NPR

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:55 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:19 pm It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

Never has been. It's the "price" that is paid for having a competitive domestic comp. The pay off is exactly that: T14 and GP are far bigger commercial draws. URC, like all its predecessors, is sh*te watched by one man and his sheep. The Irish have found a formula that works for them in that a sh*t domestic comp does not undermine their national prospects.

Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.

PornDog wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:33 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 6:54 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:19 pm It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

You looking for excuses for having kak teams?

Welcome aboard - it's an incredibly common reaction by pigdogs round these parts (not all of course, but the loud obnoxious ones) - if they're not winning then the reason is that the game is unfair. Re-shape the competition to suit them better - but as soon as they stop winning again its all because everything is just so unfair. Never mind that Toga is the biggest cheerleader for the most infamous financial dopers in the game, but no, it's just so unfair!

Also of course, as mentioned above, outside of Leinster where is this URC dominance coming from? Leinster are an excellent side, but no, they can't be better than English sides so therefore they must have an unfair advantage!

I always love hearing this from English fans - so long as they focus on how unfair everything is instead of learning how to do things right (like realising that squad rotation is necessary and there's a skill to getting it right*), the longer they'll externalise their failings and the longer they'll suffer them, and the heartier I will laugh at them. Unfortunately though some Munster heads have taken up that baton with regard to their youth development failings and that pisses me off no end because it affects the Irish team - but hey ho!


* I do think a lot of teams are slowly getting on board with this - Ugo Monye mentioned some time ago in comms (could have been towards the end of last season) that Gluoucester had used something like 45 players over the course of the year A lot of fans still have their heads buried in the sand though.

Anyone who watches the Pro ∞/URC sees that Leinster swap in academy guys every week and they play pretty much at the same level as everyone else, the systems seems to start at the schools - apologies, I don't mean to teach egg-sucking, you'll know more about this than me, but it has always been the case.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:55 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:19 pm It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

Never has been. It's the "price" that is paid for having a competitive domestic comp. The pay off is exactly that: T14 and GP are far bigger commercial draws. URC, like all its predecessors, is sh*te watched by one man and his sheep. The Irish have found a formula that works for them in that a sh*t domestic comp does not undermine their national prospects.

Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.

The derbies can be tight, edgy affairs, but the quality of entertainment is roughly the same across the GP and URC.

The Top 14 used to be dire, and to be honest I haven't seen a lot of it for a couple of years now.

PornDog wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:33 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 6:54 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:19 pm It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

You looking for excuses for having kak teams?

Welcome aboard - it's an incredibly common reaction by pigdogs round these parts (not all of course, but the loud obnoxious ones) - if they're not winning then the reason is that the game is unfair. Re-shape the competition to suit them better - but as soon as they stop winning again its all because everything is just so unfair. Never mind that Toga is the biggest cheerleader for the most infamous financial dopers in the game, but no, it's just so unfair!

Also of course, as mentioned above, outside of Leinster where is this URC dominance coming from? Leinster are an excellent side, but no, they can't be better than English sides so therefore they must have an unfair advantage!

I always love hearing this from English fans - so long as they focus on how unfair everything is instead of learning how to do things right (like realising that squad rotation is necessary and there's a skill to getting it right*), the longer they'll externalise their failings and the longer they'll suffer them, and the heartier I will laugh at them. Unfortunately though some Munster heads have taken up that baton with regard to their youth development failings and that pisses me off no end because it affects the Irish team - but hey ho!


* I do think a lot of teams are slowly getting on board with this - Ugo Monye mentioned some time ago in comms (could have been towards the end of last season) that Gluoucester had used something like 45 players over the course of the year A lot of fans still have their heads buried in the sand though.

It will be interesting to see how the South African teams will go next year. Luckily we have our CC running the same time with three professional teams not playing URC. So depth shouldn't be a problem if our provinces open up to loan players. Our CC is the ideal competition to bring young players through the system.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:44 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:55 pm Never has been. It's the "price" that is paid for having a competitive domestic comp. The pay off is exactly that: T14 and GP are far bigger commercial draws. URC, like all its predecessors, is sh*te watched by one man and his sheep. The Irish have found a formula that works for them in that a sh*t domestic comp does not undermine their national prospects.

Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.

The derbies can be tight, edgy affairs, but the quality of entertainment is roughly the same across the GP and URC.

The Top 14 used to be dire, and to be honest I haven't seen a lot of it for a couple of years now.

The GP is better entertainment because it is far more random. As a flatter league teams can go from shit to good and vice versa very quickly (no chance of Leinster ever finishing bottom of the erc).

The Irish teams have very stable playing squads which helps compared to English and French teams and Leinster are essentially the URC's Bayern Munich or Real Madrid. South Africans should be cautious about getting in the URC as Ireland are expert poachers so having your players in that shop window might not be a plus. If the irfu want the URC to succeed they really actually need to get together with the other unions in it and help them get into shape (the wru in particular need lessons).

I'd also question how many commentators here have cast even a casual glance at the URC league table. I think the sides placed 2,3,4 are all on the same points with 5,6 two points down. Doesn't get much closer than that.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:41 am
Anyone who watches the Pro ∞/URC sees that Leinster swap in academy guys every week and they play pretty much at the same level as everyone else, the systems seems to start at the schools - apologies, I don't mean to teach egg-sucking, you'll know more about this than me, but it has always been the case.

Yeah, it's annoying but Leinster seemingly have an endless supply of basically decent players and it's not like they are trawling the international market with a blank chequebook to get them.

Leinster players are more rested when they play in Europe, but let's face it, they would still be able to use the same rotation policy if they played in the 'competitive' GP. They'd be horsing teams like Bath and Worcester with a team full of kids and a bunch of other players you've never heard of but somehow seem to have 50+ appearances.

petej wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:01 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:44 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am
Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.

The derbies can be tight, edgy affairs, but the quality of entertainment is roughly the same across the GP and URC.

The Top 14 used to be dire, and to be honest I haven't seen a lot of it for a couple of years now.

The GP is better entertainment because it is far more random. As a flatter league teams can go from shit to good and vice versa very quickly (no chance of Leinster ever finishing bottom of the erc).

The Irish teams have very stable playing squads which helps compared to English and French teams and Leinster are essentially the URC's Bayern Munich or Real Madrid. South Africans should be cautious about getting in the URC as Ireland are expert poachers so having your players in that shop window might not be a plus. If the irfu want the URC to succeed they really actually need to get together with the other unions in it and help them get into shape (the wru in particular need lessons).

There's very little chance of Saracens getting relegated without a 70 point reduction penalty, same for all the top half teams. The relegation battle is usually the same two or three teams punching it out every year.

I wonder how many imports the URC teams have in comparison to the likes of Sale?

eg, around half the Tigers' senior squad are imports.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester ... rent_squad

petej wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:01 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:44 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am
Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.

The derbies can be tight, edgy affairs, but the quality of entertainment is roughly the same across the GP and URC.

The Top 14 used to be dire, and to be honest I haven't seen a lot of it for a couple of years now.

The GP is better entertainment because it is far more random. As a flatter league teams can go from shit to good and vice versa very quickly (no chance of Leinster ever finishing bottom of the erc).

The Irish teams have very stable playing squads which helps compared to English and French teams and Leinster are essentially the URC's Bayern Munich or Real Madrid. South Africans should be cautious about getting in the URC as Ireland are expert poachers so having your players in that shop window might not be a plus. If the irfu want the URC to succeed they really actually need to get together with the other unions in it and help them get into shape (the wru in particular need lessons).

It's the opposit. Japan is the big poachers of our top players. I think we should use those players the way Am is use. Japan season is finish, Springbok stars like PSdT, Marx, Sous, Willie, ext can be handy now with the business end of URC.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:37 am

There's very little chance of Saracens getting relegated without a 70 point reduction penalty, same for all the top half teams. The relegation battle is usually the same two or three teams punching it out every year.

I wonder how many imports the URC teams have in comparison to the likes of Sale?

eg, around half the Tigers' senior squad are imports.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester ... rent_squad

Leicester would have been relegated if Saracens didn't have those points deducted. Bath would be relegated this year normally. Northampton and Harlequins have been relegated in the last decade.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:37 am

petej wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:01 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:44 am



The derbies can be tight, edgy affairs, but the quality of entertainment is roughly the same across the GP and URC.

The Top 14 used to be dire, and to be honest I haven't seen a lot of it for a couple of years now.

The GP is better entertainment because it is far more random. As a flatter league teams can go from shit to good and vice versa very quickly (no chance of Leinster ever finishing bottom of the erc).

The Irish teams have very stable playing squads which helps compared to English and French teams and Leinster are essentially the URC's Bayern Munich or Real Madrid. South Africans should be cautious about getting in the URC as Ireland are expert poachers so having your players in that shop window might not be a plus. If the irfu want the URC to succeed they really actually need to get together with the other unions in it and help them get into shape (the wru in particular need lessons).

There's very little chance of Saracens getting relegated without a 70 point reduction penalty, same for all the top half teams. The relegation battle is usually the same two or three teams punching it out every year.

I wonder how many imports the URC teams have in comparison to the likes of Sale?

eg, around half the Tigers' senior squad are imports.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester ... rent_squad

Are you classing reffell and Hurd as imports?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:55 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:19 pm It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

Never has been. It's the "price" that is paid for having a competitive domestic comp. The pay off is exactly that: T14 and GP are far bigger commercial draws. URC, like all its predecessors, is sh*te watched by one man and his sheep. The Irish have found a formula that works for them in that a sh*t domestic comp does not undermine their national prospects.

Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.

I'm in the same camp.

Actually, in regards Europe, it might not even come down solely to the quality. The fact is most real supporters have a greater vested interest in the rivalries in their own league than some occasional, intermittent, cross continent stuff. Push came so shove of T14 v Europe, it's clear which is being canned.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:57 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:55 pm

Never has been. It's the "price" that is paid for having a competitive domestic comp. The pay off is exactly that: T14 and GP are far bigger commercial draws. URC, like all its predecessors, is sh*te watched by one man and his sheep. The Irish have found a formula that works for them in that a sh*t domestic comp does not undermine their national prospects.

Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.

I'm in the same camp.

Actually, in regards Europe, it might not even come down solely to the quality. The fact is most real supporters have a greater vested interest in the rivalries in their own league than some occasional, intermittent, cross continent stuff. Push came so shove of T14 v Europe, it's clear which is being canned.

Is it in danger of being canned? Or is it just a couple of fellas whining on a ruby site?

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:47 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:37 am

There's very little chance of Saracens getting relegated without a 70 point reduction penalty, same for all the top half teams. The relegation battle is usually the same two or three teams punching it out every year.

I wonder how many imports the URC teams have in comparison to the likes of Sale?

eg, around half the Tigers' senior squad are imports.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester ... rent_squad

Leicester would have been relegated if Saracens didn't have those points deducted. Bath would be relegated this year normally. Northampton and Harlequins have been relegated in the last decade.

There are outliers, sure, but I looked up the last ten years league tables before I posted and it has been the same teams, for the most part, in the bottom positions.

The URC has two or three teams who struggle, but at the moment there are 6 points between second and eight for the play off home and away spots which will be decided next weekend.

The teams at the bottom of the GP have won 7, 6, 5 and 4 games this season. The bottom sides in the URC have won 7, 5, 2, 1 - not a huge discrepancy.

I'm not too bothered about any difference between the leagues, but I'm not the one making claims of superiority or competitiveness.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:47 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:37 am

There's very little chance of Saracens getting relegated without a 70 point reduction penalty, same for all the top half teams. The relegation battle is usually the same two or three teams punching it out every year.

I wonder how many imports the URC teams have in comparison to the likes of Sale?

eg, around half the Tigers' senior squad are imports.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester ... rent_squad

Leicester would have been relegated if Saracens didn't have those points deducted. Bath would be relegated this year normally. Northampton and Harlequins have been relegated in the last decade.

I hate to break this to you but 2005 and 2007 were not in the last decade.

The last decade has been London Welsh x2, London Irish x2, Newcastle x2, Worcester and Bristol.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:55 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:19 pm It is what it is but...

The Heineken Cup final is in 13 days.

In 6 days La Rochelle have to play Stade Francais in a must win T14 league game to try and make the playoffs.

I can seriously see the English and French teams looking outside the HEC for other opportunities. It's just not an equitable competition.

Never has been. It's the "price" that is paid for having a competitive domestic comp. The pay off is exactly that: T14 and GP are far bigger commercial draws. URC, like all its predecessors, is sh*te watched by one man and his sheep. The Irish have found a formula that works for them in that a sh*t domestic comp does not undermine their national prospects.

Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.

+1

Up until the third to last round, penultimate round for some teams, there were 9 out of 13 teams in with a shot of the playoffs. Taking out the top 2 that was 7 teams competing for 3rd and 4th.

Every league has a top and a bottom, but I think the vast majority of the Prem are very close and I definitely wouldn't sacrifice that for slightly better performance in Europe for a minority of teams. If nothing else European fixtures only make up a fraction of the season, as a punter I want as many competitive league games as possible.

petej wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:01 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:44 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am
Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.

The derbies can be tight, edgy affairs, but the quality of entertainment is roughly the same across the GP and URC.

The Top 14 used to be dire, and to be honest I haven't seen a lot of it for a couple of years now.

The GP is better entertainment because it is far more random. As a flatter league teams can go from shit to good and vice versa very quickly (no chance of Leinster ever finishing bottom of the erc).

The Irish teams have very stable playing squads which helps compared to English and French teams and Leinster are essentially the URC's Bayern Munich or Real Madrid. South Africans should be cautious about getting in the URC as Ireland are expert poachers so having your players in that shop window might not be a plus. If the irfu want the URC to succeed they really actually need to get together with the other unions in it and help them get into shape (the wru in particular need lessons).

A few weeks ago there was 4 point separating 2nd and 9th, with a couple of Welsh teams outside of that having a couple of extra games in hand.

Your post goes downhill rapidly from there.


The GP has increased its entertainment value massively over the last couple of years, and the European Cup is slowly being gutted and turned into an increasingly irrelevant competition. I'm more than happy about the former and bitterly disappointed in the latter.

It doesn't help the European Cup's status as the premier competition when the format of the group stages is so terrible.

petej wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:01 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:44 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am
Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.

The derbies can be tight, edgy affairs, but the quality of entertainment is roughly the same across the GP and URC.

The Top 14 used to be dire, and to be honest I haven't seen a lot of it for a couple of years now.

The GP is better entertainment because it is far more random. As a flatter league teams can go from shit to good and vice versa very quickly (no chance of Leinster ever finishing bottom of the erc).

The Irish teams have very stable playing squads which helps compared to English and French teams and Leinster are essentially the URC's Bayern Munich or Real Madrid. South Africans should be cautious about getting in the URC as Ireland are expert poachers so having your players in that shop window might not be a plus. If the irfu want the URC to succeed they really actually need to get together with the other unions in it and help them get into shape (the wru in particular need lessons).

Expert poachers?

We have one non Irish qualified player in our squad. We have two more who qualified via the old residency rules. That's it. We won't be bothered doing the same with the 5 year rule.

I mean you've picked the most homegrown squad in Europe and accused us of poaching.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:05 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:47 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:37 am

There's very little chance of Saracens getting relegated without a 70 point reduction penalty, same for all the top half teams. The relegation battle is usually the same two or three teams punching it out every year.

I wonder how many imports the URC teams have in comparison to the likes of Sale?

eg, around half the Tigers' senior squad are imports.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester ... rent_squad

Leicester would have been relegated if Saracens didn't have those points deducted. Bath would be relegated this year normally. Northampton and Harlequins have been relegated in the last decade.

There are outliers, sure, but I looked up the last ten years league tables before I posted and it has been the same teams, for the most part, in the bottom positions.

The URC has two or three teams who struggle, but at the moment there are 6 points between second and eight for the play off home and away spots which will be decided next weekend.

The teams at the bottom of the GP have won 7, 6, 5 and 4 games this season. The bottom sides in the URC have won 7, 5, 2, 1 - not a huge discrepancy.

I'm not too bothered about any difference between the leagues, but I'm not the one making claims of superiority or competitiveness.

If you dismiss Bath, Leicester, Northampton, Bristol and Harlequins all getting relegated (actually or theoretically) as outliers then it's difficult to even consider challenging you on what you do or don't consider a 'discrepancy'.

English chap here, and please less of the generalisation and specific names. Sounds like tribal planet rugby.

[quote=Tichtheid post_id=206890 time=1652690689 user_id=632]
[quote="Paddington Bear" post_id=206887 time=1652690354 user_id=270]
[quote="Torquemada 1420" post_id=206803 time=1652633725 user_id=426]


Never has been. It's the "price" that is paid for having a competitive domestic comp. The pay off is exactly that: T14 and GP are far bigger commercial draws. URC, like all its predecessors, is sh*te watched by one man and his sheep. The Irish have found a formula that works for them in that a sh*t domestic comp does not undermine their national prospects.
[/quote]
Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.
[/quote]



The derbies can be tight, edgy affairs, but the quality of entertainment is roughly the same across the GP and URC.

The Top 14 used to be dire, and to be honest I haven't seen a lot of it for a couple of years now.
[/quote]

I don't agree. I watch both the GP and watch only Edinburgh and Glasgow games in the URC and can absolutely say without hesitation the GP is more entertaining.

The quality of premiership games these last two years for entertainment value has been really amazing. Glasgow and Edinburgh will have a good game here and there against Ulster and Munster, the SA teams have been quite interesting. But mostly it's against teams without a rivalry edge in a competition that I don't understand how it works. Edinburgh under Blair are a great watch which has made a difference. Glasgow under Wilson are not.

I just find it basically impossible to sit down and watch a non Scottish URC match but happily watch the prem weekly.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:22 pm

Camroc2 wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:11 pm More winning, less whinging, please.

I know you Irish fans live in your little bubble giving each other pats on the back but all the things you've accused the 'spivs' of, Leinster are guilty of the same and far worse. Opaque accounting, bungs for Sexton, tax dodges but worse is the manipulation to game your hand in the HEC.

Toga?

There is no opaque accounting, tax dodging or 'bungs' in Irish rugby. Much as you'd like there to be so you can pretend we get some sort of unfair advantage.

Irish rugby has to live within its means and while there's been some nominal extra cash, disclosed and above board, contributed by outside parties, we get by with very good financial management and contract rules. That next big thing in England might see a bidding war to retain their services. In Ireland that doesn't happen as the provinces aren't allowed outbid each other so player salaries are kept lower and the only way to 'outbid' someone is offer them a full contract if their home province is only offering an academy or development one.

I presume the tax 'dodging' you're referring to is the perfectly above board, declared and legal tax rebate the players get when they retire? Which probably only serves to balance out our higher taxes anyway compared to the UK.

happytramp wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:05 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:57 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am
Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.

I'm in the same camp.

Actually, in regards Europe, it might not even come down solely to the quality. The fact is most real supporters have a greater vested interest in the rivalries in their own league than some occasional, intermittent, cross continent stuff. Push came so shove of T14 v Europe, it's clear which is being canned.

Is it in danger of being canned? Or is it just a couple of fellas whining on a ruby site?

I meant in terms of the clubs' commitment to the comps.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:54 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:05 am

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 9:47 am



Leicester would have been relegated if Saracens didn't have those points deducted. Bath would be relegated this year normally. Northampton and Harlequins have been relegated in the last decade.

There are outliers, sure, but I looked up the last ten years league tables before I posted and it has been the same teams, for the most part, in the bottom positions.

The URC has two or three teams who struggle, but at the moment there are 6 points between second and eight for the play off home and away spots which will be decided next weekend.

The teams at the bottom of the GP have won 7, 6, 5 and 4 games this season. The bottom sides in the URC have won 7, 5, 2, 1 - not a huge discrepancy.

I'm not too bothered about any difference between the leagues, but I'm not the one making claims of superiority or competitiveness.

If you dismiss Bath, Leicester, Northampton, Bristol and Harlequins all getting relegated (actually or theoretically) as outliers then it's difficult to even consider challenging you on what you do or don't consider a 'discrepancy'.

Have a look through the tables of the last ten years, it's Wuss, Falcons, +1 for the most part who are duking it out, often it was London Welsh or Bristol who were up and down between the Premier and the Championship, 'Welsh went one road, Bristol got heaps of cash, players and a new coach
Irish went down a couple of times before they got investment.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:57 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:44 am
The derbies can be tight, edgy affairs, but the quality of entertainment is roughly the same across the GP and URC.

The Top 14 used to be dire, and to be honest I haven't seen a lot of it for a couple of years now.

I don't agree. I watch both the GP and watch only Edinburgh and Glasgow games in the URC and can absolutely say without hesitation the GP is more entertaining.

The quality of premiership games these last two years for entertainment value has been really amazing. Glasgow and Edinburgh will have a good game here and there against Ulster and Munster, the SA teams have been quite interesting. But mostly it's against teams without a rivalry edge in a competition that I don't understand how it works. Edinburgh under Blair are a great watch which has made a difference. Glasgow under Wilson are not.

I just find it basically impossible to sit down and watch a non Scottish URC match but happily watch the prem weekly.

Well, I guess it's subjective, but I really enjoy the Irish derbies, Connacht get right up for the Leinster games and usually do well in them and I have a soft spot for Ulster due to family ties, the atmosphere at the Kingspan is brilliant.
The Welsh derbies have been really good in the past, the Cardiff Dragons game at the weekend was dire, though.

The addition of the South African teams has been brilliant, I really enjoy the competition as it is now. The only reason I don't watch more is solely down to time, with all eight games being televised I just can't watch that and the GP over one weekend.

I do enjoy the GP, it's a great competition.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:57 am
I don't agree. I watch both the GP and watch only Edinburgh and Glasgow games in the URC and can absolutely say without hesitation the GP is more entertaining.

The quality of premiership games these last two years for entertainment value has been really amazing. Glasgow and Edinburgh will have a good game here and there against Ulster and Munster, the SA teams have been quite interesting. But mostly it's against teams without a rivalry edge in a competition that I don't understand how it works. Edinburgh under Blair are a great watch which has made a difference. Glasgow under Wilson are not.

I just find it basically impossible to sit down and watch a non Scottish URC match but happily watch the prem weekly.

I watch a fair bit of the URC because I have a season pass and its my only sports subscription and I'm happy enough watching non-Edinburgh games as a neutral. I think the style of play in general has become more expansive over the last season or two. The main issue I have is that the games in SA aren't that great for atmosphere and the Welsh teams are a bit rubbish.

robmatic wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 11:19 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:57 am
I don't agree. I watch both the GP and watch only Edinburgh and Glasgow games in the URC and can absolutely say without hesitation the GP is more entertaining.

The quality of premiership games these last two years for entertainment value has been really amazing. Glasgow and Edinburgh will have a good game here and there against Ulster and Munster, the SA teams have been quite interesting. But mostly it's against teams without a rivalry edge in a competition that I don't understand how it works. Edinburgh under Blair are a great watch which has made a difference. Glasgow under Wilson are not.

I just find it basically impossible to sit down and watch a non Scottish URC match but happily watch the prem weekly.

I watch a fair bit of the URC because I have a season pass and its my only sports subscription and I'm happy enough watching non-Edinburgh games as a neutral. I think the style of play in general has become more expansive over the last season or two. The main issue I have is that the games in SA aren't that great for atmosphere and the Welsh teams are a bit rubbish.

The SA teams have the same problem we had with Murrayfield, the stadiums are just too big for the crowds they attract.

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:54 am I mean you've picked the most homegrown squad in Europe and accused us of poaching.

I doubt that's the case now with France only having Willemse in as a regular amongst the poaches (Atonio's likelihood of inclusion is questionable).

As an aside, funny how France improves once it stops poaching and filling its clubs with foreign players.............

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:04 pm

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:54 am I mean you've picked the most homegrown squad in Europe and accused us of poaching.

I doubt that's the case now with France only having Willemse in as a regular amongst the poaches (Atonio's likelihood of inclusion is questionable).

As an aside, funny how France improves once it stops poaching and filling its clubs with foreign players.............

Atonio was number 1 choice during the 6N.

The new breed of French poaches are kids recruited into French clubs' academies so that they can qualify as Jiffs. PI players for a start, but also Georgian and even Australians and Saffas.

TheFrog wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:10 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:04 pm

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:54 am I mean you've picked the most homegrown squad in Europe and accused us of poaching.

I doubt that's the case now with France only having Willemse in as a regular amongst the poaches (Atonio's likelihood of inclusion is questionable).

As an aside, funny how France improves once it stops poaching and filling its clubs with foreign players.............

Atonio was number 1 choice during the 6N.

The new breed of French poaches are kids recruited into French clubs' academies so that they can qualify as Jiffs. PI players for a start, but also Georgian and even Australians and Saffas.

That's not what has been feeding through into the U20s though. Does not alter the fact that France fielded the fewest poaches.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:04 pm

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:54 am I mean you've picked the most homegrown squad in Europe and accused us of poaching.

I doubt that's the case now with France only having Willemse in as a regular amongst the poaches (Atonio's likelihood of inclusion is questionable).

As an aside, funny how France improves once it stops poaching and filling its clubs with foreign players.............

He misunderstood and thought the reference was to Leinster, not Ireland (Aki, Gibson-Park, Lowe, Lowry, Herring - plus guys like Stander and Kleyn recently).

I must stress I do not give two shits about whether they're poaches or not really, everyone does it.

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:10 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:55 pm

Never has been. It's the "price" that is paid for having a competitive domestic comp. The pay off is exactly that: T14 and GP are far bigger commercial draws. URC, like all its predecessors, is sh*te watched by one man and his sheep. The Irish have found a formula that works for them in that a sh*t domestic comp does not undermine their national prospects.

Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.

+1

Up until the third to last round, penultimate round for some teams, there were 9 out of 13 teams in with a shot of the playoffs. Taking out the top 2 that was 7 teams competing for 3rd and 4th.

Every league has a top and a bottom, but I think the vast majority of the Prem are very close and I definitely wouldn't sacrifice that for slightly better performance in Europe for a minority of teams. If nothing else European fixtures only make up a fraction of the season, as a punter I want as many competitive league games as possible.

The URC was closer than that this year.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:24 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:04 pm

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:54 am I mean you've picked the most homegrown squad in Europe and accused us of poaching.

I doubt that's the case now with France only having Willemse in as a regular amongst the poaches (Atonio's likelihood of inclusion is questionable).

As an aside, funny how France improves once it stops poaching and filling its clubs with foreign players.............

He misunderstood and thought the reference was to Leinster, not Ireland (Aki, Gibson-Park, Lowe, Lowry, Herring - plus guys like Stander and Kleyn recently).

I must stress I do not give two shits about whether they're poaches or not really, everyone does it.

Exactly.

It's a by-product of the game going professional, no biggie.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:28 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:24 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:04 pm
I doubt that's the case now with France only having Willemse in as a regular amongst the poaches (Atonio's likelihood of inclusion is questionable).

As an aside, funny how France improves once it stops poaching and filling its clubs with foreign players.............

He misunderstood and thought the reference was to Leinster, not Ireland (Aki, Gibson-Park, Lowe, Lowry, Herring - plus guys like Stander and Kleyn recently).

I must stress I do not give two shits about whether they're poaches or not really, everyone does it.

Exactly.

It's a by-product of the game going professional, no biggie.

The only way I'd care about it if there was a genuine concerted effort by any major nation to rob another nation of a set of players, OR if a magical future appears where it's genuinely reasonable to have players who play in one hemisphere turn out for their "natural" country without any issues regarding team familiarity, competition differences, time zones, travel, financial concerns, etc

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:24 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:04 pm

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:54 am I mean you've picked the most homegrown squad in Europe and accused us of poaching.

I doubt that's the case now with France only having Willemse in as a regular amongst the poaches (Atonio's likelihood of inclusion is questionable).

As an aside, funny how France improves once it stops poaching and filling its clubs with foreign players.............

He misunderstood and thought the reference was to Leinster, not Ireland (Aki, Gibson-Park, Lowe, Lowry, Herring - plus guys like Stander and Kleyn recently).

I must stress I do not give two shits about whether they're poaches or not really, everyone does it.

Lowry and Herring?

But yes, I did think miss the move to talking about Ireland. Same comment applies though, we're not going to bother with the 5 year residency. Last person to qualify was Lowe via that route and he was signed 5 years ago.

Number of NIQs in Ireland have dropped off in recent years, even down from when we reduced it 5/6 years ago.

happytramp wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:27 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:10 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 am
Yep controversially I'd much rather have an exciting and competitive domestic league than a chance that a couple of our bigger clubs might dominate Europe. I can sit down after work any Friday night through the winter and be pretty confident I'm about to watch a half decent game of rugby, not convinced you can say the same about the URC.

+1

Up until the third to last round, penultimate round for some teams, there were 9 out of 13 teams in with a shot of the playoffs. Taking out the top 2 that was 7 teams competing for 3rd and 4th.

Every league has a top and a bottom, but I think the vast majority of the Prem are very close and I definitely wouldn't sacrifice that for slightly better performance in Europe for a minority of teams. If nothing else European fixtures only make up a fraction of the season, as a punter I want as many competitive league games as possible.

The URC was closer than that this year.

I wasn't responding to the bit about the URC, hence I didn't bold it.

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:35 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:24 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:04 pm
I doubt that's the case now with France only having Willemse in as a regular amongst the poaches (Atonio's likelihood of inclusion is questionable).

As an aside, funny how France improves once it stops poaching and filling its clubs with foreign players.............

He misunderstood and thought the reference was to Leinster, not Ireland (Aki, Gibson-Park, Lowe, Lowry, Herring - plus guys like Stander and Kleyn recently).

I must stress I do not give two shits about whether they're poaches or not really, everyone does it.

Lowry and Herring?

But yes, I did think miss the move to talking about Ireland. Same comment applies though, we're not going to bother with the 5 year residency. Last person to qualify was Lowe via that route and he was signed 5 years ago.

Number of NIQs in Ireland have dropped off in recent years, even down from when we reduced it 5/6 years ago.

No idea why I typed Lowry. I watched Bad Boys again recently, maybe that's it. I meant Mack Hansen.

Herring's been in the system for a while but he's a bona fide Saffer. Totally fine to split hairs there given he was in Ireland at a reasonably young age (though we had him first!).

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:28 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:24 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:04 pm
I doubt that's the case now with France only having Willemse in as a regular amongst the poaches (Atonio's likelihood of inclusion is questionable).

As an aside, funny how France improves once it stops poaching and filling its clubs with foreign players.............

He misunderstood and thought the reference was to Leinster, not Ireland (Aki, Gibson-Park, Lowe, Lowry, Herring - plus guys like Stander and Kleyn recently).

I must stress I do not give two shits about whether they're poaches or not really, everyone does it.

Exactly.

It's a by-product of the game going professional, no biggie.

TBH it's pretty much always been the way, and most international teams will have had players who were only tangentially linked to the country at best. If you look at the early years of the Lions there were guys who'd played for both the Lions and the opposition at some point, and there was a fair bit of cross-over in the home nations due to the proximity of the countries and the mixed ancestry of so many of the players. Admittedly the formalisation of the practise through residency and grandfather clauses is relatively new.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:44 pm

CM11 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:35 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 12:24 pm

He misunderstood and thought the reference was to Leinster, not Ireland (Aki, Gibson-Park, Lowe, Lowry, Herring - plus guys like Stander and Kleyn recently).

I must stress I do not give two shits about whether they're poaches or not really, everyone does it.

Lowry and Herring?

But yes, I did think miss the move to talking about Ireland. Same comment applies though, we're not going to bother with the 5 year residency. Last person to qualify was Lowe via that route and he was signed 5 years ago.

Number of NIQs in Ireland have dropped off in recent years, even down from when we reduced it 5/6 years ago.

No idea why I typed Lowry. I watched Bad Boys again recently, maybe that's it. I meant Mack Hansen.

Herring's been in the system for a while but he's a bona fide Saffer. Totally fine to split hairs there given he was in Ireland at a reasonably young age (though we had him first!).

Hansen's mother is from Cork, so not really a poach in the same manner; he was eligible to play for Ireland from the day he was born.