Stop voting for fucking Tories

[fishfoodie]

So the trick is to be a sleazy corrupt government that gives the impression of doing a good job. The Tory voting majority remind me so much of white people in apartheid South Africa. Insular, stupid, bigoted, nationalistic. Completely ready for a pivot further right like the rest of Europe seem to be doing. The UK PM sits in the same category as Bolsanaro, Trump and Putin. Very worrying.

The Tories have very successfully copied the standard tricks of the Populists, & the Totalitarians; you start out with the "Enemy without"; the French, the Americans, the Chinese, etc, & use this to make bigotry, & Ultra Nationalism normal, & acceptable; & then you start picking out the, "Enemy Within"; the Jews, the Trade Unions, the "Elite".

With the UK, it started with the EU; & then when people pointed out the lies; the Supreme court, & the Media that didn't parrot the official bullshit, became the enemy within.

[dpedin]

So the trick is to be a sleazy corrupt government that gives the impression of doing a good job. The Tory voting majority remind me so much of white people in apartheid South Africa. Insular, stupid, bigoted, nationalistic. Completely ready for a pivot further right like the rest of Europe seem to be doing. The UK PM sits in the same category as Bolsanaro, Trump and Putin. Very worrying.

The Tories have very successfully copied the standard tricks of the Populists, & the Totalitarians; you start out with the "Enemy without"; the French, the Americans, the Chinese, etc, & use this to make bigotry, & Ultra Nationalism normal, & acceptable; & then you start picking out the, "Enemy Within"; the Jews, the Trade Unions, the "Elite".

With the UK, it started with the EU; & then when people pointed out the lies; the Supreme court, & the Media that didn't parrot the official bullshit, became the enemy within.

Agree - don't forget the use of the Union Jack behind every Gov minister to show allegiance to the state and its leader plus using your gov platform to 'officially' propagate party nonsense and messaging such as 'Build Back Better'. Blur the line between party and Gov and State and alienate your opponents as anti-Gov or insider saboteurs fighting against the people. Then, to cap it all, create a phoney war and send gunboats into the Channel Islands to fight an imaginary enemy a la North Korea. Next we will have them in 'party uniform' in front of army cavalcades celebrating some phoney reason for 'unity' such as the Brexit Festival. Trump tried and nearly got there, his insurrection failed, Johnson and his Brexit Ultras are a bit cleverer and are getting closer to winning.

[Hal Jordan]

Next up, a proposed cut of 50% funding to the teaching of arts and archaeology. And a veiled threat to the museums and galleries that not toeing the line on the official Government interpretation of history may lead to similar funding issues.

Step by step, slowly following the playbook. Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.

[sturginho]

Next up, a proposed cut of 50% funding to the teaching of arts and archaeology. And a veiled threat to the museums and galleries that not toeing the line on the official Government interpretation of history may lead to similar funding issues.

Step by step, slowly following the playbook. Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.

Isn't that a line from Command and Conquer?

[SaintK]

So the trick is to be a sleazy corrupt government that gives the impression of doing a good job. The Tory voting majority remind me so much of white people in apartheid South Africa. Insular, stupid, bigoted, nationalistic. Completely ready for a pivot further right like the rest of Europe seem to be doing. The UK PM sits in the same category as Bolsanaro, Trump and Putin. Very worrying.

The Tories have very successfully copied the standard tricks of the Populists, & the Totalitarians; you start out with the "Enemy without"; the French, the Americans, the Chinese, etc, & use this to make bigotry, & Ultra Nationalism normal, & acceptable; & then you start picking out the, "Enemy Within"; the Jews, the Trade Unions, the "Elite".

With the UK, it started with the EU; & then when people pointed out the lies; the Supreme court, & the Media that didn't parrot the official bullshit, became the enemy within.

Agree - don't forget the use of the Union Jack behind every Gov minister to show allegiance to the state and its leader plus using your gov platform to 'officially' propagate party nonsense and messaging such as 'Build Back Better'. Blur the line between party and Gov and State and alienate your opponents as anti-Gov or insider saboteurs fighting against the people. Then, to cap it all, create a phoney war and send gunboats into the Channel Islands to fight an imaginary enemy a la North Korea. Next we will have them in 'party uniform' in front of army cavalcades celebrating some phoney reason for 'unity' such as the Brexit Festival. Trump tried and nearly got there, his insurrection failed, Johnson and his Brexit Ultras are a bit cleverer and are getting closer to winning.

The good folk of Hartlepool appear happy to give it a go!

[Paddington Bear]

I'm sure we'll get a lot of analysis into what is looking like some thumping wins for the Tories overnight. I suspect it's possible to overcomplicate this - they've delivered two national projects (Brexit and vaccines), that were trumpeted as either impossible or very difficult, in very short order.

[JM2K6]

Aye, Brexit still reigns supreme. That's just what this country largely is now.

[tc27]

The evidence from Scotland shows if you bank the support of even a large minority on a constitutional issue you are in a very strong position in subsequent elections.

Any chance we can rename this thread to something a bit blander?

[tc27]

PS the idea the Conservatives are enacting some sinister and intricate right wing policy agenda is nonsense...if nothing else they lack the intellectual coherence to do this.

They are populists who are spending like drunken sailors lurching from one headline grabbing policy to another.

[JM2K6]

PS the idea the Conservatives are enacting some sinister and intricate right wing policy agenda is nonsense...if nothing else they lack the intellectual coherence to do this.

They are populists who are spending like drunken sailors lurching from one headline grabbing policy to another.

They're trying to bake in Tory rule for future generations. Just because the moves are obvious, doesn't mean they're not sinister.

[Kawazaki]

PS the idea the Conservatives are enacting some sinister and intricate right wing policy agenda is nonsense...if nothing else they lack the intellectual coherence to do this.

They are populists who are spending like drunken sailors lurching from one headline grabbing policy to another.

They're trying to bake in Tory rule for future generations. Just because the moves are obvious, doesn't mean they're not sinister.

The Tories haven't had to do a thing, the success in the 2019 GE and the gains overnight today are coming to them gift-wrapped on a plate from their opponents, principally Labour.

Whether it's calling huge swathes of the population thick, xenophobic and racist or the SNP destroying the Labour vote in Scotland or presenting Corbyn as the answer, the Tories have had to do nothing other than to keep reloading the gun that Labour use to shoot themselves with.

[I like neeps]

I'm sure we'll get a lot of analysis into what is looking like some thumping wins for the Tories overnight. I suspect it's possible to overcomplicate this - they've delivered two national projects (Brexit and vaccines), that were trumpeted as either impossible or very difficult, in very short order.

Brexit (or Labour voting against May's Brexit deals and so "not listening to the will of the people") was the key to unlock the door. If you look at the "red wall" seats they match the South and Midlands areas the Tories always win. Majority home owning middle aged folk. That is their constituency and up north it's a big old constitutency. Demographics explain the Tory vote up north it just got a little push from Brexit and the culture wars with UKIP/Brexit Party being the halfway house.

Labour can't be the party of the home owners and renters at the same time. And so they're screwed.

[Paddington Bear]

We're reaching a point of asking what the Labour party is for.
- It can't unite the centre/centre left/left
- It isn't the party of the organised working class
- It doesn't represent Scotland and Wales at Westminster
- It isn't seen as a government in waiting or as a viable radical alternative
- It isn't going to win an election any time soon

At some point does it's urban and wealthier vote follow the Germans and head to the Greens?

[I like neeps]

We're reaching a point of asking what the Labour party is for.
- It can't unite the centre/centre left/left
- It isn't the party of the organised working class
- It doesn't represent Scotland and Wales at Westminster
- It isn't seen as a government in waiting or as a viable radical alternative
- It isn't going to win an election any time soon

At some point does it's urban and wealthier vote follow the Germans and head to the Greens?

It is the party of the organised working class as it still has the union support. Working class or middle class just isn't a helpful grouping. Working class people now in retirement or close to retirement who own a home will vote Tory. Working class people with 2 jobs and rent will vote labour.

We need to start looking at society not as a class divide but as an age and home ownership divide. That explains the vote better than any class division.

[tabascoboy]

I guess the truth may be that we have exactly the government we deserve after all.

[Paddington Bear]

We're reaching a point of asking what the Labour party is for.
- It can't unite the centre/centre left/left
- It isn't the party of the organised working class
- It doesn't represent Scotland and Wales at Westminster
- It isn't seen as a government in waiting or as a viable radical alternative
- It isn't going to win an election any time soon

At some point does it's urban and wealthier vote follow the Germans and head to the Greens?

It is the party of the organised working class as it still has the union support. Working class or middle class just isn't a helpful grouping. Working class people now in retirement or close to retirement who own a home will vote Tory. Working class people with 2 jobs and rent will vote labour.

We need to start looking at society not as a class divide but as an age and home ownership divide. That explains the vote better than any class division.

Fair point, should more clarify it cannot mobilise the organised working class vote like it used to, and doesn't as clearly campaign on it's behalf (not least because it's interests and those of the urban middle class are not the same).
Also working class Conservatism is nothing new - it's existed since the extension of the franchise.

[I like neeps]

We're reaching a point of asking what the Labour party is for.
- It can't unite the centre/centre left/left
- It isn't the party of the organised working class
- It doesn't represent Scotland and Wales at Westminster
- It isn't seen as a government in waiting or as a viable radical alternative
- It isn't going to win an election any time soon

At some point does it's urban and wealthier vote follow the Germans and head to the Greens?

It is the party of the organised working class as it still has the union support. Working class or middle class just isn't a helpful grouping. Working class people now in retirement or close to retirement who own a home will vote Tory. Working class people with 2 jobs and rent will vote labour.

We need to start looking at society not as a class divide but as an age and home ownership divide. That explains the vote better than any class division.

Fair point, should more clarify it cannot mobilise the organised working class vote like it used to, and doesn't as clearly campaign on it's behalf (not least because it's interests and those of the urban middle class are not the same).
Also working class Conservatism is nothing new - it's existed since the extension of the franchise.

Agree but how can you mobilise young urban graduates and the home owning closer to retirement classes at the same time? They have very little in common politically. Fundamentally one class wants affordable housing and the other class want house prices to keep rising.

[tc27]

Twenty years ago people were saying there was no way back for the Conservatives and no way for them to build a coalition of voters as Labour utterly dominated elections - I am sceptical of claims that any dominance will be permanent.

The vaccine and Brexit effects are not permanent - Boris Johnson's ability to reach beyond core Conservative voters (in England) is probably unique to him.

Starmers role will be like Howards in 2005 - rehabilitate the party and lead it to a respectable loss. I would not bet against a Labour government again after that (assuming they can keep the loonies at bay).

[Insane_Homer]

& that fucking weird beardy hermit anti-Semite twat casts a long shadow.

[Paddington Bear]

It is the party of the organised working class as it still has the union support. Working class or middle class just isn't a helpful grouping. Working class people now in retirement or close to retirement who own a home will vote Tory. Working class people with 2 jobs and rent will vote labour.

We need to start looking at society not as a class divide but as an age and home ownership divide. That explains the vote better than any class division.

Fair point, should more clarify it cannot mobilise the organised working class vote like it used to, and doesn't as clearly campaign on it's behalf (not least because it's interests and those of the urban middle class are not the same).
Also working class Conservatism is nothing new - it's existed since the extension of the franchise.

Agree but how can you mobilise young urban graduates and the home owning closer to retirement classes at the same time? They have very little in common politically. Fundamentally one class wants affordable housing and the other class want house prices to keep rising.

Not an easy square to circle at all. Of course the worry for Labour has to be if the Tories going forward do actually start to build houses for these urban renters...

[I like neeps]

Fair point, should more clarify it cannot mobilise the organised working class vote like it used to, and doesn't as clearly campaign on it's behalf (not least because it's interests and those of the urban middle class are not the same).
Also working class Conservatism is nothing new - it's existed since the extension of the franchise.

Agree but how can you mobilise young urban graduates and the home owning closer to retirement classes at the same time? They have very little in common politically. Fundamentally one class wants affordable housing and the other class want house prices to keep rising.

Not an easy square to circle at all. Of course the worry for Labour has to be if the Tories going forward do actually start to build houses for these urban renters...

The political game changes as soon as housing become cheaper. The Tories can't build more houses without house prices coming down and annoying a lot of their voters. That's why every single housing policy is designed to increase demand not supply.

[JM2K6]

PS the idea the Conservatives are enacting some sinister and intricate right wing policy agenda is nonsense...if nothing else they lack the intellectual coherence to do this.

They are populists who are spending like drunken sailors lurching from one headline grabbing policy to another.

They're trying to bake in Tory rule for future generations. Just because the moves are obvious, doesn't mean they're not sinister.

The Tories haven't had to do a thing, the success in the 2019 GE and the gains overnight today are coming to them gift-wrapped on a plate from their opponents, principally Labour.

Whether it's calling huge swathes of the population thick, xenophobic and racist or the SNP destroying the Labour vote in Scotland or presenting Corbyn as the answer, the Tories have had to do nothing other than to keep reloading the gun that Labour use to shoot themselves with.

We're talking about completely different things here.

[tc27]

Agree but how can you mobilise young urban graduates and the home owning closer to retirement classes at the same time? They have very little in common politically. Fundamentally one class wants affordable housing and the other class want house prices to keep rising.

Not an easy square to circle at all. Of course the worry for Labour has to be if the Tories going forward do actually start to build houses for these urban renters...

The political game changes as soon as housing become cheaper. The Tories can't build more houses without house prices coming down and annoying a lot of their voters. That's why every single housing policy is designed to increase demand not supply.

Agree with this - our current political settlement is basically fucking over the young to maintain the status and benefits for the old. Theresa May (to her credit) made the first move to address this and lost what should have being a thumping majority in the 2017 GE as a result. No-one will dare address this now but eventually the passage of time will change things.

[robmatic]

We're reaching a point of asking what the Labour party is for.
- It can't unite the centre/centre left/left
- It isn't the party of the organised working class
- It doesn't represent Scotland and Wales at Westminster
- It isn't seen as a government in waiting or as a viable radical alternative
- It isn't going to win an election any time soon

At some point does it's urban and wealthier vote follow the Germans and head to the Greens?

It is the party of the organised working class as it still has the union support. Working class or middle class just isn't a helpful grouping. Working class people now in retirement or close to retirement who own a home will vote Tory. Working class people with 2 jobs and rent will vote labour.

We need to start looking at society not as a class divide but as an age and home ownership divide. That explains the vote better than any class division.

Not as many union members around these days either.

[Lobby]

Twenty years ago people were saying there was no way back for the Conservatives and no way for them to build a coalition of voters as Labour utterly dominated elections - I am sceptical of claims that any dominance will be permanent.

The vaccine and Brexit effects are not permanent - Boris Johnson's ability to reach beyond core Conservative voters (in England) is probably unique to him.

Starmers role will be like Howards in 2005 - rehabilitate the party and lead it to a respectable loss. I would not bet against a Labour government again after that (assuming they can keep the loonies at bay).

A lot of the focus is going to be on Hartlepool, but the local council elections are looking even worse for Labour. The predictions were that Labour would probably lose around 60 councillors to the Tories overall. With just 16 of 143 councils declared, the Tories are already 59 councillors up, and have gained control of 4 councils.

It appears that one of the lasting impacts of UKIP/Brexit on UK politics has been to break the link between the Labour Party and its traditional voters; people whose families have always voted Labour (and whose votes Labour to an extent took for granted) broke with tradition to vote UKIP or subsequently the Brexit Party, but are now shifting to the Tories, rather than back to Labour.

[tabascoboy]

Can't see much hope unless there's a drastic split in the Tory party itself with a very significant break by those who reject the party moving ever to the right, but even a new more centralist party might not be enough for change.

Other than that, PR has already been rejected as a driver for change.

[Paddington Bear]

Not an easy square to circle at all. Of course the worry for Labour has to be if the Tories going forward do actually start to build houses for these urban renters...

The political game changes as soon as housing become cheaper. The Tories can't build more houses without house prices coming down and annoying a lot of their voters. That's why every single housing policy is designed to increase demand not supply.

Agree with this - our current political settlement is basically fucking over the young to maintain the status and benefits for the old. Theresa May (to her credit) made the first move to address this and lost what should have being a thumping majority in the 2017 GE as a result. No-one will dare address this now but eventually the passage of time will change things.

I mentioned this on the property thread before, however I think we're at a point in time where boomer owner occupiers are at the peak of their political clout. Every election going forward it will decline, and a Tory party that can skillfully navigate more people into nicer homes would be well placed to maintain it's power.

[Biffer]

Twenty years ago people were saying there was no way back for the Conservatives and no way for them to build a coalition of voters as Labour utterly dominated elections - I am sceptical of claims that any dominance will be permanent.

The vaccine and Brexit effects are not permanent - Boris Johnson's ability to reach beyond core Conservative voters (in England) is probably unique to him.

Starmers role will be like Howards in 2005 - rehabilitate the party and lead it to a respectable loss. I would not bet against a Labour government again after that (assuming they can keep the loonies at bay).

Yeah, you can't see Gove, Raab, or any of the rest of them going down well in traditionally working class, Labour voting areas.

[Kawazaki]

They're trying to bake in Tory rule for future generations. Just because the moves are obvious, doesn't mean they're not sinister.

The Tories haven't had to do a thing, the success in the 2019 GE and the gains overnight today are coming to them gift-wrapped on a plate from their opponents, principally Labour.

Whether it's calling huge swathes of the population thick, xenophobic and racist or the SNP destroying the Labour vote in Scotland or presenting Corbyn as the answer, the Tories have had to do nothing other than to keep reloading the gun that Labour use to shoot themselves with.

We're talking about completely different things here.

I don't think we are.

Point is that the Tories aren't doing any 'baking'.

[Rinkals]

We're reaching a point of asking what the Labour party is for.
- It can't unite the centre/centre left/left
- It isn't the party of the organised working class
- It doesn't represent Scotland and Wales at Westminster
- It isn't seen as a government in waiting or as a viable radical alternative
- It isn't going to win an election any time soon

At some point does it's urban and wealthier vote follow the Germans and head to the Greens?

Why "head to the Greens"?

Are the Lib Dems totally unelectable?

[Paddington Bear]

We're reaching a point of asking what the Labour party is for.
- It can't unite the centre/centre left/left
- It isn't the party of the organised working class
- It doesn't represent Scotland and Wales at Westminster
- It isn't seen as a government in waiting or as a viable radical alternative
- It isn't going to win an election any time soon

At some point does it's urban and wealthier vote follow the Germans and head to the Greens?

Why "head to the Greens"?

Are the Lib Dems totally unelectable?

Well yes, clearly

[I like neeps]

The political game changes as soon as housing become cheaper. The Tories can't build more houses without house prices coming down and annoying a lot of their voters. That's why every single housing policy is designed to increase demand not supply.

Agree with this - our current political settlement is basically fucking over the young to maintain the status and benefits for the old. Theresa May (to her credit) made the first move to address this and lost what should have being a thumping majority in the 2017 GE as a result. No-one will dare address this now but eventually the passage of time will change things.

I mentioned this on the property thread before, however I think we're at a point in time where boomer owner occupiers are at the peak of their political clout. Every election going forward it will decline, and a Tory party that can skillfully navigate more people into nicer homes would be well placed to maintain it's power.

They need to somehow increase demand and supply in a way that continues to raise house prices and not do anything about salaries not rising. It's a hell of an ask.

The people building houses these days are investment banks and private equity firms building multi family homes or graduate homes for rent anyway. BTR/BTL is the hot asset class these days. Bank of mum and dad is the best hope for the majority of young people.

Ultimately for the UK pricing young people out of homes and having children is a disaster for the future years. But today's vote is all that matters, building a better society doesn't.

[JM2K6]

The Tories haven't had to do a thing, the success in the 2019 GE and the gains overnight today are coming to them gift-wrapped on a plate from their opponents, principally Labour.

Whether it's calling huge swathes of the population thick, xenophobic and racist or the SNP destroying the Labour vote in Scotland or presenting Corbyn as the answer, the Tories have had to do nothing other than to keep reloading the gun that Labour use to shoot themselves with.

We're talking about completely different things here.

I don't think we are.

Point is that the Tories aren't doing any 'baking'.

I don't think you've been paying attention. Shit, just look at what they've been doing with OFCOM and the BBC.

[Kawazaki]

Twenty years ago people were saying there was no way back for the Conservatives and no way for them to build a coalition of voters as Labour utterly dominated elections - I am sceptical of claims that any dominance will be permanent.

The vaccine and Brexit effects are not permanent - Boris Johnson's ability to reach beyond core Conservative voters (in England) is probably unique to him.

Starmers role will be like Howards in 2005 - rehabilitate the party and lead it to a respectable loss. I would not bet against a Labour government again after that (assuming they can keep the loonies at bay).

The Tories struggled to beat New Labour because Blair position himself alongside the pillars of the conservative vote - low tax, low spend. He made it very difficult for the Conservative party to differentiate themselves (the fact he was actually spending like mad off book via PFI which made shit loads of money for private equity funds in the city only made him more popular with the establishment).

What's happened to Labour is very different. People who voted Labour for generations and still remained poor don't have the same drivers. Politics for many people isn't an economic consideration anymore, It's more about culture. Take Brexit for example, the Tories are increasingly aligned with Leave and Labour with Remain but despite the Brexit vote being close, the Remain heartlands were in Scotland and London. In constituency terms, this gives the Tories a big advantage as they still largely get the Leave vote whereas the Labour Remain vote is split amongst the SNP, Greens and LibDems.

[Kawazaki]

We're talking about completely different things here.

I don't think we are.

Point is that the Tories aren't doing any 'baking'.

I don't think you've been paying attention. Shit, just look at what they've been doing with OFCOM and the BBC.

They've done what every government does. Have you forgotten the cronyism of the Blair years already?!

[JM2K6]

I don't think we are.

Point is that the Tories aren't doing any 'baking'.

I don't think you've been paying attention. Shit, just look at what they've been doing with OFCOM and the BBC.

They've done what every government does. Have you forgotten the cronyism of the Blair years already?!

So Blair turned independent institutions into ones controlled by Labour?

[robmatic]

I don't think you've been paying attention. Shit, just look at what they've been doing with OFCOM and the BBC.

They've done what every government does. Have you forgotten the cronyism of the Blair years already?!

So Blair turned independent institutions into ones controlled by Labour?

Eh, Labour donor Greg Dyke got the top job at the Beeb.

[tabascoboy]

I voted, not expecting anything other than a Tory landslide locally yet again though. Went "tactical" but it will be in vain.

Talk of 43% turnout in my area, which although better than most local/county elections is still indicative of too much voter apathy (notwithstanding Covid). No telling who the absentees may have voted for if voting was obligatory but anyone wanting change who doesn't vote only has themselves to blame.

[Kawazaki]

They've done what every government does. Have you forgotten the cronyism of the Blair years already?!

So Blair turned independent institutions into ones controlled by Labour?

Eh, Labour donor Greg Dyke got the top job at the Beeb.

Don't forget the House of Lords.

[Rinkals]

We're reaching a point of asking what the Labour party is for.
- It can't unite the centre/centre left/left
- It isn't the party of the organised working class
- It doesn't represent Scotland and Wales at Westminster
- It isn't seen as a government in waiting or as a viable radical alternative
- It isn't going to win an election any time soon

At some point does it's urban and wealthier vote follow the Germans and head to the Greens?

Why "head to the Greens"?

Are the Lib Dems totally unelectable?

Well yes, clearly

That's pretty glib.