Starmergeddon: They Came And Ate Us

[Sandstorm]

Various reports knocking about jof Reform councillors who didn't expect or want to win, some in tears because their well paid jobs will suffer, by elections incoming in a few months

Wait. Reform politicians will give up their day jobs and actually do political work? Nige says “”Hold my beer”

[_Os_]

They've got a chap from Policy Exchange advising them behind the scenes. One of those "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" types ( )

Who? Policy Exchange was founded by Tory MPs, it styles itself centre right, which it is if you think Michael Gove and Matt Goodwin are moderate type people.

Policy formation in the UK usually starts in thinktanks. If they're using the same thinktanks the Tories did, they're going to do the same things and get the same results (everything worse, electoral implosion).

[Hal Jordan]

Jonathan Rutherford. Also co-founder of "Blue Labour"
Some of what he days seems reasonable, but then he's a Morgan McSweemey enthusiast.

[_Os_]

Jonathan Rutherford. Also co-founder of "Blue Labour"
Some of what he days seems reasonable, but then he's a Morgan McSweemey enthusiast.

Googled him, read this bio/interview. This opening quote stood out:

"This is not a progressive era. It’s a tragic era. Things don’t always get better."
https://www.politicshome.com/news/artic ... -mcsweeney

Precisely not the kind of person you want to be running policy. You will defeat populism with <checks notes> the most gloomy grim messaging imaginable? Fuck me.

It's all just beyond anything anyone could make up. It's like they're purposely constructing something absolutely no one wants to vote for. A former Commie who has been an academic his entire life studying gender studies (ffs), who supports Brexit, who invented the Frankenstein "Blue Labour", who thinks it's a brilliant idea to form Labour policy inside Policy Exchange the people that gave fucking Theresa May all her ideas (including "clean Brexit"/leaving the Single Market), and somewhere in the background McSweeney is stroking his chin saying to himself "this is genius ... we just need to agree with the BNP".

It's a tragic era, for sure. Unbelievable.

[tabascoboy]

It's started already, though not the usual reason this time. They were happy to run her as a paper candidate to fill numbers, but to their collective surprise she went an won the seat

A newly elected councillor has resigned her Reform UK membership after she was suspended over a social media post.

Donna Edmunds, who represents Hodnet in Shropshire, was suspended last week after she posted on X about her plans to defect from the party.

The news of her suspension comes days after local elections, with the councillor posting on X she had been suspended "pending an investigation" on Sunday.

When asked for a comment on Edmunds' resignation, Reform UK told the BBC it would not comment further until the completion of its investigation.

She went on to say the party was brought into disrepute when leadership "unceremoniously ditched" Rupert Lowe.

She said his suspension "provoked a wave of resignations" where whole branches resigned as one in protest.

"I called my branch chair to resign my membership, he asked me to stay on as we were struggling to find candidates.

[Hal Jordan]

It's almost as if making money by speaking Common Sense is easier than actually governing and being held to account.

[I like neeps]

Absolutely insane politically to agree a trade deal with India which has a privision Indian nationals don't pay NI for three years. Cant see this getting through the Commons.

[Paddington Bear]

You have to laugh at the timing.

Those same people not paying NI of course have the franchise at the same time as dramatically undercutting Brits. It’ll be a bloodbath across professional services. You get the sense the Indian government can scarcely believe their luck, Farage probably thinks the same

[Hugo]

I can't imagine that there are many parties in history who have sold out their base to the extent that Labour have, post 1997. With friends like that you don't need enemies.

[sockwithaticket]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... gotiations

Jonathan Reynolds, the business and trade secretary, defended the move and told reporters that some people were “getting a little bit carried away as to what this actually means”.

“We have 17 of these agreements with the EU, with South Korea, with the US and a whole range of partners, and what it is about is making sure when people are inter-company transfers between the UK and India – so for our people in India and Indian people in the UK – they don’t simultaneously pay into both social security systems,” he said.

That actually sounds fair enough. Although Labour's comms are, once again, crap.


Of more concern is the paltry amount of economic benefit this deal seems set to provide.

Britain and India have agreed a long-desired trade deal that ministers said would cut tariffs and add £4.8bn a year to the UK economy by 2040.

That is, frankly, fuck all.

[Paddington Bear]

Double contribution agreements work and make sense when you’re talking about similar sized countries with similar levels of wealth and people moving both ways. None of which apply here which makes it utterly bonkers.

Time will tell and no science behind this prediction, but expect inter company transfers from India to replace open market hiring for any position that arises in professional services.

Not sure this deal survives for long. All the best political hit pieces have a ring of truth to them and ‘tax free Indians’ ticks that box.

[_Os_]

Double contribution agreements work and make sense when you’re talking about similar sized countries with similar levels of wealth and people moving both ways. None of which apply here which makes it utterly bonkers.

Time will tell and no science behind this prediction, but expect inter company transfers from India to replace open market hiring for any position that arises in professional services.

Not sure this deal survives for long. All the best political hit pieces have a ring of truth to them and ‘tax free Indians’ ticks that box.

Goes back to the point I made about UK steel. The free market isn't actually good if you cannot compete, it instead means you potentially lose everything.

One of the UK's problems is the often unstated belief the UK can basically compete with anyone and is a world leading superpower. Oddly it often comes out in politicians directly saying "the UK is/will be, world leading in xyz", the statement is always limited to some niche sector of the economy, but there's never any sector where the opposite is claimed so the claim ends up covering everything. The idea there can be something approaching free movement of labour between India and the UK (the deal only covers inter company worker movements, but how many companies in the UK have operations in India and how hard is it to a add a branch in India on paper ... good thing the Indians don't have a reputation for gaming the system) and the UK will somehow come out on top of that, is total madness, but if someone is thinking in the back of their mind the UK is a superpower then it makes more sense.

[Yeeb]

It does seem again as if Labour & their supporters have deemed UK to be too white so have dreamt up another way to penalise natives and pander to some other country. It’s almost as if they are trying to boost support for Reform …

[Biffer]

Temporary Indian workers are those who stay less than 2 years. Prior to this agreement they had to pay full tax in both India and the UK. For the next three years they only pay in India. They still pay income tax.

They're temporary workers and not eligible for free healthcare on the NHS. Or for any benefits.

This isn't a blanket agreement for all Indian workers in the UK, they have to be an employee of the company in India and the exemption only lasts three years.

[Biffer]

It does seem again as if Labour & their supporters have deemed UK to be too white so have dreamt up another way to penalise natives and pander to some other country. It’s almost as if they are trying to boost support for Reform …

Racist shit.

[Yeeb]

It does seem again as if Labour & their supporters have deemed UK to be too white so have dreamt up another way to penalise natives and pander to some other country. It’s almost as if they are trying to boost support for Reform …

Racist shit.

Yeah, it is quite racist to let one group of people off paying tax based upon their colour & country of origin.

[Paddington Bear]

Double contribution agreements work and make sense when you’re talking about similar sized countries with similar levels of wealth and people moving both ways. None of which apply here which makes it utterly bonkers.

Time will tell and no science behind this prediction, but expect inter company transfers from India to replace open market hiring for any position that arises in professional services.

Not sure this deal survives for long. All the best political hit pieces have a ring of truth to them and ‘tax free Indians’ ticks that box.

Goes back to the point I made about UK steel. The free market isn't actually good if you cannot compete, it instead means you potentially lose everything.

One of the UK's problems is the often unstated belief the UK can basically compete with anyone and is a world leading superpower. Oddly it often comes out in politicians directly saying "the UK is/will be, world leading in xyz", the statement is always limited to some niche sector of the economy, but there's never any sector where the opposite is claimed so the claim ends up covering everything. The idea there can be something approaching free movement of labour between India and the UK (the deal only covers inter company worker movements, but how many companies in the UK have operations in India and how hard is it to a add a branch in India on paper ... good thing the Indians don't have a reputation for gaming the system) and the UK will somehow come out on top of that, is total madness, but if someone is thinking in the back of their mind the UK is a superpower then it makes more sense.

I agree with most of this, but when it comes to India Brits of a certain age have a blind spot as to what the country is actually like, there’s significant numbers of people, even at the top of government, who will have no comprehension of how the system is about to be scammed

[Yeeb]

India lobbing a few missles at Pakistan now , wonder how long the UK will avoid getting some of the blame for that & its new trade connections. Be a real shame if conflict escalates there again.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

India lobbing a few missles at Pakistan now , wonder how long the UK will avoid getting some of the blame for that & its new trade connections. Be a real shame if conflict escalates there again.

Our more immediate concern for ourselves would be clashes on the streets between supporters of both communities

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Double contribution agreements work and make sense when you’re talking about similar sized countries with similar levels of wealth and people moving both ways. None of which apply here which makes it utterly bonkers.

Time will tell and no science behind this prediction, but expect inter company transfers from India to replace open market hiring for any position that arises in professional services.

Not sure this deal survives for long. All the best political hit pieces have a ring of truth to them and ‘tax free Indians’ ticks that box.

For anyone who actually wanted to get off their arse and head to India there are some great opportunities in this

[shaggy]

Double contribution agreements work and make sense when you’re talking about similar sized countries with similar levels of wealth and people moving both ways. None of which apply here which makes it utterly bonkers.

Time will tell and no science behind this prediction, but expect inter company transfers from India to replace open market hiring for any position that arises in professional services.

Not sure this deal survives for long. All the best political hit pieces have a ring of truth to them and ‘tax free Indians’ ticks that box.

For anyone who actually wanted to get off their arse and head to India there are some great opportunities in this

Large corporations are still offshoring activity to India, setting up subsidiaries to make use of the talent at much lower cost. This will increase that movement of people between the two countries but it will be senior management going to India and lower level employees going the other way. Numbers will not be equal.

[robmatic]

Double contribution agreements work and make sense when you’re talking about similar sized countries with similar levels of wealth and people moving both ways. None of which apply here which makes it utterly bonkers.

Time will tell and no science behind this prediction, but expect inter company transfers from India to replace open market hiring for any position that arises in professional services.

Not sure this deal survives for long. All the best political hit pieces have a ring of truth to them and ‘tax free Indians’ ticks that box.

Goes back to the point I made about UK steel. The free market isn't actually good if you cannot compete, it instead means you potentially lose everything.

One of the UK's problems is the often unstated belief the UK can basically compete with anyone and is a world leading superpower. Oddly it often comes out in politicians directly saying "the UK is/will be, world leading in xyz", the statement is always limited to some niche sector of the economy, but there's never any sector where the opposite is claimed so the claim ends up covering everything. The idea there can be something approaching free movement of labour between India and the UK (the deal only covers inter company worker movements, but how many companies in the UK have operations in India and how hard is it to a add a branch in India on paper ... good thing the Indians don't have a reputation for gaming the system) and the UK will somehow come out on top of that, is total madness, but if someone is thinking in the back of their mind the UK is a superpower then it makes more sense.

I agree with most of this, but when it comes to India Brits of a certain age have a blind spot as to what the country is actually like, there’s significant numbers of people, even at the top of government, who will have no comprehension of how the system is about to be scammed

I think there is a lot of potential for scamming in these intra-company visas, especially for bodyshops/BPO firms, but the NI treatment probably isn't that significant a factor in them being worthwhile.

Looking at the rules for the Global Business Mobility Visa, I would be amazed if they aren't already being abused.

[Yeeb]

India lobbing a few missles at Pakistan now , wonder how long the UK will avoid getting some of the blame for that & its new trade connections. Be a real shame if conflict escalates there again.

Our more immediate concern for ourselves would be clashes on the streets between supporters of both communities

Doubt any rioters would be nicked, lose their Uk passport if they have one , and deported to Kashmir with some Uk made weapons to let them sort out their quarrel there. But if that did happen, it wouldn’t be a bad thing.

[Paddington Bear]

Goes back to the point I made about UK steel. The free market isn't actually good if you cannot compete, it instead means you potentially lose everything.

One of the UK's problems is the often unstated belief the UK can basically compete with anyone and is a world leading superpower. Oddly it often comes out in politicians directly saying "the UK is/will be, world leading in xyz", the statement is always limited to some niche sector of the economy, but there's never any sector where the opposite is claimed so the claim ends up covering everything. The idea there can be something approaching free movement of labour between India and the UK (the deal only covers inter company worker movements, but how many companies in the UK have operations in India and how hard is it to a add a branch in India on paper ... good thing the Indians don't have a reputation for gaming the system) and the UK will somehow come out on top of that, is total madness, but if someone is thinking in the back of their mind the UK is a superpower then it makes more sense.

I agree with most of this, but when it comes to India Brits of a certain age have a blind spot as to what the country is actually like, there’s significant numbers of people, even at the top of government, who will have no comprehension of how the system is about to be scammed

I think there is a lot of potential for scamming in these intra-company visas, especially for bodyshops/BPO firms, but the NI treatment probably isn't that significant a factor in them being worthwhile.

Looking at the rules for the Global Business Mobility Visa, I would be amazed if they aren't already being abused.

For the scamming it’s more the ease with which you can now inter-company transfer members of your extended family into the country. Rife for abuse, but the larger issue is it being easier and easier to bring people over at wage rates competitive compared to Brits


Re: all kicking off in Kashmir and the impact over here - in my cricket league Hounslow are playing Slough Saturday. Tasty

[Yeeb]

I agree with most of this, but when it comes to India Brits of a certain age have a blind spot as to what the country is actually like, there’s significant numbers of people, even at the top of government, who will have no comprehension of how the system is about to be scammed

I think there is a lot of potential for scamming in these intra-company visas, especially for bodyshops/BPO firms, but the NI treatment probably isn't that significant a factor in them being worthwhile.

Looking at the rules for the Global Business Mobility Visa, I would be amazed if they aren't already being abused.

For the scamming it’s more the ease with which you can now inter-company transfer members of your extended family into the country. Rife for abuse, but the larger issue is it being easier and easier to bring people over at wage rates competitive compared to Brits


Re: all kicking off in Kashmir and the impact over here - in my cricket league Hounslow are playing Slough Saturday. Tasty

Jesus, what league is that, Ryman southern countries rapey shithole Merit table ?!

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Double contribution agreements work and make sense when you’re talking about similar sized countries with similar levels of wealth and people moving both ways. None of which apply here which makes it utterly bonkers.

Time will tell and no science behind this prediction, but expect inter company transfers from India to replace open market hiring for any position that arises in professional services.

Not sure this deal survives for long. All the best political hit pieces have a ring of truth to them and ‘tax free Indians’ ticks that box.

For anyone who actually wanted to get off their arse and head to India there are some great opportunities in this

Large corporations are still offshoring activity to India, setting up subsidiaries to make use of the talent at much lower cost. This will increase that movement of people between the two countries but it will be senior management going to India and lower level employees going the other way. Numbers will not be equal.

Looking the size of their population and ours I'm not in all ways shocked.

But this is an opportunity, and one that will develop and grow as India will surely grow. Unless India decides to get involved in a long term war with Pakistani and China, but I doubt they'd want that, perish the thought. Just seems a shame we focus so on the negative and things that might go wrong and don't even spend a moment wondering what doors are opened. And we get the instant negative take from many of the same people who'd lament Trump's zero sum take on trade relations

[Slick]

For anyone who actually wanted to get off their arse and head to India there are some great opportunities in this

Large corporations are still offshoring activity to India, setting up subsidiaries to make use of the talent at much lower cost. This will increase that movement of people between the two countries but it will be senior management going to India and lower level employees going the other way. Numbers will not be equal.

Looking the size of their population and ours I'm not in all ways shocked.

But this is an opportunity, and one that will develop and grow as India will surely grow. Unless India decides to get involved in a long term war with Pakistani and China, but I doubt they'd want that, perish the thought. Just seems a shame we focus so on the negative and things that might go wrong and don't even spend a moment wondering what doors are opened. And we get the instant negative take from many of the same people who'd lament Trump's zero sum take on trade relations

True enough, but as was mentioned earlier, £4.5 billion seems a pretty small amount to be getting so excited about.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Large corporations are still offshoring activity to India, setting up subsidiaries to make use of the talent at much lower cost. This will increase that movement of people between the two countries but it will be senior management going to India and lower level employees going the other way. Numbers will not be equal.

Looking the size of their population and ours I'm not in all ways shocked.

But this is an opportunity, and one that will develop and grow as India will surely grow. Unless India decides to get involved in a long term war with Pakistani and China, but I doubt they'd want that, perish the thought. Just seems a shame we focus so on the negative and things that might go wrong and don't even spend a moment wondering what doors are opened. And we get the instant negative take from many of the same people who'd lament Trump's zero sum take on trade relations

True enough, but as was mentioned earlier, £4.5 billion seems a pretty small amount to be getting so excited about.

I don't know I've heard anyone getting excited. It's an okay step, but only a tiny amount of the sum we gave away for free with Brexit

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Large corporations are still offshoring activity to India, setting up subsidiaries to make use of the talent at much lower cost. This will increase that movement of people between the two countries but it will be senior management going to India and lower level employees going the other way. Numbers will not be equal.

Looking the size of their population and ours I'm not in all ways shocked.

But this is an opportunity, and one that will develop and grow as India will surely grow. Unless India decides to get involved in a long term war with Pakistani and China, but I doubt they'd want that, perish the thought. Just seems a shame we focus so on the negative and things that might go wrong and don't even spend a moment wondering what doors are opened. And we get the instant negative take from many of the same people who'd lament Trump's zero sum take on trade relations

True enough, but as was mentioned earlier, £4.5 billion seems a pretty small amount to be getting so excited about.

I don't know I've heard anyone getting excited. It's an okay step, but only a tiny amount of the sum we gave away for free with Brexit

[Biffer]

Looks like Kemi put the offer of the NI exemption on the table when she was business secretary, according to Indian officials speaking to the FT.

[fishfoodie]

Double contribution agreements work and make sense when you’re talking about similar sized countries with similar levels of wealth and people moving both ways. None of which apply here which makes it utterly bonkers.

Time will tell and no science behind this prediction, but expect inter company transfers from India to replace open market hiring for any position that arises in professional services.

Not sure this deal survives for long. All the best political hit pieces have a ring of truth to them and ‘tax free Indians’ ticks that box.

For anyone who actually wanted to get off their arse and head to India there are some great opportunities in this

Large corporations are still offshoring activity to India, setting up subsidiaries to make use of the talent at much lower cost. This will increase that movement of people between the two countries but it will be senior management going to India and lower level employees going the other way. Numbers will not be equal.

Well if you take my recent experience with TCS, we had a major offshoring to them, with Irish employees being let go, & replacements mostly offshore, but in a number of cases where the person they were replacing had to be, "feet on the ground", was a young TCS grad who had to be available to push power buttons etc.

People have gotten used to the offshoring part, but being replaced by tax payer subsidized migrant worker will be a new wrinkle in the game, & will put a lot more roles at risk of being undercut with cheap labour from India.

TCS already have offices around the UK & Europe, so it's easy for them to just add heads to these existing premises, & rotate staff thru them, their turnover in staff is astronomical anyway, I'm sick of training them already, & our management is willfully blind to it & pretends it'll all be fine.

[Hal Jordan]

Looks like Kemi put the offer of the NI exemption on the table when she was business secretary, according to Indian officials speaking to the FT.

Doesn't matter, though. Up is down, black is white, we have always been at war with Eastasia.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

TCS already have offices around the UK & Europe, so it's easy for them to just add heads to these existing premises, & rotate staff thru them, their turnover in staff is astronomical anyway, I'm sick of training them already, & our management is willfully blind to it & pretends it'll all be fine.

Their willingness to churn staff is a thing, but the big issue is the fees they set to take their best staff out of contract and hire them direct. But if you happen to know (and trust) someone who contracts through a different firm you can just recommend to each other the absolute stars and then see if you can entice them to come work for you avoiding the fee your own supplier would levy.

I've done quite a bit of work with TCS over the last few decades, for sure there's the odd dud (often me it turns out), but mainly it's a pleasure working with people with multiple degrees, fluent in a number of languages, and with a real work ethic. There can be a challenge they don't want to be a bearer of bad news, so they can tend to dance around an issue, but once some trust is built they are more willing to cut to the chase, but that is a cultural clash, as is encountering people used to having servants and treating others in such fashion. On balance however it's been a real positive, and helped hugely grow a number of businesses in the UK, until Brexit and investment really shifted overseas anyway

[Simian]

Looks like Kemi put the offer of the NI exemption on the table when she was business secretary, according to Indian officials speaking to the FT.

That’s hilarious

[Paddington Bear]

For balance from the Indian debacle, the government have done well on first review of the US deal and deserve a lot of credit for how they’ve navigated a very sticky wicket with the Trump administration full stop

[fishfoodie]

For balance from the Indian debacle, the government have done well on first review of the US deal and deserve a lot of credit for how they’ve navigated a very sticky wicket with the Trump administration full stop

It helped that the shitgibbon needs to show something for the immolation of the US economy with his idiotic tariffs; the actual value of trade covered by the agreement is very low by any measure, but both sides get to claim some kind of victory.

[Biffer]

For balance from the Indian debacle, the government have done well on first review of the US deal and deserve a lot of credit for how they’ve navigated a very sticky wicket with the Trump administration full stop

The Indian one isn't a debacle. Don't eat up the Reform/Telegraph/DailyMail BS

[dpedin]

For balance from the Indian debacle, the government have done well on first review of the US deal and deserve a lot of credit for how they’ve navigated a very sticky wicket with the Trump administration full stop

The Indian one isn't a debacle. Don't eat up the Reform/Telegraph/DailyMail BS

Agree with Biffer - the Indian deal is small beer for both parties but is good for UK and at least is movement in right direction. Reform/Telegraph/DailyMail don't like it because it involves dealing with the 'fuzzy wuzzies' - ignore them! Important for the UK to be striking these trade deals at the moment given the Trump shitshow and shifting geopolitics.

[Lobby]

For balance from the Indian debacle, the government have done well on first review of the US deal and deserve a lot of credit for how they’ve navigated a very sticky wicket with the Trump administration full stop

The Indian one isn't a debacle. Don't eat up the Reform/Telegraph/DailyMail BS

Reform/Telegraph/DailyMail don't like it because it involves dealing with the 'fuzzy wuzzies'

More likely they are just pissed off because the Tories failed to secure a deal with India before the election, so they couldn't proclaim it as another triumph for 'Brexit Britain' like they did every time Truss agreed a deal that was worth 0.00000001% of GDP.

[TB63]