NPR

LeClerc destroys his teammates car, and takes himself out fir good measure

tcc_dc wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:37 am All right lads....what are the guesses for what happens today? Hamilton in a runaway? Anyone new sneak unto the podium?

You got the Hamilton runaway right. Le Clerc stuffs one up the inside of Vettel in the opening lap and takes both the Ferrari cars out.

Saint wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:23 pm LeClerc destroys his teammates car, and takes himself out fir good measure

Very very daft move.

Can’t see much of a change in this order from here. Will need a breakdown or a pit stop shambles. Time to cut the lawn I think.

Or alternatively fall asleep in the sun with the F1 on the iPad. What did I miss?

ScarfaceClaw wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:28 pm Or alternatively fall asleep in the sun with the F1 on the iPad. What did I miss?

Lando taking 3 places on the last 2 laps!

Lando loves a last lap charge, doesn’t he? Good race in midfield and Max out-performed his car. Le Clerc a muppet and Albon was very poor again unless he had a race long problem with his car.

Saint wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:23 pm LeClerc destroys his teammates car, and takes himself out fir good measure

Imagine spending all that money to compete in Formula 1 only for one of your drivers to take himself and his teammate out on the first corner of the first lap

sturginho wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:16 pm

Saint wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:23 pm LeClerc destroys his teammates car, and takes himself out fir good measure

Imagine spending all that money to compete in Formula 1 only for one of your drivers to take himself and his teammate out on the first corner of the first lap

I remember the reaction of Lauder and Wolff to that happening to their cars, were Ferrari similarly condemnatery about Charles?

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:14 am

sturginho wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:16 pm

Saint wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:23 pm LeClerc destroys his teammates car, and takes himself out fir good measure

Imagine spending all that money to compete in Formula 1 only for one of your drivers to take himself and his teammate out on the first corner of the first lap

I remember the reaction of Lauder and Wolff to that happening to their cars, were Ferrari similarly condemnatery about Charles?

Have they threatened to sack him yet?

Saint wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:33 am

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:14 am

sturginho wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:16 pm

Imagine spending all that money to compete in Formula 1 only for one of your drivers to take himself and his teammate out on the first corner of the first lap

I remember the reaction of Lauder and Wolff to that happening to their cars, were Ferrari similarly condemnatery about Charles?

Have they threatened to sack him yet?

Don’t seem overly vexed at all. Is LeClerc turning out to be a bit of a knob? Not just this. The buggering off to Monaco out of his bubble was unforgivable in my book given what has been achieved getting F1 up and running again. Unbelievable arrogance.

First day of practise at the Hungaroring. Hamilton just edged Bottas in P1, then Vettel topped the timesheets in horrendous conditions in P2 where only 13 drivers even bothered to go out.

Intermittent rain is expected over the weekend, but nothing like this afternoon's monsoon, so the session was fairly pointless


in other news, Vettel looks like a strong favourite to move to the Tracing Point/Aston Martin team for next season, with perez appearing likely to be bought out of his contract to enable that. Both Haas drivers must be feeling very much at risk if that happens.

Speaking of Tracing Point, external camera shots do show that the brake ducts appear to be very similar to the '19 Mercedes, but the internal aero can;t be seen. It has been pointed out though that the FIA actually have seen the docuemntation showing the design process, and apparently were actually in the design studios for most of the development of the car, with Stroll being very aware ofthe challenges that might come up.

And finally, 2 positive tests have come up over the last week. Both they and their close contacts are isolated

So the FIA are to investigate the brake ducts on the pink mercedes. Trojan Horse of course, if there is skullduggery involved there will be other bits of the cat that will fall under the spotlight.

This might seem like petty F1 politics / advantage chasing but it is actually a serious issue. If the rules on F1 teams creating certain elements of their cars independently are bypassed/ ignored, we could finish up with maybe 3 innovators and 7 copiers / test beds / development arms.

Un Pilier wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:45 pm So the FIA are to investigate the brake ducts on the pink mercedes. Trojan Horse of course, if there is skullduggery involved there will be other bits of the cat that will fall under the spotlight.

This might seem like petty F1 politics / advantage chasing but it is actually a serious issue. If the rules on F1 teams creating certain elements of their cars independently are bypassed/ ignored, we could finish up with maybe 3 innovators and 7 copiers / test beds / development arms.

It's enormously unclear on this especially as the rules changed on the brake ducts between 19 and 20.

Bear in mind that we currently do have the situation you've described anyway, as there are very few parts that yiunhave to demonstrate that you've designed from scratch anyway

Review of qualifying again (I've been out all day). Take a now again George Russell. And also take a bow evertone at Williams F1 fir managing to get Latifi into Q2, even.if he was nearly a second behind his team mate.

Red Bull seem to be sensitive to cold conditions, which us an unusual problem, and the Ferrari teams.........

Just before the end if Q interview, Hamilton gets caught on microphone "holy shit"

Saint wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:52 pm

Un Pilier wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:45 pm So the FIA are to investigate the brake ducts on the pink mercedes. Trojan Horse of course, if there is skullduggery involved there will be other bits of the cat that will fall under the spotlight.

This might seem like petty F1 politics / advantage chasing but it is actually a serious issue. If the rules on F1 teams creating certain elements of their cars independently are bypassed/ ignored, we could finish up with maybe 3 innovators and 7 copiers / test beds / development arms.

It's enormously unclear on this especially as the rules changed on the brake ducts between 19 and 20.

Bear in mind that we currently do have the situation you've described anyway, as there are very few parts that yiunhave to demonstrate that you've designed from scratch anyway

And the reason we have so much of the sharing between teams is intentional practice in the name of controlling costs.

They could still arrange a much more equal sharing of money in the sport and stricter limits on the spend if what they wanted was competition, but they do seem to be going for what they have. Teams are always going to push the margins wherever they're placed, just like drivers push track limits

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:04 am

Saint wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:52 pm

Un Pilier wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:45 pm So the FIA are to investigate the brake ducts on the pink mercedes. Trojan Horse of course, if there is skullduggery involved there will be other bits of the cat that will fall under the spotlight.

This might seem like petty F1 politics / advantage chasing but it is actually a serious issue. If the rules on F1 teams creating certain elements of their cars independently are bypassed/ ignored, we could finish up with maybe 3 innovators and 7 copiers / test beds / development arms.

It's enormously unclear on this especially as the rules changed on the brake ducts between 19 and 20.

Bear in mind that we currently do have the situation you've described anyway, as there are very few parts that yiunhave to demonstrate that you've designed from scratch anyway

And the reason we have so much of the sharing between teams is intentional practice in the name of controlling costs.

They could still arrange a much more equal sharing of money in the sport and stricter limits on the spend if what they wanted was competition, but they do seem to be going for what they have. Teams are always going to push the margins wherever they're placed, just like drivers push track limits

That is true, but if a sufficient proportion of each team’s car does not remain different / distinctive then we don’t have F1 anymore ; we have another indycar or F2 - like series. I don’t think we are there yet but are headed that way and I’m not happy about that, despite being a huge fan of F2.

I’m sure you are aware that the reason the brake duct has been highlighted as a focus of the investigation is that it is required to be a self-designed component and is unlikely to be copied accurately merely by photographing and studying it’s external appearance, as RP must claim to have done as a basis for a reversed engineered solution to achieving the optimum air flows.

I remain open minded about the outcome of the investigation but I’m pleased it is being investigated.

I'd have every team doing their own thing, including engine design/build. But the powers that be, and that matter, take a very different view on how to engage the big motor companies to keep as much money in the sport as possible. Granted I'm not too fussed if there's much less money involved and we go back to a much more amateur approach, with some provisos I prefer the current safety standards to what was going on in the 60s

Wet race??

Max “future WC” Verstappen

Bimbowomxn wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:49 pm Max “future WC” Verstappen

I wouldn’t fancy diving into turn 1 in a car they just rebuilt on the grid. Max will......

what a n00b error from Max

and here we go...let's hope for safety and excitement...

damn Bottas just got passed by the Ferraris, Stroll, and Max at the start

Haas with smart moves to start the race....and Gasly is the first one out of the race...

Yawn fest unfortunately

Sandstorm wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:23 pm Yawn fest unfortunately

Yeah...was hoping for a little rain to shake things up. Now, the excitement...when does Bottas catch Max? Do Albon get DQed? Haas top 10? Danny top 6?

Why wasn't Bottas pinged for the false start ?

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:08 pm Why wasn't Bottas pinged for the false start ?

Because he was within the tolerance allowed.

Bimbowomxn wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:16 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:08 pm Why wasn't Bottas pinged for the false start ?

Because he was within the tolerance allowed.

That's seems nuts. Most of the time you need the electronics to tell you there was a jump start; but this one was obvious right away.

Fair enough; his reaction meant that he lost a few places; but the best you can expect after a jump start is a drive thru; & if he'd gotten that, he'd have been at the back of the field.

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:06 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:16 pm

fishfoodie wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:08 pm Why wasn't Bottas pinged for the false start ?

Because he was within the tolerance allowed.

That's seems nuts. Most of the time you need the electronics to tell you there was a jump start; but this one was obvious right away.

Fair enough; his reaction meant that he lost a few places; but the best you can expect after a jump start is a drive thru; & if he'd gotten that, he'd have been at the back of the field.

Well In this case the electronics recorded no false start due to the tolerances allowed.

Surely they'd have recorded a false start and simply decided no advantage was gained? I don't think they specify the tolerances but you could be much more marginal than that and you'd get a sanction if you gained a place or caused a problem for someone else

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:43 pm Surely they'd have recorded a false start and simply decided no advantage was gained? I don't think they specify the tolerances but you could be much more marginal than that and you'd get a sanction if you gained a place or caused a problem for someone else

They specify 2 tenths of a second tolerance.

Bimbowomxn wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:00 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:43 pm Surely they'd have recorded a false start and simply decided no advantage was gained? I don't think they specify the tolerances but you could be much more marginal than that and you'd get a sanction if you gained a place or caused a problem for someone else

They specify 2 tenths of a second tolerance.

Isn't 2 tenths used as the minimum reaction time? If you start moving within 0.2 s of the lights going out your deemed to have begun reacting before the start.

Vettel called someone else (can't remember who) out a few years back for a false start and it turned out their reaction time was exactly 0.2 s.

Still not clear why Bottas wasn't penalised. Any movement before the start should be penalised (5 s, 10 s, or drive-through).

Edit: it was Bottas last time as well... https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13063 ... -was-legal
Maybe he's just exempt from false starts

MoreOrLess wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:09 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:00 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:43 pm Surely they'd have recorded a false start and simply decided no advantage was gained? I don't think they specify the tolerances but you could be much more marginal than that and you'd get a sanction if you gained a place or caused a problem for someone else

They specify 2 tenths of a second tolerance.

Isn't 2 tenths used as the minimum reaction time? If you start moving within 0.2 s of the lights going out your deemed to have begun reacting before the start.

Vettel called someone else (can't remember who) out a few years back for a false start and it turned out their reaction time was exactly 0.2 s.

Still not clear why Bottas wasn't penalised. Any movement before the start should be penalised (5 s, 10 s, or drive-through).

Edit: it was Bottas last time as well... https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13063 ... -was-legal
Maybe he's just exempt from false starts

I thought it was him last time too.

Penalizing him, regardless of him not gaining an advantage, is as much to stop drivers anticipating the lights going out, as it is to stop them trying to cheat an advantage.

Like everything else in F1 rules adjudication, I hate the inconsistency in application

MoreOrLess wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:09 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:00 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:43 pm Surely they'd have recorded a false start and simply decided no advantage was gained? I don't think they specify the tolerances but you could be much more marginal than that and you'd get a sanction if you gained a place or caused a problem for someone else

They specify 2 tenths of a second tolerance.

Isn't 2 tenths used as the minimum reaction time? If you start moving within 0.2 s of the lights going out your deemed to have begun reacting before the start.

Vettel called someone else (can't remember who) out a few years back for a false start and it turned out their reaction time was exactly 0.2 s.

Still not clear why Bottas wasn't penalised. Any movement before the start should be penalised (5 s, 10 s, or drive-through).

Edit: it was Bottas last time as well... https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13063 ... -was-legal
Maybe he's just exempt from false starts

To me it looks the same as Vettel in Japan last season - he moved early, but didn't clear the grid box before the lights went out, so he's ok under the rules


As for the race, absolutely supreme from Hamilton, and the first half was pretty interesting until everyone got themselves more else into what you would expect from a dry race

Saint wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:14 pm

MoreOrLess wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:09 pm

Bimbowomxn wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:00 pm



They specify 2 tenths of a second tolerance.

Isn't 2 tenths used as the minimum reaction time? If you start moving within 0.2 s of the lights going out your deemed to have begun reacting before the start.

Vettel called someone else (can't remember who) out a few years back for a false start and it turned out their reaction time was exactly 0.2 s.

Still not clear why Bottas wasn't penalised. Any movement before the start should be penalised (5 s, 10 s, or drive-through).

Edit: it was Bottas last time as well... https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13063 ... -was-legal
Maybe he's just exempt from false starts

To me it looks the same as Vettel in Japan last season - he moved early, but didn't clear the grid box before the lights went out, so he's ok under the rules


As for the race, absolutely supreme from Hamilton, and the first half was pretty interesting until everyone got themselves more else into what you would expect from a dry race

In Japan the stewards said that although Vettel did move before the lights went out, he stopped again, & wasn't moving before the lights went out.

Sky have a video up showing the start frame by frame; & it clearly shows Bottas rolling before the lights go out, & even better the do a frame by frame to show how long it is between the lights going out, & the start of the movement. Sadly mathematics doesn't seem to a strong point of either driver, as they know their film runs at 25FPS, so 1 Frame is 40ms; & then they show the frame-by-frame that shows that Bottas started rolling at least six frames before the lights went out; as by he said he reacted to the lights on his wheel, & not on the gantry.



I don't know why such a simple rule is so hard to get right ?

Currently article 36.13 of the FIA sporting regulations says simply: "either of the penalties under articles 38.3c) or d) will be imposed for a false start judged using an FIA supplied transponder which must be fitted to the car as specified", with the penalties either a drive-through or 10 seconds stop and go.

From next season the rules will read: "Either of the penalties under articles 38.3c) or d) will be imposed on any driver who is judged to have:

"a) Moved before the start signal is given, such judgement being made by an FIA approved and supplied transponder fitted to each car, or;

"b) Positioned his car on the starting grid in such a way that the transponder is unable to detect the moment at which the car first moved from its grid position after the start signal is given."

He moved before the start signal; end of story.

Hopefully the Stewards will publish their judgement on Bottas. Presumably he stopped before his box limit and the green light : he certainly didn’t gain an advantage. Great drive from Max and his front end mechanics