NPR

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:25 pm

Meanwhile is unrelated news.

Ah the joys of the Free Market economy as applied to energy supply, where the consumer always wins......oh, wait

Germany is totally ducked I see. The city of Hanover not allowing any hot water in public buildings including swimming pools.

I wonder when the UK government are going to suggest some power saving tips for winter? Or will they just talk about who will cut the most tax.

I've bought a 13.5 tog duvet and some long johns today. Luckily growing up my Dad was extremely strict with heating.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:30 pm Germany is totally ducked I see. The city of Hanover not allowing any hot water in public buildings including swimming pools.

I wonder when the UK government are going to suggest some power saving tips for winter? Or will they just talk about who will cut the most tax.

I've bought a 13.5 tog duvet and some long johns today. Luckily growing up my Dad was extremely strict with heating.

I can see a battle coming with regards to heating in our house. It's not going to be fun!

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:30 pm Germany is totally ducked I see. The city of Hanover not allowing any hot water in public buildings including swimming pools.

I wonder when the UK government are going to suggest some power saving tips for winter? Or will they just talk about who will cut the most tax.

I've bought a 13.5 tog duvet and some long johns today. Luckily growing up my Dad was extremely strict with heating.

Germany deserves it. The shame is that the rest of us didn’t prepare better

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:55 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:30 pm Germany is totally ducked I see. The city of Hanover not allowing any hot water in public buildings including swimming pools.

I wonder when the UK government are going to suggest some power saving tips for winter? Or will they just talk about who will cut the most tax.

I've bought a 13.5 tog duvet and some long johns today. Luckily growing up my Dad was extremely strict with heating.

Germany deserves it. The shame is that the rest of us didn’t prepare better

Party time is over. I can remember working in nuclear and having a right laugh with a colleague about how in the shit we would be in 10 years (and how stupid Germany was to shutdown nuclear power plants) now it is 9 years later. Wasn't difficult to look at expected generating plant life for nuclear and coal plants and other UK generating assets and to look at build timeliness. Also most assets were state built. Dungeness being shut down early was interesting as other AGR's have been life extended but output has been dropping as the asset has degraded and also become less reliable. UK gas storage facility being closed was a dense decision.

I had so much faith in the government on power that the first thing I did to the property I brought was cram as many solar panels on roof as possible, followed by improving the insulation and finally getting a house battery.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:55 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:30 pm Germany is totally ducked I see. The city of Hanover not allowing any hot water in public buildings including swimming pools.

I wonder when the UK government are going to suggest some power saving tips for winter? Or will they just talk about who will cut the most tax.

I've bought a 13.5 tog duvet and some long johns today. Luckily growing up my Dad was extremely strict with heating.

Germany deserves it. The shame is that the rest of us didn’t prepare better

Sure they do but it's a look into the winter (and longer if Europe never uses any russian fossil fuels which I find very unlikely but we'll see) for most of Europe unfortunately.

A lot of talk of council buildings being used as "warm rooms" in the UK but how on earth are councils which are mostly bankrupt to afford that? I heard today on a podcast a football club in Scotland Morton's energy bills have gone up 300% and another hike is coming - surely we'll see a number of sports clubs go to the wall with that post covid? I think a lot of bars/restaurants etc will go bust and with them a huge amount of the government backed covid loans.

This winter is going to absolute carnage right across Europe. It'll be very interesting if the political will holds. I'm not so sure it will especially if the magic money taps are off.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:58 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:55 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:30 pm Germany is totally ducked I see. The city of Hanover not allowing any hot water in public buildings including swimming pools.

I wonder when the UK government are going to suggest some power saving tips for winter? Or will they just talk about who will cut the most tax.

I've bought a 13.5 tog duvet and some long johns today. Luckily growing up my Dad was extremely strict with heating.

Germany deserves it. The shame is that the rest of us didn’t prepare better

Sure they do but it's a look into the winter (and longer if Europe never uses any russian fossil fuels which I find very unlikely but we'll see) for most of Europe unfortunately.

A lot of talk of council buildings being used as "warm rooms" in the UK but how on earth are councils which are mostly bankrupt to afford that? I heard today on a podcast a football club in Scotland Morton's energy bills have gone up 300% and another hike is coming - surely we'll see a number of sports clubs go to the wall with that post covid? I think a lot of bars/restaurants etc will go bust and with them a huge amount of the government backed covid loans.

This winter is going to absolute carnage right across Europe. It'll be very interesting if the political will holds. I'm not so sure it will especially if the magic money taps are off.

Strong possibility that Football and Rugby will have to say no evening kickoffs at times this winter.

Biffer wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:28 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:58 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:55 pm

Germany deserves it. The shame is that the rest of us didn’t prepare better

Sure they do but it's a look into the winter (and longer if Europe never uses any russian fossil fuels which I find very unlikely but we'll see) for most of Europe unfortunately.

A lot of talk of council buildings being used as "warm rooms" in the UK but how on earth are councils which are mostly bankrupt to afford that? I heard today on a podcast a football club in Scotland Morton's energy bills have gone up 300% and another hike is coming - surely we'll see a number of sports clubs go to the wall with that post covid? I think a lot of bars/restaurants etc will go bust and with them a huge amount of the government backed covid loans.

This winter is going to absolute carnage right across Europe. It'll be very interesting if the political will holds. I'm not so sure it will especially if the magic money taps are off.

Strong possibility that Football and Rugby will have to say no evening kickoffs at times this winter.

And what about undersoil heating etc? Good year to have a plastic pitch...

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:03 pm

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:25 pm

Meanwhile is unrelated news.

Ah the joys of the Free Market economy as applied to energy supply, where the consumer always wins......oh, wait

Indeed, the supplier never loses because you can't not have suppliers! There will always be consumers, in varying degrees of desperation, no matter what.

That should be informing it's not a free market. Not even close.

I'm not in favour of true free markets, I've never known anyone who is, just it's odd to take a swipe at free markets for what's an almighty cock up of political planning, honesty/sustainability, regulated markets and various monopoly constructs that shouldn't be putting anyone in mind of a free market

petej wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:40 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:55 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:30 pm Germany is totally ducked I see. The city of Hanover not allowing any hot water in public buildings including swimming pools.

I wonder when the UK government are going to suggest some power saving tips for winter? Or will they just talk about who will cut the most tax.

I've bought a 13.5 tog duvet and some long johns today. Luckily growing up my Dad was extremely strict with heating.

Germany deserves it. The shame is that the rest of us didn’t prepare better

Party time is over. I can remember working in nuclear and having a right laugh with a colleague about how in the shit we would be in 10 years (and how stupid Germany was to shutdown nuclear power plants) now it is 9 years later. Wasn't difficult to look at expected generating plant life for nuclear and coal plants and other UK generating assets and to look at build timeliness. Also most assets were state built. Dungeness being shut down early was interesting as other AGR's have been life extended but output has been dropping as the asset has degraded and also become less reliable. UK gas storage facility being closed was a dense decision.

I had so much faith in the government on power that the first thing I did to the property I brought was cram as many solar panels on roof as possible, followed by improving the insulation and finally getting a house battery.

I don't get angry at politics all that often, but the gas storage decision is a time I did (didn't follow it at the time, was genuinely astonished reading it recently). What minister/civil servant/anyone signed off on that?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:44 am

petej wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:40 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:55 pm

Germany deserves it. The shame is that the rest of us didn’t prepare better

Party time is over. I can remember working in nuclear and having a right laugh with a colleague about how in the shit we would be in 10 years (and how stupid Germany was to shutdown nuclear power plants) now it is 9 years later. Wasn't difficult to look at expected generating plant life for nuclear and coal plants and other UK generating assets and to look at build timeliness. Also most assets were state built. Dungeness being shut down early was interesting as other AGR's have been life extended but output has been dropping as the asset has degraded and also become less reliable. UK gas storage facility being closed was a dense decision.

I had so much faith in the government on power that the first thing I did to the property I brought was cram as many solar panels on roof as possible, followed by improving the insulation and finally getting a house battery.

I don't get angry at politics all that often, but the gas storage decision is a time I did (didn't follow it at the time, was genuinely astonished reading it recently). What minister/civil servant/anyone signed off on that?

For the sake of saving £75m a year for 10 years! Not sure who signed it off, searching just says "ministers", but there is this...

In 2013, the then energy minister Michael Fallon said the decision to allow Rough to close would save the UK £750m over 10 years. Instead, a diverse range of energy sources would ensure the public received “reliable supplies of electricity and gas at minimum cost”.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:53 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:44 am

petej wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:40 pm

Party time is over. I can remember working in nuclear and having a right laugh with a colleague about how in the shit we would be in 10 years (and how stupid Germany was to shutdown nuclear power plants) now it is 9 years later. Wasn't difficult to look at expected generating plant life for nuclear and coal plants and other UK generating assets and to look at build timeliness. Also most assets were state built. Dungeness being shut down early was interesting as other AGR's have been life extended but output has been dropping as the asset has degraded and also become less reliable. UK gas storage facility being closed was a dense decision.

I had so much faith in the government on power that the first thing I did to the property I brought was cram as many solar panels on roof as possible, followed by improving the insulation and finally getting a house battery.

I don't get angry at politics all that often, but the gas storage decision is a time I did (didn't follow it at the time, was genuinely astonished reading it recently). What minister/civil servant/anyone signed off on that?

For the sake of saving £75m a year for 10 years! Not sure who signed it off, searching just says "ministers", but there is this...

In 2013, the then energy minister Michael Fallon said the decision to allow Rough to close would save the UK £750m over 10 years. Instead, a diverse range of energy sources would ensure the public received “reliable supplies of electricity and gas at minimum cost”.

Treasury Brain. The British State has lost an appreciation of the value of State assets and resilience, we will need to rediscover it fast or we will be eaten alive over the next decade.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:57 am Treasury Brain. The British State has lost an appreciation of the value of State assets and resilience, we will need to rediscover it fast or we will be eaten alive over the next decade.

There does seem to be an ethos of just about enough resource, is enough combined with "just in time", with too little regard for resilience. Read that on that hottest day of the year we had to import emergency electricity supply from Belgium and pay a hugely inflated price at short notice otherwise parts of London would have likely had blackouts. And we also have the almost yearly hosepipe bans and other restrictions scenario looming due to water supply reserves dwindling ( despite the North having far more than it knows what to do with).

And an overlooked issue with large new housing developments is concerns that essential utilities are placed under more strain by concentrating yet more demand in densely populated parts of the SE. While our government just wants to be hands-off about these matters.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:10 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:57 am Treasury Brain. The British State has lost an appreciation of the value of State assets and resilience, we will need to rediscover it fast or we will be eaten alive over the next decade.

There does seem to be an ethos of just about enough resource, is enough combined with "just in time", with too little regard for resilience. Read that on that hottest day of the year we had to import emergency electricity supply from Belgium and pay a hugely inflated price at short notice otherwise parts of London would have likely had blackouts. And we also have the almost yearly hosepipe bans and other restrictions scenario looming due to water supply reserves dwindling ( despite the North having far more than it knows what to do with).

And an overlooked issue with large new housing developments is concerns that essential utilities are placed under more strain by concentrating yet more demand in densely populated parts of the SE. While our government just wants to be hands-off about these matters.

Many of these stupid, short-termist decisions go back to Nimby politics, a lot like why houses aren't being built !

No one wants HT power lines, even though having a robust network is critical.
No one wants new reservoirs, because they always are in beautiful areas.
No one wants wind farms, on shore, or off shore... etc, etc, etc

Its astonishing that the majority of the British public doesn't care that untreated sewage has been dumped, hundreds of thousands of times into watercourses, since the Government green lighted it; but suggest they stop washing their cars, & they throw the toys out of the pram.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:17 am

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:10 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:57 am Treasury Brain. The British State has lost an appreciation of the value of State assets and resilience, we will need to rediscover it fast or we will be eaten alive over the next decade.

There does seem to be an ethos of just about enough resource, is enough combined with "just in time", with too little regard for resilience. Read that on that hottest day of the year we had to import emergency electricity supply from Belgium and pay a hugely inflated price at short notice otherwise parts of London would have likely had blackouts. And we also have the almost yearly hosepipe bans and other restrictions scenario looming due to water supply reserves dwindling ( despite the North having far more than it knows what to do with).

And an overlooked issue with large new housing developments is concerns that essential utilities are placed under more strain by concentrating yet more demand in densely populated parts of the SE. While our government just wants to be hands-off about these matters.

Many of these stupid, short-termist decisions go back to Nimby politics, a lot like why houses aren't being built !

No one wants HT power lines, even though having a robust network is critical.
No one wants new reservoirs, because they always are in beautiful areas.
No one wants wind farms, on shore, or off shore... etc, etc, etc

Its astonishing that the majority of the British public doesn't care that untreated sewage has been dumped, hundreds of thousands of times into watercourses, since the Government green lighted it; but suggest they stop washing their cars, & they throw the toys out of the pram.

Yes. The problem is that British politics rewards appealing to what is actually not a majority who oppose these things (a substantial majority favour onshore wind but the minority are more vocal, for example). When to get elected you are really swinging the votes of less than 10,000 people there is an incentive to back the engaged minority regardless of the long term damage to the country.
The frustration is it doesn't have to be like this at all. We are blessed with plenty of rain, at least in the north and west. We should never be worried about water supply and it could probably double as hydro schemes. We are really good at wind energy! We should do so much more of it.
And we have in Cambridge a city that could be one of the most exciting and dynamic centres of economic growth on the planet. Except we don't because woe betide any politician who suggests building houses on some flat fields in East Anglia. Britain's potential is enormous if someone was only to grasp it.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:24 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:17 am

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:10 am

There does seem to be an ethos of just about enough resource, is enough combined with "just in time", with too little regard for resilience. Read that on that hottest day of the year we had to import emergency electricity supply from Belgium and pay a hugely inflated price at short notice otherwise parts of London would have likely had blackouts. And we also have the almost yearly hosepipe bans and other restrictions scenario looming due to water supply reserves dwindling ( despite the North having far more than it knows what to do with).

And an overlooked issue with large new housing developments is concerns that essential utilities are placed under more strain by concentrating yet more demand in densely populated parts of the SE. While our government just wants to be hands-off about these matters.

Many of these stupid, short-termist decisions go back to Nimby politics, a lot like why houses aren't being built !

No one wants HT power lines, even though having a robust network is critical.
No one wants new reservoirs, because they always are in beautiful areas.
No one wants wind farms, on shore, or off shore... etc, etc, etc

Its astonishing that the majority of the British public doesn't care that untreated sewage has been dumped, hundreds of thousands of times into watercourses, since the Government green lighted it; but suggest they stop washing their cars, & they throw the toys out of the pram.

Yes. The problem is that British politics rewards appealing to what is actually not a majority who oppose these things (a substantial majority favour onshore wind but the minority are more vocal, for example). When to get elected you are really swinging the votes of less than 10,000 people there is an incentive to back the engaged minority regardless of the long term damage to the country.
The frustration is it doesn't have to be like this at all. We are blessed with plenty of rain, at least in the north and west. We should never be worried about water supply and it could probably double as hydro schemes. We are really good at wind energy! We should do so much more of it.
And we have in Cambridge a city that could be one of the most exciting and dynamic centres of economic growth on the planet. Except we don't because woe betide any politician who suggests building houses on some flat fields in East Anglia. Britain's potential is enormous if someone was only to grasp it.

I think the link between MPs & constituencies makes it difficult to break the cycle of narrow local agendas, blocking projects that are or Regional, or National importance.

I'm not sure if using a, "List system", of voting would help break this, because it makes it harder to have a go at you local MP, if there's a project passing thru the constituency ?

The best new fixed 1 year deal of my supplier is £5000

meanwhile there appears to be more outraged that Amazon Prime went up £9.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:24 am The best new fixed 1 year deal of my supplier is £5000

meanwhile there appears to be more outraged that Amazon Prime went up £9.

That's a good deal. Who are you with?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:24 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:17 am

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:10 am

There does seem to be an ethos of just about enough resource, is enough combined with "just in time", with too little regard for resilience. Read that on that hottest day of the year we had to import emergency electricity supply from Belgium and pay a hugely inflated price at short notice otherwise parts of London would have likely had blackouts. And we also have the almost yearly hosepipe bans and other restrictions scenario looming due to water supply reserves dwindling ( despite the North having far more than it knows what to do with).

And an overlooked issue with large new housing developments is concerns that essential utilities are placed under more strain by concentrating yet more demand in densely populated parts of the SE. While our government just wants to be hands-off about these matters.

Many of these stupid, short-termist decisions go back to Nimby politics, a lot like why houses aren't being built !

No one wants HT power lines, even though having a robust network is critical.
No one wants new reservoirs, because they always are in beautiful areas.
No one wants wind farms, on shore, or off shore... etc, etc, etc

Its astonishing that the majority of the British public doesn't care that untreated sewage has been dumped, hundreds of thousands of times into watercourses, since the Government green lighted it; but suggest they stop washing their cars, & they throw the toys out of the pram.

Yes. The problem is that British politics rewards appealing to what is actually not a majority who oppose these things (a substantial majority favour onshore wind but the minority are more vocal, for example). When to get elected you are really swinging the votes of less than 10,000 people there is an incentive to back the engaged minority regardless of the long term damage to the country.
The frustration is it doesn't have to be like this at all. We are blessed with plenty of rain, at least in the north and west. We should never be worried about water supply and it could probably double as hydro schemes. We are really good at wind energy! We should do so much more of it.
And we have in Cambridge a city that could be one of the most exciting and dynamic centres of economic growth on the planet. Except we don't because woe betide any politician who suggests building houses on some flat fields in East Anglia. Britain's potential is enormous if someone was only to grasp it.

Some of the best farm land in the UK and people want to build on it?
Should be building homes on the shitty land that can't be farmed but that is in the places no one wants to live.


10 million added to population since the last reservoir was built

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:03 am

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:24 am The best new fixed 1 year deal of my supplier is £5000

meanwhile there appears to be more outraged that Amazon Prime went up £9.

That's a good deal. Who are you with?

Scottish power

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:49 pm

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:03 am

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:24 am The best new fixed 1 year deal of my supplier is £5000

meanwhile there appears to be more outraged that Amazon Prime went up £9.

That's a good deal. Who are you with?

Scottish power

Might have to look at them. EDF are killing me.

The Don't Pay campaign is going to burn a lot of poor people's credit ratings in a way that they will struggle to recover from.

Without mass involvement a few people are going to get screwed by the financial system if they do that.

When reality properly hits there will be a public reaction. I've had people at work start talking about poorer relatives calculating how many showers they'll be able to afford each week. That's vicarious reality for most of them, the rural well off. But at least there's some awareness.

I'm fortunate enough to be considering solar panels and a battery to try and offset energy costs, but it really is intimidating. With a brand new mortgage and plenty of renovation expenses we're going to struggle to build up an emergency savings fund with living costs.

Iain(bobbity) wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:13 am Without mass involvement a few people are going to get screwed by the financial system if they do that.

Yes someone who has taken this movement in good faith is going to be woken up by debt collectors, not pretty.

I for one am relieved that at least the shareholders of the energy firms are going to keep solvent during these difficult times.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:09 am The Don't Pay campaign is going to burn a lot of poor people's credit ratings in a way that they will struggle to recover from.

So if you're a long term renter or struggling with your mortgage anyway or already in debt with an already not so good credit rating, or even a pensioner... what have you got to lose?

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:00 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:09 am The Don't Pay campaign is going to burn a lot of poor people's credit ratings in a way that they will struggle to recover from.

So if you're a long term renter or struggling with your mortgage anyway or already in debt with an already not so good credit rating, or even a pensioner... what have you got to lose?

Long terms renters can guarantee they will always rent after this, for others the debt collectors will come for them. I take the point but I think a lot of well meaning people will be burned by this in a campaign that I assume as ever is being run by people who will not be so badly affected.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:00 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:09 am The Don't Pay campaign is going to burn a lot of poor people's credit ratings in a way that they will struggle to recover from.

So if you're a long term renter or struggling with your mortgage anyway or already in debt with an already not so good credit rating, or even a pensioner... what have you got to lose?

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/fact-s ... e%20first.

"If you have not paid your energy bill after 28 days from the date of the bill, your supplier can start action that could lead to disconnection."

"If you don’t come to an agreement to pay your debt, your supplier can apply for a warrant from the magistrates’ court, making it legal for them to enter your home to disconnect your energy supply."

"Theft of energy supply or tampering with a meter can result in a criminal prosecution leading to: a £1,000 fine, civil proceedings for the recovery of the debt and, less frequently, imprisonment."

"Your supplier may send information about your account history and court action to credit reference agencies. This may affect your ability to get credit in the future."

Lobby wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:27 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:00 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:09 am The Don't Pay campaign is going to burn a lot of poor people's credit ratings in a way that they will struggle to recover from.

So if you're a long term renter or struggling with your mortgage anyway or already in debt with an already not so good credit rating, or even a pensioner... what have you got to lose?

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/fact-s ... e%20first.

"If you have not paid your energy bill after 28 days from the date of the bill, your supplier can start action that could lead to disconnection."

"If you don’t come to an agreement to pay your debt, your supplier can apply for a warrant from the magistrates’ court, making it legal for them to enter your home to disconnect your energy supply."

"Theft of energy supply or tampering with a meter can result in a criminal prosecution leading to: a £1,000 fine, civil proceedings for the recovery of the debt and, less frequently, imprisonment."

"Your supplier may send information about your account history and court action to credit reference agencies. This may affect your ability to get credit in the future."

Sure but I think the thought is that if the strike is large enough they won't do this. That's the entire point in the movement, no?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:07 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:00 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:09 am The Don't Pay campaign is going to burn a lot of poor people's credit ratings in a way that they will struggle to recover from.

So if you're a long term renter or struggling with your mortgage anyway or already in debt with an already not so good credit rating, or even a pensioner... what have you got to lose?

Long terms renters can guarantee they will always rent after this, for others the debt collectors will come for them. I take the point but I think a lot of well meaning people will be burned by this in a campaign that I assume as ever is being run by people who will not be so badly affected.

Would be 6 years (I think?) to be cleared from a credit rating. I take your point, I doubt anyone who is planning on buying in the next 2-3 years joining this. But I can a sizeable number of renters who feel disillusioned at the housing market joining.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:52 am

Lobby wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:27 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:00 am

So if you're a long term renter or struggling with your mortgage anyway or already in debt with an already not so good credit rating, or even a pensioner... what have you got to lose?

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/fact-s ... e%20first.

"If you have not paid your energy bill after 28 days from the date of the bill, your supplier can start action that could lead to disconnection."

"If you don’t come to an agreement to pay your debt, your supplier can apply for a warrant from the magistrates’ court, making it legal for them to enter your home to disconnect your energy supply."

"Theft of energy supply or tampering with a meter can result in a criminal prosecution leading to: a £1,000 fine, civil proceedings for the recovery of the debt and, less frequently, imprisonment."

"Your supplier may send information about your account history and court action to credit reference agencies. This may affect your ability to get credit in the future."

Sure but I think the thought is that if the strike is large enough they won't do this. That's the entire point in the movement, no?

Good luck with that when the Court papers arrive.

Even if large numbers of people refuse to pay, the most likely consequence is that any of the remaining smaller energy companies would probably go bust, leading to an even greater concentration of the energy supply market.

Lobby wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:00 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:52 am

Lobby wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:27 am

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/fact-s ... e%20first.

"If you have not paid your energy bill after 28 days from the date of the bill, your supplier can start action that could lead to disconnection."

"If you don’t come to an agreement to pay your debt, your supplier can apply for a warrant from the magistrates’ court, making it legal for them to enter your home to disconnect your energy supply."

"Theft of energy supply or tampering with a meter can result in a criminal prosecution leading to: a £1,000 fine, civil proceedings for the recovery of the debt and, less frequently, imprisonment."

"Your supplier may send information about your account history and court action to credit reference agencies. This may affect your ability to get credit in the future."

Sure but I think the thought is that if the strike is large enough they won't do this. That's the entire point in the movement, no?

Good luck with that when the Court papers arrive.

Even if large numbers of people refuse to pay, the most likely consequence is that any of the remaining smaller energy companies would probably go bust, leading to an even greater concentration of the energy supply market.

I think the number one aim is for the government increase support to stop that from happening.

My argument isn't this will work - it'll obviously be a disaster. The price rises for many are already a disaster. So I expect they want it to hurt the govt and suppliers more than it hurts them. And I will not be partaking for PBs credit rating reasoning.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am

Lobby wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:00 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:52 am

Sure but I think the thought is that if the strike is large enough they won't do this. That's the entire point in the movement, no?

Good luck with that when the Court papers arrive.

Even if large numbers of people refuse to pay, the most likely consequence is that any of the remaining smaller energy companies would probably go bust, leading to an even greater concentration of the energy supply market.

I think the number one aim is for the government increase support to stop that from happening.

My argument isn't this will work - it'll obviously be a disaster. The price rises for many are already a disaster. So I expect they want it to hurt the govt and suppliers more than it hurts them. And I will not be partaking for PBs credit rating reasoning.

As PB points out, campaigns like this are irresponsible as they encourage people to take extremely risky actions with little thoughts for the possible consequences for the individuals foolish enough to join them.

The chances are the organisers will be quite content sending out angry social media messages that can be retweeted by people like IH for likes, but they themselves won't be stupid enough to actually cancel their DDs or risk having their own energy supplies cut off.

Lobby wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:26 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:16 am

Lobby wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:00 am

Good luck with that when the Court papers arrive.

Even if large numbers of people refuse to pay, the most likely consequence is that any of the remaining smaller energy companies would probably go bust, leading to an even greater concentration of the energy supply market.

I think the number one aim is for the government increase support to stop that from happening.

My argument isn't this will work - it'll obviously be a disaster. The price rises for many are already a disaster. So I expect they want it to hurt the govt and suppliers more than it hurts them. And I will not be partaking for PBs credit rating reasoning.

As PB points out, campaigns like this are irresponsible as they encourage people to take extremely risky actions with little thoughts for the possible consequences for the individuals foolish enough to join them.

The chances are the organisers will be quite content sending out angry social media messages that can be retweeted by people like IH for likes, but they themselves won't be stupid enough to actually cancel their DDs or risk having their own energy supplies cut off.

Would be surprised considering they're an anonymous campaign. It's hardly for clout if you don't know who it is.

My great concerns are:
1) I'm very much doubtful that enough people will take part to make a serious difference (the energy still needs to be paid for anyway)
2) The people organising this I would guess are relatively insulated from the consequences, and they are encouraging people who cannot afford to do this to make a decision that could have severe consequences for them and massively underplaying the risks that they are taking. No doubt when said consequences happen those organising this will be nowhere to be seen.

I don't have a good answer for what to do this winter, but I'm very confident this isn't it.

Wondering what options HMG has here?

Leaving aside the Governments neglect of energy storage/nuclear power in the medium term the government cant make more hydrocarbons through political will. It could print more money to but them but chasing a commodity with money printing leads to hyper inflation (and its going to be pretty fucking horrendous this year anyway).

UK gas and oil extraction is already taxed at historically high levels so not really much that can be done here - cant tax companies on profits they make overseas.

Kind of going against my first point but I wonder if buying all the domestic energy suppliers at market rate (HMG already owns bulb) and forming a nationalised energy provider helps at all? Yeah they could provide energy at cost domestically but they still have to buy LNG from international markets

Seen it would costs 3-4 billion to buy them all and then you could make them eat a massive loss (still ultimately funded by the taxpayer/future taxpayers)..this is what France has done with EDF. Feel Taxpayers are going to end up paying either way might as well get an asset for it.

I recognise the benefits of a free market but energy security is a big concern.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:37 pm My great concerns are:
1) I'm very much doubtful that enough people will take part to make a serious difference (the energy still needs to be paid for anyway)
2) The people organising this I would guess are relatively insulated from the consequences, and they are encouraging people who cannot afford to do this to make a decision that could have severe consequences for them and massively underplaying the risks that they are taking. No doubt when said consequences happen those organising this will be nowhere to be seen.

I don't have a good answer for what to do this winter, but I'm very confident this isn't it.

I agree with point one. Although you have to wonder how many people just can't pay.

On point two I am not so sure. I don't understand what's really in it for an anonymous group to do that? I think they're quite young and young people are exactly the type who would do this because they have no assets, much fewer savings and so less to lose really.