NPR

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:54 am**

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 7:43 pm Mr Foster were you watching? That's how you play rugby.

He’d watch that and ignore it.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:47 am**

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:54 am
Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 7:43 pm Mr Foster were you watching? That's how you play rugby.
He’d watch that and ignore it.

I doubt whether there much he would do about it anyway, reckon we need to find some big boys if we want to play that rugby. We kind of might get stuck if we try to play that style rugby with the size and of our tighties. I suspect we need someone like PT to come through pretty strong as Sam W and Brodie R may struggle against these young fellas, and much as I hate to say it super rugby isn't bringing through props that will handle these packs. I struggle to think of any props that would scare those packs.
But then again, we might have some come through and prove me wrong. I hope so anyway.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:33 am**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:22 pm How is Cros in this side ahead of Macalou?

Is that a serious question??

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:36 am**

Dan54 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:47 am Bloody enjoyed getting up and watching that this morning. By geez the French have got some big boys in that forward pack. They played game pretty well. Irish weren't mugs by any means, and no shame for anyone losing a match like that! You would actually wonder with the size of French pack whether the need for a real quick game is a priority to try and wear them down or something.
Keeps reminding me why I enjoy this game!

You say that, but it's misleading because of Atonio and Willemse. Baille and Marchand are quite compact and certainly not out of the ordinary for a loosie and a hooker. Woki is a flanker shoe-horned (incorrectly) at lock and will be one of the lighter ones in world rugby. Aldritt is very light for an 8. Cros I'd guess was middle to light for a flanker. Jelonch is a bit of a lump who I'd guess as being slightly above the average.

You won't wear them down because
- Woki, Aldritt, Cros and Jelonch can go forever. Esp the first two.
- Where France is massively strong now is the number of options they have on the bench for the front row e.g. at hooker, they have Mauvaka, Chat and Bourgarit who'd walk into many other sides.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:39 am**

La soule wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:33 am
Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:22 pm How is Cros in this side ahead of Macalou?
Is that a serious question??

Setting aside the continual dislike for him due to Edinburgh-gate, yes. He came on and changed the game against Cros's team on Friday. There is no better athlete in France: he's even more so than Itoje. No other side would waste him on the whim of politics.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:45 am**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:36 am Woki is a flanker shoe-horned (incorrectly) at lock and will be one of the lighter ones in world rugby.

Interesting because for all he seems to have the potential, and he may yet adapt to test rugby and return rather more successfully to the third line, he's so far come across as something of an empty shirt in the backrow. Whereas stepping in at lock, perhaps merely by simplifying the game for him, he's suddenly having a much bigger impact on games and his talent isn't going wasted

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:48 am**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:39 am
La soule wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:33 am
Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:22 pm How is Cros in this side ahead of Macalou?
Is that a serious question??
Setting aside the continual dislike for him due to Edinburgh-gate, yes. He came on and changed the game against Cros's team on Friday. There is no better athlete in France: he's even more so than Itoje. No other side would waste him on the whim of politics.

He is a supberb athlete, a physicall freak of nature
.

But

He does not have the head in the right place, is not a team player and does not commit to the team. He's had chances in the French team but under delivered every single time. He just does not appear to be able to handle this type of pressure. I don' need my 6 to spend his entire game on the fucking wing.

Cros is the opposite of that and a leader on top.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:01 am**

La soule wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:48 am He is a supberb athlete, a physicall freak of nature
.

But

He does not have the head in the right place, is not a team player and does not commit to the team. He's had chances in the French team but under delivered every single time. He just does not appear to be able to handle this type of pressure. I don' need my 6 to spend his entire game on the fucking wing.

Cros is the opposite of that and a leader on top.

He's had chances? 6 caps? 3 of them before 2021 and 2 of those in the meaningless tour to SA. 3 of them against Jap, Ita and a 2nd string Arg side.

The one serious cap he was given was in the cheating Brace loss to Eng. I agree he was very poor last time out against Arg but I wonder how much that is down to the pressure of "you get one chance son". He's the odd one out. Fra has persisted in giving players chances time and again over the years (Poitrenaud, Serin for example). Even Thomas can be argued to have had more leeway and worse discipline: Macalou was one incident. And yes, I have some bias since he is (another) Sarcelles lad.

Cros is a separate issue really. You know my view. I thought he looked promising early on but his discipline has regularly been poor: giving away dumb pens for Toulouse regularly. The back row is unbalanced: lacking craft. Cros is too similar to Jelonch. At least Woki being back there (or even Ollivon) provides a Magne type link man. On form, Lauret should be there: he's miles ahead of Cros.

As an aside:

Fabien Galthie will be delighted with the forward effort, less so that of his midfield. For the second week running Romain Ntamack offered little in terms of individual threat or match control and there’s sure to be a heated debate amongst the French supporters whether or not it’s time for Matthieu Jalibert to be reinstated following his injury comeback this week

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:06 am**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 7:03 pm
Blackmac wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 6:42 pm Aldritt comes across as a nice lad.
Yes. He is a genuinely humble bloke who works harder than any other player except maybe Villiere. He really ought to be the captain but Galthie is so desperate to shoe-horn Jelonch in (hence wasting Woki at lock) that if Ollivon were fit, Aldritt would not even be a starter.

It’s the Scottish in him. We’re all lovely.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:15 am**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:01 am
As an aside:
Fabien Galthie will be delighted with the forward effort, less so that of his midfield. For the second week running Romain Ntamack offered little in terms of individual threat or match control and there’s sure to be a heated debate amongst the French supporters whether or not it’s time for Matthieu Jalibert to be reinstated following his injury comeback this week

Not quite sure what's being alluded to by match control. The actual shape of the attack was fine, but he did make a few errors, one a bad pass which caused a fumble, that's a skill failure rather than what I'd think of as match control, he arguably made a poor decision to put in a grubber kick that hit an Irish leg, and there was one piece of crap ball he got which he didn't come close to dealing with and just shovelled still worse ball sideways and backwards.

Yes he wasn't much threat individually, but he's not going to break through the transition areas when Ireland were so physical in the tackle and breakdown, he'll present much more threat to the transition zone in other games. Other than that I thought he did okay, if anything you'd say the failings such as they were came from 12 and 15 who really need to offer more on the tactical front in the attack system France use. Smith has a very similar job to Ntamack with the system England use (yes England use it badly but it's a similar construct) and Smith has Slade to chip in. So if the match control was thought lacking, as opposed to it was just a very physical game with some handling errors and some discipline issues, you'd almost think more about Ntamack going back to 12 unless they think they can get much more from Moefana and Jaminet

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:19 am**

Dan54 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:47 am
Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:54 am
Grandpa wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 7:43 pm Mr Foster were you watching? That's how you play rugby.
He’d watch that and ignore it.
I doubt whether there much he would do about it anyway, reckon we need to find some big boys if we want to play that rugby. We kind of might get stuck if we try to play that style rugby with the size and of our tighties. I suspect we need someone like PT to come through pretty strong as Sam W and Brodie R may struggle against these young fellas, and much as I hate to say it super rugby isn't bringing through props that will handle these packs. I struggle to think of any props that would scare those packs.
But then again, we might have some come through and prove me wrong. I hope so anyway.

I think we can compete (and even beat) both France and Ireland. But not playing how we have been playing under Foster. Even in the games NZ lost last autumn there were periods where they were on top. When they were smarter... mixed it up more and varied the game with tight play and exploding loose play when it was needed. First half of the second Springbok game was good. Rather than the 100% loose play that Foster seems to favour. A different coach could turn the All Blacks into a team capable of winning the world cup. Actually Foster maybe could if he wasn't so pig headed... and had them playing smart rugby. Playing Super Rugby style at test level won't work.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:27 am**

Kudos France, absolutely smashed Ireland in the first half. I was genuinely amazed that it wasn't lights out by that stage, although the Irish try came out of nothing. The French speed off the line in defence and their ruck work completely nullified the Irish gameplan.

There is no shame in losing to a quality French side away from home but some of the Irish decision making once they got back within in a sniff was really poor. Going for 3 points when they needed a try with 8-9 mins to go was an absolute head scratcher. Fair enough if there had been 15 on the clock but that just didn't make sense, and had Sexton been on the pitch I highly doubt he'd have listened to the foolish call from the sideline. Keenan's garryowen at the end was a genuine WTAF, have you lost your mind moment. Doris' idiotic penalty under the posts was just amateur stuff and he should have been carded for being an idiot.

I think we'll learn a lot more from losing this than had we sneaked an undeserved win. Don't shit the bed when under pressure against the clock, develop a Plan B when the opposition nullify Plan A, have a much better kicking game and don't give away the same number of penalties as we did in the first half.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:37 am**

I laughed.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:34 pm**

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:15 am
Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:01 am
As an aside:
Fabien Galthie will be delighted with the forward effort, less so that of his midfield. For the second week running Romain Ntamack offered little in terms of individual threat or match control and there’s sure to be a heated debate amongst the French supporters whether or not it’s time for Matthieu Jalibert to be reinstated following his injury comeback this week

Not quite sure what's being alluded to by match control. The actual shape of the attack was fine, but he did make a few errors, one a bad pass which caused a fumble, that's a skill failure rather than what I'd think of as match control, he arguably made a poor decision to put in a grubber kick that hit an Irish leg, and there was one piece of crap ball he got which he didn't come close to dealing with and just shovelled still worse ball sideways and backwards.

Yes he wasn't much threat individually, but he's not going to break through the transition areas when Ireland were so physical in the tackle and breakdown, he'll present much more threat to the transition zone in other games. Other than that I thought he did okay, if anything you'd say the failings such as they were came from 12 and 15 who really need to offer more on the tactical front in the attack system France use. Smith has a very similar job to Ntamack with the system England use (yes England use it badly but it's a similar construct) and Smith has Slade to chip in. So if the match control was thought lacking, as opposed to it was just a very physical game with some handling errors and some discipline issues, you'd almost think more about Ntamack going back to 12 unless they think they can get much more from Moefana and Jaminet

I think a number of French players think a top 10 has Penaud's ability to break the line, side-stepping defenders inside a closet, the defensive skills of Villière when told that his opposite number has run away with his wife, the reliability and control of Wilkinson in his prime years etc...

For people like Torque, a good fly-half MUST attack the line and make line breaks to have had a good game.

Reality is that Ntamack is not at his best at the moment but he is a class 10, and one world standard 10 when on form. He has a cool head too and a big rugby brain.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:39 pm**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 9:01 am
La soule wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:48 am He is a supberb athlete, a physicall freak of nature
.

But

He does not have the head in the right place, is not a team player and does not commit to the team. He's had chances in the French team but under delivered every single time. He just does not appear to be able to handle this type of pressure. I don' need my 6 to spend his entire game on the fucking wing.

Cros is the opposite of that and a leader on top.
He's had chances? 6 caps? 3 of them before 2021 and 2 of those in the meaningless tour to SA. 3 of them against Jap, Ita and a 2nd string Arg side. The one serious cap he was given was in the cheating Brace loss to Eng. I agree he was very poor last time out against Arg but I wonder how much that is down to the pressure of "you get one chance son". He's the odd one out. Fra has persisted in giving players chances time and again over the years (Poitrenaud, Serin for example). Even Thomas can be argued to have had more leeway and worse discipline: Macalou was one incident. And yes, I have some bias since he is (another) Sarcelles lad.

Cros is a separate issue really. You know my view. I thought he looked promising early on but his discipline has regularly been poor: giving away dumb pens for Toulouse regularly. The back row is unbalanced: lacking craft. Cros is too similar to Jelonch. At least Woki being back there (or even Ollivon) provides a Magne type link man. On form, Lauret should be there: he's miles ahead of Cros.

As an aside:
Fabien Galthie will be delighted with the forward effort, less so that of his midfield. For the second week running Romain Ntamack offered little in terms of individual threat or match control and there’s sure to be a heated debate amongst the French supporters whether or not it’s time for Matthieu Jalibert to be reinstated following his injury comeback this week

Macalou is in the training squad and Galthie is keeping an eye on him. I don't know what are his reasons for dropping him for the game, but I expect that, against Ireland, he wanted a man who could do down in the trenches.

Cros is a former 9 converted to flanker. He is a pretty big bloke. He is not the shinny type but he can do everything pretty well, from jumping in the lineout, tackling and rocking and covering wide to provide support.

It was a tactical choice and I think it proved a success. Cros had a massive game and France won.

Jelonch, another favorite of you, Torque, also showed his worth in this game.

Galthie is blessed with choices and some will be left on the touch line.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:43 pm**

Oh BTW

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:45 pm**

Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:43 pm Oh BTW

Lost control of the ball

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:57 pm**

TheFrog wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:45 pm
Marylandolorian wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:43 pm Oh BTW

Lost control of the ball

It was very obviously a try but the ref put himself in a corner

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:29 pm**

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:15 am Not quite sure what's being alluded to by match control. The actual shape of the attack was fine, but he did make a few errors, one a bad pass which caused a fumble, that's a skill failure rather than what I'd think of as match control, he arguably made a poor decision to put in a grubber kick that hit an Irish leg, and there was one piece of crap ball he got which he didn't come close to dealing with and just shovelled still worse ball sideways and backwards.

Yes he wasn't much threat individually, but he's not going to break through the transition areas when Ireland were so physical in the tackle and breakdown, he'll present much more threat to the transition zone in other games. Other than that I thought he did okay, if anything you'd say the failings such as they were came from 12 and 15 who really need to offer more on the tactical front in the attack system France use. Smith has a very similar job to Ntamack with the system England use (yes England use it badly but it's a similar construct) and Smith has Slade to chip in. So if the match control was thought lacking, as opposed to it was just a very physical game with some handling errors and some discipline issues, you'd almost think more about Ntamack going back to 12 unless they think they can get much more from Moefana and Jaminet

Well, certainly Moefana is going to offer little in terms of variation at 12 any more than Danty is or even Vakatawa: it's all crash stuff really. It's why I keep suggesting Penaud at 12 (he used to play centre) because he has all the options bar the boot (but none of the others does) and then you have the option to bring Thomas back in at wing.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:34 pm**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:29 pm
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:15 am Not quite sure what's being alluded to by match control. The actual shape of the attack was fine, but he did make a few errors, one a bad pass which caused a fumble, that's a skill failure rather than what I'd think of as match control, he arguably made a poor decision to put in a grubber kick that hit an Irish leg, and there was one piece of crap ball he got which he didn't come close to dealing with and just shovelled still worse ball sideways and backwards.

Yes he wasn't much threat individually, but he's not going to break through the transition areas when Ireland were so physical in the tackle and breakdown, he'll present much more threat to the transition zone in other games. Other than that I thought he did okay, if anything you'd say the failings such as they were came from 12 and 15 who really need to offer more on the tactical front in the attack system France use. Smith has a very similar job to Ntamack with the system England use (yes England use it badly but it's a similar construct) and Smith has Slade to chip in. So if the match control was thought lacking, as opposed to it was just a very physical game with some handling errors and some discipline issues, you'd almost think more about Ntamack going back to 12 unless they think they can get much more from Moefana and Jaminet
Well, certainly Moefana is going to offer little in terms of variation at 12 any more than Danty is or even Vakatawa: it's all crash stuff really. It's why I keep suggesting Penaud at 12 (he used to play centre) because he has all the options bar the boot (but none of the others does) and then you have the option to bring Thomas back in at wing.

I can't see Penaud at 12!

Penaud at 13 makes sense. At 12?

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:39 pm**

TheFrog wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:34 pm For people like Torque, a good fly-half MUST attack the line and make line breaks to have had a good game.

Reality is that Ntamack is not at his best at the moment but he is a class 10, and one world standard 10 when on form. He has a cool head too and a big rugby brain.

No. That's sh*t and goes entirely against everything I've posted on the subject on PRx for 30 years. I prefer a FH with a brain and tactical kicking game over an occasionally effectively flash Michalak or Russell (whole thread on him). Especially with all the firepower France has elsewhere. My issue with Ntamack is he's excused the kicking entirely (all done by Dupont or Jaminet) and so he's there because of his attacking threat. Except we've seen none bar the try against the ABs, the wrap around v Italy and his part in yesterday's opening try. 3 threats in 240 minutes?

If he's not at his best, why is he in the side? And I absolutely disagree: he does not have a rugby brain at all. Or, if he has, he's never shown the playing ability to execute what he is thinking. Ntamack is the reason the fwds and backs are failing to link (unless you want to blame Dupont but good luck with that argument). I tell you who has a cool head and a rugby brain though: Gibert.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:41 pm**

TheFrog wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:34 pm I can't see Penaud at 12!

Penaud at 13 makes sense. At 12?

He can't go to 13. Because that's where the entire backline defensive pattern is controlled from and Penaud is thick as sh*t whereas Fickou is not.

France are playing a straight fwd gain-line breaker at 12. Penaud can do that in Spades but also has the ability to step and pass too. Vakatawa's passing (for a 7s player) is pretty ordinary. Not Fofana levels of sh*tness, but ordinary.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:00 pm**

France are just so good now they deserve a Grand Slam and they could dominate European rugby for a while.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:05 pm**

Zig wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:00 pm France are just so good now they deserve a Grand Slam and they could dominate European rugby for a while.

Don't know about that but the efforts to bring through young players rather than loading teams with mercs coupled with a belated change in attitudes to fitness are showing some reward at ntl level.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:05 pm**

So, Torque, you would have Gibert at 10 for France now?

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:06 pm**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:41 pm
TheFrog wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:34 pm I can't see Penaud at 12!

Penaud at 13 makes sense. At 12?
He can't go to 13. Because that's where the entire backline defensive pattern is controlled from and Penaud is thick as sh*t whereas Fickou is not.

France are playing a straight fwd gain-line breaker at 12. Penaud can do that in Spades but also has the ability to step and pass too. Vakatawa's passing (for a 7s player) is pretty ordinary. Not Fofana levels of sh*tness, but ordinary.

Penaud at 12 means line-break, isolated, turn-over or penalty.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:06 pm**

TheFrog wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:05 pm So, Torque, you would have Gibert at 10 for France now?

That's not what I said. And anyway, he's being forced to play 9. What I want is Jalibert back next game.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:27 pm**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:39 pm
TheFrog wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:34 pm For people like Torque, a good fly-half MUST attack the line and make line breaks to have had a good game.

Reality is that Ntamack is not at his best at the moment but he is a class 10, and one world standard 10 when on form. He has a cool head too and a big rugby brain.
No. That's sh*t and goes entirely against everything I've posted on the subject on PRx for 30 years. I prefer a FH with a brain and tactical kicking game over an occasionally effectively flash Michalak or Russell (whole thread on him). Especially with all the firepower France has elsewhere. My issue with Ntamack is he's excused the kicking entirely (all done by Dupont or Jaminet) and so he's there because of his attacking threat. Except we've seen none bar the try against the ABs, the wrap around v Italy and his part in yesterday's opening try. 3 threats in 240 minutes?

If he's not at his best, why is he in the side? And I absolutely disagree: he does not have a rugby brain at all. Or, if he has, he's never shown the playing ability to execute what he is thinking. Ntamack is the reason the fwds and backs are failing to link (unless you want to blame Dupont but good luck with that argument). I tell you who has a cool head and a rugby brain though: Gibert.

You have posted something up which criticises his game management and then you skirt over it. Dupont gets credit for the wide pass out to the wing as a for instance, but it's Ntamack who calls the play heading back that way. He is running large parts of the game even if he's not touching the ball given how the screen of forwards is used, and that's very impressive in the French system because it's asking a huge amount of a 10 isolated without other decision makers

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:50 pm**

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:27 pm
You have posted something up which criticises his game management and then you skirt over it. Dupont gets credit for the wide pass out to the wing as a for instance, but it's Ntamack who calls the play heading back that way. He is running large parts of the game even if he's not touching the ball given how the screen of forwards is used, and that's very impressive in the French system because it's asking a huge amount of a 10 isolated without other decision makers

This.
Ntamack was very discreet this weekend again, but he’s a very reliable FH.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:51 pm**

Glad to see the values haven’t changed yet , at least with some.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:01 pm**

Grandpa wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:19 am
Dan54 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:47 am
Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:54 am

He’d watch that and ignore it.
I doubt whether there much he would do about it anyway, reckon we need to find some big boys if we want to play that rugby. We kind of might get stuck if we try to play that style rugby with the size and of our tighties. I suspect we need someone like PT to come through pretty strong as Sam W and Brodie R may struggle against these young fellas, and much as I hate to say it super rugby isn't bringing through props that will handle these packs. I struggle to think of any props that would scare those packs.
But then again, we might have some come through and prove me wrong. I hope so anyway.
I think we can compete (and even beat) both France and Ireland. But not playing how we have been playing under Foster. Even in the games NZ lost last autumn there were periods where they were on top. When they were smarter... mixed it up more and varied the game with tight play and exploding loose play when it was needed. First half of the second Springbok game was good. Rather than the 100% loose play that Foster seems to favour. A different coach could turn the All Blacks into a team capable of winning the world cup. Actually Foster maybe could if he wasn't so pig headed... and had them playing smart rugby. Playing Super Rugby style at test level won't work.

When I suggest taking on these teams I not suggeting we play helter skelter, but more uptempo, quicker lineouts etc etc. I kind of thought about it a bot after reading Shag Hansen's book (quite ineresting too I thought), he reckoned one of his regrets/mistakes in 2019 when we lost to Poms in WC was starting Sam W and not Sam Cane and have Scott Barrett at lock, have big Sam coming off bench. I actually wonder maybe one of reasons that Sam W missed captaincy under Foster, he was too worried about him lasting to next WC. Not saying it is reason or if it wrong or right, just made me think a little. And I do think in a test against France or Irish we need to be faster etc, and that includes being fast enough (fit?) enough to counter ruck.
But my experience at coaching above senior club level can be written about on a pinhead with a felt pen, so I only guessing what I think is wrong, and I quite happy to admit that. Just what I saw on weekend, I didn't see a lot of French players that I thought were lesser players than we could field in ABs , which is a worry to me. I think maybe our problem is not only coaching and may also be that we simply not quite good enough in player depth (especially in tighties)? That could also be proved wrong (I hope) when the boys come out fresh etc again this season.

Posted: **Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:16 pm**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:36 am
Dan54 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:47 am Bloody enjoyed getting up and watching that this morning. By geez the French have got some big boys in that forward pack. They played game pretty well. Irish weren't mugs by any means, and no shame for anyone losing a match like that! You would actually wonder with the size of French pack whether the need for a real quick game is a priority to try and wear them down or something.
Keeps reminding me why I enjoy this game!
You say that, but it's misleading because of Atonio and Willemse. Baille and Marchand are quite compact and certainly not out of the ordinary for a loosie and a hooker. Woki is a flanker shoe-horned (incorrectly) at lock and will be one of the lighter ones in world rugby. Aldritt is very light for an 8. Cros I'd guess was middle to light for a flanker. Jelonch is a bit of a lump who I'd guess as being slightly above the average.

You won't wear them down because
- Woki, Aldritt, Cros and Jelonch can go forever. Esp the first two.
- Where France is massively strong now is the number of options they have on the bench for the front row e.g. at hooker, they have Mauvaka, Chat and Bourgarit who'd walk into many other sides.

I think in rugby when the tight 5 of one team is 30 kg heavier you would have to think either one team pretty small (which I don't think Ireland are) or the other one are reasonably big. Before I knew the weight difference I was pretty taken aback at the size of French team. I don't think I noticed it in loosies , but set piece time I had impression they were sucking a lot of energy out of Irish, I not downplaying how good they are, just another strength of theirs as I alway believe in rugby the good big fellas(and they are good) will beat good smaller fellas. You also right they have bloody great depth, and don't look to have a problem when swapping players. They actually generally showed this a few years back when all these players were coming through winning the U20s WC etc 2018-19, they were a bloody good big pack with bloody good backline, warning bells were going then how good they were going to be.

Posted: **Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:26 am**

Dan54 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:01 pm
Grandpa wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:19 am
Dan54 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:47 am

I doubt whether there much he would do about it anyway, reckon we need to find some big boys if we want to play that rugby. We kind of might get stuck if we try to play that style rugby with the size and of our tighties. I suspect we need someone like PT to come through pretty strong as Sam W and Brodie R may struggle against these young fellas, and much as I hate to say it super rugby isn't bringing through props that will handle these packs. I struggle to think of any props that would scare those packs.
But then again, we might have some come through and prove me wrong. I hope so anyway.
I think we can compete (and even beat) both France and Ireland. But not playing how we have been playing under Foster. Even in the games NZ lost last autumn there were periods where they were on top. When they were smarter... mixed it up more and varied the game with tight play and exploding loose play when it was needed. First half of the second Springbok game was good. Rather than the 100% loose play that Foster seems to favour. A different coach could turn the All Blacks into a team capable of winning the world cup. Actually Foster maybe could if he wasn't so pig headed... and had them playing smart rugby. Playing Super Rugby style at test level won't work.
When I suggest taking on these teams I not suggeting we play helter skelter, but more uptempo, quicker lineouts etc etc. I kind of thought about it a bot after reading Shag Hansen's book (quite ineresting too I thought), he reckoned one of his regrets/mistakes in 2019 when we lost to Poms in WC was starting Sam W and not Sam Cane and have Scott Barrett at lock, have big Sam coming off bench. I actually wonder maybe one of reasons that Sam W missed captaincy under Foster, he was too worried about him lasting to next WC. Not saying it is reason or if it wrong or right, just made me think a little. And I do think in a test against France or Irish we need to be faster etc, and that includes being fast enough (fit?) enough to counter ruck.
But my experience at coaching above senior club level can be written about on a pinhead with a felt pen, so I only guessing what I think is wrong, and I quite happy to admit that. Just what I saw on weekend, I didn't see a lot of French players that I thought were lesser players than we could field in ABs , which is a worry to me. I think maybe our problem is not only coaching and may also be that we simply not quite good enough in player depth (especially in tighties)? That could also be proved wrong (I hope) when the boys come out fresh etc again this season.

So Hansen was thinking of dropping Sam Whitelock for Scott Barrett in the semi final of a WC...?
Something he had never done before... that's just weird..

Maybe we do have to start developing different (bigger?) Players in the tight... But I still think it's a technical and tactical issue. Which may not be corrected until after 2023...

Posted: **Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:33 am**

I'm sure we could carry this discussion out in a dedicated NZ rugby thread, rather than clog up a thread addressing a specific match in a totally foreign tournament...

yeah?

Posted: **Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:48 am**

Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:26 am
Dan54 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:01 pm
Grandpa wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:19 am

I think we can compete (and even beat) both France and Ireland. But not playing how we have been playing under Foster. Even in the games NZ lost last autumn there were periods where they were on top. When they were smarter... mixed it up more and varied the game with tight play and exploding loose play when it was needed. First half of the second Springbok game was good. Rather than the 100% loose play that Foster seems to favour. A different coach could turn the All Blacks into a team capable of winning the world cup. Actually Foster maybe could if he wasn't so pig headed... and had them playing smart rugby. Playing Super Rugby style at test level won't work.
When I suggest taking on these teams I not suggeting we play helter skelter, but more uptempo, quicker lineouts etc etc. I kind of thought about it a bot after reading Shag Hansen's book (quite ineresting too I thought), he reckoned one of his regrets/mistakes in 2019 when we lost to Poms in WC was starting Sam W and not Sam Cane and have Scott Barrett at lock, have big Sam coming off bench. I actually wonder maybe one of reasons that Sam W missed captaincy under Foster, he was too worried about him lasting to next WC. Not saying it is reason or if it wrong or right, just made me think a little. And I do think in a test against France or Irish we need to be faster etc, and that includes being fast enough (fit?) enough to counter ruck.
But my experience at coaching above senior club level can be written about on a pinhead with a felt pen, so I only guessing what I think is wrong, and I quite happy to admit that. Just what I saw on weekend, I didn't see a lot of French players that I thought were lesser players than we could field in ABs , which is a worry to me. I think maybe our problem is not only coaching and may also be that we simply not quite good enough in player depth (especially in tighties)? That could also be proved wrong (I hope) when the boys come out fresh etc again this season.
So Hansen was thinking of dropping Sam Whitelock for Scott Barrett in the semi final of a WC...?
Something he had never done before... that's just weird..

Maybe we do have to start developing different (bigger?) Players in the tight... But I still think it's a technical and tactical issue. Which may not be corrected until after 2023...

Well he says he thinks the mistake he made was not starting Sam Cane at 7 with Barrett and Retallic as locks with Sam W coming off bench. Doesn't actually say he was thinking of it, just says he thinks it was a mistake to leave Sam Cane out, he said he thought it when Sam W gave up stupid penalty by pushhing Farrell and getting penalty reversed. Not that wierd many people have commented that Sam did seem to be pretty tired.
I agree we seem to need bigger players in tight, the size of players is getting bigger every year, not ncessarily taller but bulkier?
Let's face it ,it's been happening for years, not saying I like it, but it's a fact of life. In fact I dislike it a lot, we going away from a skilled based game to contact being too much. I always remember Brad Thorn saying even the difference in size of player between him going back to league and returning to rugby stunned him.

Posted: **Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:23 am**

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:06 pm
TheFrog wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:05 pm So, Torque, you would have Gibert at 10 for France now?
That's not what I said. And anyway, he's being forced to play 9. What I want is Jalibert back next game.

Because Jalibert is better at managing a game than Ntamack, and a better kicker too?

And not an attacking fly-half?

Posted: **Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:46 am**

TheFrog wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:23 am
Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:06 pm
TheFrog wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:05 pm So, Torque, you would have Gibert at 10 for France now?
That's not what I said. And anyway, he's being forced to play 9. What I want is Jalibert back next game.
Because Jalibert is better at managing a game than Ntamack, and a better kicker too?

And not an attacking fly-half?

We are very lucky to have some very decent options at FH after years of drought. Jalibert is flashier than NTamack but at this stage, the later's game management is stronger and his club association with Dupont gives him the edge.

Then you have Hastoy, Berdeu, Carbonnel etc...

Posted: **Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:28 am**

La soule wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:46 am
TheFrog wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:23 am
Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:06 pm

That's not what I said. And anyway, he's being forced to play 9. What I want is Jalibert back next game.
Because Jalibert is better at managing a game than Ntamack, and a better kicker too?

And not an attacking fly-half?
We are very lucky to have some very decent options at FH after years of drought. Jalibert is flashier than NTamack but at this stage, the later's game management is stronger and his club association with Dupont gives him the edge.

Then you have Hastoy, Berdeu, Carbonnel etc...

I'm just not buying that. Almost the reverse. Ntamack's weak kicking game means his game management is more limited. Did you guys even watch some of his recent games? e.g. against Wasps who were down to 14 men for most of the game OR Cardiff who fielded a 3rd team (in that game, Ntamack was out thought and out played by an amateur/part timer FH FFS). And it's been like that most of this season. It's Ntamack who does the odd bit of flash (e.g. v the ABs).

And yes, you'd think his playing with Dupont regularly would make things better but the evidence of Toulouse's play this season says not. BTW, sadly Carbonel and Belleau are both going backwards as is the whole of RCT at present.

So yes
1) There is zero doubt Jalibert is a better kicker because I'm struggling to think of many worse tactical kickers in T14 than Ntamack
2) And he is certainly better at managing a game when things are not going to plan and the situation needs reading. Ntamack can follow an instruction but when that's not working (e.g. the Wasps game), he is incapable of adapting.

Posted: **Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:15 am**

As you probably guess, I watched quite a few games of Toulouse and not only the last 2 games when the team has been under extreme pressure and played very little rugby due to Covid etc...

You are on the hyperbole again.

NTamack is more composed and his overall game management is better.

You like flash and that's fine too. They are both excellent players.

Posted: **Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:13 pm**

La soule wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:15 am As you probably guess, I watched quite a few games of Toulouse and not only the last 2 games when the team has been under extreme pressure and played very little rugby due to Covid etc...

You are on the hyperbole again.

NTamack is more composed and his overall game management is better.

You like flash and that's fine too. They are both excellent players.

Come on he is not FF

NPR

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