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It being difficult doesn't mean we don't deserve criticism for cynically using an eligibility loophole to be a good part of our production line at a key position.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 10:38 pm
We have been importing props, but it's the most difficult position to develop. France are still playing 34 year old Atonio, an import, despite having 14 professional clubs at the top level and 16 in Pro D2 - that's a pool of probably around 150 tighthead props at least, five per team, and still their best is Atonio.
England are still playing Old King Cole at 37 years of age, despite their professional set up. Malherbe and Koch are mid thirties, despite the ridiculously strong South African school system that leads to hunners of players going overseas to find a playing contract.
Glasgow and Edinburgh have to win. The Super 6 was supposed to help them develop talent at home and that has been binned. The only way forward now is to up the A game system and not pick anyone from outside of the Scottish system - do we have 8 props to cover Glasgow and Edinburgh A games that aren't in the senior squads? I don't think so, but we have to start somewhere.
I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:47 amIt being difficult doesn't mean we don't deserve criticism for cynically using an eligibility loophole to be a good part of our production line at a key position.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 10:38 pm
We have been importing props, but it's the most difficult position to develop. France are still playing 34 year old Atonio, an import, despite having 14 professional clubs at the top level and 16 in Pro D2 - that's a pool of probably around 150 tighthead props at least, five per team, and still their best is Atonio.
England are still playing Old King Cole at 37 years of age, despite their professional set up. Malherbe and Koch are mid thirties, despite the ridiculously strong South African school system that leads to hunners of players going overseas to find a playing contract.
Glasgow and Edinburgh have to win. The Super 6 was supposed to help them develop talent at home and that has been binned. The only way forward now is to up the A game system and not pick anyone from outside of the Scottish system - do we have 8 props to cover Glasgow and Edinburgh A games that aren't in the senior squads? I don't think so, but we have to start somewhere.
Would Scotland have had as good a decade without the project players? No. But that doesn't mean project players isn't cynical and against the spirit of international sport. Which is why I think Scotland gets criticism (and very much deserves that criticism).
But to the initial point neither Scotland nor the player deserve any criticism for Tom Jordan who is a good player who has worked hard to turn a gap year really into an international cap.
The back row you're thinking of is Cornell du Preez who did come as a project player so yes it was cynical.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 9:11 amI like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:47 amIt being difficult doesn't mean we don't deserve criticism for cynically using an eligibility loophole to be a good part of our production line at a key position.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 10:38 pm
We have been importing props, but it's the most difficult position to develop. France are still playing 34 year old Atonio, an import, despite having 14 professional clubs at the top level and 16 in Pro D2 - that's a pool of probably around 150 tighthead props at least, five per team, and still their best is Atonio.
England are still playing Old King Cole at 37 years of age, despite their professional set up. Malherbe and Koch are mid thirties, despite the ridiculously strong South African school system that leads to hunners of players going overseas to find a playing contract.
Glasgow and Edinburgh have to win. The Super 6 was supposed to help them develop talent at home and that has been binned. The only way forward now is to up the A game system and not pick anyone from outside of the Scottish system - do we have 8 props to cover Glasgow and Edinburgh A games that aren't in the senior squads? I don't think so, but we have to start somewhere.
Would Scotland have had as good a decade without the project players? No. But that doesn't mean project players isn't cynical and against the spirit of international sport. Which is why I think Scotland gets criticism (and very much deserves that criticism).
But to the initial point neither Scotland nor the player deserve any criticism for Tom Jordan who is a good player who has worked hard to turn a gap year really into an international cap.
Scotland gets criticism from some halfwits from outside Scotland who don't understand the history of Scotland exporting people, the likes of John Barclay used to get included when those same halfwits were listing players not born in Scotland, so "not Scottish".
As to project players, I've never had an issue with people taking the huge step of upping sticks from their own home and trying to make a working life for themselves elsewhere, but Nel, Strauss and Schoeman over a period of 15 years or so is hardly an issue, the others like van der Walt and the guy whose name escapes me for the moment, the back row who had a horrendous ankle injury, they didn't come to Scotland as project players, they were accidental caps, but there was nothing cynical or illegal about it.
As to how difficult it is to be a good professional prop, Luan de Bruin was an U20s cap for South Africa, a country that has the best schools rugby system in the world - have you seen the crowds and the tv coverage they get? It's way ahead of what age group football, or any other sport, gets in this country.
A guy who was one of the best in his age group turned out to be a journeyman pro squad player at best.
Yes I want a line of Euan Murrays and Ryan Grants and I hope the A game structure will do something to address the woeful shortage we have had up to now, but I don't think it's appreciated just how difficult it is to make it at league level, let alone international.
I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 9:32 am However, the criticism is of the national union because a stated strategy of project players, for me and I think most, isn't in keeping with international sport.
And of course it's difficult to play professional sport. That is the point. We wouldn't all sit around watching and talking about mediocrats playing, we want to watch the top 0.01%. The point of international sport is you watch "your" 0.01 take on other countries 0.01%. Which is why project players is not within the spirit of it.
I don't think Boan Venter was signed as a project player but his last contract renewal was probably offered with an eye to him being available for Scotland by the end of it. He is another on that journeyman-to-internationalist route and I don't find it objectionable to be honest - certainly less so than waving the chequebook at any southern hemisphere player with a Scottish grandparent.Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 10:11 am We have only one project player at as far as I’m concerned, Schoeman. Not aware of any in the pipeline. And I don’t recall du Preez being a project player at Edinburgh.
But we get non stop shit for non Scottish players, as Tichthead says, despite that list including Cam Redpath and Adam Hastings.people can go and get fucked about that.
Part of that is Scottish cringe - we can’t accept Scotland being good at anything.
That'll be closer to the team for the A game v Chile. Tuipolotou junior will also be in there thoughcharltom wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:47 pm It would be lovely for all Scotland's players to be home grown, but it's not going to happen. I'm just happy to see any "imports" showing a commitment to the country, whether that's in living there for years, setting up a business, having children who may end up one day qualifying for Scotland, singing Flower of Scotland or, most importantly, putting their bodies on the line on the pitch against their (our) opponents.
Looking forward, assuming Darcy's passed his HIA2/3, I'd love to see Kinghorn in for Rowe, White in for Price, Russell in for Hastings (who was good!) against SA, and ideally Richardson in for Ashman. Not much change on the bench, other than this may be the time for the 6-2 split and Tom Jordan and Jamie Dobie have definitely shown enough to get the two slots covering the whole backline. One more to add to the bench forwards then: Ritchie, Crosbie or Muncaster perhaps?
I am at least as excited about the team against Portugal though. I suspect Townsend will use more first teamers than I would for that one, but this squad has proper depth, in my view, and it would be great to give some of the lads a shot who deserve it. Something like:
Bhatti Harrison Rae Williamson Craig Bradbury Douglas Muncaster Horne Jordan Reed Hutchinson McDowall Dobie Paterson (Sutherland Richardson Hurd Johnson Crosbie Hastings Currie Rowe/Kinghorn). Would that be too complacent? Keeps people safe for Australia.
But if it's more of a mixed team, the fringe players I would be keenest to see inserted are Harrison, Douglas, Bradbury, Reed and Paterson.
Ha - I'd forgotten all about the 'A' game! Mixed team then, with Mosese in for McDowall, and McBeth & EMM for Sutherland and Rae in the A match. But it's GT, so who knows...Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:12 pmThat'll be closer to the team for the A game v Chile. Tuipolotou junior will also be in there thoughcharltom wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:47 pm It would be lovely for all Scotland's players to be home grown, but it's not going to happen. I'm just happy to see any "imports" showing a commitment to the country, whether that's in living there for years, setting up a business, having children who may end up one day qualifying for Scotland, singing Flower of Scotland or, most importantly, putting their bodies on the line on the pitch against their (our) opponents.
Looking forward, assuming Darcy's passed his HIA2/3, I'd love to see Kinghorn in for Rowe, White in for Price, Russell in for Hastings (who was good!) against SA, and ideally Richardson in for Ashman. Not much change on the bench, other than this may be the time for the 6-2 split and Tom Jordan and Jamie Dobie have definitely shown enough to get the two slots covering the whole backline. One more to add to the bench forwards then: Ritchie, Crosbie or Muncaster perhaps?
I am at least as excited about the team against Portugal though. I suspect Townsend will use more first teamers than I would for that one, but this squad has proper depth, in my view, and it would be great to give some of the lads a shot who deserve it. Something like:
Bhatti Harrison Rae Williamson Craig Bradbury Douglas Muncaster Horne Jordan Reed Hutchinson McDowall Dobie Paterson (Sutherland Richardson Hurd Johnson Crosbie Hastings Currie Rowe/Kinghorn). Would that be too complacent? Keeps people safe for Australia.
But if it's more of a mixed team, the fringe players I would be keenest to see inserted are Harrison, Douglas, Bradbury, Reed and Paterson.
Doesn't picking Tuipuloto junior rather invalidate a lot of the previous arguments? He hasn't done anything to deserve a call up as yet, even for an A game.charltom wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 3:11 pmHa - I'd forgotten all about the 'A' game! Mixed team then, with Mosese in for McDowall, and McBeth & EMM for Sutherland and Rae in the A match. But it's GT, so who knows...Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:12 pmThat'll be closer to the team for the A game v Chile. Tuipolotou junior will also be in there thoughcharltom wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:47 pm It would be lovely for all Scotland's players to be home grown, but it's not going to happen. I'm just happy to see any "imports" showing a commitment to the country, whether that's in living there for years, setting up a business, having children who may end up one day qualifying for Scotland, singing Flower of Scotland or, most importantly, putting their bodies on the line on the pitch against their (our) opponents.
Looking forward, assuming Darcy's passed his HIA2/3, I'd love to see Kinghorn in for Rowe, White in for Price, Russell in for Hastings (who was good!) against SA, and ideally Richardson in for Ashman. Not much change on the bench, other than this may be the time for the 6-2 split and Tom Jordan and Jamie Dobie have definitely shown enough to get the two slots covering the whole backline. One more to add to the bench forwards then: Ritchie, Crosbie or Muncaster perhaps?
I am at least as excited about the team against Portugal though. I suspect Townsend will use more first teamers than I would for that one, but this squad has proper depth, in my view, and it would be great to give some of the lads a shot who deserve it. Something like:
Bhatti Harrison Rae Williamson Craig Bradbury Douglas Muncaster Horne Jordan Reed Hutchinson McDowall Dobie Paterson (Sutherland Richardson Hurd Johnson Crosbie Hastings Currie Rowe/Kinghorn). Would that be too complacent? Keeps people safe for Australia.
But if it's more of a mixed team, the fringe players I would be keenest to see inserted are Harrison, Douglas, Bradbury, Reed and Paterson.
I think we can assume a 23 year old prop at the time of signing who has talked about how much he wants to play for Scotland was signed by the SRU to play for Scotland. Venter is a good player and injury permitting we'll get about 4 years from him at least.robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:56 pmI don't think Boan Venter was signed as a project player but his last contract renewal was probably offered with an eye to him being available for Scotland by the end of it. He is another on that journeyman-to-internationalist route and I don't find it objectionable to be honest - certainly less so than waving the chequebook at any southern hemisphere player with a Scottish grandparent.Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 10:11 am We have only one project player at as far as I’m concerned, Schoeman. Not aware of any in the pipeline. And I don’t recall du Preez being a project player at Edinburgh.
But we get non stop shit for non Scottish players, as Tichthead says, despite that list including Cam Redpath and Adam Hastings.people can go and get fucked about that.
Part of that is Scottish cringe - we can’t accept Scotland being good at anything.
There is a double standard about the issue when you consider the other home nations do exactly the same despite having more domestic resources.
Mosese and Currie are realistically the only A team centre options that we have.Slick wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 3:25 pmDoesn't picking Tuipuloto junior rather invalidate a lot of the previous arguments? He hasn't done anything to deserve a call up as yet, even for an A game.
Do you really think Ireland get the same criticism we do? They beat us in the RWC with a backline incorporating three Kiwis and an Australian. I don’t recall this even being mentioned, much less criticised.I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 4:51 pmI think we can assume a 23 year old prop at the time of signing who has talked about how much he wants to play for Scotland was signed by the SRU to play for Scotland. Venter is a good player and injury permitting we'll get about 4 years from him at least.robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:56 pmI don't think Boan Venter was signed as a project player but his last contract renewal was probably offered with an eye to him being available for Scotland by the end of it. He is another on that journeyman-to-internationalist route and I don't find it objectionable to be honest - certainly less so than waving the chequebook at any southern hemisphere player with a Scottish grandparent.Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 10:11 am We have only one project player at as far as I’m concerned, Schoeman. Not aware of any in the pipeline. And I don’t recall du Preez being a project player at Edinburgh.
But we get non stop shit for non Scottish players, as Tichthead says, despite that list including Cam Redpath and Adam Hastings.people can go and get fucked about that.
Part of that is Scottish cringe - we can’t accept Scotland being good at anything.
There is a double standard about the issue when you consider the other home nations do exactly the same despite having more domestic resources.
And Ireland do get plenty criticism for their residency caps. England aren't in the business of doing it because the RFU don't (until recently) sign players and the WRU in the last decade have had very few (but as they're clubs are going bust much less appealing for guys with Schoeman's ability).
Hutchinson and McDowall won't both be involved barring injuries.I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 4:53 pmMosese and Currie are realistically the only A team centre options that we have.
I agree, they don’t get anywhere near the criticism we getYr Alban wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 7:14 pmDo you really think Ireland get the same criticism we do? They beat us in the RWC with a backline incorporating three Kiwis and an Australian. I don’t recall this even being mentioned, much less criticised.I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 4:51 pmI think we can assume a 23 year old prop at the time of signing who has talked about how much he wants to play for Scotland was signed by the SRU to play for Scotland. Venter is a good player and injury permitting we'll get about 4 years from him at least.robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:56 pm
I don't think Boan Venter was signed as a project player but his last contract renewal was probably offered with an eye to him being available for Scotland by the end of it. He is another on that journeyman-to-internationalist route and I don't find it objectionable to be honest - certainly less so than waving the chequebook at any southern hemisphere player with a Scottish grandparent.
There is a double standard about the issue when you consider the other home nations do exactly the same despite having more domestic resources.
And Ireland do get plenty criticism for their residency caps. England aren't in the business of doing it because the RFU don't (until recently) sign players and the WRU in the last decade have had very few (but as they're clubs are going bust much less appealing for guys with Schoeman's ability).
EDIT: which feels more than a little unfair, given that Ireland have way more registered players than we do, four successful teams, no competing professional sports, and a much-vaunted ‘conveyor belt’ of talent. And they still make extensive use of project players.
Ireland get a lot of criticism. Former players come out and criticise it, the firebrands like Andy Goode, Stephen Jones, and Eggchasers make a joke of Bundee o'Aki etc, CJ Stander was a controversial figure, the Jean Kleyn affair. When the rules changed it was Ireland and Scotland singled out.Yr Alban wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 7:14 pmDo you really think Ireland get the same criticism we do? They beat us in the RWC with a backline incorporating three Kiwis and an Australian. I don’t recall this even being mentioned, much less criticised.I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 4:51 pmI think we can assume a 23 year old prop at the time of signing who has talked about how much he wants to play for Scotland was signed by the SRU to play for Scotland. Venter is a good player and injury permitting we'll get about 4 years from him at least.robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:56 pm
I don't think Boan Venter was signed as a project player but his last contract renewal was probably offered with an eye to him being available for Scotland by the end of it. He is another on that journeyman-to-internationalist route and I don't find it objectionable to be honest - certainly less so than waving the chequebook at any southern hemisphere player with a Scottish grandparent.
There is a double standard about the issue when you consider the other home nations do exactly the same despite having more domestic resources.
And Ireland do get plenty criticism for their residency caps. England aren't in the business of doing it because the RFU don't (until recently) sign players and the WRU in the last decade have had very few (but as they're clubs are going bust much less appealing for guys with Schoeman's ability).
EDIT: which feels more than a little unfair, given that Ireland have way more registered players than we do, four successful teams, no competing professional sports, and a much-vaunted ‘conveyor belt’ of talent. And they still make extensive use of project players.
He was born (part-)Scottish and is dual qualifiedSlick wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 3:25 pmDoesn't picking Tuipuloto junior rather invalidate a lot of the previous arguments? He hasn't done anything to deserve a call up as yet, even for an A game.
Didn't he previously say he was wanting to try his luch for Oz, much like Maitland for NZ? Could have been Sione.
We’ve got far more granny caps, but not more residency. This is a squad analysis from RWC 2023:I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:12 pmIreland get a lot of criticism. Former players come out and criticise it, the firebrands like Andy Goode, Stephen Jones, and Eggchasers make a joke of Bundee o'Aki etc, CJ Stander was a controversial figure, the Jean Kleyn affair. When the rules changed it was Ireland and Scotland singled out.Yr Alban wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 7:14 pmDo you really think Ireland get the same criticism we do? They beat us in the RWC with a backline incorporating three Kiwis and an Australian. I don’t recall this even being mentioned, much less criticised.I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 4:51 pm
I think we can assume a 23 year old prop at the time of signing who has talked about how much he wants to play for Scotland was signed by the SRU to play for Scotland. Venter is a good player and injury permitting we'll get about 4 years from him at least.
And Ireland do get plenty criticism for their residency caps. England aren't in the business of doing it because the RFU don't (until recently) sign players and the WRU in the last decade have had very few (but as they're clubs are going bust much less appealing for guys with Schoeman's ability).
EDIT: which feels more than a little unfair, given that Ireland have way more registered players than we do, four successful teams, no competing professional sports, and a much-vaunted ‘conveyor belt’ of talent. And they still make extensive use of project players.
I think (a) we just pay more attention to Scotland than Ireland so focus on the criticism which makes it seem worse. And (b) where we maybe do get more criticism is that we just have more residency and far more granny caps (of which I have no issue and the criticism is largely unfair) than anyone else.
Graham scored against NZ in 2022, scored two in the draw against England in 2019.Big D wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:45 pm I was looking up who Graham had scored tries against to get to 28 and some things have stood out for me.
- 20 of the tries have come when Scotland have scored 30 or more, 11 of those have come in three games where Scotland have scored more than 50.
- Has only scored tries in winning 6N matches v Italy.
- Never scored against a SANZAR nation.
Duhan is also tryless against SANZAR nations but his tries have been significantly more impactful in securing 6N wins away in England (and home), France and Wales.
(Un)Interestingly Hogg never scored a try in a RWC or v Aus or NZ.
Missed the NZ one.Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 1:21 pmGraham scored against NZ in 2022, scored two in the draw against England in 2019.Big D wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:45 pm I was looking up who Graham had scored tries against to get to 28 and some things have stood out for me.
- 20 of the tries have come when Scotland have scored 30 or more, 11 of those have come in three games where Scotland have scored more than 50.
- Has only scored tries in winning 6N matches v Italy.
- Never scored against a SANZAR nation.
Duhan is also tryless against SANZAR nations but his tries have been significantly more impactful in securing 6N wins away in England (and home), France and Wales.
(Un)Interestingly Hogg never scored a try in a RWC or v Aus or NZ.
That's a real shame. Jordan at FB and Kinghorn to wing?westport wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 4:19 pm Darcy Graham out of this weekend's game against South Africa
The winger scored four tries in the win over Fiji, but failed a head injury assessment (HIA) after being replaced in the second half.
Head coach Gregor Townsend confirmed Graham has failed his subsequent HIA tests and will miss the visit of the world champions to Scottish Gas Murrayfield.
He said: “Darcy unfortunately failed his HI2 and his HI3, so he'll be ruled out for this weekend."
Missing the chance to face the world champions is another blow for Graham, who has missed most of the last 12 months with injury.
That's a great move from the SRU. Money shifted from Edinburgh because Duhan is going, aye?SomersetJock wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:11 pm Captain Sione T signed up until Summer of 2028. Brilliant bit of business
I suspect the money saved from the departure of Price , Turner & Gray funded this rather than some possible move for Duhan.Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 10:19 pmThat's a great move from the SRU. Money shifted from Edinburgh because Duhan is going, aye?SomersetJock wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:11 pm Captain Sione T signed up until Summer of 2028. Brilliant bit of business
He'll be 31 then, and still able to get a nice fat contract in France to retire on.
If we're not involved in a major land war in Europe by that time of course...
He is not over the hill, so not moving East. Simples.Dogbert wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 11:02 pmI suspect the money saved from the departure of Price , Turner & Gray funded this rather than some possible move for Duhan.Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 10:19 pmThat's a great move from the SRU. Money shifted from Edinburgh because Duhan is going, aye?SomersetJock wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:11 pm Captain Sione T signed up until Summer of 2028. Brilliant bit of business
He'll be 31 then, and still able to get a nice fat contract in France to retire on.
If we're not involved in a major land war in Europe by that time of course...
Of course Edinburgh are now free to tap Sione up for a move to the East coast
1 out of 3 isn't bad.