NPR

Glorious defeat and taking the shine of a win is our speciality. How can a win be so defeating.

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:32 pm The drop off in control from Russell and White to Jordan and Horne has been massive.

I think that's just the customary 15-20 min drop off.

The drop off from our 1s to 2s is so depressingly massive.

Just utterly depressing. Always so mentally blood weak.

I honestly don't think Sutherland could have been worse. If he got carded it would have been better.

Jock42 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:38 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:32 pm The drop off in control from Russell and White to Jordan and Horne has been massive.

I think that's just the customary 15-20 min drop off.

I don't think it is just that. Horne plays at one speed. White knows when to slow it down. Horne does.but regularly refuses to do so at international level.

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:40 pm I honestly don't think Sutherland could have been worse. If he got carded it would have been better.

Venter takes his place in November.

Dear lord, why can we not control games when we're in the box seat.

Lineout went to pieces once Cherry went off.

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:42 pm Dear lord, why can we not control games when we're in the box seat.

Lineout went to pieces once Cherry went off.

Wasn't great when he was on either. Way too much movement.

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:40 pm I honestly don't think Sutherland could have been worse. If he got carded it would have been better.

Yep, he was appalling.

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:39 pm The drop off from our 1s to 2s is so depressingly massive.

Tighthead and hooker are the big problems in the forwards. We have Venter qualifying in the summer as others have said plus we have 4 or 5 locks better than Gray. Gilcho is a limited but decent player, he’s not done at this level just yet. Back row is fine.

In the backs we have nothing after Finn, I am surprised not to have seen Burke get some time. We are also struggling at 9, but I am confident that Dobbie will solve that soon. Outside of that, I think we are fine. Our second choice 12 was one of the best backs on display, I thought Rowe was good when he came on and we also have the likes of Smith to come back into the reckoning.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 7:21 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:39 pm The drop off from our 1s to 2s is so depressingly massive.

Tighthead and hooker are the big problems in the forwards. We have Venter qualifying in the summer as others have said plus we have 4 or 5 locks better than Gray. Gilcho is a limited but decent player, he’s not done at this level just yet. Back row is fine.

In the backs we have nothing after Finn, I am surprised not to have seen Burke get some time. We are also struggling at 9, but I am confident that Dobbie will solve that soon. Outside of that, I think we are fine. Our second choice 12 was one of the best backs on display, I thought Rowe was good when he came on and we also have the likes of Smith to come back into the reckoning.

I think GGs time should be done now. Ineffective carrier and that last turnover was horrifically bad. 13 carries for 5m is very poor even for tight carries.

Unless there is an injury crisis, taking a near 35 year old GG on the summer tour is borderline negligence from the coaching staff.

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 7:32 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 7:21 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:39 pm The drop off from our 1s to 2s is so depressingly massive.

Tighthead and hooker are the big problems in the forwards. We have Venter qualifying in the summer as others have said plus we have 4 or 5 locks better than Gray. Gilcho is a limited but decent player, he’s not done at this level just yet. Back row is fine.

In the backs we have nothing after Finn, I am surprised not to have seen Burke get some time. We are also struggling at 9, but I am confident that Dobbie will solve that soon. Outside of that, I think we are fine. Our second choice 12 was one of the best backs on display, I thought Rowe was good when he came on and we also have the likes of Smith to come back into the reckoning.

I think GGs time should be done now. Ineffective carrier and that last turnover was horrifically bad. 13 carries for 5m is very poor even for tight carries.

Unless there is an injury crisis, taking a near 35 year old GG on the summer tour is borderline negligence from the coaching staff.

I’m okay with him being in the squad as fifth choice lock. He is, for all his faults, a fantastic lineout operator. I know that might seem like a strange thing to say given how shite our lineout sometimes is but he really is good. I think having someone like that in the squad to help with organisation of the lineout for the match day player pool is worthwhile.

I'm not sure why Gilchrist should be getting all the stick. I'm fine with him being there for his set piece strengths, but I have no idea what Gray is offering. He used to have an incredible engine but that is gone.

robmatic wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 8:24 pm I'm not sure why Gilchrist should be getting all the stick. I'm fine with him being there for his set piece strengths, but I have no idea what Gray is offering. He used to have an incredible engine but that is gone.

Gray is a given that he shouldn't be involved.

We are badly lacking dynamism in the tight 5. Our starting props carry dynamically but the second rows are really ineffective around the park.

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 7:21 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:39 pm The drop off from our 1s to 2s is so depressingly massive.

Tighthead and hooker are the big problems in the forwards. We have Venter qualifying in the summer as others have said plus we have 4 or 5 locks better than Gray. Gilcho is a limited but decent player, he’s not done at this level just yet. Back row is fine.

In the backs we have nothing after Finn, I am surprised not to have seen Burke get some time. We are also struggling at 9, but I am confident that Dobbie will solve that soon. Outside of that, I think we are fine. Our second choice 12 was one of the best backs on display, I thought Rowe was good when he came on and we also have the likes of Smith to come back into the reckoning.

Venter qualifies in February 2026. He signed for Edinburgh 'with immediate effect' on 10th February 2021 so I think the first game he will be eligible for is round 2 of the 2026 Six Nations.

topofthemoon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 9:02 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 7:21 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:39 pm The drop off from our 1s to 2s is so depressingly massive.

Tighthead and hooker are the big problems in the forwards. We have Venter qualifying in the summer as others have said plus we have 4 or 5 locks better than Gray. Gilcho is a limited but decent player, he’s not done at this level just yet. Back row is fine.

In the backs we have nothing after Finn, I am surprised not to have seen Burke get some time. We are also struggling at 9, but I am confident that Dobbie will solve that soon. Outside of that, I think we are fine. Our second choice 12 was one of the best backs on display, I thought Rowe was good when he came on and we also have the likes of Smith to come back into the reckoning.

Venter qualifies in February 2026. He signed for Edinburgh 'with immediate effect' on 10th February 2021 so I think the first game he will be eligible for is round 2 of the 2026 Six Nations.

That’s a bit frustrating.

I presume Josh McKay also qualifies in 26 sometime?

topofthemoon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 9:02 pm
Venter qualifies in February 2026. He signed for Edinburgh 'with immediate effect' on 10th February 2021 so I think the first game he will be eligible for is round 2 of the 2026 Six Nations.

Do you know if he can be named in the squad before the championship or does someone gallantly have to take a knee and drop out to allow him in later on?

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 9:13 pm

I presume Josh McKay also qualifies in 26 sometime?

If memory serves he is later on, the start of the 26/27 season

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 9:15 pm

topofthemoon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 9:02 pm
Venter qualifies in February 2026. He signed for Edinburgh 'with immediate effect' on 10th February 2021 so I think the first game he will be eligible for is round 2 of the 2026 Six Nations.

Do you know if he can be named in the squad before the championship or does someone gallantly have to take a knee and drop out to allow him in later on?

I don't think it's like the WC. It's a week by week basis, no? Also don't think there a limit on training
squad sizes

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 9:13 pm

topofthemoon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 9:02 pm

KingBlairhorn wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 7:21 pm

Tighthead and hooker are the big problems in the forwards. We have Venter qualifying in the summer as others have said plus we have 4 or 5 locks better than Gray. Gilcho is a limited but decent player, he’s not done at this level just yet. Back row is fine.

In the backs we have nothing after Finn, I am surprised not to have seen Burke get some time. We are also struggling at 9, but I am confident that Dobbie will solve that soon. Outside of that, I think we are fine. Our second choice 12 was one of the best backs on display, I thought Rowe was good when he came on and we also have the likes of Smith to come back into the reckoning.

Venter qualifies in February 2026. He signed for Edinburgh 'with immediate effect' on 10th February 2021 so I think the first game he will be eligible for is round 2 of the 2026 Six Nations.

That’s a bit frustrating.

I presume Josh McKay also qualifies in 26 sometime?

Arrived in Glasgow 18th November 2021 so he will be eligible midway through the Northern Hemisphere leg of the Nations Championship.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 9:15 pm

topofthemoon wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 9:02 pm
Venter qualifies in February 2026. He signed for Edinburgh 'with immediate effect' on 10th February 2021 so I think the first game he will be eligible for is round 2 of the 2026 Six Nations.

Do you know if he can be named in the squad before the championship or does someone gallantly have to take a knee and drop out to allow him in later on?

Strauss was included in the training squad for Scotland’s RWC warm-up matches in 2015 but couldn't play in the matches as he didn't qualify until a few days before the first game of the World Cup.

Six Nations' squads are pretty fluid anyway. Scotland frequently make changes between games.

That second half was disgusting.

Townsend out. That shit of a man got a good (better?) man dismissed for his own vanity.

Did his ultimatum not involve him delivering anything as national coach? He’s given us fuck all as the coach of our best generation of professional players. Fuck him.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 12:14 am That second half was disgusting.

Townsend out. That shit of a man got a good (better?) man dismissed for his own vanity.

Did his ultimatum not involve him delivering anything as national coach? He’s given us fuck all as the coach of our best generation of professional players. Fuck him.

This is obviously nonsense.

I agree it’s time for a change but he has given us a hugely enjoyable few years which I think we will look back on very fondly.

I was with a bunch of Welshies tonight and they thought it was hilarious that we think we have had some kind of generational team. We have had a generational back line but a very, very average front 5, and you win nothing with that. Absolutely no one would have done better over the last 5 years or so

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 12:53 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 12:14 am That second half was disgusting.

Townsend out. That shit of a man got a good (better?) man dismissed for his own vanity.

Did his ultimatum not involve him delivering anything as national coach? He’s given us fuck all as the coach of our best generation of professional players. Fuck him.

This is obviously nonsense.

I agree it’s time for a change but he has given us a hugely enjoyable few years which I think we will look back on very fondly.

I was with a bunch of Welshies tonight and they thought it was hilarious that we think we have had some kind of generational team. We have had a generational back line but a very, very average front 5, and you win nothing with that. Absolutely no one would have done better over the last 5 years or so

They don’t get it. We think this team is generational because it’s the best we’ve had in the pro era and we’re scared that we’ll be shite again once it breaks up. I actually think that fear is probably groundless - as I’ve posted before, we have already weathered the retirement (or falling out of contention) of a clutch of ‘generational’ players without even noticing, because they were replaced by players who were just as good, if not better. Russell will obviously be the biggest miss, but Burke will definitely help there.

Having said all that, though, we do have a very average tight five. If we had a better pack we’d be in the mix for the title. But we don’t, so we’re also-rans. Frustrating that when we had no backs, we actually had better forwards, but so it goes.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:20 pm I would have bet my house on this shit happening. The most frustrating fucking team. Their composure is disgraceful.

Yeah. If you had asked me for a prediction, I’d have said that we’d win the game, but that we’d make it way harder than it should have been. We switch off for at least 20 minutes in every single game and it’s killing us. It’s been the case for as long as I can remember now. We’re winning games by building a big enough lead that our headless period doesn’t cost us, but better sides will know it’s going to happen, and pick us off when it does. Ireland in Dublin last year. Matched them for 55 mins or so. Switched off. When we switched back on again the game had gone.

We’re taking games that should be thrashings and turning them into close games. If our backs stop firing, we’ll go into free fall, and that’s why we need someone in charge who can drill better game control into the team. Toony has shown repeatedly he is not that someone.

Best tight 5 of the pro era was probably Dickinson - Ford - Nel - Gray - Gray around 2015 / 2016.

topofthemoon wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 2:10 am Best tight 5 of the pro era was probably Dickinson - Ford - Nel - Gray - Gray around 2015 / 2016.

Yes, that’s fair. But it didn’t quite overlap with the renaissance in the backs.

I’ve just managed to watch the highlights (fucking cyclone in Brisbane, we have no power and my data is intermittent) and I’m seeing a potential silver lining. A resounding win would have cemented Toony’s position, and a win that highlights our weaknesses might actually be better in the long run. Particularly if we get marmalised by the French. (Who will be minus Dupont- small mercies)

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 12:53 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 12:14 am That second half was disgusting.

Townsend out. That shit of a man got a good (better?) man dismissed for his own vanity.

Did his ultimatum not involve him delivering anything as national coach? He’s given us fuck all as the coach of our best generation of professional players. Fuck him.

This is obviously nonsense.

I agree it’s time for a change but he has given us a hugely enjoyable few years which I think we will look back on very fondly.

I was with a bunch of Welshies tonight and they thought it was hilarious that we think we have had some kind of generational team. We have had a generational back line but a very, very average front 5, and you win nothing with that. Absolutely no one would have done better over the last 5 years or so

So the team switching off for periods is because of the front five not being world class?

Yeah, right.

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 12:53 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 12:14 am That second half was disgusting.

Townsend out. That shit of a man got a good (better?) man dismissed for his own vanity.

Did his ultimatum not involve him delivering anything as national coach? He’s given us fuck all as the coach of our best generation of professional players. Fuck him.

This is obviously nonsense.

I agree it’s time for a change but he has given us a hugely enjoyable few years which I think we will look back on very fondly.

I was with a bunch of Welshies tonight and they thought it was hilarious that we think we have had some kind of generational team. We have had a generational back line but a very, very average front 5, and you win nothing with that. Absolutely no one would have done better over the last 5 years or so

This is absolutely a generational team for Scotland. Wales had their generational team which was better than ours. And we'll be slugging it out with at them bottom of the 6n for years to come now.

The lengthy battering of the Welsh line which was eventually held, up highlights the problems we have which also include the lack of leadership. We have hardly any big ball carriers capable of breaking these defences but we have arguable the worlds most potent back line sitting waiting to scythe through the gaps being created out wide. What do we do, we got tight time and time again until the obvious conclusion. If we can see it why are the players on the pitch not doing it.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 9:07 am The lengthy battering of the Welsh line which was eventually held, up highlights the problems we have which also include the lack of leadership. We have hardly any big ball carriers capable of breaking these defences but we have arguable the worlds most potent back line sitting waiting to scythe through the gaps being created out wide. What do we do, we got tight time and time again until the obvious conclusion. If we can see it why are the players on the pitch not doing it.

If you are taking about the one in the 2nd half it was probably the first time I’ve seen some of the players getting really pissed off. BK was going mental calling for the ball (he’d have strolled over) and when it was held up lost his shit, rightly

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 9:14 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 9:07 am The lengthy battering of the Welsh line which was eventually held, up highlights the problems we have which also include the lack of leadership. We have hardly any big ball carriers capable of breaking these defences but we have arguable the worlds most potent back line sitting waiting to scythe through the gaps being created out wide. What do we do, we got tight time and time again until the obvious conclusion. If we can see it why are the players on the pitch not doing it.

If you are taking about the one in the 2nd half it was probably the first time I’ve seen some of the players getting really pissed off. BK was going mental calling for the ball (he’d have strolled over) and when it was held up lost his shit, rightly

This is exactly what we need more of. Yes, our front 5 and in particular our bench options are certainly not generational. But we need more standard drivers on the pitch (perhaps why we miss Tuipulotu so much).

I was actually quite heartened when the camera cut to Finn at the end and he was clearly pissed off. Good to hear Kinghorn perhaps stepping up in that regard too.

C T wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 9:54 am

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 9:14 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 9:07 am The lengthy battering of the Welsh line which was eventually held, up highlights the problems we have which also include the lack of leadership. We have hardly any big ball carriers capable of breaking these defences but we have arguable the worlds most potent back line sitting waiting to scythe through the gaps being created out wide. What do we do, we got tight time and time again until the obvious conclusion. If we can see it why are the players on the pitch not doing it.

If you are taking about the one in the 2nd half it was probably the first time I’ve seen some of the players getting really pissed off. BK was going mental calling for the ball (he’d have strolled over) and when it was held up lost his shit, rightly

This is exactly what we need more of. Yes, our front 5 and in particular our bench options are certainly not generational. But we need more standard drivers on the pitch (perhaps why we miss Tuipulotu so much).

I was actually quite heartened when the camera cut to Finn at the end and he was clearly pissed off. Good to hear Kinghorn perhaps stepping up in that regard too.

Completely agree. Kinghorn has grown so much as a player over the last 2 years and just looks more commanding around the pitch. The leadership is also beginning to come through

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 9:14 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 9:07 am The lengthy battering of the Welsh line which was eventually held, up highlights the problems we have which also include the lack of leadership. We have hardly any big ball carriers capable of breaking these defences but we have arguable the worlds most potent back line sitting waiting to scythe through the gaps being created out wide. What do we do, we got tight time and time again until the obvious conclusion. If we can see it why are the players on the pitch not doing it.

If you are taking about the one in the 2nd half it was probably the first time I’ve seen some of the players getting really pissed off. BK was going mental calling for the ball (he’d have strolled over) and when it was held up lost his shit, rightly

Yep, I was almost kicking my TV. At one point Wales had 12 players within a few yards of the ball and it was the ultimate example of earning the right to go wide.

The half backs take a lot of the blame for me as well as the forwards.

Horne was content to let the forwards pick and go when he should have been screaming for them to leave it. Jordan should also have been giving Horne verbals to get the ball moving.

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 10:38 am The half backs take a lot of the blame for me as well as the forwards.

Horne was content to let the forwards pick and go when he should have been screaming for them to leave it. Jordan should also have been giving Horne verbals to get the ball moving.

Against France last year with 80 minutes on the clock there were 14 Frenchmen within 5m of the final ruck. About 50m of the width of the pitch with only 1 white jersey in it. Being held up there cost us the game, not just a better margin of victory. White and Russell were the half backs at that point.

topofthemoon wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 11:51 am

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Mar 09, 2025 10:38 am The half backs take a lot of the blame for me as well as the forwards.

Horne was content to let the forwards pick and go when he should have been screaming for them to leave it. Jordan should also have been giving Horne verbals to get the ball moving.

Against France last year with 80 minutes on the clock there were 14 Frenchmen within 5m of the final ruck. About 50m of the width of the pitch with only 1 white jersey in it. Being held up there cost us the game, not just a better margin of victory. White and Russell were the half backs at that point.

And they deserved a lot of the blame then too.

I'm afraid the only truly Scottish way forward next weekend is a heroic win away in Paris, only to still finish 4th and hand an average to good England team the title.

Chunk, Fordy, The Rev, Hamilton and Wagga.

For the best of the pro era who didn't play in the same side, I'd swap in Gordon Bulloch and Scott Murray (for Big Jim), maybe Sutherland when he was playing well enough to become a Lion.