Dinghy arrivals / asylum seekers / gimmegrants

[Ymx]

Hmmm

[Tichtheid]

Using the term virtue signalling has become a virtue signal in itself - it's used to show a self-identified superiority over the intended target, it quite sad that some are still using it.

The way I saw it described about ten years ago was

1. Bill is saying something right on
2. Virtue signalling is saying something right on to make yourself look good.
3. Therefore Bill is virtue signalling.

There is no logical justification to 3 based on 1 and 2. If there was then voicing an opinion on absolutely anything is virtue signalling when you think it's the best solution to a particular problem or circumstance.

Using the term virtue signalling is not a pithy put down, it's just lazy and makes you look stupid, same with PC or Woke.

[Ymx]

I think that it annoys certain people makes it stick.

I see it as an appropriate label for many.

Here it is described better

the public expression of opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or social conscience or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

Virtue signaling is the expression of a conspicuous, self-righteous moral viewpoint with the intent of communicating good character.

the act or practice of conspicuously displaying one's awareness of and attentiveness to political issues, matters of social and racial justice, etc., especially instead of taking effective action.

[Tichtheid]

I think that it annoys certain people makes it stick.

I see it as an appropriate label for many.

Here it is described better

the public expression of opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or social conscience or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

Virtue signaling is the expression of a conspicuous, self-righteous moral viewpoint with the intent of communicating good character.

the act or practice of conspicuously displaying one's awareness of and attentiveness to political issues, matters of social and racial justice, etc., especially instead of taking effective action.

Which are all variations of

2. Virtue signalling is saying something right on to make yourself look good.

As I say, the term itself is used to display a self-rewarded superiority, that much must be obvious.

[TB63]

So, how many of the 500, single males, who are free to travel off and on the barge, will be left by the end of the week...

[Simian]

So, how many of the 500, single males, who are free to travel off and on the barge, will be left by the end of the week...

I’ve heard YMX has offered them all rooms round his place

[Ymx]

So, how many of the 500, single males, who are free to travel off and on the barge, will be left by the end of the week...

I’m not sure I follow. There was a tranche of arrivals yesterday which was 400 ish. And a day a fortnight ago which totalled 500.

Whilst we have legal right to deport these arrivals, there is no country to do it to. I actually don’t quite see why it can’t be France. That’s normally how it works when someone is refused entry at immigration ?? Returned to sender??

But on the barge, this is not exactly future proofing anything.

What we really need is for those virtue signallers to front up like Gary Linekar did and house these people. To a rapturous applause, of course.

[Tichtheid]

Something I should have added about the term virtue signalling; if you re using specific terminology to deliberately cause disruption on an Internet forum, that is the very definition of trolling, and shows you are not someone who is to be taken seriously at all.

[Ymx]

Something I should have added about the term virtue signalling; if you re using specific terminology to deliberately cause disruption on an Internet forum, that is the very definition of trolling, and shows you are not someone who is to be taken seriously at all.

You appear be doing your best to be invalidate.

The names I’ve been called by those back patting virtue signallers, makes it quite ironic.

I award you

two virtue signalling points for your contribution today

[Tichtheid]

Something I should have added about the term virtue signalling; if you re using specific terminology to deliberately cause disruption on an Internet forum, that is the very definition of trolling, and shows you are not someone who is to be taken seriously at all.

You appear be doing your best to be invalidate.

The names I’ve been called by those back patting virtue signallers, makes it quite ironic.

I award you

two virtue signalling points for your contribution today

Irony is a descendant of an immigrant who then becomes an immigrant complaining about immigrants.

[Ymx]

Correction it was 260 not 400, but still its over half the barge capacity.

[Ymx]

Something I should have added about the term virtue signalling; if you re using specific terminology to deliberately cause disruption on an Internet forum, that is the very definition of trolling, and shows you are not someone who is to be taken seriously at all.

You appear be doing your best to be invalidate.

The names I’ve been called by those back patting virtue signallers, makes it quite ironic.

I award you

two virtue signalling points for your contribution today

Irony is a descendant of an immigrant who then becomes an immigrant complaining about immigrants.

There we go, another attempt to invalidate opinion.

I’ve not complained about immigrants. Legal controlled immigration is a must. But don’t let that get in the way of your self applause.

[Tichtheid]

You appear be doing your best to be invalidate.

The names I’ve been called by those back patting virtue signallers, makes it quite ironic.

I award you

two virtue signalling points for your contribution today

Irony is a descendant of an immigrant who then becomes an immigrant complaining about immigrants.

There we go, another attempt to invalidate opinion.

I’ve not complained about immigrants. Legal controlled immigration is a must. But don’t let that get in the way of your self applause.

This has happened before, you use derogatory language and when challenged on it you call victimhood and whine like a wounded puppy.

I've nothing against someone having an opposing opinion, but if they are not prepared to talk it out and start using terminology to deliberately inflame the debate then you re not to be taken seriously, it's just trolling.

[SaintK]

Irony is a descendant of an immigrant who then becomes an immigrant complaining about immigrants.

There we go, another attempt to invalidate opinion.

I’ve not complained about immigrants. Legal controlled immigration is a must. But don’t let that get in the way of your self applause.

This has happened before, you use derogatory language and when challenged on it you call victimhood and whine like a wounded puppy.

I've nothing against someone having an opposing opinion, but if they are not prepared to talk it out and start using terminology to deliberately inflame the debate then you re not to be taken seriously, it's just trolling.

Bit of an edgelord is Ymx!

[Ymx]

Irony is a descendant of an immigrant who then becomes an immigrant complaining about immigrants.

There we go, another attempt to invalidate opinion.

I’ve not complained about immigrants. Legal controlled immigration is a must. But don’t let that get in the way of your self applause.

This has happened before, you use derogatory language and when challenged on it you call victimhood and whine like a wounded puppy.

I've nothing against someone having an opposing opinion, but if they are not prepared to talk it out and start using terminology to deliberately inflame the debate then you re not to be taken seriously, it's just trolling.

How is correcting your mistakes / assumptions whining like a wounded puppy? Which I’d add you fail to respond to.

Amazing leap of logic.

[Ymx]

If any howl out rhetoric virtuously to a rapturous applause, I will call it as it is. In the above case, the tweeter did.

[Tichtheid]

There we go, another attempt to invalidate opinion.

I’ve not complained about immigrants. Legal controlled immigration is a must. But don’t let that get in the way of your self applause.

This has happened before, you use derogatory language and when challenged on it you call victimhood and whine like a wounded puppy.

I've nothing against someone having an opposing opinion, but if they are not prepared to talk it out and start using terminology to deliberately inflame the debate then you re not to be taken seriously, it's just trolling.

How is correcting your mistakes / assumptions whining like a wounded puppy? Which I’d add you fail to respond to.

Amazing leap of logic.

The whining is the "help help I'm being cancelled" pleas after deliberately trolling

To my mind there is an incongruity in someone in your situation complaining about immigration. "Legality" in immigration is matter of where someone is born but I think it's looking through the wrong end of the telescope if you are concentrating on the people themselves, btw from The Refugee Council

90% of those who crossed the channel in the year to March 2023 claimed asylum in the UK, but only 504 (1%) people had received a decision by the end of March 2023. Of those who did receive a decision, 305 (61%) were grants of refugee status or other leave.

[I like neeps]

It is a bit bizarre to suggest that you can't want an increase in number of asylum seekers because you won't have someone in your house.

If people have to take such drastic, reactive measures to show they believe in something then very few people would be allowed to believe in anything. Which tbf is the point ymx and the right wing edge lord accounts he like to post want people to reach.

Tell us ymx your beliefs and associated actions you take to show how genuine they are. I'm sure you will, as being a virtue signaller is so awful.

[Ymx]

Perhaps we disagree on the fundamental point that a country should have rights to control its border. This exercise of control is essential.

I’m an advocate of regulated immigration.

Student visas, holiday visas, but most importantly skill based visas where skill shortages can be addressed for the better of the country.

Who were you as a poster on PR btw?

[Biffer]

I'd rather we spent the money on processing them much quicker. That way you know who has a legal right to be here as a refugee rather than lumping them all together in one big mass so paranoid loons can present them all as scary.

[Ymx]

https://news.sky.com/story/first-asylum ... e-12935384

The have the story. Though it will be full in a week. And then what?

Breaking

Protesters gathered at Portland Port in Dorset as the first group of asylum seekers were moved into the controversial Bibby Stockholm accommodation.

Some of the first group of asylum seekers have boarded the Bibby Stockholm barge with more arrivals expected today, Sky News understands.

Around 50 people were expected to move on to the vessel, docked in Portland Port in Dorset, on Monday after weeks of delays to the plan.

The Bibby Stockholm is one of a number of alternative sites the Home Office is using to end reliance on expensive hotels for asylum seekers, which the government says is costing £6m a day.

It is unclear how many people have moved onto the vessel so far. Charity workers on the ground told Sky News the first arrivals have come from Bristol, Oxford and Torbay but that they had managed to stop nine people coming from accommodation in Bournemouth.

Politics Live: Will UK send migrants to Ascension Island if Rwanda policy fails?

The 222-bedroom barge will ultimately hold 500 single males with numbers expected to increase gradually.

Downing Street suggested Home Office minister Sarah Dines misspoke when she said earlier on Monday that the accommodation could reach full capacity by the end of the week.

Asked about the comment, the prime minister's official spokesman said: "We are looking to (reach) that number over time - I don't think we are aiming to do it by the weekend."

Miss Dines told Sky News the barge "sends a forceful message" that people who cross the Channel will be housed in accommodation that is "proper...but not luxury" - claiming hotels are part of the "pull" factor attracting people to the UK.

[Ymx]

I'd rather we spent the money on processing them much quicker. That way you know who has a legal right to be here as a refugee rather than lumping them all together in one big mass so paranoid loons can present them all as scary.

Process them in France, sure, agreed.

[Sandstorm]

https://news.sky.com/story/first-asylum ... e-12935384

The have the story

Breaking

Protesters gathered at Portland Port in Dorset as the first group of asylum seekers were moved into the controversial Bibby Stockholm accommodation.

Some of the first group of asylum seekers have boarded the Bibby Stockholm barge with more arrivals expected today, Sky News understands.

Around 50 people were expected to move on to the vessel, docked in Portland Port in Dorset, on Monday after weeks of delays to the plan.

The Bibby Stockholm is one of a number of alternative sites the Home Office is using to end reliance on expensive hotels for asylum seekers, which the government says is costing £6m a day.

It is unclear how many people have moved onto the vessel so far. Charity workers on the ground told Sky News the first arrivals have come from Bristol, Oxford and Torbay but that they had managed to stop nine people coming from accommodation in Bournemouth.

Politics Live: Will UK send migrants to Ascension Island if Rwanda policy fails?

The 222-bedroom barge will ultimately hold 500 single males with numbers expected to increase gradually.

Downing Street suggested Home Office minister Sarah Dines misspoke when she said earlier on Monday that the accommodation could reach full capacity by the end of the week.

Asked about the comment, the prime minister's official spokesman said: "We are looking to (reach) that number over time - I don't think we are aiming to do it by the weekend."

Miss Dines told Sky News the barge "sends a forceful message" that people who cross the Channel will be housed in accommodation that is "proper...but not luxury" - claiming hotels are part of the "pull" factor attracting people to the UK.

My mate has 8 restaurants in Dorset, it's the middle of the Holiday Season and there are thousands of tourists everywhere. However he can only open 5 of his businesses each day because he can't get staff! Brits are too fucking lazy to even turn up for phone interviews.

Dorset needs immigrants. Fucking NIMBYs

[Biffer]

I'd rather we spent the money on processing them much quicker. That way you know who has a legal right to be here as a refugee rather than lumping them all together in one big mass so paranoid loons can present them all as scary.

Process them in France, sure, agreed.

Doesn't matter where they're processed so long as they are. That's what gives you grounds to remove them.

[Ymx]

I'd rather we spent the money on processing them much quicker. That way you know who has a legal right to be here as a refugee rather than lumping them all together in one big mass so paranoid loons can present them all as scary.

Process them in France, sure, agreed.

Doesn't matter where they're processed so long as they are. That's what gives you grounds to remove them.

Well it does. It’s actually the main point.

If they are being processed elsewhere, then we don’t need to misappropriate precious accommodation, or impact communities.

[Biffer]

Process them in France, sure, agreed.

Doesn't matter where they're processed so long as they are. That's what gives you grounds to remove them.

Well it does. It’s actually the main point.

If they are being processed elsewhere, then we don’t need to misappropriate precious accommodation, or impact communities.

If they're processed quickly, we don't have to put them up for years, impacting communities, accommodation or budgets.

The only reason we're spending so much money on things like this fucking barge is because we're not processing claims. It's deliberate to create headlines in the right wing press and present an 'other' for people to fear.

[I like neeps]

Doesn't matter where they're processed so long as they are. That's what gives you grounds to remove them.

Well it does. It’s actually the main point.

If they are being processed elsewhere, then we don’t need to misappropriate precious accommodation, or impact communities.

If they're processed quickly, we don't have to put them up for years, impacting communities, accommodation or budgets.

The only reason we're spending so much money on things like this fucking barge is because we're not processing claims. It's deliberate to create headlines in the right wing press and present an 'other' for people to fear.

It probably isn't deliberately done to create another to fear. Look at everything the Tories have done for the last 12 years - administratively dreadful. We don't have smart Ministers and the beauracrats have been hollowed out so nothing gets done. I doubt they could set up safe routes and fast processing even if they wanted to (which to be clear, they do not).

[Ymx]

Doesn't matter where they're processed so long as they are. That's what gives you grounds to remove them.

Well it does. It’s actually the main point.

If they are being processed elsewhere, then we don’t need to misappropriate precious accommodation, or impact communities.

If they're processed quickly, we don't have to put them up for years, impacting communities, accommodation or budgets.

The only reason we're spending so much money on things like this fucking barge is because we're not processing claims. It's deliberate to create headlines in the right wing press and present an 'other' for people to fear.

I’m assuming there are claims which need investigating. Evidence which needs creating. Original domicile which needs proving without ID documents. Possible hearings. Then there are the appeals. Lawyers experienced in dragging it out. Those which are not disbarred.

You actually think the processing delays are staged and deliberate by the Tory’s in a deep state kind of way?

[_Os_]

Whilst we have legal right to deport these arrivals, there is no country to do it to. I actually don’t quite see why it can’t be France. That’s normally how it works when someone is refused entry at immigration ?? Returned to sender??

Perhaps we disagree on the fundamental point that a country should have rights to control its border. This exercise of control is essential.

Process them in France, sure, agreed.

One of key failings in the Tory Brexiter-esque mindset is imagining only the UK has sovereignty, only the UK can control its borders etc, only the UK can break rules or make rules etc.

None of these people are French. None of these people have made an asylum claim in France. France is therefore a third country (not the UK and not the country of origin). If you attempt to send these people to France, France could mirror the UK's actions break the rules and send them straight back to the UK (and have a stronger claim to do so, if they made their asylum claims in the UK). France could also retaliate by cutting off policing cooperation. Then what do you do? Keep escalating until there's war?

But on the barge, this is not exactly future proofing anything.

The barge may save about £10 a day per head. It houses 500 people, so £5000 per day may be saved. The asylum backlog is 166k, of this about 50k are in hotels, therefore about 100 barges are needed to maybe save £500k per day. The daily hotel bill is currently £5.6m. Meaning with 101 barges the cost will go from £5.6m to £5.1m.

But there's not going to be 101 barges. Nor is moving from a hotel to a barge doing a lot or saving a lot. What this is, is a media show for people that think "they're living in hotels" actually really means "they're living in luxury at my expense!" (when they're often not paying taxes themselves), the show is to make them think "good, they're now on a prison barge!".

What the Home Office is now doing is cooking the books and withdrawing asylum seeker claims without their consent, estimates are at 6,000 cases wiped from the system. This means they don't have their case decided, don't receive any legal residency status, and aren't deported. They're just removed from the list then presumably become destitute or work illegally somewhere. This is the dumbest "solution" imaginable and will mean 10s of thousands of undocumented people wondering around very soon, that the UK government knows nothing about and are completely off the system. Obviously this will lead to a larger black market economy, which will enabled further illegal migration.

What needs to happen is all the claims are processed in the UK asap. This is the fairest and cheapest solution.

[I like neeps]

https://news.sky.com/story/first-asylum ... e-12935384

The have the story

Breaking

Protesters gathered at Portland Port in Dorset as the first group of asylum seekers were moved into the controversial Bibby Stockholm accommodation.

Some of the first group of asylum seekers have boarded the Bibby Stockholm barge with more arrivals expected today, Sky News understands.

Around 50 people were expected to move on to the vessel, docked in Portland Port in Dorset, on Monday after weeks of delays to the plan.

The Bibby Stockholm is one of a number of alternative sites the Home Office is using to end reliance on expensive hotels for asylum seekers, which the government says is costing £6m a day.

It is unclear how many people have moved onto the vessel so far. Charity workers on the ground told Sky News the first arrivals have come from Bristol, Oxford and Torbay but that they had managed to stop nine people coming from accommodation in Bournemouth.

Politics Live: Will UK send migrants to Ascension Island if Rwanda policy fails?

The 222-bedroom barge will ultimately hold 500 single males with numbers expected to increase gradually.

Downing Street suggested Home Office minister Sarah Dines misspoke when she said earlier on Monday that the accommodation could reach full capacity by the end of the week.

Asked about the comment, the prime minister's official spokesman said: "We are looking to (reach) that number over time - I don't think we are aiming to do it by the weekend."

Miss Dines told Sky News the barge "sends a forceful message" that people who cross the Channel will be housed in accommodation that is "proper...but not luxury" - claiming hotels are part of the "pull" factor attracting people to the UK.

My mate has 8 restaurants in Dorset, it's the middle of the Holiday Season and there are thousands of tourists everywhere. However he can only open 5 of his businesses each day because he can't get staff! Brits are too fucking lazy to even turn up for phone interviews.

Dorset needs immigrants. Fucking NIMBYs

I doubt it is laziness. Living in Dorset is prohibitively expensive as you say "Holiday season" means everything is an Airbnb or second house. And working in a low paid service jobs four months of the year requiring relocation and not finding anywhere to rent that's liveable and not now a holiday home anyway is unappealing.

Maybe immigrants will change that as they could potentially live in a static caravan e.g. the fruit pickers have shown then will and Brits have shown they won't but it's not really a story about British laziness or immigration.

[Biffer]

Well it does. It’s actually the main point.

If they are being processed elsewhere, then we don’t need to misappropriate precious accommodation, or impact communities.

If they're processed quickly, we don't have to put them up for years, impacting communities, accommodation or budgets.

The only reason we're spending so much money on things like this fucking barge is because we're not processing claims. It's deliberate to create headlines in the right wing press and present an 'other' for people to fear.

I’m assuming there are claims which need investigating. Evidence which needs creating. Original domicile which needs proving without ID documents. Possible hearings. Then there are the appeals. Lawyers experienced in dragging it out. Those which are not disbarred.

You actually think the processing delays are staged and deliberate by the Tory’s in a deep state kind of way?

I think it's deliberate negligence. You don't really need to have any organisational ability to just stop doing something. It's convenient for them that it's neglected.

[JM2K6]

Well it does. It’s actually the main point.

If they are being processed elsewhere, then we don’t need to misappropriate precious accommodation, or impact communities.

If they're processed quickly, we don't have to put them up for years, impacting communities, accommodation or budgets.

The only reason we're spending so much money on things like this fucking barge is because we're not processing claims. It's deliberate to create headlines in the right wing press and present an 'other' for people to fear.

I’m assuming there are claims which need investigating. Evidence which needs creating. Original domicile which needs proving without ID documents. Possible hearings. Then there are the appeals. Lawyers experienced in dragging it out. Those which are not disbarred.

You actually think the processing delays are staged and deliberate by the Tory’s in a deep state kind of way?

Are you familiar with the causes of the backlog and the effort the government has put into removing easier ways to claim asylum (including in France, your preferred option?)

It's not conspiracy theory.

[Ymx]

Not far down the road is a very large fruit farm.

In summer there are pickers which come from Poland, etc, live on the site. I’m assuming it’s a seasonal work visa.

https://www.gov.uk/seasonal-worker-visa

This is a positive use of foreign workers. Assume the same may be deployed for sea side towns. Assuming there is temporary accommodation that can be provided by the sponsor place of work.

[petej]

https://news.sky.com/story/first-asylum ... e-12935384

The have the story

Breaking

Protesters gathered at Portland Port in Dorset as the first group of asylum seekers were moved into the controversial Bibby Stockholm accommodation.

Some of the first group of asylum seekers have boarded the Bibby Stockholm barge with more arrivals expected today, Sky News understands.

Around 50 people were expected to move on to the vessel, docked in Portland Port in Dorset, on Monday after weeks of delays to the plan.

The Bibby Stockholm is one of a number of alternative sites the Home Office is using to end reliance on expensive hotels for asylum seekers, which the government says is costing £6m a day.

It is unclear how many people have moved onto the vessel so far. Charity workers on the ground told Sky News the first arrivals have come from Bristol, Oxford and Torbay but that they had managed to stop nine people coming from accommodation in Bournemouth.

Politics Live: Will UK send migrants to Ascension Island if Rwanda policy fails?

The 222-bedroom barge will ultimately hold 500 single males with numbers expected to increase gradually.

Downing Street suggested Home Office minister Sarah Dines misspoke when she said earlier on Monday that the accommodation could reach full capacity by the end of the week.

Asked about the comment, the prime minister's official spokesman said: "We are looking to (reach) that number over time - I don't think we are aiming to do it by the weekend."

Miss Dines told Sky News the barge "sends a forceful message" that people who cross the Channel will be housed in accommodation that is "proper...but not luxury" - claiming hotels are part of the "pull" factor attracting people to the UK.

My mate has 8 restaurants in Dorset, it's the middle of the Holiday Season and there are thousands of tourists everywhere. However he can only open 5 of his businesses each day because he can't get staff! Brits are too fucking lazy to even turn up for phone interviews.

Dorset needs immigrants. Fucking NIMBYs

Dorset is expensive. Probably a lack of families (as well priced out of the area) with children in that age range to be seasonal employees and nobody can afford to move and live there on service industry wages. This sort of stuff is always a bit cake and eat it. Easy to accuse brits of being lazy.

[Biffer]

Not many students on Dorset either which makes summer waiting / bar staff hard to come by.

[Ymx]

Reading the Australian case, which I’ll admit I’ve not read an huge amount about …

They introduced offshore processing, but it only really made a difference when they implemented the turn back policy. Physically intercepting the boats to return them to the place of origin.

Have any European countries successfully implemented a turn back policy?

I note Denmark appears the most advanced in terms of handling.

[_Os_]

Reading the Australian case, which I’ll admit I’ve not read an huge amount about …

They introduced offshore processing, but it only really made a difference when they implemented the turn back policy. Physically intercepting the boats to return them to the place of origin.

If you want low immigration, then copying Australia is dumb. Australia isn't a low migration country.

Australia has net immigration of about 200k a year, UK has only matched those figures on a per capita basis (500k per year) post-Brexit and implementing the "Australian points based immigration system". It was done because an "Australian style immigration system" played well with a certain kind of UK voter, they read things into "people can only come to the UK if they have skills" which weren't true.



Trying to copy Australia's toughness on asylum seekers, is likely entirely pointless whilst the borders and the asylum system are fucked, that'll be true even if Rwanda ever happens (because the max estimates are Rwanda can take 2% of asylum claims). For supporters of all this I suspect it's all a bit besides the point, when the "Australian points based immigration system" they demanded be implemented is producing the highest inward migration into Britain in probably its entire history.

[Sandstorm]

Not many students on Dorset either which makes summer waiting / bar staff hard to come by.

Exactly. Dorset MPs should be welcoming these hard-working immigrants who are willing to serve tea in Wareham!

[derriz]

I'd rather we spent the money on processing them much quicker. That way you know who has a legal right to be here as a refugee rather than lumping them all together in one big mass so paranoid loons can present them all as scary.

Process them in France, sure, agreed.

You cannot legally apply for asylum from outside the UK, dumbo. You think if there was any alternative to risking your life on a flimsy boat, it wouldn't be used?

There's nothing f*cking "uncontrolled" about the asylum process. Besides being in prison, there are no situation a human being in the UK can be in that is less controlled and micromanaged, you have no rights to live, work or do anything while the authorities pick over every detail of your application for months or years and can shuttle you around from centre to centre on a political whim.

[Ymx]

If you want low immigration, then copying Australia is dumb. Australia isn't a low migration country.

Another trying to conflate legal and controlled immigration with illegal entry.

Australias large immigration is almost all of that which it as a country wants and legislates for, as far as I understand.

Speaking of illegal immigration. Why the fuck are there so many bloody illegal swarmists over here??