Ymx wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:20 pm
I think there’s times to be more balanced/neutral, but after a murderous rampage on civilians, I’d say anyone waving a Palestine flag on the back of this has to be a fvcking cvnt.
I’ve not seen Palestinian mutilated civilian bodies being paraded around by Israelis. And I’ve certainly not seen people waving Israeli flags across the world immediately after such an event. That would be equally fvcking sick.
Thank you.
I didn’t want to pry earlier, but it strikes me as this has heavily affected you/family.
A page before you posted this you went on a rant about how extremism can flourish and operate without the support of the masses. Now you’re saying the opposite.
You’re an incredibly offensive loon who consistently acts in bad faith.
I think you're a bit dull. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain that extremism can do both; with the support of the masses and without, there was a whole conversation about it. I'm not the one acting in bad faith here, you are.
Can you explain what you meant in your ‘not buying it’ comment then? Specifically your assertion that the people of Gaza are complicit?
I did explain it, read the thread and the bit I posted about the dead German girl and the hundreds of locals celebrating her death and the deaths of 260 other young people. Another poster, like you, wanted to minimise their involvement. Many Gazans don't support Hamas, many Gazans do. That's not good or bad faith, that's the truth.
If you really want you can google the latest support for Hamas in terms of a poll carried out in 2021 by the PCPSR
Ymx wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:20 pm
I think there’s times to be more balanced/neutral, but after a murderous rampage on civilians, I’d say anyone waving a Palestine flag on the back of this has to be a fvcking cvnt.
I’ve not seen Palestinian mutilated civilian bodies being paraded around by Israelis. And I’ve certainly not seen people waving Israeli flags across the world immediately after such an event. That would be equally fvcking sick.
Thank you.
I didn’t want to pry earlier, but it strikes me as this has heavily affected you/family.
Be informative to hear your views.
My view is that there are no good answers, only bad ones and worse ones. But to me the least bad option is a full ground invasion, with reoccupation of Gaza, dismantling of Hamas and a full denazification program with the building of peaceful Palestinian institutions. The saddest thing for me is that this shows what a failure the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza was in 2005. I was a big supporter of the withdrawal at the time. How could dismantling the settlements in Gaza and withdrawing the IDF not lead to peace and a better future? Instead it has led to the opposite, and not just for Israelis but also for Palestinians living there. My problem was viewing the conflict through a Western lends rather than a Middle Eastern one. Strength plays a much bigger role than we'd like to admit. And conversely, moves that get nothing in return are viewed as weak and punished accordingly. So the answer has to be from a show and position of strength, unfortunately. The other thing I didn't realize at the time was just deep Jew hatred ran in both Palestinian society and much of the Arab world. It goes back much longer than 1948 and while much of Jewish history in Arab lands was not as bad as it was in Europe, it was hardly some utopia either. Denazification would be a multi-decade project.
The other view, which is perhaps more hopeful, is that this will shift Israeli public opinion from indifference to the extremists in the West Bank to seeing them for the threat they are, which includes getting Ben Gvir and his group of racist fuckwits out of government. I don't see too many trying to play the blame game yet as there is unity at the moment, but when the investigations are done it's going to be clear that the IDF was too busy putting out fires started by extremist settlers (Ben Gvir's base) in the West Bank to properly protect the Gaza border and that is partly what caused this massacre to happen. The other key is to get the ultra-Orthodox out of government so they can stop avoiding conscription. I'm hearing a lot of anger about that from secular Israelis, more than in the past.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:09 pm
by David in Gwent
I say this tentatively; In order to start a real healing peace process in the ME, is the key to it all to get rid of the Iranian regime? The Iranians seem to want change and to be rid of the clerics.
I didn’t want to pry earlier, but it strikes me as this has heavily affected you/family.
Be informative to hear your views.
My view is that there are no good answers, only bad ones and worse ones. But to me the least bad option is a full ground invasion, with reoccupation of Gaza, dismantling of Hamas and a full denazification program with the building of peaceful Palestinian institutions. The saddest thing for me is that this shows what a failure the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza was in 2005. I was a big supporter of the withdrawal at the time. How could dismantling the settlements in Gaza and withdrawing the IDF not lead to peace and a better future? Instead it has led to the opposite, and not just for Israelis but also for Palestinians living there. My problem was viewing the conflict through a Western lends rather than a Middle Eastern one. Strength plays a much bigger role than we'd like to admit. And conversely, moves that get nothing in return are viewed as weak and punished accordingly. So the answer has to be from a show and position of strength, unfortunately. The other thing I didn't realize at the time was just deep Jew hatred ran in both Palestinian society and much of the Arab world. It goes back much longer than 1948 and while much of Jewish history in Arab lands was not as bad as it was in Europe, it was hardly some utopia either. Denazification would be a multi-decade project.
The other view, which is perhaps more hopeful, is that this will shift Israeli public opinion from indifference to the extremists in the West Bank to seeing them for the threat they are, which includes getting Ben Gvir and his group of racist fuckwits out of government. I don't see too many trying to play the blame game yet as there is unity at the moment, but when the investigations are done it's going to be clear that the IDF was too busy putting out fires started by extremist settlers (Ben Gvir's base) in the West Bank to properly protect the Gaza border and that is partly what caused this massacre to happen. The other key is to get the ultra-Orthodox out of government so they can stop avoiding conscription. I'm hearing a lot of anger about that from secular Israelis, more than in the past.
Was looking at this yesterday about the Haavara Agreement of 1933, and whilst that's not going back much further:
Meanwhile, in Mandatory Palestine, a growing Jewish population (174,610 in 1931, rising to 384,078 in 1936[11]) was acquiring land and developing the structures of a future Jewish state despite opposition from the Arab population.
Seems that 1936-39 really saw the beginning of the organised rejection of the plan to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine
Relative quiet reigned until the Peel Commission reported in July 1937. It horrified Palestinians. The Zionist movement were to be given 20% of Palestinian land for a Jewish state. This was the area where the Zionists owned most land. It also happened to be the most fertile part of the country. The rest of Mandate Palestine was to be annexed to Transjordan across the river. The British were to keep control of Jerusalem and Bethlehem. The report also proposed the transfer of 225,000 Palestinians out of the ‘Jewish’ area to the enlarged Transjordan (and 1,250 Jews into the Jewish area). The transfer proposal was at the suggestion of the Zionist leaders. “I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it”, said Ben-Gurion a year later.
The Zionists were divided. The Revisionists rejected the Peel Commission proposals out of hand as did some Labour Zionists. The majority accepted them, under the influence of Ben Gurion: they were a basis for negotiation. But Pandora’s Box had been opened. Partition and ethnic cleansing were now on the agenda.
The Arab Higher Committee rejected the Peel plan. What right did the British have to give away any Palestinian territory to foreign settlers? The revolt reignited in September. At the end of the month the Arab Higher Committee was made illegal. Many of its members fled the country. The Grand Mufti went to Lebanon, eventually ending up in Nazi Germany. He then became a propaganda tool for Nazi Barbarism. His anti-Zionism became anti-Semitism. Of course the Zionists continue to make great play of Hajj Amin al-Husseini’s collaboration with the Third Reich, notwithstanding the fact that the Zionists had made the Haavara agreement with Nazi Germany during the 1930s as described in my previous piece.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:19 pm
by Slick
David in Gwent wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:09 pm
I say this tentatively; In order to start a real healing peace process in the ME, is the key to it all to get rid of the Iranian regime? The Iranians seem to want change and to be rid of the clerics.
Regime change in the Middle East? That sounds a cracking idea
David in Gwent wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:09 pm
I say this tentatively; In order to start a real healing peace process in the ME, is the key to it all to get rid of the Iranian regime? The Iranians seem to want change and to be rid of the clerics.
Regime change in the Middle East? That sounds a cracking idea
Yeah, and it would upset the Sunni/Shia schism which is the actual root cause for many problems in the ME>
I didn’t want to pry earlier, but it strikes me as this has heavily affected you/family.
Be informative to hear your views.
My view is that there are no good answers, only bad ones and worse ones. But to me the least bad option is a full ground invasion, with reoccupation of Gaza, dismantling of Hamas and a full denazification program with the building of peaceful Palestinian institutions. The saddest thing for me is that this shows what a failure the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza was in 2005. I was a big supporter of the withdrawal at the time. How could dismantling the settlements in Gaza and withdrawing the IDF not lead to peace and a better future? Instead it has led to the opposite, and not just for Israelis but also for Palestinians living there. My problem was viewing the conflict through a Western lends rather than a Middle Eastern one. Strength plays a much bigger role than we'd like to admit. And conversely, moves that get nothing in return are viewed as weak and punished accordingly. So the answer has to be from a show and position of strength, unfortunately. The other thing I didn't realize at the time was just deep Jew hatred ran in both Palestinian society and much of the Arab world. It goes back much longer than 1948 and while much of Jewish history in Arab lands was not as bad as it was in Europe, it was hardly some utopia either. Denazification would be a multi-decade project.
The other view, which is perhaps more hopeful, is that this will shift Israeli public opinion from indifference to the extremists in the West Bank to seeing them for the threat they are, which includes getting Ben Gvir and his group of racist fuckwits out of government. I don't see too many trying to play the blame game yet as there is unity at the moment, but when the investigations are done it's going to be clear that the IDF was too busy putting out fires started by extremist settlers (Ben Gvir's base) in the West Bank to properly protect the Gaza border and that is partly what caused this massacre to happen. The other key is to get the ultra-Orthodox out of government so they can stop avoiding conscription. I'm hearing a lot of anger about that from secular Israelis, more than in the past.
Is there recognition in Israel generally that building up Hamas in order to undermine the Palestinian Authority was a mistake?
The guys I work with were a bit divided on this.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 4:19 pm
by David in Gwent
I'm probably naive but I find it mind blowing that Egypt built a border wall with Gaza in order to prevent extremists from entering the Sinai Peninsula, in fact, the whole article is mind blowing.
David in Gwent wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:09 pm
I say this tentatively; In order to start a real healing peace process in the ME, is the key to it all to get rid of the Iranian regime?
A lot of the mess in the ME is a direct (and indirect) consequence of the meddling of the west.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:23 pm
by goeagles
Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:31 pm
Is there recognition in Israel generally that building up Hamas in order to undermine the Palestinian Authority was a mistake?
The guys I work with were a bit divided on this.
In a way, yes. I mean right now they're about to go in and dismantle Hamas so implicitly that does make it a mistake but I don't hear discussions about the previous Netanyahu Hamas policy directly. Right now the focus is more on unity and security to counter the immediate threat. There will be plenty of time for investigations, debate and finger pointing once that threat is eliminated.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:25 pm
by Raggs
They weren't an armed group when Israel built them up. If I recall correctly they arrested the guy they'd been supporting when they discovered him with weapons.
David in Gwent wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:09 pm
I say this tentatively; In order to start a real healing peace process in the ME, is the key to it all to get rid of the Iranian regime?
A lot of the mess in the ME is a direct (and indirect) consequence of the meddling of the west.
I thought you'd been told not to quote me?
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:54 pm
by Ymx
The whole “don’t quote him” stuff is genuinely quite pathetic schoolyard stuff.
Yup.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:09 pm
by robmatic
David in Gwent wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:09 pm
I say this tentatively; In order to start a real healing peace process in the ME, is the key to it all to get rid of the Iranian regime? The Iranians seem to want change and to be rid of the clerics.
Probably not, even assuming that wouldn't be a total shitshow, the other Gulf countries also sponsor various amounts of sketchy stuff as they compete with each other and they generally all hate Israel.
David in Gwent wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:09 pm
I say this tentatively; In order to start a real healing peace process in the ME, is the key to it all to get rid of the Iranian regime?
Oh Christ, now it’s suggesting children have been burned alive.
I just saw a picture on Twitter and I’m not posting it.
It was posted by an account called @IsraelWarRoom 4 hours ago.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:35 pm
by goeagles
Ymx wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:33 pm
Oh Christ, now it’s suggesting children have been burned alive.
I just saw a picture on Twitter and I’m not posting it.
It was posted by an account called “libs of TikTok” 4 hours ago.
Libs of TikTok is a bit dodgy so I'd wait for more confirmation on that but it wouldn't surprise. There are no words to describe the type of evil that was perpetrated and that is being celebrated by many Palestinian "supporters" around the world.
Ymx wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:33 pm
Oh Christ, now it’s suggesting children have been burned alive.
I just saw a picture on Twitter and I’m not posting it.
It was posted by an account called “libs of TikTok” 4 hours ago.
Libs of TikTok is a bit dodgy so I'd wait for more confirmation on that but it wouldn't surprise. There are no words to describe the type of evil that was perpetrated and that is being celebrated by many Palestinian "supporters" around the world.
I just edited it as it came from @IsraelWarRoom - posted it 4 hours ago. A lot of scrolling. But you can’t unsee it.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:14 pm
by David in Gwent
I wonder if Gazans are aware what Hamas did in their name? I wonder if they know.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:34 pm
by fishfoodie
Are we going to pretend that awful shit like this hasn't happened in every other significant conflict in this century, & all the previous centuries ?
There just weren't so many scumbags taking pictures on the phones of war porn, & propaganda operations pushing the story.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:37 pm
by David in Gwent
fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:34 pm
Are we going to pretend that awful shit like this hasn't happened in every other significant conflict in this century, & all the previous centuries ?
There just weren't so many scumbags taking pictures on the phones of war porn, & propaganda operations pushing the story.
fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:34 pm
Are we going to pretend that awful shit like this hasn't happened in every other significant conflict in this century, & all the previous centuries ?
There just weren't so many scumbags taking pictures on the phones of war porn, & propaganda operations pushing the story.
Let's argue that point out. Sabra and Shatila was carried out by a militia while the IDF looked on amd didnt intervene. It was a horrific crime that Israel is directly blamed for which has always been a slight stretch but on balance fair. It is repeatedly brought up as an example of the inhumanity of Israel. Nobody says 'Ah sure these things happen'
They don't but it is important to realise that by large these events are rarer than they were.
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:28 pm
by David in Gwent
It's interesting to observe the behaviour on Twitter(X) The UK left now seem to be getting their wagons into a circle and declaring that Hamas isn't Palestine and Palestine isn't Hamas and I don't think people are falling for it. At all.
fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:34 pm
Are we going to pretend that awful shit like this hasn't happened in every other significant conflict in this century, & all the previous centuries ?
There just weren't so many scumbags taking pictures on the phones of war porn, & propaganda operations pushing the story.
Let's argue that point out. Sabra and Shatila was carried out by a militia while the IDF looked on amd didnt intervene. It was a horrific crime that Israel is directly blamed for which has always been a slight stretch but on balance fair. It is repeatedly brought up as an example of the inhumanity of Israel. Nobody says 'Ah sure these things happen'
They don't but it is important to realise that by large these events are rarer than they were.
Perhaps rarer, but so much more efficient these days !
One F-16 pilot can kill a hundred children with the press of a button.
One tank gunner can kill a dozen with that press of a button, & the IDF has regiments of them.
We know already hundreds have died around Gaza, & we know hundreds have died in Gaza, they're all dead, how they died is a field on a death certificate. Every death is a tragedy, & each one just highlights the failures of leadership.
Right now, the only thing slowing yet another ground offensive into Gaza, is the human shields Hamas took; which to them justifies the action, & means they'll no doubt use it again if they get an opportunity. When the offensive starts, innocent civilians will start to die in great big batches
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:36 pm
by David in Gwent
Yeah, no.
Once the hostages have been eliminated or liberated then there will be nothing left for Hamas to feel justified about, there will be nothing left of Hamas.
And for what?
Re: Kicking off in Israel
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:03 pm
by Slick
David in Gwent wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:14 pm
I wonder if Gazans are aware what Hamas did in their name? I wonder if they know.
Well according to you they are all in on it, so you would think so
The vast majority hate the regime, but what your binary, non thinking, outlook on everything doesn’t take into account is that they also love Iran and being Iranian. So any “why don’t we just get rid of the regime” type statements are, unsurprisingly, very stupid.
EnergiseR2 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 1:17 pm
Formal war declared. I am still not sure what Hamas were at. Derail the Israeli Saudi detente? Try and spark a full war? Why would they feel now is the time for that. The Republican posturing is predictable but Christ its unfortunate for Biden the year before an election. Support for Israel is a bit more fragmented in the states than it was before but in the round they lean heavily that way: 55% to 26% support Palestine. Granted that's a high for the latter. Also that 26% is pre dead hippy girl being sat and spat on. That's so bad all the Palestinian leadership can do is pretend it wasn't them. Say it's a false flag or some Russkie type bollox. The dead granny's they can explain away but that's violently toxic. To be honest it's an image I will never have leave me. I am more nuanced than our David from.Gwent or De Santis but fuck me it's horrific
