NPR

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:55 am**

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:34 am
sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:22 am
C69 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:07 am

Who specifically should have had a yellow?
Other than repeat infringements that robmatic has mentioned, specific incidents people could point to would be:
- Owen Williams stopping Brex from an offside position. Not entirely clear cut, but the case can be made. Certainly the ref's dismissal on the basis of no ruck having formed was just plain wrong. It doesn't need to be a ruck for there to be an offside line.
- Liam Williams take out in the air that was waved off as a fair contest. He was in no more realistic a position to challenge for the ball than Bruno was for his yellow)
During the match me and son were regularly calling out Welsh pack for foul play at the breakdown, hands in ruck, coming in from side, killing the ball, etc - almost all of which went unpunished. The Brex try should have been a penalty try defo. Williams was defo a YC if Bruno was too. Welsh did their usual and won by pushing rules hard and playing ref well, they barely deserved the win and Italy must have butchered 2-3 dead cert tries, a couple by passing inside having made line break instead of feeding wingers wider out. Italy will be kicking themselves, Welsh will be breathing a huge sigh of relief for winning a game they barely deserved to win.

Italy v Scotland could be a feast of running rugby and I fancy the Italians to score some points but Scotland to score more!

I can't fault them for it tbh, I wish England were streetwise enough to push the laws and get away with it. If it works, it works and you do what you can to get the result.

Italy definitely created more and maybe on a different day they do win that with something to spare, but on this occasion, for whatever reason, their decision making on line breaks and execution near the line wasn't good enough.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:04 am**

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:28 am Anyone else think the conditioning of the English forwards just looked awful? They looked well off the pace and lacked any dynamism and power in open play. When you compare the body shapes of their pack with the French, Scottish and Irish packs they look to be carrying a bit of ballast and blowing out of their arses after a phase or two. Scotland and France kept the ball in play, went through multiple phases and knew that gaps in defences would open up as the English pack were so slow in getting up to challenge for the ball or to the defensive line. They also really struggled to make yards when carrying the ball and the leg drives were very poor, they tended to flop over the ball instead of staying on feet and driving and rarely got over the gain line. It made a hard day even harder for VP and Smith who rarely got good fast ball from go forward play, although VP would have wasted it anyway. Mitchell did a bit better when he came on but my blind Granny would have done better tbf.

Borthwick seems to think bringing a traditional English game plan - kicking for position, depending on your huge pack to bully the opposition into mistakes and only playing rugby in oppo 22 - that he used in the Premiership will work at international level. He is now realising that it won't, the world has moved on and the best teams are now are just as big if not bigger, play a far more dynamic, mobile multi phase game keeping the ball in play for longer and happy to keep the ball in hand and go wide if required to find gaps in defences. He is going to struggle getting his team to adapt to the pace of the game, the need for fitness and dynamism in the pack and the mentality and skill levels for a fast game across the whole team.

The Irish pack is going to have a field day next week and won't be as wasteful as the French were yesterday!

Yes the fitness of the England side full stop is a real issue, over the last 18 months there's barely a game we haven't faded in. We had Scotland beat two years running if our fitness (and brains) didn't fail us, and it certainly is having a cumulative effect on the side. We're not fit enough, we're too passive, our basic skills are as ever awful, and other teams just seem to want it more right now. The last one certainly wasn't true even 3/4 years ago.

Hard to criticise Borthwick's game plan too much - we conceded a ludicrously soft try after a minute and then started chasing the game which made things worse. If we had actually just played wet weather rugby we'd probably have 'only' lost by 20-odd.

I think this is also broadly correct:

Struck me at the time we were getting a hardish time from O'Keefe who definitely was reffing the breakdown differently to what happens in the Prem. I also noticed he was putting JVP under enormous pressure to use the ball at the breakdown (including a countdown) which he didn't do for Dupont. Certainly didn't help.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:28 am**

C69 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:07 am
robmatic wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:33 am
Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:30 pm
I think he's not wrong. Yes, Italy should definitely have kept the heid better but I have no idea how Wales got away with no yellow cards in that game.
Who specifically should have had a yellow?

You spent all of the England match yesterday calling for England to be carded for repeated infringements. England gave away 11 penalties yesterday. Wales were penalised 14 times (the most of any of the four teams). Wales have the worst discipline of all the 6N teams but were somehow spared a card yesterday despite repeated penalties in the 'red zone'.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:26 pm**

Lobby wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:28 am
C69 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:07 am
robmatic wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:33 am

I think he's not wrong. Yes, Italy should definitely have kept the heid better but I have no idea how Wales got away with no yellow cards in that game.
Who specifically should have had a yellow?
You spent all of the England match yesterday calling for England to be carded for repeated infringements. England gave away 11 penalties yesterday. Wales were penalised 14 times (the most of any of the four teams). Wales have the worst discipline of all the 6N teams but were somehow spared a card yesterday despite repeated penalties in the 'red zone'.

That's absolute bollocks it was not all of the England match.
It was a few occasions in the first half. However that is nothing to do with my post on the Italy Wales game.
I have even graciously admitted that Sanjay could have been yellowed and Owen Williams could have been yellowed as well.

I don't doubt Wales could have been yellowed, just wanted some other specifics.

These things even themselves out, the throat shot not being given a red was a disgrace. If a Wales player had done the same I would be calling for a red as well
You can not feck around with player safety. Wyn Jones was taken out of the game for good not just a 10 min slap on the wrist.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:50 pm**

Leaving aside the more partisan takes, I'm hugely disappointed that the Italy coach would focus on the referee rather than his team's insane profligacy.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:55 pm**

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:50 pm Leaving aside the more partisan takes, I'm hugely disappointed that the Italy coach would focus on the referee rather than his team's insane profligacy.

Blame him, Rassie, ROG, that frenchie, and all the other coaches if you want, but more and more are getting really frustrated with the poor quality of officiating.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:23 pm**

Beeb trying hard to build a narrative of animosity between Scotland and Ireland.
Trying too hard.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:28 pm**

Up the kilts !!!

Am I doing this right?

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:36 pm**

Profile of Andrew Porter in the Sunday Times. His mother died of breast cancer at 49 and was buried the day he should have started secondary school. Then he suffered from anorexia. Got to respect the guy for getting over it. In as much as you do get over it I suppose.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:37 pm**

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:53 pm Bollox. Anything that undermines the Welsh win is to be welcomed

Oh well, better than being patronised anyway.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:39 pm**

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:53 pm Bollox. Anything that undermines the Welsh win is to be welcomed

Sefton multi?

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:40 pm**

dabooldawg wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:55 pm
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:50 pm Leaving aside the more partisan takes, I'm hugely disappointed that the Italy coach would focus on the referee rather than his team's insane profligacy.
Blame him, Rassie, ROG, that frenchie, and all the other coaches if you want, but more and more are getting really frustrated with the poor quality of officiating.

There was nothing remarkable in that officiating performance. Whatever mistakes were made pale in comparison with Italy's repeated self sabotage.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:47 pm**

If we can live with the Irish pack and get the feckin ball off them our backs can do some damage

I just think that forward unit is the best in the game just now and I’m not sure we can pressure them into making rare mistakes

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:49 pm**

Wales were terrible, we should have lost that game.
Italy had the better players and are better coached.
But it was Italy that butchered a few tries and fecked up for a couple of tries.

This Wales team is thrown together and in turmoil, to lose that that shower of shit would make me angry.
But to blame the officials was crass and unhelpful going forward.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:50 pm**

Common Ireland

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:57 pm**

Mon the Jocks

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:57 pm**

I just hope both teams have fun

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:01 pm**

Thats a nice touch

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:05 pm**

Awful kick through - shame. Worse lineout though, can't afford that.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:07 pm**

WTF is the Scots hooker doing?????

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:07 pm**

Very lucky, that was embarrassing by Scotland.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:07 pm**

Lucky Scotland, that was phenomenally stupid

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:07 pm**

Turner needs to calm the fuck down.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:08 pm**

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:09 pm**

Lucky Scots, twice

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:09 pm**

What was the issue last decade in a Stormers game when a ball got thrown in and try was incorrectly ruled out - was it wrong ball or thrown in with foot over the line?

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:10 pm**

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:07 pm WTF is the Scots hooker doing?????

You'll remember Sandy, was it against the Bulls?

What was the issue last decade in a Stormers game when a ball got thrown in and try was incorrectly ruled out - was it wrong ball or thrown in with foot over the line?

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:13 pm**

Murray back to being glacier slow

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:13 pm**

Bizarre that nobody thought of this possibility when the law was being drafted.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:13 pm**

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:10 pm
Sandstorm wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:07 pm WTF is the Scots hooker doing?????
You'll remember Sandy, was it against the Bulls?

What was the issue last decade in a Stormers game when a ball got thrown in and try was incorrectly ruled out - was it wrong ball or thrown in with foot over the line?

I can’t remember what I had for breakfast, mate.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:15 pm**

EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:14 pm
fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:13 pm Murray back to being glacier slow
Some awful throws rather than glacier for me

Bit of both, and both unhelpful

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:16 pm**

Scotland have settled nicely now. Ireland looking a little off their usual.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:17 pm**

My little un has just walked in and announced that she wants Scotland to win

Now she wants me to put Peter rabbit on....

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:20 pm**

Lovely. Ireland not really getting near Scottish ball and unable to stop the quick ball.

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:20 pm**

Fucking get in Jones

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:20 pm**

Can we sub Murray now please?

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:20 pm**

Sweaties up for this. Paddies look a little flat in the pack.

7-3 Scotland
18 mins

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:20 pm**

Very good try, got ourselves a game here

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:21 pm**

Nice patient build up to that score

Posted: **Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:21 pm**

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:13 pm
TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:10 pm
Sandstorm wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:07 pm WTF is the Scots hooker doing?????
You'll remember Sandy, was it against the Bulls?

What was the issue last decade in a Stormers game when a ball got thrown in and try was incorrectly ruled out - was it wrong ball or thrown in with foot over the line?
I can’t remember what I had for breakfast, mate.

Fair enough!

Scotland very like not to be a try down and really are going to struggle without Richie I think.

But Ireland are looking beatable in attack

NPR

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