2023 Six Nations

[sockwithaticket]

Not having any of that. No 10 looks particularly good when their pack is collectively skullfucked like that and yet he was a rare source of bright moments today. Plenty of occasions where he got ball on the back foot and put a forward back onto the front foot with his footwork and pass selection. There's only so much a 10 can do when the forwards can't/won't support the breakdown adequately and those outside him keep dropping or knocking the ball on in contact.

Sorry, no, that’s mad. He was pretty awful

You were wrong about Aki yesterday and you're wrong about Smith today.

[Deveron Boy]

As I am following bored convention and don’t want to invade/comment on England Rugby thread; can the bellend that posted there after Italy game ‘’ be interesting to see how we go against the big teams’ just update us on his thoughts? England are miles away from big 4 down with Aus, Scot, Argie and wales in div 2 but there is a proportion of their fan base that refuses to accept that…

Ireland and France are quite clearly the big teams in this competition tbf.

Agree completely but it’s the fans that still place Eng in that group that trigger us celts!

[TheFrog]

As I am following bored convention and don’t want to invade/comment on England Rugby thread; can the bellend that posted there after Italy game ‘’ be interesting to see how we go against the big teams’ just update us on his thoughts? England are miles away from big 4 down with Aus, Scot, Argie and wales in div 2 but there is a proportion of their fan base that refuses to accept that…

Ireland and France are quite clearly the big teams in this competition tbf.

I still think Ireland are ahead of France. It took France a massive effort to beat Ireland at home last year, yet Ireland were comfortable this year and the score highlighted that.

[JM2K6]

Let them have their moment. Clinging to moments of good in an otherwise poor display isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't rate him and nor should it. It's up to Smith to prove them wrong and he'll get chances under pressure when the team hasn't fallen apart from the start to prove them wrong or right.

Yes, singling him out is weird but it's hardly a surprise and that's the price paid for players like that with the hype that comes along with him.

[TheFrog]

Not having any of that. No 10 looks particularly good when their pack is collectively skullfucked like that and yet he was a rare source of bright moments today. Plenty of occasions where he got ball on the back foot and put a forward back onto the front foot with his footwork and pass selection. There's only so much a 10 can do when the forwards can't/won't support the breakdown adequately and those outside him keep dropping or knocking the ball on in contact.

Sorry, no, that’s mad. He was pretty awful

You were wrong about Aki yesterday and you're wrong about Smith today.

Do you think Smith was any good? I thought he was really poor. Granted, he played behind a beaten pack but even his kicking of hand was terrible.

[JM2K6]

As I am following bored convention and don’t want to invade/comment on England Rugby thread; can the bellend that posted there after Italy game ‘’ be interesting to see how we go against the big teams’ just update us on his thoughts? England are miles away from big 4 down with Aus, Scot, Argie and wales in div 2 but there is a proportion of their fan base that refuses to accept that…

Ireland and France are quite clearly the big teams in this competition tbf.

Agree completely but it’s the fans that still place Eng in that group that trigger us celts!

Oh, I see. There's nothing in the quotes you've given us that suggested England were being put on the same level as those sides, though. It's not like we haven't just had the worst losing run for a very long time.

[sockwithaticket]

Sorry, no, that’s mad. He was pretty awful

You were wrong about Aki yesterday and you're wrong about Smith today.

Do you think Smith was any good? I thought he was really poor. Granted, he played behind a beaten pack but even his kicking of hand was terrible.

No I don't think he was good. No one in that England performance was good, but in admidst all that rubbish he was one of the better performers (tallest midget, least smelly shit, etc.), so it's weird to single him out. It smacks of people who already don't like him because he's young, hyped and has floppy hair confirming their own bias.

[sockwithaticket]

Let them have their moment. Clinging to moments of good in an otherwise poor display isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't rate him and nor should it. It's up to Smith to prove them wrong and he'll get chances under pressure when the team hasn't fallen apart from the start to prove them wrong or right.

Yes, singling him out is weird but it's hardly a surprise and that's the price paid for players like that with the hype that comes along with him.

True, I should log off and go drown my sorrows in pizza.

[Biffer]

So tomorrow becomes really important then.

From a Scotland fan point of view, it's god to be in big games this late in the tournament.

Let's fuck them up.

[TheFrog]

You were wrong about Aki yesterday and you're wrong about Smith today.

Do you think Smith was any good? I thought he was really poor. Granted, he played behind a beaten pack but even his kicking of hand was terrible.

No I don't think he was good. No one in that England performance was good, but in admidst all that rubbish he was one of the better performers (tallest midget, least smelly shit, etc.), so it's weird to single him out. It smacks of people who already don't like him because he's young, hyped and has floppy hair confirming their own bias.

I see. Tend to agree. A bit like Torque and Ntamack.

[Paddington Bear]

As I am following bored convention and don’t want to invade/comment on England Rugby thread; can the bellend that posted there after Italy game ‘’ be interesting to see how we go against the big teams’ just update us on his thoughts? England are miles away from big 4 down with Aus, Scot, Argie and wales in div 2 but there is a proportion of their fan base that refuses to accept that…

Ireland and France are quite clearly the big teams in this competition tbf.

Agree completely but it’s the fans that still place Eng in that group that trigger us celts!

‘Lets see how we go against the big boys’ seems a fair comment given we plastered Italy and have never lost to them, and France and Ireland are the best two teams in the world. We found out today how we go against them. No one English has been bracketing us in the top 4 for some time, sorry you’re bullshitting if you pretend otherwise. Just accept that this is all in your head, your idea of England fans is not the reality and everyone knows it right now.

[Torquemada 1420]

Do you think Smith was any good? I thought he was really poor. Granted, he played behind a beaten pack but even his kicking of hand was terrible.

Smith isn't picked for his kicking game. He was probably the only Eng player who looked an occasional threat ball in hand.

It's strange seeing people blame a FH playing behind a humiliated pack and a 9 who had a shocker too when some of those same people will be defending a clueless FH playing behind a dominant pack and the best 9 in the world...........

[Torquemada 1420]

Do you think Smith was any good? I thought he was really poor. Granted, he played behind a beaten pack but even his kicking of hand was terrible.

No I don't think he was good. No one in that England performance was good, but in admidst all that rubbish he was one of the better performers (tallest midget, least smelly shit, etc.), so it's weird to single him out. It smacks of people who already don't like him because he's young, hyped and has floppy hair confirming their own bias.

I see. Tend to agree. A bit like Torque and Ntamack.

Rubbish. I don't like Ntamack because he is sh*t. Simple as.

[TheFrog]

Do you think Smith was any good? I thought he was really poor. Granted, he played behind a beaten pack but even his kicking of hand was terrible.

Smith isn't picked for his kicking game. He was probably the only Eng player who looked an occasional threat ball in hand.

It's strange seeing people blame a FH playing behind a humiliated pack and a 9 who had a shocker too when some of those same people will be defending a clueless FH playing behind a dominant pack and the best 9 in the world...........

Then Borthwick is an idiot, because Smith was required to kick a lot. And he didn't do that well.

[fishfoodie]

Do you think Smith was any good? I thought he was really poor. Granted, he played behind a beaten pack but even his kicking of hand was terrible.

Smith isn't picked for his kicking game. He was probably the only Eng player who looked an occasional threat ball in hand.

It's strange seeing people blame a FH playing behind a humiliated pack and a 9 who had a shocker too when some of those same people will be defending a clueless FH playing behind a dominant pack and the best 9 in the world...........

Then Borthwick is an idiot, because Smith was required to kick a lot. And he didn't do that well.

He needed to kick a lot, because that was the worst performance I can remember seeing from an English pack !

You don't really expect the spectacular from English forwards, just a solid, reliable platform. JvP had a shocker, no doubt, & Smith standing outside got slow ball, & a rampaging French team, that was running thru gain line, while half his forwards were still dragging their arses off the floor.

The performance started with the pack being several levels below dog shit; & that's the most urgent issue for England, with only a week to pick the players up & dust them off.

[JM2K6]

Smith can kick very well and he didn't do so today. He's not a one dimensional fly half who doesn't have that ability in his locker. He's not George Ford with the boot, but I distinctly remember several performances where Ford booted good front foot ball away poorly and England have lost eminently winnable games so there's that. Obviously Smith's point of difference is the threat he poses at the gain line and we only saw glimpses of that. He made a couple of decent breaks and the Steward try came when he kickstarted a move with a good bit of footwork and deception before putting a runner through the gap he'd just created, but that's very slim pickings considering he also dropped the ball twice, chipped through to no one a few times, and missed touch with a penalty. Had so many other England players not produced much worse displays then it would matter more - as it is, England were behind the 8 ball from the off and losing every single contest in every area of the pitch.

[TheFrog]

And only 4 years ago, England trounced France 44-8...

[Slick]

Not having any of that. No 10 looks particularly good when their pack is collectively skullfucked like that and yet he was a rare source of bright moments today. Plenty of occasions where he got ball on the back foot and put a forward back onto the front foot with his footwork and pass selection. There's only so much a 10 can do when the forwards can't/won't support the breakdown adequately and those outside him keep dropping or knocking the ball on in contact.

Sorry, no, that’s mad. He was pretty awful

You were wrong about Aki yesterday and you're wrong about Smith today.

Very strange post

[Paddington Bear]

And only 4 years ago, England trounced France 44-8...

Yes that game crossed my mind as well. Last 6N of a world cup cycle, one team that had been building coherently vs one that was a mess ends in a rout where one side was totally dominant from minute 1...

[TheFrog]

And only 4 years ago, England trounced France 44-8...

Yes that game crossed my mind as well. Last 6N of a world cup cycle, one team that had been building coherently vs one that was a mess ends in a rout where one side was totally dominant from minute 1...

And that was under Eddie Jones.

[Paddington Bear]

And only 4 years ago, England trounced France 44-8...

Yes that game crossed my mind as well. Last 6N of a world cup cycle, one team that had been building coherently vs one that was a mess ends in a rout where one side was totally dominant from minute 1...

And that was under Eddie Jones.

Eddie's was a two act play. I loved the first act but he didn't need to return to the stage after it...

[Tichtheid]

[TheFrog]

Yes that game crossed my mind as well. Last 6N of a world cup cycle, one team that had been building coherently vs one that was a mess ends in a rout where one side was totally dominant from minute 1...

And that was under Eddie Jones.

Eddie's was a two act play. I loved the first act but he didn't need to return to the stage after it...

I also truly believe that the 2015 crop were an exceptional one, and that Lancaster was unlucky. That crop finished blooming under Eddie Jones and then faded away.

[TheFrog]

That's an angry man.

[TheFrog]

What is funny though is that a few weeks ago, there were talks of France having peaked too early and things looking compromised for the world cup. And now France are favorite again.



I prefer to take away that we have ended 18 years of English invincibility at Twickenham against France, and won by the largest score in history. Two nice landmarks for this French team. Galthie was crying during the interview. Mind you, he played in 1991...

[fishfoodie]

What is funny though is that a few weeks ago, there were talks of France having peaked too early and things looking compromised for the world cup. And now France are favorite again.



I prefer to take away that we have ended 18 years of English invincibility at Twickenham against France, and won by the largest score in history. Two nice landmarks for this French team. Galthie was crying during the interview. Mind you, he played in 1991...

Not by anyone with two brain cells to rub together.

There were multiples more comments saying that the loss was exactly what they needed to bring them back to earth & use it as a learning moment.

[Tichtheid]

I think there was also talk, not necessarily here, on the French players being tired, but that they wouldn't be in September.

[TheFrog]

I think there was also talk, not necessarily here, on the French players being tired, but that they wouldn't be in September.

Actually, the way France prepared this game was to give a week off to the core players of the squad, before bringing them back together for this week of work.

[Biffer]

That's an angry man.

Justifiably so imo.

[C69]

That's an angry man.

Justifiably so imo.

Pathetic really. FFS Italy should have beat that Welsh team. They are a settled group of players v a trial team of kids and experimental combos.
Smattered with some old heads who are past it.

If you can't beat this appalling rabble then it's a sad situation.

[robmatic]

I think he's not wrong. Yes, Italy should definitely have kept the heid better but I have no idea how Wales got away with no yellow cards in that game.

[C69]

I think he's not wrong. Yes, Italy should definitely have kept the heid better but I have no idea how Wales got away with no yellow cards in that game.

Who specifically should have had a yellow?

[robmatic]

I think he's not wrong. Yes, Italy should definitely have kept the heid better but I have no idea how Wales got away with no yellow cards in that game.

Who specifically should have had a yellow?

Repeated infringements usually get your team a yellow, especially in your own 22.

[C69]

I think he's not wrong. Yes, Italy should definitely have kept the heid better but I have no idea how Wales got away with no yellow cards in that game.

Who specifically should have had a yellow?

Repeated infringements usually get your team a yellow, especially in your own 22.

I am not disagreeing with you just asking for specifics.
Do you have any? I can see the debate about the Owen Williams pen try but I haven't seen concrete evidence the ref was wrong.
Crowley was a very angry man and rightly so.
Losing to basically an experimental rag tag of a cobbled together unsettled rabble should be his man concren not blaming everything on the officials.

[sockwithaticket]

I think he's not wrong. Yes, Italy should definitely have kept the heid better but I have no idea how Wales got away with no yellow cards in that game.

Who specifically should have had a yellow?

Other than repeat infringements that robmatic has mentioned, specific incidents people could point to would be:
- Owen Williams stopping Brex from an offside position. Not entirely clear cut, but the case can be made. Certainly the ref's dismissal on the basis of no ruck having formed was just plain wrong. It doesn't need to be a ruck for there to be an offside line.
- Liam Williams take out in the air that was waved off as a fair contest. He was in no more realistic a position to challenge for the ball than Bruno was for his yellow)

[dpedin]

Anyone else think the conditioning of the English forwards just looked awful? They looked well off the pace and lacked any dynamism and power in open play. When you compare the body shapes of their pack with the French, Scottish and Irish packs they look to be carrying a bit of ballast and blowing out of their arses after a phase or two. Scotland and France kept the ball in play, went through multiple phases and knew that gaps in defences would open up as the English pack were so slow in getting up to challenge for the ball or to the defensive line. They also really struggled to make yards when carrying the ball and the leg drives were very poor, they tended to flop over the ball instead of staying on feet and driving and rarely got over the gain line. It made a hard day even harder for VP and Smith who rarely got good fast ball from go forward play, although VP would have wasted it anyway. Mitchell did a bit better when he came on but my blind Granny would have done better tbf.

Borthwick seems to think bringing a traditional English game plan - kicking for position, depending on your huge pack to bully the opposition into mistakes and only playing rugby in oppo 22 - that he used in the Premiership will work at international level. He is now realising that it won't, the world has moved on and the best teams are now are just as big if not bigger, play a far more dynamic, mobile multi phase game keeping the ball in play for longer and happy to keep the ball in hand and go wide if required to find gaps in defences. He is going to struggle getting his team to adapt to the pace of the game, the need for fitness and dynamism in the pack and the mentality and skill levels for a fast game across the whole team.

The Irish pack is going to have a field day next week and won't be as wasteful as the French were yesterday!

[C69]

I think he's not wrong. Yes, Italy should definitely have kept the heid better but I have no idea how Wales got away with no yellow cards in that game.

Who specifically should have had a yellow?

Other than repeat infringements that robmatic has mentioned, specific incidents people could point to would be:
- Owen Williams stopping Brex from an offside position. Not entirely clear cut, but the case can be made. Certainly the ref's dismissal on the basis of no ruck having formed was just plain wrong. It doesn't need to be a ruck for there to be an offside line.
- Liam Williams take out in the air that was waved off as a fair contest. He was in no more realistic a position to challenge for the ball than Bruno was for his yellow)

Owen Williams is a debatable one for sure, not to sure if Liam William is even in the same ball park as a strike to the neck which caused a player to leave the field. That for me was appalling and a clear red. if Sanjay had been given a yellow then fair enough.
But to allow a forarm to the throat to be only a yellow was a blatant disregard for player safety.

Italy should have had a red.


That said not beating that Wales team showed that Italy are still awfull. Wales are at least using the 6N to try combos rotate players and are not taking the competition too seriously. Especially given the splits in camp and strike issue.

[dpedin]

I think he's not wrong. Yes, Italy should definitely have kept the heid better but I have no idea how Wales got away with no yellow cards in that game.

Who specifically should have had a yellow?

Other than repeat infringements that robmatic has mentioned, specific incidents people could point to would be:
- Owen Williams stopping Brex from an offside position. Not entirely clear cut, but the case can be made. Certainly the ref's dismissal on the basis of no ruck having formed was just plain wrong. It doesn't need to be a ruck for there to be an offside line.
- Liam Williams take out in the air that was waved off as a fair contest. He was in no more realistic a position to challenge for the ball than Bruno was for his yellow)

During the match me and son were regularly calling out Welsh pack for foul play at the breakdown, hands in ruck, coming in from side, killing the ball, etc - almost all of which went unpunished. The Brex try should have been a penalty try defo. Williams was defo a YC if Bruno was too. Welsh did their usual and won by pushing rules hard and playing ref well, they barely deserved the win and Italy must have butchered 2-3 dead cert tries, a couple by passing inside having made line break instead of feeding wingers wider out. Italy will be kicking themselves, Welsh will be breathing a huge sigh of relief for winning a game they barely deserved to win.

Italy v Scotland could be a feast of running rugby and I fancy the Italians to score some points but Scotland to score more!

[C69]

Let's be honest Italy should have won that game but...

"Our execution wasn't good enough, and we let ourselves down in that area, which is something we need to look at," said Crowley.

[sockwithaticket]

Who specifically should have had a yellow?

Other than repeat infringements that robmatic has mentioned, specific incidents people could point to would be:
- Owen Williams stopping Brex from an offside position. Not entirely clear cut, but the case can be made. Certainly the ref's dismissal on the basis of no ruck having formed was just plain wrong. It doesn't need to be a ruck for there to be an offside line.
- Liam Williams take out in the air that was waved off as a fair contest. He was in no more realistic a position to challenge for the ball than Bruno was for his yellow)

Owen Williams is a debatable one for sure, not to sure if Liam William is even in the same ball park as a strike to the neck which caused a player to leave the field. That for me was appalling and a clear red. if Sanjay had been given a yellow then fair enough.
But to allow a forarm to the throat to be only a yellow was a blatant disregard for player safety.

Italy should have had a red.


That said not beating that Wales team showed that Italy are still awfull. Wales are at least using the 6N to try combos rotate players and are not taking the competition too seriously. Especially given the splits in camp and strike issue.

I think it was Cannone who got the yellow for the forearm, Bruno was for a bad challenge in the air when Italy put up a crossfield kick which is where it's comparable to Williams.

If the officials are convinced the contact point was chest first and it rides up then I can see why they gave yellow. Goodness knows we've seen more than enough apparently straightforward head contacts where officials mitigate because there's simultaneous shoulder contact and some wibble about force mitigation/low danger as a result, so it's not especially surprising. Like those head contact calls it's clear that, despite the rhetoric, player safety isn't at the forefront of these decisions. I was more on their side during the game in thinking it was a yellow because it wasn't as clear cut awful as the recent Tuilagi red for a similar offence (but higher initial contact point), but then I remember Demetri Catrakilis who suffered a horrific throat injury that kept him out for 6 months and left him needing to work with a speech therapist long after apparent recovery. There was also a Worcester player who was out for longer with a similar injury.

There's definitely been a turning point over the last couple of seasons where players are going for a forearm smash rather than a stiff arm fend and most of them get away with it by keeping it just close enough to the body more through luck than judgement. Probably needs a directive from World Rugby to stamp it.

I'm not sure it's accurate to say Wales aren't taking this tournment seriously, but Italy are definitely not as good as everyone wants them to be. A bit like Japan in that respect.