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I mean they only ever get called when its high, despite being incredibly common, but yes I absolutely do. Just before contact he clearly slightly twists his body and leans his shoulder into the contact point. The arm is barely away from his side. So yes, it was absolutely an illegal contact regardless.Simian wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:40 pmI mean, I've said it was probs a red, don't get me wrong. As I said, my issue was that I didn't think it was as clear cut as the officials seemed to.PornDog wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:16 pmNah, calling bollox on that one. If we're being incredibly generous, his arm was at most at 45° angle (more like 30°) from his body. Now I don't think there is a definition for when a shoulder becomes a wrapped tackle, but for my money that's not enough (feel the hardness of your own shoulder at 45° vs 70° - big difference, in hardness and contact area).
PLUS - he clearly twists his body entering into the actual contact, meaning instead of being directly to his side his arm goes back and shoulder goes forward, negating what little benefit that even 45° brought to the collision in the first place. He leads with his shoulder. That's an act of foul play and more than any other single aspect of the collision (well besides the actual head contact), means its was correct to be a red card.
More than any individual player, this is a consistent failing fo coaches, and by extension, a failure by World Rubgy to properly communicate HOW NOT TO FUCKING TACKLE SOMEONE!!
Players are doing these stupid things more from instinct than actual deliberate thought, because this stupidity hasn't been coached out of them yet. World Rugby needs to step up and start doing instructional videos like they did with the "forward pass" "momentum" clarifications a few years ago.
Don't stick your fucking shoulder into someone, let alone their head!
but, hang on, it sounds like you think it was an illegal tackle even if it wasn't high? Or have I misunderstood you?
Low level of danger, I agree, but for this kind of action the refs have to give a red now.CM11 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:54 pmLow level of danger. He was standing still waiting to absorb the hit. The other tackler moved the position of the attacker's head into his shoulder.
Personally I think any opportunity to mitigate should be taken. It's why I'm in favour of the 20 min red card bin and the trial they've implemented in the SH.
Can you tell me what law it was an illegal tackle then? Leading with an elbow or so, sure. I’m unclear why you are saying leading with a shoulder is illegal? If you get your arm up, it’s fine, no? You said leading with the shoulder was foul play, but I’m wondering why and, specifically, why you’re asking for WR to clarify it as foul play. They’ve previously clarified that it’s an attempt to wrap that matters. I just don’t get your argument that leading with the shoulder is foul play? They’ve literally clarified that that is fine (as long as you try to wrap). And their clarification made it clear they view it differently than leading with a forearm or elbow. That’s what I’m not getting.PornDog wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 5:01 pmI mean they only ever get called when its high, despite being incredibly common, but yes I absolutely do. Just before contact he clearly slightly twists his body and leans his shoulder into the contact point. The arm is barely away from his side. So yes, it was absolutely an illegal contact regardless.Simian wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:40 pmI mean, I've said it was probs a red, don't get me wrong. As I said, my issue was that I didn't think it was as clear cut as the officials seemed to.PornDog wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:16 pm
Nah, calling bollox on that one. If we're being incredibly generous, his arm was at most at 45° angle (more like 30°) from his body. Now I don't think there is a definition for when a shoulder becomes a wrapped tackle, but for my money that's not enough (feel the hardness of your own shoulder at 45° vs 70° - big difference, in hardness and contact area).
PLUS - he clearly twists his body entering into the actual contact, meaning instead of being directly to his side his arm goes back and shoulder goes forward, negating what little benefit that even 45° brought to the collision in the first place. He leads with his shoulder. That's an act of foul play and more than any other single aspect of the collision (well besides the actual head contact), means its was correct to be a red card.
More than any individual player, this is a consistent failing fo coaches, and by extension, a failure by World Rubgy to properly communicate HOW NOT TO FUCKING TACKLE SOMEONE!!
Players are doing these stupid things more from instinct than actual deliberate thought, because this stupidity hasn't been coached out of them yet. World Rugby needs to step up and start doing instructional videos like they did with the "forward pass" "momentum" clarifications a few years ago.
Don't stick your fucking shoulder into someone, let alone their head!
but, hang on, it sounds like you think it was an illegal tackle even if it wasn't high? Or have I misunderstood you?
Now, I have a lot of sympathy for players in these situations because they've been allowed get away with this type of contact for so long that they have become almost ubiquitous - hence why I think World Rugby need to come out at this stage and clearly tell people to stop dropping the shoulder into people.
This is kinda my point. A few seasons ago, those were nailed on reds. And should be. I don’t really understand how that’s a red and hislop’s was ruled after the fact as a yellow? Same thing, to me?Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 5:52 pm Have now watched the Exeter game. Brace honestly isn’t terrible at all, at one stage Montpellier had a penalty count heavily in their favour. Exeter probably got lucky on a couple of scrum pens but that’s all but the sum of it.
The red is a soft one but you can’t tackle like that. This isn’t new and Mercer can do better than get himself into that situation, none of this is new now. I wouldn’t have been shocked to see it given as a yellow but equally he can have few complaints. Entertaining game overall
Chisholm hit Earl in the head with his shoulder with an upright active tackle in the first minute of the league match last week. Not even looked at or cited. Plenty of hush from the usual suspects in here about it as well.
His arm wasn't up - that's the point. Wrapping an arm after you've made contact means fuck all, the arm has to be up BEFORE contact is made.Simian wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:44 pmCan you tell me what law it was an illegal tackle then? Leading with an elbow or so, sure. I’m unclear why you are saying leading with a shoulder is illegal? If you get your arm up, it’s fine, no? You said leading with the shoulder was foul play, but I’m wondering why and, specifically, why you’re asking for WR to clarify it as foul play. They’ve previously clarified that it’s an attempt to wrap that matters. I just don’t get your argument that leading with the shoulder is foul play? They’ve literally clarified that that is fine (as long as you try to wrap). And their clarification made it clear they view it differently than leading with a forearm or elbow. That’s what I’m not getting.PornDog wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 5:01 pmI mean they only ever get called when its high, despite being incredibly common, but yes I absolutely do. Just before contact he clearly slightly twists his body and leans his shoulder into the contact point. The arm is barely away from his side. So yes, it was absolutely an illegal contact regardless.Simian wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:40 pm
I mean, I've said it was probs a red, don't get me wrong. As I said, my issue was that I didn't think it was as clear cut as the officials seemed to.
but, hang on, it sounds like you think it was an illegal tackle even if it wasn't high? Or have I misunderstood you?
Now, I have a lot of sympathy for players in these situations because they've been allowed get away with this type of contact for so long that they have become almost ubiquitous - hence why I think World Rugby need to come out at this stage and clearly tell people to stop dropping the shoulder into people.
ok. so, you're saying it should have been reffed according to imaginary laws.PornDog wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:17 pmHis arm wasn't up - that's the point. Wrapping an arm after you've made contact means fuck all, the arm has to be up BEFORE contact is made.Simian wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:44 pmCan you tell me what law it was an illegal tackle then? Leading with an elbow or so, sure. I’m unclear why you are saying leading with a shoulder is illegal? If you get your arm up, it’s fine, no? You said leading with the shoulder was foul play, but I’m wondering why and, specifically, why you’re asking for WR to clarify it as foul play. They’ve previously clarified that it’s an attempt to wrap that matters. I just don’t get your argument that leading with the shoulder is foul play? They’ve literally clarified that that is fine (as long as you try to wrap). And their clarification made it clear they view it differently than leading with a forearm or elbow. That’s what I’m not getting.PornDog wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 5:01 pm
I mean they only ever get called when its high, despite being incredibly common, but yes I absolutely do. Just before contact he clearly slightly twists his body and leans his shoulder into the contact point. The arm is barely away from his side. So yes, it was absolutely an illegal contact regardless.
Now, I have a lot of sympathy for players in these situations because they've been allowed get away with this type of contact for so long that they have become almost ubiquitous - hence why I think World Rugby need to come out at this stage and clearly tell people to stop dropping the shoulder into people.
The whole point of the law is that when your arm is up, muscle covers the hardest parts of your shoulder, cushioning the impact. That's why the law is there and has been for 100+ years. tucking your arm down by your side, even if not directly tucked and there is some space between where your arm is and your abdomen, leaves you with a very hard and sharper point of impact.
World Rugby has slowly allowed this principal to be degraded over the last decade or so and it is one of the major contributing factors to the current shit show we are having to deal with re concussions and cards. Just as hookers have forgotten how to hook due to World Rugby being shit, it seems that now players are forgetting how to tackle as well!
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:45 pm Too busy laughing at you doing your thing on the Quins board, I expect.
It's not clear that Chisholm actually hits his head - the problem is because it wasn't picked up we get no slowmos and no reverse angle. You can freezeframe and it looks like it's gone under the chin entirely. Still high and dangerous but not actually proof it was direct to head and not the same as the Mercer incident, where there is zero doubt it's a clean shot to the head.
And before you lose your mind again, I'm also not saying it's not a headshot. Just that we, as observers with limited information, can't be certain. One might suggest that the fact he wasn't cited suggests there's enough doubt there too, but I'm not duplicitous enough to pretend that citing officers don't make mistakes.
That's my point. Yes!
QEDKawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:58 am
I thought upright tackles with a dropped arm and leading shoulder into the head of ball carriers was being treated seriously by you guys? It seems the health and safety of Saracens players isn't included in this welfare love-in that gets trotted out every week.
The Sharks departed Durban on Tuesday morning to make the short flight to Johannesburg.
From there, the squad would be split into two groups and travel economy class to save costs.
One group will travel via Frankfurt to Toulouse, while the other goes via Paris.
Both routes are set to take 24 hours to complete, with the squad reconvening in Toulouse on Wednesday morning ahead of Saturday’s clash.
I just listened on RMC radio, Yannick Bru a consultant with the Sharks, and to be fair with them they couldn’t make any reservations before knowing if they were going to be qualified for the quarter finals. Hence flying with two different airlines ( Air France / Lufthansa)OomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:14 am
$hark$The Sharks departed Durban on Tuesday morning to make the short flight to Johannesburg.
From there, the squad would be split into two groups and travel economy class to save costs.
One group will travel via Frankfurt to Toulouse, while the other goes via Paris.
Both routes are set to take 24 hours to complete, with the squad reconvening in Toulouse on Wednesday morning ahead of Saturday’s clash.
No doubt he would - but that is, in large part, due to the times he has not suffered the on field sanctions that some of his tackles warranted. Also in part due to him being Owen Farrell, and part due to him playing for Sarries. I tend to agree with the 1st of those parts, hence my post, but certainly not with the others - since I'm in no way anti Sarries.
Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 2:31 pmNo doubt he would - but that is, in large part, due to the times he has not suffered the on field sanctions that some of his tackles warranted. Also in part due to him being Owen Farrell, and part due to him playing for Sarries. I tend to agree with the 1st of those parts, hence my post, but certainly not with the others - since I'm in no way anti Sarries.
Ja. That didn't age well. At least they got out this morning. That's going to hurt both teams.OomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:14 am
$hark$The Sharks departed Durban on Tuesday morning to make the short flight to Johannesburg.
From there, the squad would be split into two groups and travel economy class to save costs.
One group will travel via Frankfurt to Toulouse, while the other goes via Paris.
Both routes are set to take 24 hours to complete, with the squad reconvening in Toulouse on Wednesday morning ahead of Saturday’s clash.
Of courseOomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:27 amYou are very late. You backing the Stormers on saturday?
Any word on Etsebeth? He is a vital player against ToLoose.Sards wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 3:24 pmJa. That didn't age well. At least they got out this morning. That's going to hurt both teams.OomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:14 am
$hark$The Sharks departed Durban on Tuesday morning to make the short flight to Johannesburg.
From there, the squad would be split into two groups and travel economy class to save costs.
One group will travel via Frankfurt to Toulouse, while the other goes via Paris.
Both routes are set to take 24 hours to complete, with the squad reconvening in Toulouse on Wednesday morning ahead of Saturday’s clash.
Don't mind Hendricks...just hope Cameron is not there.
I just saw Cameron is on the flight. I would have rather taken Bradley from the CC side tbh