NPR

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:19 pm So, Johnson vs Cummings: it's like trying to decide whether you'd rather eat dogshit or catshit .

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:19 pm So, Johnson vs Cummings: it's like trying to decide whether you'd rather eat dogshit or catshit .

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:02 am

Rinkals wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:36 am

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:09 am

Yeah, that must be it

Well, 52% of them did vote for Brexit.

Mind you, covid has probably trimmed that demographic, so it may no longer be valid.

If you would like to offer an alternative reason for the sustained popularity of Johnson's Government, I'd be interested to hear it.

They think differently and have different priorities to you?

I've never voted Tory so I'm not defending them, but comments about only imbeciles voting for them is a bit daft really. I'd have thought the majority of Tory voters are pretty well educated.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:19 pm So, Johnson vs Cummings: it's like trying to decide whether you'd rather eat dogshit or catshit .

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:03 am

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:19 pm So, Johnson vs Cummings: it's like trying to decide whether you'd rather eat dogshit or catshit .

To be honest, it's pawn who has outlived his usefulness vs. Cummings' horrendous backers. Whoever wins, we lose.

Gove has been conspicuous in his absence, too.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:13 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:05 pm
PR being Britain’s salvation is always an interesting one. We have a left wing who descend into 15 different factions over what to serve for breakfast, and a right who are pretty effective at coalescing around candidates they don’t love but prefer to the left.
An unbreakable Tory led coalition including various ‘hang the pedos’, ‘farmers’ alliance’ and ‘flat tax now’ parties seems the most likely outcome to me.

The whole point of PR is that it prevents Governments from governing. Governing anywhere other than the uncontentious middle anyway. This means you are never going to get dynamic, innovative politics but it's a price worth paying because politicians are self serving ***ts and until we find a better system, we need to curtail their powers. There's a reason Germany has been so stable for so long.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:03 am

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:19 pm So, Johnson vs Cummings: it's like trying to decide whether you'd rather eat dogshit or catshit .

To be honest, it's pawn who has outlived his usefulness vs. Cummings' horrendous backers. Whoever wins, we lose.

Gove has been conspicuous in his absence, too.

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:32 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:13 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:05 pm
PR being Britain’s salvation is always an interesting one. We have a left wing who descend into 15 different factions over what to serve for breakfast, and a right who are pretty effective at coalescing around candidates they don’t love but prefer to the left.
An unbreakable Tory led coalition including various ‘hang the pedos’, ‘farmers’ alliance’ and ‘flat tax now’ parties seems the most likely outcome to me.

The whole point of PR is that it prevents Governments from governing. Governing anywhere other than the uncontentious middle anyway. This means you are never going to get dynamic, innovative politics but it's a price worth paying because politicians are self serving ***ts and until we find a better system, we need to curtail their powers. There's a reason Germany has been so stable for so long.

PR meant that France couldn't have a strong defence strategy against the Germans in 1940s. France actually had a better army than the Germans. It works well when times are good, but not in bad times. Look at the EU rescue fund (which still hasn't been approved and may never be).

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:17 pm

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:32 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:13 am
The whole point of PR is that it prevents Governments from governing. Governing anywhere other than the uncontentious middle anyway. This means you are never going to get dynamic, innovative politics but it's a price worth paying because politicians are self serving ***ts and until we find a better system, we need to curtail their powers. There's a reason Germany has been so stable for so long.

PR meant that France couldn't have a strong defence strategy against the Germans in 1940s. France actually had a better army than the Germans. It works well when times are good, but not in bad times. Look at the EU rescue fund (which still hasn't been approved and may never be).

That's an incredible take for sure.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:17 pm

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:32 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:13 am
The whole point of PR is that it prevents Governments from governing. Governing anywhere other than the uncontentious middle anyway. This means you are never going to get dynamic, innovative politics but it's a price worth paying because politicians are self serving ***ts and until we find a better system, we need to curtail their powers. There's a reason Germany has been so stable for so long.

PR meant that France couldn't have a strong defence strategy against the Germans in 1940s. France actually had a better army than the Germans. It works well when times are good, but not in bad times. Look at the EU rescue fund (which still hasn't been approved and may never be).

That's an incredible take for sure.

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:24 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:17 pm

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:32 am

PR meant that France couldn't have a strong defence strategy against the Germans in 1940s. France actually had a better army than the Germans. It works well when times are good, but not in bad times. Look at the EU rescue fund (which still hasn't been approved and may never be).

That's an incredible take for sure.

I think you've misunderstood me. I support PR.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:10 am

Oh boy Johnson's fixer Eddie Lister as is corrupt as they come.

Rinkals wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:16 am

Slick wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:02 am

Rinkals wrote: ↑Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:36 am

Well, 52% of them did vote for Brexit.

Mind you, covid has probably trimmed that demographic, so it may no longer be valid.

If you would like to offer an alternative reason for the sustained popularity of Johnson's Government, I'd be interested to hear it.

They think differently and have different priorities to you?

I've never voted Tory so I'm not defending them, but comments about only imbeciles voting for them is a bit daft really. I'd have thought the majority of Tory voters are pretty well educated.

Clearly.

Although honest, moral governance with decent oversight, transparency and effective checks and balances should be a priority for everyone voting to elect officials.

Apparently not.

As regards education, we have a similar situation here in South Africa, where a demonstrably corrupt ANC Government is able to command the loyalty of the majority of the electorate, but, outside of the Private education system and a few flagship Government Schools, education is substandard.

So unless you are claiming that the UK education system is similarly weak, I'm not sure it is relevant.

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:09 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:10 am

Oh boy Johnson's fixer Eddie Lister as is corrupt as they come.

Bet he had a speed dial for Jenrick's phone number!
There were a lot of unanswered questions concerning Lister's activities when he was chief fixer for the blonde slug at County Hall

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:13 pm https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ng-britain

The Tories do better amongst groups with lower educational "achievement" Slick.

A not insignificant part probably is that university degree awards have exploded recently and young people prefer Labour because they haven't bought a house yet. But interesting nevertheless.

It's funny we think the red wall (old homeowners) are working class but grads living in the south east renting aren't.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:40 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:09 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:10 am

Oh boy Johnson's fixer Eddie Lister as is corrupt as they come.

Bet he had a speed dial for Jenrick's phone number!
There were a lot of unanswered questions concerning Lister's activities when he was chief fixer for the blonde slug at County Hall

You guys are very naive if you think “a fixer” is a straight arrow.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:46 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:13 pm https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ng-britain

The Tories do better amongst groups with lower educational "achievement" Slick.

A not insignificant part probably is that university degree awards have exploded recently and young people prefer Labour because they haven't bought a house yet. But interesting nevertheless.

It's funny we think the red wall (old homeowners) are working class but grads living in the south east renting aren't.

That link won't open but I think it's from after the last GE when the Torys obviously had a surge from across the spectrum due to Brexit. Certainly since everyone started going to uni things have changed, but I'd still be surprised if traditionally Tory supporters were not better educated.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:08 am The class divide has essentially died as a voting indicator, no? Home ownership, age and views on Brexit are the big determiners now.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:20 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:08 am The class divide has essentially died as a voting indicator, no? Home ownership, age and views on Brexit are the big determiners now.

Home ownership should determine class more than education now.

Working class people who got on the housing ladder 10+ years ago is in a better financial position than a middle class urban graduate in London who is renting.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:25 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:20 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:08 am The class divide has essentially died as a voting indicator, no? Home ownership, age and views on Brexit are the big determiners now.

Home ownership should determine class more than education now.

Working class people who got on the housing ladder 10+ years ago is in a better financial position than a middle class urban graduate in London who is renting.

I get the point, but not convinced that people like myself and most of my mates have stopped being middle class because we can't get on the housing ladder right now, at least through the traditional definition of class.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:42 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:40 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:09 am
Bet he had a speed dial for Jenrick's phone number!
There were a lot of unanswered questions concerning Lister's activities when he was chief fixer for the blonde slug at County Hall

You guys are very naive if you think “a fixer” is a straight arrow.

Ah I see. The problem is people expecting those in power to not be corrupt, rather than the problem being the people in power being corrupt. Got it.

robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:03 am

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:46 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:13 pm https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ng-britain

The Tories do better amongst groups with lower educational "achievement" Slick.

A not insignificant part probably is that university degree awards have exploded recently and young people prefer Labour because they haven't bought a house yet. But interesting nevertheless.

It's funny we think the red wall (old homeowners) are working class but grads living in the south east renting aren't.

That link won't open but I think it's from after the last GE when the Torys obviously had a surge from across the spectrum due to Brexit. Certainly since everyone started going to uni things have changed, but I'd still be surprised if traditionally Tory supporters were not better educated.

Surely there has been a bit of an inversion though, as Labour are now the party of the urban middle-classes who probably are better educated and working class people aren't voting for them.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:34 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:42 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:40 pm

You guys are very naive if you think “a fixer” is a straight arrow.

Ah I see. The problem is people expecting those in power to not be corrupt, rather than the problem being the people in power being corrupt. Got it.

No, you haven’t. I didn’t say anything you read in my post.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:36 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:34 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:42 am

Ah I see. The problem is people expecting those in power to not be corrupt, rather than the problem being the people in power being corrupt. Got it.

No, you haven’t. I didn’t say anything you read in my post.

No, but what you did do was respond to more corruption by accusing people of being naive.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:37 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:36 am

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:34 am

No, you haven’t. I didn’t say anything you read in my post.

No, but what you did do was respond to more corruption by accusing people of being naive.

So we are in agreement. What now?

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:35 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:03 am

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:46 am

That link won't open but I think it's from after the last GE when the Torys obviously had a surge from across the spectrum due to Brexit. Certainly since everyone started going to uni things have changed, but I'd still be surprised if traditionally Tory supporters were not better educated.

Surely there has been a bit of an inversion though, as Labour are now the party of the urban middle-classes who probably are better educated and working class people aren't voting for them.

In the last election Labour did much better with people holding a degree than the Tories. The Tories however did much much better with the less well educated.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:39 pm So Liz Truss says that the Bumblecunt definately paid for the flat renovation himself; but was a little vague about where the money came from.

Will it even take 24 hrs for this to be shown to be a lie ?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:51 am

Think this explains voting patterns by age fairly effectively. Fwiw young people often have views on welfare, taxation etc that are pretty right wing, it's just that people without capital to conserve won't vote for a party that is seen as the defender of that principle.

robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:44 am

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:35 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:03 am

Surely there has been a bit of an inversion though, as Labour are now the party of the urban middle-classes who probably are better educated and working class people aren't voting for them.

In the last election Labour did much better with people holding a degree than the Tories. The Tories however did much much better with the less well educated.

Yes, university education is an important class marker. So, Labour did better with the middle classes and the Tories did better with the working class.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:41 am I dunno, perhaps you start to realise that the problem is actually corruption and a blasé "of course they're corrupt" response is useless and - if repeated by enough people - actively damaging to a functioning democracy?

Lobby wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:35 am In the last election Labour did much better with people holding a degree than the Tories. The Tories however did much much better with the less well educated.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:52 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:41 am I dunno, perhaps you start to realise that the problem is actually corruption and a blasé "of course they're corrupt" response is useless and - if repeated by enough people - actively damaging to a functioning democracy?

This is true but when was the UK last worthy to be considered a functioning democracy? I mean in the true spirit of the term democracy and not what it represents now. Sandie might have a point here i.e. we long passed any semblance of representation of the people resulting in the people becoming so disinterested that this scale of corruption was inevitable. To me, it seems to be a steady but inexorable decline that could only be arrested by something drastic which is not what Brits do.

"We can't possibly be the monster. We are English you know" [/Peter Cushing. Horror Express.]