be trusted to drink, vote or drive, a 19 year old can, so teenage levels of stupid must be gauged on a sliding scale?

In the same way that there's a sliding scale from 'stupid tweet' to 'complicity in genocide of the Yazidis'.

Yeah, OK. A vulnerable, groomed, 15 year old shouldn't allowed any mitigation because of age. In fact we should be single out, go full OTT, treated differently and as harshly as possible instead

You know that's not what I said - I called you out for suggesting that the two cases are similar - they are clearly not

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:21 pm You know that's not what I said - I called you out for suggesting that the two cases are similar - they are clearly not

You got that from...

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:09 pm A 15 year can't be trusted to drink, vote or drive, a 19 year old can, so teenage levels of stupid must be gauged on a sliding scale?

The cases are not similar, the treatment of each, when considering age as a mitigating factor are also clearly vastly different.

But I am a mid 30's white man so admit my thoughts on punishment isn't from a place of having experienced racism.

Have to say Mark Ramprakash got me thinking about this

"I've heard people express sort of sympathy with Ollie Robinson, and say 'hasn't he shown a lot of character?', but I haven't heard enough about the victims or the people that these tweets are aimed at," said Ramprakash.

"How do they feel? Where is the sympathy for those people? They are UK citizens, a lot of them.

"We live in a diverse society and we really don't want this behaviour."

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:21 pm

But I am a mid 30's white man so admit my thoughts on punishment isn't from a place of having experienced racism.

Have to say Mark Ramprakash got me thinking about this

"I've heard people express sort of sympathy with Ollie Robinson, and say 'hasn't he shown a lot of character?', but I haven't heard enough about the victims or the people that these tweets are aimed at," said Ramprakash.

"How do they feel? Where is the sympathy for those people? They are UK citizens, a lot of them.

"We live in a diverse society and we really don't want this behaviour."

Those tweets are aimed at his mates, because edgy jokes by teenagers aren't intended to cause offence but are essentially in-jokes among a "trusted" group of people who are expected to react with a sort of laughing "for fucks sake".

See also PR's famous sideways growler obsession.

If anyone believes that real harm came from the handful of people (sorry, 'victims') who read teenage Ollie Robinson's stupid and obviously edgelord tweets, then sure, there's a discussion to be had here. But it's taken as read that it was a shitty thing to do, no-one is denying that. Thing is, it's more a reflection on what teenagers are like, what the culture he was in is like, and what he was like as a youngster than any commentary on who he is now and the culture he's now in.

Would be wonderful if it actually was such an aberration as to require a witch-hunt. But as it is, society is probably best served by Robinson owning those tweets and being honest with people about why he made them and why he's changed, rather than acting like he's dealt a devestating blow to race relations in the UK.

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:21 pm

But I am a mid 30's white man so admit my thoughts on punishment isn't from a place of having experienced racism.

Have to say Mark Ramprakash got me thinking about this

"I've heard people express sort of sympathy with Ollie Robinson, and say 'hasn't he shown a lot of character?', but I haven't heard enough about the victims or the people that these tweets are aimed at," said Ramprakash.

"How do they feel? Where is the sympathy for those people? They are UK citizens, a lot of them.

"We live in a diverse society and we really don't want this behaviour."

I think in this instance part of the lack of talk about victims is there is no direct victim as such, they were sweeping generalisations and poor attempts at humour (if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt) or a sign of his deeper racist feelings (if you don't) about the whole wider group.

Big D wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:38 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:21 pm

But I am a mid 30's white man so admit my thoughts on punishment isn't from a place of having experienced racism.

Have to say Mark Ramprakash got me thinking about this

"I've heard people express sort of sympathy with Ollie Robinson, and say 'hasn't he shown a lot of character?', but I haven't heard enough about the victims or the people that these tweets are aimed at," said Ramprakash.

"How do they feel? Where is the sympathy for those people? They are UK citizens, a lot of them.

"We live in a diverse society and we really don't want this behaviour."

I think in this instance part of the lack of talk about victims is there is no direct victim as such, they were sweeping generalisations and poor attempts at humour (if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt) or a sign of his deeper racist feelings (if you don't) about the whole wider group.

I guess if your an Asian kid at school getting bomb jokes all day, or a bloke at work getting the same then things like that do have a small but incremental effect that makes your life that bit harder.

Trouble is you then get people pretending to be offended, being offended on other people’s behalf and then the kick back from people questioning why they are offended on social media and suddenly you are the butt of it all again

I don't think anyone is saying that kids hearing those jokes aren't going to be affected by it. But the reach of Ollie Robinson's twitter feed as a teenager seems to be even less than in a classroom. Chances of anyone who'd actually be impacted by the tweets having read the tweets at the time are pretty minimal.

It was hardly a huge audience, of the 4 tweets, 1 like.

which leads to that problem with these social media platforms. Where is the dislike button?

Maybe, just maybe, a few of his followers/friends disliking the tweets might've result in their deletion and change in the behaviour sooner?

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:35 pm I don't think anyone is saying that kids hearing those jokes aren't going to be affected by it. But the reach of Ollie Robinson's twitter feed as a teenager seems to be even less than in a classroom. Chances of anyone who'd actually be impacted by the tweets having read the tweets at the time are pretty minimal.

Well that has changed now and the whole cycle has started.

Would be good to know the motivation of the person that posted them

While you guys were all getting bored to death by the Lord's snorefest, the Netherlands and Ireland played out a nice ODI series on a bowler-friendly wicket in the Super League WCQ thingie. Ended 2-1 to the Dutch.

Loved watching the games, nothing beats an ODI where the bowlers are on top.

Looking forward to the England and Pakistan visits next year - hopefully with full crowds!

Shemina was wholly unrepentant when challenged. It’s nothing like this situation.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:14 pm Shemina was wholly unrepentant when challenged. It’s nothing like this situation.

So if she'd just apologise, all's forgiven? yeah right.... She was groomed and brainwashed as a child, but that apparently counts for nothing.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:31 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:14 pm Shemina was wholly unrepentant when challenged. It’s nothing like this situation.

So if she'd just apologise, all's forgiven? yeah right.... She was groomed and brainwashed as a child, but that apparently counts for nothing.

Yeah, that’s exactly what I said.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:31 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:14 pm Shemina was wholly unrepentant when challenged. It’s nothing like this situation.

So if she'd just apologise, all's forgiven? yeah right.... She was groomed and brainwashed as a child, but that apparently counts for nothing.

Maybe Ollie was too...

I’d have to agree, I don’t fancy her chances for a call up by the selectors for Thursday.

Ymx wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:23 am I’d have to agree, I don’t fancy her chances for a call up by the selectors for Thursday.

No pitch assistance for the leggy?

In her defence the ISIL women's sports funding was a bit thin and Syrian pitches are a bit of a land mine to bat on.

"minefield" was right there!

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:09 am "minefield" was right there!

same difference, right?

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:14 pm Shemina was wholly unrepentant when challenged. It’s nothing like this situation.

She was honest. What do you want her to do? Turn on the fake tears? Your attitude just incentivises people to say what they think people want to hear.

The treatment of Begum was shocking. She was a child who had been influenced by her father when she left. And they just passed the buck, leaving her child to die. Countries should take responsibility for their citizens, even if they are bad eggs. If these de-radicalisation programmes are worth a damn she could have been a poster girl for them.

West Indies vs Proteas starting tomorrow. Feel like ages since we played tests against them. Just glad that we can be back on the pitch.

Kane Williamson out of the 2nd Test with an elbow injury, leaving him with a series average of 7 and a career average of 26.10 against England in England. Kane Williamson? LAME TRIVIALSON THE FRAUDSTER more like.

(They're keeping him safe for the WTC final)

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:04 pm Kane Williamson out of the 2nd Test with an elbow injury, leaving him with a series average of 7 and a career average of 26.10 against England in England. Kane Williamson? LAME TRIVIALSON THE FRAUDSTER more like.

(They're keeping him safe for the WTC final)

Not ideal. He could do with a decent knock ahead of the final. Not sure who Ross Taylor will run out instead. I’m sure he’ll find a way.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:04 pm Kane Williamson out of the 2nd Test with an elbow injury, leaving him with a series average of 7 and a career average of 26.10 against England in England. Kane Williamson? LAME TRIVIALSON THE FRAUDSTER more like.

(They're keeping him safe for the WTC final)

Ladies and gentlemen, conclusive proof that JMK has been indoctrinated by Indian cricket fans via social media.