NPR

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 8:53 am

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:43 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:29 am It took two world wars to sort out German nationalism. Let's hope that the problem of Russian nationalism can be fixed when they lose their genocidal war against Ukraine.

Very childlike view of WW1.

I was referring to Germany's pre WW1 aims of annexing parts of it's neighbors to ensure it's great power status (not unlike what Russia is trying to do) and how it took two world wars to defeat these ambitions.

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/ge ... ar-i-10778

Ah the Fischer thesis. Controversial in its own time and widely bebunked in modern times.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 12:16 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 8:53 am

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:43 am

Very childlike view of WW1.

I was referring to Germany's pre WW1 aims of annexing parts of it's neighbors to ensure it's great power status (not unlike what Russia is trying to do) and how it took two world wars to defeat these ambitions.

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/ge ... ar-i-10778

Ah the Fischer thesis. Controversial in its own time and widely bebunked in modern times.

Sure, do you actually have a point?

World War One was mostly a territory grab by the great (European) powers of the time - France, Britain and Russia for the lands of the collapsing Ottoman Empire - Sykes-Picot makes this clear. It was the swan song of the “great game” - suggesting that there was some moral element to the motivations of the allied powers is revisionism. the treaty of London was more of the same.

WW2 was a completely different situation - absolutely caused by German aggression - lumping both wars into a single narrative is anti-history.

Regarding those “righty” cunts in the US defending Russia - it’s kinda expected no? They’re kind of proud of their cuntyness- cartoon villains - and never pretended to give a fuck about human suffering outside of their small tribe. I’m More disgusted by the likes of Chomsky, Pilger and other “lefties” also defending Russia - the hypocrisy is absolutely appalling - Real fucking hero’s these lads - standing up for the oppressed of the world

Don't know if confirmed

derriz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:32 pm World War One was mostly a territory grab by the great (European) powers of the time - France, Britain and Russia for the lands of the collapsing Ottoman Empire - Sykes-Picot makes this clear. It was the swan song of the “great game” - suggesting that there was some moral element to the motivations of the allied powers is revisionism. the treaty of London was more of the same.

WW2 was a completely different situation - absolutely caused by German aggression - lumping both wars into a single narrative is anti-history.

I realised you Irish have no reason to be fond of the British empire but if you're suggestion that they had equal or even more responsibility for causing WW1 than Germany you are mistaken. No one is suggesting Germany is solely to bame but German nationalism was a major problem until Germany's defeat in WW2. There's nothing "childlike" about that view.

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:24 pm

derriz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:32 pm World War One was mostly a territory grab by the great (European) powers of the time - France, Britain and Russia for the lands of the collapsing Ottoman Empire - Sykes-Picot makes this clear. It was the swan song of the “great game” - suggesting that there was some moral element to the motivations of the allied powers is revisionism. the treaty of London was more of the same.

WW2 was a completely different situation - absolutely caused by German aggression - lumping both wars into a single narrative is anti-history.

I realised you Irish have no reason to be fond of the British empire but if you're suggestion that they had equal or even more responsibility for causing WW1 than Germany you are mistaken. No one is suggesting Germany is solely to bame but German nationalism was a major problem until Germany's defeat in WW2. There's nothing "childlike" about that view.

I was responding to your claim that the war was a response by the allies to German expansionism. The allied powers were in full expansionist mode themselves at the time and in fact had the explicit aim of using the war to grab territory themselves as was revealed when the secret
Sykes-Picot agreement broke. Claiming similarity with the current Russian invasion is infantile, given Ukraine is not fighting for their own expansionist goals.

derriz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:33 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:24 pm

derriz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:32 pm World War One was mostly a territory grab by the great (European) powers of the time - France, Britain and Russia for the lands of the collapsing Ottoman Empire - Sykes-Picot makes this clear. It was the swan song of the “great game” - suggesting that there was some moral element to the motivations of the allied powers is revisionism. the treaty of London was more of the same.

WW2 was a completely different situation - absolutely caused by German aggression - lumping both wars into a single narrative is anti-history.

I realised you Irish have no reason to be fond of the British empire but if you're suggestion that they had equal or even more responsibility for causing WW1 than Germany you are mistaken. No one is suggesting Germany is solely to bame but German nationalism was a major problem until Germany's defeat in WW2. There's nothing "childlike" about that view.

I was responding to your claim that the war was a response by the allies to German expansionism. The allied powers were in full expansionist mode themselves at the time and in fact had the explicit aim of using the war to grab territory themselves as was revealed when the secret
Sykes-Picot agreement broke. Claiming similarity with the current Russian invasion is infantile, given Ukraine is not fighting for their own expansionist goals.

France wanted some territory back.

TheFrog wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 11:22 pm

derriz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:33 pm I was responding to your claim that the war was a response by the allies to German expansionism. The allied powers were in full expansionist mode themselves at the time and in fact had the explicit aim of using the war to grab territory themselves as was revealed when the secret
Sykes-Picot agreement broke. Claiming similarity with the current Russian invasion is infantile, given Ukraine is not fighting for their own expansionist goals.

France wanted some territory back.

Yeah and you got Syria, Lebanon amongst other territories. Which had nothing to do with Germany.

derriz wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 8:55 am

TheFrog wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 11:22 pm

derriz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:33 pm I was responding to your claim that the war was a response by the allies to German expansionism. The allied powers were in full expansionist mode themselves at the time and in fact had the explicit aim of using the war to grab territory themselves as was revealed when the secret
Sykes-Picot agreement broke. Claiming similarity with the current Russian invasion is infantile, given Ukraine is not fighting for their own expansionist goals.

France wanted some territory back.

Yeah and you got Syria, Lebanon amongst other territories. Which had nothing to do with Germany.

That was carving up the losers What France wanted from a conflict with Germany was what was lost in 1870. (that was not why that war started on though)

derriz wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 8:55 am

TheFrog wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 11:22 pm

derriz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:33 pm I was responding to your claim that the war was a response by the allies to German expansionism. The allied powers were in full expansionist mode themselves at the time and in fact had the explicit aim of using the war to grab territory themselves as was revealed when the secret
Sykes-Picot agreement broke. Claiming similarity with the current Russian invasion is infantile, given Ukraine is not fighting for their own expansionist goals.

France wanted some territory back.

Yeah and you got Syria, Lebanon amongst other territories. Which had nothing to do with Germany.

Sure. We also got Alsace-Lorraine back.

Bit more than just plain revanchism Laurent. They wanted the territory and their "pride" back.

France wanted historical French land back that Germany annexed . Germany wanted to annex more of France, Luxembourg, parts of Belgium, create vassal states of the remainder of Belgium, the balctic states , completely dominate eastern Europe. The British empire was even worse, they wanted to ....

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:24 pm

derriz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:32 pm World War One was mostly a territory grab by the great (European) powers of the time - France, Britain and Russia for the lands of the collapsing Ottoman Empire - Sykes-Picot makes this clear. It was the swan song of the “great game” - suggesting that there was some moral element to the motivations of the allied powers is revisionism. the treaty of London was more of the same.

WW2 was a completely different situation - absolutely caused by German aggression - lumping both wars into a single narrative is anti-history.

I realised you Irish have no reason to be fond of the British empire but if you're suggestion that they had equal or even more responsibility for causing WW1 than Germany you are mistaken. No one is suggesting Germany is solely to bame but German nationalism was a major problem until Germany's defeat in WW2. There's nothing "childlike" about that view.

Your initial comment was a bald comparison between WW2 German nationalism and the WW1 version and in the absence of any further detail, you apportion ww2 level blame to WW1 Germany.

This is very simplistic to put it politely.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... dApp_Other

Review of the year that was.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 9:40 am
Your initial comment was a bald comparison between WW2 German nationalism and the WW1 version and in the absence of any further detail, you apportion ww2 level blame to WW1 Germany.

This is very simplistic to put it politely.

In the absence of further detail you made a big leap and responded like an infant

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:59 am

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:43 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:29 am It took two world wars to sort out German nationalism. Let's hope that the problem of Russian nationalism can be fixed when they lose their genocidal war against Ukraine.

Very childlike view of WW1.

Very hard to say that it wasn't a critical factor in the start of the war and the decision to fight it to a finish

This

derriz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:33 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:24 pm

derriz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:32 pm World War One was mostly a territory grab by the great (European) powers of the time - France, Britain and Russia for the lands of the collapsing Ottoman Empire - Sykes-Picot makes this clear. It was the swan song of the “great game” - suggesting that there was some moral element to the motivations of the allied powers is revisionism. the treaty of London was more of the same.

WW2 was a completely different situation - absolutely caused by German aggression - lumping both wars into a single narrative is anti-history.

I realised you Irish have no reason to be fond of the British empire but if you're suggestion that they had equal or even more responsibility for causing WW1 than Germany you are mistaken. No one is suggesting Germany is solely to bame but German nationalism was a major problem until Germany's defeat in WW2. There's nothing "childlike" about that view.

I was responding to your claim that the war was a response by the allies to German expansionism. The allied powers were in full expansionist mode themselves at the time and in fact had the explicit aim of using the war to grab territory themselves as was revealed when the secret
Sykes-Picot agreement broke. Claiming similarity with the current Russian invasion is infantile, given Ukraine is not fighting for their own expansionist goals.

It's impossible to directly compare how wars were settled before the Second World War and after. We live in an ahistorical 70-80 years that looks like it is coming to an end anyway.

Losers lost land from time immemorial to 1945. I think it is very difficult to say that Britain and France joined the First World War for expansionist purposes, France was in an alliance with Russia in an attempt to contain Germany, Britain joined partially due to treaty with France but largely because it seemed a better option than later having to fight a German dominated Continent alone, a judgment that is hard to argue with given how close France came to defeat when the BEF was a negligible part of the Allied armies in the West in 1914 and the events of 1940 and their impact on British power subsequently. Once in the war it was, by the standards of the time, a naturally flowing consequence for the loser to lose territory and influence and the winners to gain it. See the actions during the FWW of not just Britain and France but such diverse participants as Russia, Italy, the Ottomans, Japan, China, India and the Dominions. I'd strongly argue Wilson's war aims were not altruistic but an attempt to grow American power at the expense of Britain and France as well.

The central trigger for the First World War was the German establishment's militarisation that culminated in the blank cheque to Austria-Hungary. There were plenty of other elements of course, but there was no particular reason why the July Crisis of 1914 had to end any differently than any of the other crises dating back to Fashoda.

Oh those badly maintained balconies and windows



and

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:16 am Ukraine can neither confirm, nor deny....

There's still quite a bit of mystery about what happened here, but it is reported that RU have had to effectively close this airbase due to damage and the gossip is that a number of pilots were also killed ( many more than the 3 officially reported fatalities) as well as one TU bomber. RU will be forced to move their longer range missions even further from Ukraine which means air defence has more notice of missile attacks and longer to prepare.

It seems incredible but Russia have been so desperate to use their modified AA missiles for ground attack, have they so depleted the stock that they had to leave an important base undefended? Wonder if one day we will learn more about what happened, as the attack was very effective and certainly did more than just tickle the Russians up a bit.

One ring to rule them all...

Putin Presents Rings to his Fellow CIS Leaders During Summit



https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/12/ ... mit-a79810

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:10 pm

There's still quite a bit of mystery about what happened here, but it is reported that RU have had to effectively close this airbase due to damage and the gossip is that a number of pilots were also killed ( many more than the 3 officially reported fatalities) as well as one TU bomber. RU will be forced to move their longer range missions even further from Ukraine which means air defence has more notice of missile attacks and longer to prepare.

It seems incredible but Russia have been so desperate to use their modified AA missiles for ground attack, have they so depleted the stock that they had to leave an important base undefended? Wonder if one day we will learn more about what happened, as the attack was very effective and certainly did more than just tickle the Russians up a bit.

I was trying to think what you could hit on a military airfield that would force the cancellation of a strike, & relocation of the aircraft, & all I could really come up with is wiping out the tower, &/or ILS etc, & it sounds like that's what happened. I suppose the additional factor was the fact this was the second attack that got thru, to destroy strategic assets, which is unacceptable to any Country. I'd say another General is for the chopping block.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:52 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:10 pm

There's still quite a bit of mystery about what happened here, but it is reported that RU have had to effectively close this airbase due to damage and the gossip is that a number of pilots were also killed ( many more than the 3 officially reported fatalities) as well as one TU bomber. RU will be forced to move their longer range missions even further from Ukraine which means air defence has more notice of missile attacks and longer to prepare.

It seems incredible but Russia have been so desperate to use their modified AA missiles for ground attack, have they so depleted the stock that they had to leave an important base undefended? Wonder if one day we will learn more about what happened, as the attack was very effective and certainly did more than just tickle the Russians up a bit.

I was trying to think what you could hit on a military airfield that would force the cancellation of a strike, & relocation of the aircraft, & all I could really come up with is wiping out the tower, &/or ILS etc, & it sounds like that's what happened. I suppose the additional factor was the fact this was the second attack that got thru, to destroy strategic assets, which is unacceptable to any Country. I'd say another General is for the chopping block.

Aircraft not just relocated but moved 000's of kilometres away to the Amur region in the far east! Plenty of tweets saying a control tower destroyed, e.g.

Hopefully that'll stop or stem the attacks on civilian infrastructure.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:07 pm

Hopefully that'll stop or stem the attacks on civilian infrastructure.

I doubt it. They switch to using the Backfires, & the Blackjacks, & base out of a couple of airfields, instead of just giving the Ukrainians just one target; but at least they've really stung the Orcs, & made them change plans again, after destroying aircraft & crew that are irreplaceable.

The family in this is especially inspiring/heart-breaking. Most have left, and you can't blame them. Many would say they should leave, too, but if they feel it's safe enough for now, I respect their defiance to those Russian cnuts. (And, by the look of things, the Ukrainians should push the Russians out in not to long, I hope.)

I read stuff like this, & I wonder how much counter-battery stuff is chewing up the Orcs?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64102826

The Orc artillery is so inaccurate now, it's only useful as a weapon of terror against civilians, & the Ukrainians possess enough accurate artillery to fuck up any opposing artillery, or mortars.

Just setup two counter-battery units, with say a dozen prepared positions each, & when incoming fire is located, they counter fire, & shoot & scoot to the next location. I think the Orc gunners would soon develop radio problems when they next got their fire orders, after they'd seen 90% of their comrades torn to shreds !

Yet another cigarette related incident?

MAKS 22
@Maks_NAFO_FELLA
16 missiles were recorded in the capital's airspace. All 16 were destroyed, — KMVA.
10:54 PM · Dec 29, 2022

Excellent - keep wasting your missiles Vlad. You'll be running out soon and will need them to battle armies instead of women and children (and oldies - don't forget the oldies)

Darth Putin
@DarthPutinKGB
Russian cruise missiles successful destroyed numerous Patriot missiles over Ukraine.
12:16 AM · Dec 30, 2022

Well maybe if you stopped allowing Russia to use your country as one big launching pad for attacks on, um Ukraine, this sort of thing wouldn't happen, you absolute assclowns

These guys want out (Bashkortostan).

Not entirely sure where they are going to go (tiny bit surrounded). But good on them!

What to expect in 2023.

derriz wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:42 pm Regarding those “righty” cunts in the US defending Russia - it’s kinda expected no? They’re kind of proud of their cuntyness- cartoon villains - and never pretended to give a fuck about human suffering outside of their small tribe. I’m More disgusted by the likes of Chomsky, Pilger and other “lefties” also defending Russia - the hypocrisy is absolutely appalling - Real fucking hero’s these lads - standing up for the oppressed of the world

It's not surprising there's a section of the left that sort of defends Russia. Their outlook is about being anti-Western, they don't have anything else in their locker beyond that. I think it's purely a product of American strength/liberal success/end of history, basically they'll take all these positions when it has no impact on them, but if a time ever came when it could impact them directly they wouldn't take these positions. You would struggle finding anyone on the left in eastern Europe keen to welcome Putin as their overlord.

Pilger is maybe the worst of them, no surprise he's coming out with whatever rubbish he is (I don't know his stance on Ukraine and do not follow him). A lot of his career was built on being anti-Vietnam war and then anti-apartheid, but when you dig into that things start getting weird. He starts from the absolutely correct position of being anti-apartheid and listing various crimes/wrongs, so far so good. Then as time passes he starts making claims which are bullshit but go uncorrected (because correcting them would put those doing the correcting in which camp?), he like others ended up basically equating capitalism to apartheid. He then starts making more claims about South African politics generally which were also wrong, the big one his cohort made was stating the IFP rank and file were apartheid supporters (when they were and still are just Zulu traditionalists that oppose socialism), they basically gave the ANC media aircover to fight (and kill) IFP activists. During all this the views of actual South Africans became irrelevant to his activism, it became some sort of mad personal conflict with the West with SA just being a prop in that. Not only is the IFP dismissed, liberal white South Africans pointing out ANC wrongs in the 1990s were dismissed as racist, then later still the ANC itself was dismissed as not revolutionary enough (sans any recognition by the likes of Pilger those they had previously opposed and condemned, had been right to oppose the ANC years before the likes of Pilger had anything negative to say about the ANC at all). Pilger's final position on SA is that apartheid hasn't ended, he even made an entire documentary claiming that, which is thoroughly insane.

I see this group edging towards a similar positions with Ukraine (I don't know and have no interest in what Pilger is coming out with, but have seen some of this cohort's views generally). they don't actually care what Ukrainians are saying. Their first claim was to state it was a NATO v Russia conflict, which Ukraine were victims of and NATO started, they therefore claimed on behalf of Ukrainians that Ukrainians wanted a bad peace. When it became obvious that many Ukrainians actually wanted to fight to the death with NATO help or without, to such an extent that any Ukrainian president making a bad peace before this will fight had been exhausted would risk coup/assassination, they switched to saying Ukrainians are Nazis. It seems obvious enough most of Ukraine's military is just ordinary guys and not political, of those that are political a lot of nationalism in eastern Europe (including now in Russia bizarrely) is anti-Soviet and mixed up with Nazi imagery. Ordinary Ukrainians on social media have directly told these people they're not Nazis, but it seems have now given up after being ignored. Quite what side they're now backing is hard to tell, but Putin/Russia is the side they've criticised the least.

You can bet whatever the final outcome is in Ukraine the Pilger type person is going to end up being completely wrong and gripping onto some mad position. They really struggle when the population of a country they make their pet project, clearly indicates their preference for capitalist liberal democracy, in those instances their end point is always opposing everything in that country. They're happier when the dictators win as in Cuba or Venezuela or Iran, there's no criticism or investigative journalism from them exposing those places. For example there's clearly a story in this war about the support Iran has given to Russia and Turkey to Ukraine, but they're non-Western actors so this group doesn't care.

It's a new thing for anyone on the right to be following this lefty loony playbook, struggling to think of anything comparable in the past.

I couldn't help looking up what the loony Pilger was saying about this war. I got as far as two paragraphs on Wiki and that was enough:

On the Poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal on 4 March 2018, Pilger said in an interview on Russia's RT: "This is a carefully constructed drama as part of the propaganda campaign that has been building now for several years in order to justify the actions of NATO, Britain and the United States, towards Russia. That's a fact". Such events as the Iraq War, "at the very least should make us sceptical of Theresa May's theatrics in Parliament". He hinted that the UK government may have been involved in the attack, saying it had motive and that the nearby Porton Down laboratory has a "long and sinister record with nerve gas and chemical weapons"

With the absence of a Russian "invasion" a bitter disappointment to its most avid promoters in London, this expose of Operation Orbital, the British army's secretive role in Ukraine, is recommended.
John Pilger, 3 days before Russian forces invaded Ukraine

"Operation Orbital" has it's own Wiki page, with many UK government links in the references, it was a publicly announced small training mission after Ukraine was invaded in 2014. I have no idea what there was to make an "expose" from.

There's a group of people like him that managed to spin an entire career out of being loudly anti-Vietnam War and anti-apartheid, they're taken seriously still for whatever reason. But anyway ... "The UK is responsible for the Skripal poisonings and Russia definitely isn't going to launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine, in fact the UK is provoking Russia by sending a few guys from the RAF regiment to do some training ... wait Russia did invade? It's NATO's fault Ukrainians don't want this war they want to relinquish half their nation and become a Russia vassal ... wait Ukrainians do want to fight and are winning? Fucking Nazis".

The next move these people always make is to ignore the subject entirely, because there's no way they can return to it without admitting they were wrong about basically everything. They can't talk about it with anyone who has any real knowledge, because they'll be told "that is total bullshit", so they move their roadshow to the next poor country. Carlson and the loony right have decided to go down the same path. They'll all end up deeply hating Ukraine because it'll be a reminder they were wrong.

_Os_ wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:05 am I couldn't help looking up what the loony Pilger was saying about this war. I got as far as two paragraphs on Wiki and that was enough:

On the Poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal on 4 March 2018, Pilger said in an interview on Russia's RT: "This is a carefully constructed drama as part of the propaganda campaign that has been building now for several years in order to justify the actions of NATO, Britain and the United States, towards Russia. That's a fact". Such events as the Iraq War, "at the very least should make us sceptical of Theresa May's theatrics in Parliament". He hinted that the UK government may have been involved in the attack, saying it had motive and that the nearby Porton Down laboratory has a "long and sinister record with nerve gas and chemical weapons"

With the absence of a Russian "invasion" a bitter disappointment to its most avid promoters in London, this expose of Operation Orbital, the British army's secretive role in Ukraine, is recommended.
John Pilger, 3 days before Russian forces invaded Ukraine

"Operation Orbital" has it's own Wiki page, with many UK government links in the references, it was a publicly announced small training mission after Ukraine was invaded in 2014. I have no idea what there was to make an "expose" from.

There's a group of people like him that managed to spin an entire career out of being loudly anti-Vietnam War and anti-apartheid, they're taken seriously still for whatever reason. But anyway ... "The UK is responsible for the Skripal poisonings and Russia definitely isn't going to launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine, in fact the UK is provoking Russia by sending a few guys from the RAF regiment to do some training ... wait Russia did invade? It's NATO's fault Ukrainians don't want this war they want to relinquish half their nation and become a Russia vassal ... wait Ukrainians do want to fight and are winning? Fucking Nazis".

The next move these people always make is to ignore the subject entirely, because there's no way they can return to it without admitting they were wrong about basically everything. They can't talk about it with anyone who has any real knowledge, because they'll be told "that is total bullshit", so they move their roadshow to the next poor country. Carlson and the loony right have decided to go down the same path. They'll all end up deeply hating Ukraine because it'll be a reminder they were wrong.

Yeah, apartheid and the US / Sth Korea / Aus etc intevention in Vietnam were praiseworthy projects.

Go.Fúck.Yourself.

MungoMan wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:09 am

_Os_ wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:05 am I couldn't help looking up what the loony Pilger was saying about this war. I got as far as two paragraphs on Wiki and that was enough:

On the Poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal on 4 March 2018, Pilger said in an interview on Russia's RT: "This is a carefully constructed drama as part of the propaganda campaign that has been building now for several years in order to justify the actions of NATO, Britain and the United States, towards Russia. That's a fact". Such events as the Iraq War, "at the very least should make us sceptical of Theresa May's theatrics in Parliament". He hinted that the UK government may have been involved in the attack, saying it had motive and that the nearby Porton Down laboratory has a "long and sinister record with nerve gas and chemical weapons"

With the absence of a Russian "invasion" a bitter disappointment to its most avid promoters in London, this expose of Operation Orbital, the British army's secretive role in Ukraine, is recommended.
John Pilger, 3 days before Russian forces invaded Ukraine

"Operation Orbital" has it's own Wiki page, with many UK government links in the references, it was a publicly announced small training mission after Ukraine was invaded in 2014. I have no idea what there was to make an "expose" from.

There's a group of people like him that managed to spin an entire career out of being loudly anti-Vietnam War and anti-apartheid, they're taken seriously still for whatever reason. But anyway ... "The UK is responsible for the Skripal poisonings and Russia definitely isn't going to launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine, in fact the UK is provoking Russia by sending a few guys from the RAF regiment to do some training ... wait Russia did invade? It's NATO's fault Ukrainians don't want this war they want to relinquish half their nation and become a Russia vassal ... wait Ukrainians do want to fight and are winning? Fucking Nazis".

The next move these people always make is to ignore the subject entirely, because there's no way they can return to it without admitting they were wrong about basically everything. They can't talk about it with anyone who has any real knowledge, because they'll be told "that is total bullshit", so they move their roadshow to the next poor country. Carlson and the loony right have decided to go down the same path. They'll all end up deeply hating Ukraine because it'll be a reminder they were wrong.

Yeah, apartheid and the US / Sth Korea / Aus etc intevention in Vietnam were praiseworthy projects.

Go.Fúck.Yourself.

That is missing the point. That these people were right in those instances mentioned (apartheid and vietnam) but since then been frequently wrong and are incapable of admitting being wrong so double down instead.

MungoMan wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:09 am

_Os_ wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:05 am I couldn't help looking up what the loony Pilger was saying about this war. I got as far as two paragraphs on Wiki and that was enough:

On the Poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal on 4 March 2018, Pilger said in an interview on Russia's RT: "This is a carefully constructed drama as part of the propaganda campaign that has been building now for several years in order to justify the actions of NATO, Britain and the United States, towards Russia. That's a fact". Such events as the Iraq War, "at the very least should make us sceptical of Theresa May's theatrics in Parliament". He hinted that the UK government may have been involved in the attack, saying it had motive and that the nearby Porton Down laboratory has a "long and sinister record with nerve gas and chemical weapons"

With the absence of a Russian "invasion" a bitter disappointment to its most avid promoters in London, this expose of Operation Orbital, the British army's secretive role in Ukraine, is recommended.
John Pilger, 3 days before Russian forces invaded Ukraine

"Operation Orbital" has it's own Wiki page, with many UK government links in the references, it was a publicly announced small training mission after Ukraine was invaded in 2014. I have no idea what there was to make an "expose" from.

There's a group of people like him that managed to spin an entire career out of being loudly anti-Vietnam War and anti-apartheid, they're taken seriously still for whatever reason. But anyway ... "The UK is responsible for the Skripal poisonings and Russia definitely isn't going to launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine, in fact the UK is provoking Russia by sending a few guys from the RAF regiment to do some training ... wait Russia did invade? It's NATO's fault Ukrainians don't want this war they want to relinquish half their nation and become a Russia vassal ... wait Ukrainians do want to fight and are winning? Fucking Nazis".

The next move these people always make is to ignore the subject entirely, because there's no way they can return to it without admitting they were wrong about basically everything. They can't talk about it with anyone who has any real knowledge, because they'll be told "that is total bullshit", so they move their roadshow to the next poor country. Carlson and the loony right have decided to go down the same path. They'll all end up deeply hating Ukraine because it'll be a reminder they were wrong.

Yeah, apartheid and the US / Sth Korea / Aus etc intevention in Vietnam were praiseworthy projects.

Go.Fúck.Yourself.

Vietnam was a shitstorm. But if that had just been ignored with no intervention, then the Chinese and Russians would have fomented communist rebellions unopposed across all of south east Asia, into the Philippines and all of those islands down to Aus. The jewel would have been India though - let’s not pretend the communist party wasn’t strong there at times, and that could have had well over half the worlds population under communist totalitarian regimes. That’s obviously the extreme end of what might have happened, but global geopolitics now would be very different to what they are.

MungoMan wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:09 am

_Os_ wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:05 am I couldn't help looking up what the loony Pilger was saying about this war. I got as far as two paragraphs on Wiki and that was enough:

On the Poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal on 4 March 2018, Pilger said in an interview on Russia's RT: "This is a carefully constructed drama as part of the propaganda campaign that has been building now for several years in order to justify the actions of NATO, Britain and the United States, towards Russia. That's a fact". Such events as the Iraq War, "at the very least should make us sceptical of Theresa May's theatrics in Parliament". He hinted that the UK government may have been involved in the attack, saying it had motive and that the nearby Porton Down laboratory has a "long and sinister record with nerve gas and chemical weapons"

With the absence of a Russian "invasion" a bitter disappointment to its most avid promoters in London, this expose of Operation Orbital, the British army's secretive role in Ukraine, is recommended.
John Pilger, 3 days before Russian forces invaded Ukraine

"Operation Orbital" has it's own Wiki page, with many UK government links in the references, it was a publicly announced small training mission after Ukraine was invaded in 2014. I have no idea what there was to make an "expose" from.

There's a group of people like him that managed to spin an entire career out of being loudly anti-Vietnam War and anti-apartheid, they're taken seriously still for whatever reason. But anyway ... "The UK is responsible for the Skripal poisonings and Russia definitely isn't going to launch a full scale invasion of Ukraine, in fact the UK is provoking Russia by sending a few guys from the RAF regiment to do some training ... wait Russia did invade? It's NATO's fault Ukrainians don't want this war they want to relinquish half their nation and become a Russia vassal ... wait Ukrainians do want to fight and are winning? Fucking Nazis".

The next move these people always make is to ignore the subject entirely, because there's no way they can return to it without admitting they were wrong about basically everything. They can't talk about it with anyone who has any real knowledge, because they'll be told "that is total bullshit", so they move their roadshow to the next poor country. Carlson and the loony right have decided to go down the same path. They'll all end up deeply hating Ukraine because it'll be a reminder they were wrong.

Yeah, apartheid and the US / Sth Korea / Aus etc intevention in Vietnam were praiseworthy projects.

Go.Fúck.Yourself.

I think you failed to read his earlier post, before writing your excessive reaction. Notably this part.

A lot of his career was built on being anti-Vietnam war and then anti-apartheid, but when you dig into that things start getting weird. He starts from the absolutely correct position of being anti-apartheid and listing various crimes/wrongs, so far so good. Then as time passes he starts making claims which are bullshit but go uncorrected (because correcting them would put those doing the correcting in which camp?), he like others ended up basically equating capitalism to apartheid. He then starts making more claims about South African politics generally which were also wrong, the big one his cohort made was stating the IFP rank and file were apartheid supporters (when they were and still are just Zulu traditionalists that oppose socialism), they basically gave the ANC media aircover to fight (and kill) IFP activists