2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[CM11]

I have no skin in the game so not going to argue too much between yellow and red but these discussions get killed dead with what they're trialling in the SH. Just a no brainer for me, to be honest.

[PornDog]

Probably this one too: An effort to wrap / bind and having no time to adjust.

Nah, calling bollox on that one. If we're being incredibly generous, his arm was at most at 45° angle (more like 30°) from his body. Now I don't think there is a definition for when a shoulder becomes a wrapped tackle, but for my money that's not enough (feel the hardness of your own shoulder at 45° vs 70° - big difference, in hardness and contact area).

PLUS - he clearly twists his body entering into the actual contact, meaning instead of being directly to his side his arm goes back and shoulder goes forward, negating what little benefit that even 45° brought to the collision in the first place. He leads with his shoulder. That's an act of foul play and more than any other single aspect of the collision (well besides the actual head contact), means its was correct to be a red card.


More than any individual player, this is a consistent failing fo coaches, and by extension, a failure by World Rubgy to properly communicate HOW NOT TO FUCKING TACKLE SOMEONE!!

Players are doing these stupid things more from instinct than actual deliberate thought, because this stupidity hasn't been coached out of them yet. World Rugby needs to step up and start doing instructional videos like they did with the "forward pass" "momentum" clarifications a few years ago.

Don't stick your fucking shoulder into someone, let alone their head!

I mean, I've said it was probs a red, don't get me wrong. As I said, my issue was that I didn't think it was as clear cut as the officials seemed to.

but, hang on, it sounds like you think it was an illegal tackle even if it wasn't high? Or have I misunderstood you?

I mean they only ever get called when its high, despite being incredibly common, but yes I absolutely do. Just before contact he clearly slightly twists his body and leans his shoulder into the contact point. The arm is barely away from his side. So yes, it was absolutely an illegal contact regardless.

Now, I have a lot of sympathy for players in these situations because they've been allowed get away with this type of contact for so long that they have become almost ubiquitous - hence why I think World Rugby need to come out at this stage and clearly tell people to stop dropping the shoulder into people.

[Marylandolorian]

There was clear mitigation. No idea why Joy didn't point it out.

Made for a cracking game though. Really feel for Montpellier. Dug deep to get the draw and then had it all but won only to have it grasped from their hands at the death.

What's the clear mitigation?

Low level of danger. He was standing still waiting to absorb the hit. The other tackler moved the position of the attacker's head into his shoulder.

Personally I think any opportunity to mitigate should be taken. It's why I'm in favour of the 20 min red card bin and the trial they've implemented in the SH.

Low level of danger, I agree, but for this kind of action the refs have to give a red now.

[Paddington Bear]

Have now watched the Exeter game. Brace honestly isn’t terrible at all, at one stage Montpellier had a penalty count heavily in their favour. Exeter probably got lucky on a couple of scrum pens but that’s all but the sum of it.

The red is a soft one but you can’t tackle like that. This isn’t new and Mercer can do better than get himself into that situation, none of this is new now. I wouldn’t have been shocked to see it given as a yellow but equally he can have few complaints. Entertaining game overall

[OomStruisbaai]

Braai Army to support the Stormers in Exeter

https://www.braainationtravel.com/exete ... rs-tickets

[Simian]

Nah, calling bollox on that one. If we're being incredibly generous, his arm was at most at 45° angle (more like 30°) from his body. Now I don't think there is a definition for when a shoulder becomes a wrapped tackle, but for my money that's not enough (feel the hardness of your own shoulder at 45° vs 70° - big difference, in hardness and contact area).

PLUS - he clearly twists his body entering into the actual contact, meaning instead of being directly to his side his arm goes back and shoulder goes forward, negating what little benefit that even 45° brought to the collision in the first place. He leads with his shoulder. That's an act of foul play and more than any other single aspect of the collision (well besides the actual head contact), means its was correct to be a red card.


More than any individual player, this is a consistent failing fo coaches, and by extension, a failure by World Rubgy to properly communicate HOW NOT TO FUCKING TACKLE SOMEONE!!

Players are doing these stupid things more from instinct than actual deliberate thought, because this stupidity hasn't been coached out of them yet. World Rugby needs to step up and start doing instructional videos like they did with the "forward pass" "momentum" clarifications a few years ago.

Don't stick your fucking shoulder into someone, let alone their head!

I mean, I've said it was probs a red, don't get me wrong. As I said, my issue was that I didn't think it was as clear cut as the officials seemed to.

but, hang on, it sounds like you think it was an illegal tackle even if it wasn't high? Or have I misunderstood you?

I mean they only ever get called when its high, despite being incredibly common, but yes I absolutely do. Just before contact he clearly slightly twists his body and leans his shoulder into the contact point. The arm is barely away from his side. So yes, it was absolutely an illegal contact regardless.

Now, I have a lot of sympathy for players in these situations because they've been allowed get away with this type of contact for so long that they have become almost ubiquitous - hence why I think World Rugby need to come out at this stage and clearly tell people to stop dropping the shoulder into people.

Can you tell me what law it was an illegal tackle then? Leading with an elbow or so, sure. I’m unclear why you are saying leading with a shoulder is illegal? If you get your arm up, it’s fine, no? You said leading with the shoulder was foul play, but I’m wondering why and, specifically, why you’re asking for WR to clarify it as foul play. They’ve previously clarified that it’s an attempt to wrap that matters. I just don’t get your argument that leading with the shoulder is foul play? They’ve literally clarified that that is fine (as long as you try to wrap). And their clarification made it clear they view it differently than leading with a forearm or elbow. That’s what I’m not getting.

[Simian]

Have now watched the Exeter game. Brace honestly isn’t terrible at all, at one stage Montpellier had a penalty count heavily in their favour. Exeter probably got lucky on a couple of scrum pens but that’s all but the sum of it.

The red is a soft one but you can’t tackle like that. This isn’t new and Mercer can do better than get himself into that situation, none of this is new now. I wouldn’t have been shocked to see it given as a yellow but equally he can have few complaints. Entertaining game overall

This is kinda my point. A few seasons ago, those were nailed on reds. And should be. I don’t really understand how that’s a red and hislop’s was ruled after the fact as a yellow? Same thing, to me?

It’s a right old mess.

[Kawazaki]

Chisholm hit Earl in the head with his shoulder with an upright active tackle in the first minute of the league match last week. Not even looked at or cited. Plenty of hush from the usual suspects in here about it as well.

[JM2K6]

Too busy laughing at you doing your thing on the Quins board, I expect.

It's not clear that Chisholm actually hits his head - the problem is because it wasn't picked up we get no slowmos and no reverse angle. You can freezeframe and it looks like it's gone under the chin entirely. Still high and dangerous but not actually proof it was direct to head and not the same as the Mercer incident, where there is zero doubt it's a clean shot to the head.

And before you lose your mind again, I'm also not saying it's not a headshot. Just that we, as observers with limited information, can't be certain. One might suggest that the fact he wasn't cited suggests there's enough doubt there too, but I'm not duplicitous enough to pretend that citing officers don't make mistakes.

[PornDog]

I mean, I've said it was probs a red, don't get me wrong. As I said, my issue was that I didn't think it was as clear cut as the officials seemed to.

but, hang on, it sounds like you think it was an illegal tackle even if it wasn't high? Or have I misunderstood you?

I mean they only ever get called when its high, despite being incredibly common, but yes I absolutely do. Just before contact he clearly slightly twists his body and leans his shoulder into the contact point. The arm is barely away from his side. So yes, it was absolutely an illegal contact regardless.

Now, I have a lot of sympathy for players in these situations because they've been allowed get away with this type of contact for so long that they have become almost ubiquitous - hence why I think World Rugby need to come out at this stage and clearly tell people to stop dropping the shoulder into people.

Can you tell me what law it was an illegal tackle then? Leading with an elbow or so, sure. I’m unclear why you are saying leading with a shoulder is illegal? If you get your arm up, it’s fine, no? You said leading with the shoulder was foul play, but I’m wondering why and, specifically, why you’re asking for WR to clarify it as foul play. They’ve previously clarified that it’s an attempt to wrap that matters. I just don’t get your argument that leading with the shoulder is foul play? They’ve literally clarified that that is fine (as long as you try to wrap). And their clarification made it clear they view it differently than leading with a forearm or elbow. That’s what I’m not getting.

His arm wasn't up - that's the point. Wrapping an arm after you've made contact means fuck all, the arm has to be up BEFORE contact is made.

The whole point of the law is that when your arm is up, muscle covers the hardest parts of your shoulder, cushioning the impact. That's why the law is there and has been for 100+ years. tucking your arm down by your side, even if not directly tucked and there is some space between where your arm is and your abdomen, leaves you with a very hard and sharper point of impact.

World Rugby has slowly allowed this principal to be degraded over the last decade or so and it is one of the major contributing factors to the current shit show we are having to deal with re concussions and cards. Just as hookers have forgotten how to hook due to World Rugby being shit, it seems that now players are forgetting how to tackle as well!

[Simian]

I mean they only ever get called when its high, despite being incredibly common, but yes I absolutely do. Just before contact he clearly slightly twists his body and leans his shoulder into the contact point. The arm is barely away from his side. So yes, it was absolutely an illegal contact regardless.

Now, I have a lot of sympathy for players in these situations because they've been allowed get away with this type of contact for so long that they have become almost ubiquitous - hence why I think World Rugby need to come out at this stage and clearly tell people to stop dropping the shoulder into people.

Can you tell me what law it was an illegal tackle then? Leading with an elbow or so, sure. I’m unclear why you are saying leading with a shoulder is illegal? If you get your arm up, it’s fine, no? You said leading with the shoulder was foul play, but I’m wondering why and, specifically, why you’re asking for WR to clarify it as foul play. They’ve previously clarified that it’s an attempt to wrap that matters. I just don’t get your argument that leading with the shoulder is foul play? They’ve literally clarified that that is fine (as long as you try to wrap). And their clarification made it clear they view it differently than leading with a forearm or elbow. That’s what I’m not getting.

His arm wasn't up - that's the point. Wrapping an arm after you've made contact means fuck all, the arm has to be up BEFORE contact is made.

The whole point of the law is that when your arm is up, muscle covers the hardest parts of your shoulder, cushioning the impact. That's why the law is there and has been for 100+ years. tucking your arm down by your side, even if not directly tucked and there is some space between where your arm is and your abdomen, leaves you with a very hard and sharper point of impact.

World Rugby has slowly allowed this principal to be degraded over the last decade or so and it is one of the major contributing factors to the current shit show we are having to deal with re concussions and cards. Just as hookers have forgotten how to hook due to World Rugby being shit, it seems that now players are forgetting how to tackle as well!

ok. so, you're saying it should have been reffed according to imaginary laws.

Can you tell me which law for 100+ years says you can't lead with you shoulder? There are legit law clarifications saying it's fine,. Common misunderstanding.

tbc, I don't think it should be ok.

("his arm wasn't up" : half of tackles would be foul play if that's not an effort to to wrap. I don't get your point. The problem was height. and height only)

[Kawazaki]

Too busy laughing at you doing your thing on the Quins board, I expect.

It's not clear that Chisholm actually hits his head - the problem is because it wasn't picked up we get no slowmos and no reverse angle. You can freezeframe and it looks like it's gone under the chin entirely. Still high and dangerous but not actually proof it was direct to head and not the same as the Mercer incident, where there is zero doubt it's a clean shot to the head.

And before you lose your mind again, I'm also not saying it's not a headshot. Just that we, as observers with limited information, can't be certain. One might suggest that the fact he wasn't cited suggests there's enough doubt there too, but I'm not duplicitous enough to pretend that citing officers don't make mistakes.

Well it was picked up. And replayed in slow-motion. That's what they Reddit clip is.

Then it was ignored.



Chisholm's shoulder is clearly striking the right side of Earl's head.

[JM2K6]

Entirely possible. Can you show me the other angle to confirm?
Not sure what it has to do with whether the Mercer call was red or yellow, though. Something to do with Saracens, perhaps.

[PornDog]

Saracens are the good guys and innocent of all charges. Even when the charges have nothing to do with them, Saracens innocence, and of course the conspiracies against them, must be highlighted at all times!

I think that's the point!

[Kawazaki]

Entirely possible. Can you show me the other angle to confirm?
Not sure what it has to do with whether the Mercer call was red or yellow, though. Something to do with Saracens, perhaps.

Some teams like Quins get a charmed ride from referees and tv pundits.

[Sards]

Stormers must sort out their cheap arse planning.
Still in Cape Town and facing a long haul to get north......again.

[Kawazaki]

Saracens are the good guys and innocent of all charges. Even when the charges have nothing to do with them, Saracens innocence, and of course the conspiracies against them, must be highlighted at all times!

I think that's the point!

I thought upright tackles with a dropped arm and leading shoulder into the head of ball carriers was being treated seriously by you guys? It seems the health and safety of Saracens players isn't included in this welfare love-in that gets trotted out every week.

[PornDog]

("his arm wasn't up" : half of tackles would be foul play if that's not an effort to to wrap.

That's my point. Yes!


Half is of course a gross exaggeration, but they do happen multiple times in practically every game. Of course you should watch those renowned poor defenders Josh Van Der Flier, Dan Lydiate, or Joe Wrosley in days past (and countless other players who don't immediately come to mind) to see how one can effectively tackle without leading with your shoulder.

[Sards]

BTW saw a still which showed Willemse s foot in touch for his try.....clear as daylight robbery for the Quinns.

[PornDog]

Saracens are the good guys and innocent of all charges. Even when the charges have nothing to do with them, Saracens innocence, and of course the conspiracies against them, must be highlighted at all times!

I think that's the point!

I thought upright tackles with a dropped arm and leading shoulder into the head of ball carriers was being treated seriously by you guys? It seems the health and safety of Saracens players isn't included in this welfare love-in that gets trotted out every week.

QED

[JM2K6]

Entirely possible. Can you show me the other angle to confirm?
Not sure what it has to do with whether the Mercer call was red or yellow, though. Something to do with Saracens, perhaps.

Some teams like Quins get a charmed ride from referees and tv pundits.

That must be it.

[OomStruisbaai]

BTW saw a still which showed Willemse s foot in touch for his try.....clear as daylight robbery for the Quinns.

You are very late. You backing the Stormers on saturday?

[OomStruisbaai]

Stormers must sort out their cheap arse planning.
Still in Cape Town and facing a long haul to get north......again.

$hark$

The Sharks departed Durban on Tuesday morning to make the short flight to Johannesburg.

From there, the squad would be split into two groups and travel economy class to save costs.

One group will travel via Frankfurt to Toulouse, while the other goes via Paris.

Both routes are set to take 24 hours to complete, with the squad reconvening in Toulouse on Wednesday morning ahead of Saturday’s clash.

[Marylandolorian]

Stormers must sort out their cheap arse planning.
Still in Cape Town and facing a long haul to get north......again.

$hark$

The Sharks departed Durban on Tuesday morning to make the short flight to Johannesburg.

From there, the squad would be split into two groups and travel economy class to save costs.

One group will travel via Frankfurt to Toulouse, while the other goes via Paris.

Both routes are set to take 24 hours to complete, with the squad reconvening in Toulouse on Wednesday morning ahead of Saturday’s clash.

I just listened on RMC radio, Yannick Bru a consultant with the Sharks, and to be fair with them they couldn’t make any reservations before knowing if they were going to be qualified for the quarter finals. Hence flying with two different airlines ( Air France / Lufthansa)
Anyway, it’ll be an interesting game to watch.

[Ovals]

Entirely possible. Can you show me the other angle to confirm?
Not sure what it has to do with whether the Mercer call was red or yellow, though. Something to do with Saracens, perhaps.

Some teams like Quins get a charmed ride from referees and tv pundits.

That must be it.

Right - poor old Owen never got away with any dubious tackles !

[Kawazaki]

Some teams like Quins get a charmed ride from referees and tv pundits.

That must be it.

Right - poor old Owen never got away with any dubious tackles !

Are you kidding?! You never hear the fucking end of it!

[Ovals]

That must be it.

Right - poor old Owen never got away with any dubious tackles !

Are you kidding?! You never hear the fucking end of it!

Poor lad - so hard done by.

[Kawazaki]

Right - poor old Owen never got away with any dubious tackles !

Are you kidding?! You never hear the fucking end of it!

Poor lad - so hard done by.

If Farrell had done the tackle that Chisholm did then can you imagine the frothing from the knitting circle in here and Twitter? He gets far more scrutiny than any other player. So yes, he is hard done by.

[Ovals]

Are you kidding?! You never hear the fucking end of it!

Poor lad - so hard done by.

If Farrell had done the tackle that Chisholm did then can you imagine the frothing from the knitting circle in here and Twitter? He gets far more scrutiny than any other player. So yes, he is hard done by.

No doubt he would - but that is, in large part, due to the times he has not suffered the on field sanctions that some of his tackles warranted. Also in part due to him being Owen Farrell, and part due to him playing for Sarries. I tend to agree with the 1st of those parts, hence my post, but certainly not with the others - since I'm in no way anti Sarries.

[Kawazaki]

Poor lad - so hard done by.

If Farrell had done the tackle that Chisholm did then can you imagine the frothing from the knitting circle in here and Twitter? He gets far more scrutiny than any other player. So yes, he is hard done by.

No doubt he would - but that is, in large part, due to the times he has not suffered the on field sanctions that some of his tackles warranted. Also in part due to him being Owen Farrell, and part due to him playing for Sarries. I tend to agree with the 1st of those parts, hence my post, but certainly not with the others - since I'm in no way anti Sarries.

His on-field infractions have been vastly exaggerated and often punished without preference anyway. He has been sent off and yellow carded.

[Sards]

Stormers must sort out their cheap arse planning.
Still in Cape Town and facing a long haul to get north......again.

$hark$

The Sharks departed Durban on Tuesday morning to make the short flight to Johannesburg.

From there, the squad would be split into two groups and travel economy class to save costs.

One group will travel via Frankfurt to Toulouse, while the other goes via Paris.

Both routes are set to take 24 hours to complete, with the squad reconvening in Toulouse on Wednesday morning ahead of Saturday’s clash.

Ja. That didn't age well. At least they got out this morning. That's going to hurt both teams.

[Sards]

BTW saw a still which showed Willemse s foot in touch for his try.....clear as daylight robbery for the Quinns.

You are very late. You backing the Stormers on saturday?

Of course

[OomStruisbaai]

Stormers must sort out their cheap arse planning.
Still in Cape Town and facing a long haul to get north......again.

$hark$

The Sharks departed Durban on Tuesday morning to make the short flight to Johannesburg.

From there, the squad would be split into two groups and travel economy class to save costs.

One group will travel via Frankfurt to Toulouse, while the other goes via Paris.

Both routes are set to take 24 hours to complete, with the squad reconvening in Toulouse on Wednesday morning ahead of Saturday’s clash.

Ja. That didn't age well. At least they got out this morning. That's going to hurt both teams.

Any word on Etsebeth? He is a vital player against ToLoose.

[OomStruisbaai]

Just saw he and Hendricks is out. Gatslag.

[OomStruisbaai]

Joe Marley ball sense
https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/watch-marl ... ie-fuming/

[Sards]

Just saw he and Hendricks is out. Gatslag.

Don't mind Hendricks...just hope Cameron is not there.

We have depth in our squad....so shoudn't be an excuse

[assfly]

We have depth in our squad....so shoudn't be an excuse

It would be nice for Williams to get a bit of a run of games, so he can sort out his box kicking too.

[Sards]

We have depth in our squad....so shoudn't be an excuse

It would be nice for Williams to get a bit of a run of games, so he can sort out his box kicking too.

I just saw Cameron is on the flight. I would have rather taken Bradley from the CC side tbh

[Sards]

The Bulls announced their first coaching staff adjustment after a dismal season..

[CM11]

Mercer's card rescinded.

They really need to bring in the 20 minute thingy and deal with the incident after the game.