Kicking off in Israel

[Calculon]

https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... ne/677972/

[Guy Smiley]

Tell me why I should click that link

[Tilly Orifice]

Tell me why I should click that link

It's The Atlantic. Not really vital but probably useful. Behind a paywall, though.

[Calculon]

The investigation was always going to amount to nothing. At most it'll be "whoops we made a mistake, shit happens".

There's a risk of buying into a sort of horror fest I suppose in discussing these issues but for me, as appalling as the targetting of the aid convoy is, the revelations surrounding the use of AI as detailed above should be front and centre in any debate around criminality in this conflict. That lays bare the complete contempt this Israeli government harbour for Palestinians and the willingness of their military in carrying out what looks like atrocities on a horrific scale.

I've long held a sort of admiration for the ability and efficiency of the various IDF agencies. I'm old enough to remember the Munich Olympics massacre and the Entebbe rescue mission. Looking back at those events now and it's easy to see the narrative framing the protagonists with the usual and accepted labelling of Palestinians as terrorists and the heroics of a ruthless Israeli response.

This current conflict has completely changed my perspective. I've no problem seeing Hamas as a bunch of cunce who fit my label of active terrorists and I want to see them gone... a quick death seems inadequate. I've come to feel the same way about the current Israeli govt and the leadership of the IDF.

On top of that, though... is the horror of watching the 'civilised world' sit back and watch, doing nothing as what we like to call our humanity, our noble ideals are stripped away and trodden into blood soaked mud.

Over all else. Don't quite know how to process other than it's been tested and found so weak/self interested as to be complete bystanders while woman and children are slaughtered every day.

And eventually drops down the news a bit. Everyone burying heads in the sand waiting for some leadership, anyone at all to call it for the horror it is and take action. Predictably, only when western civilians are murdered do governments give a perfunctory shit.

Governments care more for their own citizens shocker, and thank fuck they do. I suspect most people don't care more because there's absolutely nothing they can do to that will have an effect on what's going on. I worked in Sudan and met many cool people there but apart from feeling some sadness for those people, I don't think there's much that can be done. And this is a country experiencing famine, malnutrition, rape and other violence against civilians far exceeding what's happening in Gaza.

Also there is the fact that theres a shit load of cunts in the Middle East. I support the Israelis, and think a ceasefire would be a mistake for a number of reasons, but I'm not blind to the fact that many are utterly dislikable cunts that have treated the Palistinians like shit. As for the Gaza Palistinians, most of them are delusional shit kicking cunts who support Hamas so what the fuck did they expect when Hamas attacked Isreali in that most barbaric sadistic way. Many of the people who "care" the most are also some of the biggest cunts around, like George Galloway and some in the pro pali protests.

[Calculon]

Tell me why I should click that link

You shouldn't

[lemonhead]

There's a risk of buying into a sort of horror fest I suppose in discussing these issues but for me, as appalling as the targetting of the aid convoy is, the revelations surrounding the use of AI as detailed above should be front and centre in any debate around criminality in this conflict. That lays bare the complete contempt this Israeli government harbour for Palestinians and the willingness of their military in carrying out what looks like atrocities on a horrific scale.

I've long held a sort of admiration for the ability and efficiency of the various IDF agencies. I'm old enough to remember the Munich Olympics massacre and the Entebbe rescue mission. Looking back at those events now and it's easy to see the narrative framing the protagonists with the usual and accepted labelling of Palestinians as terrorists and the heroics of a ruthless Israeli response.

This current conflict has completely changed my perspective. I've no problem seeing Hamas as a bunch of cunce who fit my label of active terrorists and I want to see them gone... a quick death seems inadequate. I've come to feel the same way about the current Israeli govt and the leadership of the IDF.

On top of that, though... is the horror of watching the 'civilised world' sit back and watch, doing nothing as what we like to call our humanity, our noble ideals are stripped away and trodden into blood soaked mud.

Over all else. Don't quite know how to process other than it's been tested and found so weak/self interested as to be complete bystanders while woman and children are slaughtered every day.

And eventually drops down the news a bit. Everyone burying heads in the sand waiting for some leadership, anyone at all to call it for the horror it is and take action. Predictably, only when western civilians are murdered do governments give a perfunctory shit.

Governments care more for their own citizens shocker, and thank fuck they do. I suspect most people don't care more because there's absolutely nothing they can do to that will have an effect on what's going on. I worked in Sudan and met many cool people there but apart from feeling some sadness for those people, I don't think there's much that can be done. And this is a country experiencing famine, malnutrition, rape and other violence against civilians far exceeding what's happening in Gaza.

Also there is the fact that theres a shit load of cunts in the Middle East. I support the Israelis, and think a ceasefire would be a mistake for a number of reasons, but I'm not blind to the fact that many are utterly dislikable cunts that have treated the Palistinians like shit. As for the Gaza Palistinians, most of them are delusional shit kicking cunts who support Hamas so what the fuck did they expect when Hamas attacked Isreali in that most barbaric sadistic way. Many of the people who "care" the most are also some of the biggest cunts around, like George Galloway and some in the pro pali protests.

You've been to Sudan and seen the lie of the land as it were, fair enough. I'll defer to your experience on what can and can't be done to sort that shitshow. Another debate. Not Britain's finest hour, once again, but a region that's been bitten, torn apart and fought over for scraps internally and by greater imperial powers for centuries. And yes, there is also a degree of hypocrisy up to a point that Gaza's front and centre where places less down the global food chain are not and never will be. That's probably where the question arises of self interest, obligation and how much can or should one nation do to sort out. Where would you stop (and more to the point, even start).

But hold that 'nothing can be done' thought and let's look at Gaza again, I'm not sure you've really thought this through. Israel did not exist a hundred years ago. That mass installation of a people into the area, resultant land grab and all the instability, hostility and conflict it caused is literally within two generations and 'we' basically made it happen. And hold a huge deal of moral responsibility not only for the conflagration, but are actively perpetuating the slaughter in continually supporting and arming Israel with the munitions it's killing defenceless women and children with. The last two years I've been struck by just how many people sat behind a keyboard in this part of the world with a safe neighbourhood, family, friends and civil society presume to judge the behaviour of those in squalor, desperation, death and hopelessness and how rational and oddly uniform their decision making is. Until we're willing to trade birdsong for bombs outside our window I'd hold that people are people everywhere around the world and want as close to a normal existence as possible. Food, shelter, jobs, opportunity, a living, family. Mentally 'othering' them is exactly where lessons from history should be smacking us full in the face.

30 years ago the sides came close to self determination and hard borders that might have seen both forge their own path and ignore the respective shower of bastards across the demilitarised zone. The chance was lost, political will shifted elsewhere, things festered and we now have well over 30,000 people dead in 6 months. If a prize opportunist cunt like Galloway can claim the moral high ground while governments keep the arms tap flowing unconditionally then what the hell does make the rest of us? Complicit. He's one of the only politicians to speak out about this - is it any wonder he's gained support.

Israel/Palestine may never be solved but rather than not even trying we're directly facilitating and watching on as an entire people get displaced, bombed, shot and now starved to death. We absolutely can do something about it - starting with the exact opposite of a lot of the things we currently are doing.

[Sandstorm]

Good post Lemonhead

[Tichtheid]

Good post Lemonhead

+1

[Tilly Orifice]

+ another one

[dpedin]

.... and me!

[Uncle fester]

Tell me why I should click that link

It's The Atlantic. Not really vital but probably useful. Behind a paywall, though.

Archive.ph Link
https://archive.ph/c63Jj

[Uncle fester]

Good post Lemonhead

Agreed. The "they've been fighting for millennia" brigade ignore the fact that this isn't purely a religious conflict. It's also a Western style colonisation/land grab conflict.

I've come around to the view that the two state solution won't work because Israel will never let it work. That leaves a one state rainbow nation solution as the remaining option.

Sure that means no more "Jewish state for a Jewish people" but like the Protestants in NI, they had their chance and fücked it up

[Tilly Orifice]

Tell me why I should click that link

It's The Atlantic. Not really vital but probably useful. Behind a paywall, though.

Archive.ph Link
https://archive.ph/c63Jj

Yes, I use that archive site to view pages that are paywalled, it's invaluable. Most often it will have already been archived and you can view it immediately. Occasionally it will take a bit longer because you are the first, and you're archiving the page so that everybody else can view it.
In which case you're entitled to feel very pleased with yourself.

[Uncle fester]

It's The Atlantic. Not really vital but probably useful. Behind a paywall, though.

Archive.ph Link
https://archive.ph/c63Jj

Yes, I use that archive site to view pages that are paywalled, it's invaluable. Most often it will have already been archived and you can view it immediately. Occasionally it will take a bit longer because you are the first, and you're archiving the page so that everybody else can view it.
In which case you're entitled to feel very pleased with yourself.

It's well worth a read. Essentially, US needs to make a call in whether Israel as an ally is more trouble than they are worth.

[Ymx]

Well, they have a story / sequence of events

The drone unit saw multiple suspicious actions, starting after 10 p.m. Monday.

First, the drone unit said it saw a Hamas terrorist climb onto one of the trucks and fire in the air at what it called action point two.

Advertisement

According to the IDF, this tactic is frequent and is used by Hamas to send signals to other Hamas fighters in the area regarding his position.

A Palestinian inspects near a vehicle where employees from the World Central Kitchen (WCK), including foreigners, were killed in an Israeli airstrike (credit: Ahmed Zakot/Reuters)

A Palestinian inspects near a vehicle where employees from the World Central Kitchen (WCK), including foreigners, were killed in an Israeli airstrike (credit: Ahmed Zakot/Reuters)

At action point three, the convoy split up.

At action point four, the convoy entered a hangar, which obscured which vehicles might be going in and out and who might be in the vehicles compared to who was in the vehicles before entering the hangar.

IDF unable to reach aid workers

In the first four action points, the IDF drone unit refrained from attacking the aid trucks, because they questioned their commanders and were ordered by Division 162 Brig. Gen. Itzik Cohen not to, despite a suspicion of Hamas terrorists being involved. IDF tried to call aid workers, was unable to reach them.

At the fifth action point, the aid trucks had left the hangar.
Advertisement

As the events developed, the IDF tried to call the aid workers involved in the field and was unable to reach them.

Next, the IDF called the WCK headquarters. The WCK headquarters tried to call its own aid workers in the field, but they did not answer.

When vehicles left the hangar, the IDF drone unit believed that these were not the same vehicles and thought that these were Hamas vehicles or that around four Hamas operatives had joined or taken over the convoy.
According to the IDF, attacking the trucks after all of this was a mistaken identity issue but could not lead to criminal charges.

Accordingly, the drone unit believed the order not to attack no longer applied.

Around a kilometer later, around 11:09 p.m., the drone unit believed it had the right to engage the trucks.

Also, the drone unit had thermal imaging that did not see the WCK aid worker sign posted on the roof of the trucks.
When the drone unit attacked three separate times in succession, it believed that the “coast was clear” completely to attack what it thought were clearly Hamas targets.

https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-795514

[Kiwias]

Good post Lemonhead

+1

+ me

[Ymx]

Depressing reading

Just one in four British Muslims believe Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel

Findings show ‘failure of counter-extremism policy’ and confirm a lot of ‘work needs to be done’ to challenge old anti-Semitic tropes

Camilla Turner,
SUNDAY POLITICAL EDITOR
6 April 2024 • 7:43pm

2233
Fiyaz Mughal is the founder of two non-profit organisations that work for interfaith dialogue and against anti-Muslim hate crime
Only one in four British Muslims believe that Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on Oct 7, a major report has found.

46 per cent of British Muslims said they sympathise with Hamas, according to a poll commissioned by the Henry Jackson Society (HJS), a counter-extremism think-tank.

The survey, which is the largest of its kind to be carried out since the Israel-Hamas conflict began, asked a range of questions to British Muslims as well as to the general public.

Its findings come on the six-month anniversary of the Oct 7 massacre, when Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel, killed around 1,200 citizens and took 253 people hostage.

The survey also found that just over half (52 per cent) of British Muslims want to make it illegal to show a picture of the Prophet Mohammed, compared to just 16 per cent of the public.

A third of British Muslims (32 per cent) want to see Shariah law implemented in the UK versus nine per cent of the public.

Younger and well-educated Muslims were the most likely to think Hamas did not commit atrocities on Oct 7, with the proportions rising to 47 per cent among 18 to 24-year-olds and 40 per cent among the university-educated.

Mr Mughal says findings were 'shocking but also not shocking'
Mr Mughal says findings were 'shocking but also not shocking' CREDIT: KEN RAKE/CAMERA PRESS
Last night, ministers were urged to step up their efforts to counter extreme narratives. Fiyaz Mughal, who founded interfaith groups Tell Mama, Faith Matters and Muslims Against Anti-Semitism, said the findings are “shocking but also not shocking”.

He said: “Hamas is an Islamist extremist and terrorist group and has been terrorising Gazans, Israelis and liberals within society for decades.

“The sense that Hamas did not conduct massacres and rapes in Israel is atrocious because it shows a closed-off mentality to anything emanating from Israel.”

The survey was carried out by J L Partners, the polling company which was founded by James Johnson, the former Downing Street pollster.

It also found that almost half (46 per cent) of British Muslims say Jews have too much power over UK government policy, compared to 16 per cent of the general public.

Among British Muslims, 41 per cent said Jews have too much power in the media industry and 39 per cent said Jews have too much power in the UK’s financial system.

‘At risk of social cohesion problem’
Mr Mughal said: “The findings confirm that a lot of work needs to be done to inform, challenge, and address old anti-Semitic tropes that are still circulating among some of my co-religionists.

“The Government has got to provide better guidance for teachers, schools and education establishments. The investment needs to happen as soon as possible because we are at real risk of a social cohesion problem.”

Asked whether Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on Oct 7, 24 per cent of British Muslims said they had, compared to 62 per cent of the general public.

A further 39 per cent of British Muslims said Hamas did not commit atrocities, and 37 per cent said they did not know whether they had or had not.

A plan is needed
Alan Mendoza, the executive director of HJS, said the findings show “the failure of counter-extremism policy over the years”.

He added: “What is probably going wrong is an unwillingness to tackle this kind of extremism for fear of being labelled Islamophobic or racist. There is a reluctance to call it out in the same way that people are very happy to call out far-Right extremism.

“The Government needs to find a way of supporting and strengthening the voice of moderate Muslims and drive the extremist narrative to the sidelines.”

A government spokesperson said: “We have recently set out a series of measures which will promote social cohesion and counter religious hatred. Our plan will tackle division in our communities and ensure that we are protecting our democratic freedoms across the country.”

[C69]

Depressing reading

Just one in four British Muslims believe Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel

Findings show ‘failure of counter-extremism policy’ and confirm a lot of ‘work needs to be done’ to challenge old anti-Semitic tropes

Camilla Turner,
SUNDAY POLITICAL EDITOR
6 April 2024 • 7:43pm

2233
Fiyaz Mughal is the founder of two non-profit organisations that work for interfaith dialogue and against anti-Muslim hate crime
Only one in four British Muslims believe that Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on Oct 7, a major report has found.

46 per cent of British Muslims said they sympathise with Hamas, according to a poll commissioned by the Henry Jackson Society (HJS), a counter-extremism think-tank.

The survey, which is the largest of its kind to be carried out since the Israel-Hamas conflict began, asked a range of questions to British Muslims as well as to the general public.

Its findings come on the six-month anniversary of the Oct 7 massacre, when Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel, killed around 1,200 citizens and took 253 people hostage.

The survey also found that just over half (52 per cent) of British Muslims want to make it illegal to show a picture of the Prophet Mohammed, compared to just 16 per cent of the public.

A third of British Muslims (32 per cent) want to see Shariah law implemented in the UK versus nine per cent of the public.

Younger and well-educated Muslims were the most likely to think Hamas did not commit atrocities on Oct 7, with the proportions rising to 47 per cent among 18 to 24-year-olds and 40 per cent among the university-educated.

Mr Mughal says findings were 'shocking but also not shocking'
Mr Mughal says findings were 'shocking but also not shocking' CREDIT: KEN RAKE/CAMERA PRESS
Last night, ministers were urged to step up their efforts to counter extreme narratives. Fiyaz Mughal, who founded interfaith groups Tell Mama, Faith Matters and Muslims Against Anti-Semitism, said the findings are “shocking but also not shocking”.

He said: “Hamas is an Islamist extremist and terrorist group and has been terrorising Gazans, Israelis and liberals within society for decades.

“The sense that Hamas did not conduct massacres and rapes in Israel is atrocious because it shows a closed-off mentality to anything emanating from Israel.”

The survey was carried out by J L Partners, the polling company which was founded by James Johnson, the former Downing Street pollster.

It also found that almost half (46 per cent) of British Muslims say Jews have too much power over UK government policy, compared to 16 per cent of the general public.

Among British Muslims, 41 per cent said Jews have too much power in the media industry and 39 per cent said Jews have too much power in the UK’s financial system.

‘At risk of social cohesion problem’
Mr Mughal said: “The findings confirm that a lot of work needs to be done to inform, challenge, and address old anti-Semitic tropes that are still circulating among some of my co-religionists.

“The Government has got to provide better guidance for teachers, schools and education establishments. The investment needs to happen as soon as possible because we are at real risk of a social cohesion problem.”

Asked whether Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on Oct 7, 24 per cent of British Muslims said they had, compared to 62 per cent of the general public.

A further 39 per cent of British Muslims said Hamas did not commit atrocities, and 37 per cent said they did not know whether they had or had not.

A plan is needed
Alan Mendoza, the executive director of HJS, said the findings show “the failure of counter-extremism policy over the years”.

He added: “What is probably going wrong is an unwillingness to tackle this kind of extremism for fear of being labelled Islamophobic or racist. There is a reluctance to call it out in the same way that people are very happy to call out far-Right extremism.

“The Government needs to find a way of supporting and strengthening the voice of moderate Muslims and drive the extremist narrative to the sidelines.”

A government spokesperson said: “We have recently set out a series of measures which will promote social cohesion and counter religious hatred. Our plan will tackle division in our communities and ensure that we are protecting our democratic freedoms across the country.”

Ymx do you believe that the IDF has carried out murder and sexual assaults?

[Calculon]

C69, do find it worrying that only 24 percent of British Muslims think Hamas carried out murder and rape? Btw, the IDF have charged its soldiers with murder before

https://thecjn.ca/news/idf-soldier-char ... ow-so-far/

[C69]

C69, do find it worrying that only 24 percent of British Muslims think Hamas carried out murder and rape? Btw, the IDF have charged its soldiers with murder before

https://thecjn.ca/news/idf-soldier-char ... ow-so-far/

I would have no issue if the leaders of HAMAS and Israel were expunged.
And I find it I incredulous that people especially on the left forget what a vile theocratic reactionary bunch of cnuts HAMAS and many of their affiliates are.
Anyone who supports either the Terrorist cnus in HAMAS or the murderous bastards of Bibi and the IDF needs a kick in the balls.
It's pretty easy really, both sides are cunts.
But ATM one side is killing and raping and abusing in the name of Yahhew with impunity

[Ymx]

I think the point calculon was making was that whilst there are despicable acts which are committed …

On one side it is deliberate barbarism on civilians as a strategy.

Whereas on the other there is accountability for actions.

[Guy Smiley]

I think the point calculon was making was that whilst there are despicable acts which are committed …

On one side it is deliberate barbarism on civilians as a strategy.

Whereas on the other there is accountability for actions.

Oh yeah... where's the accountability for 70 years of brutal oppression, the jailing of minors, the systematic raping andbeating of landholders before stealing that land...


and the rest.

You guys really struggle to accept that there are two sides to the brutality. You've completely swallowed the propaganda bait.

[Ymx]

I think the point calculon was making was that whilst there are despicable acts which are committed …

On one side it is deliberate barbarism on civilians as a strategy.

Whereas on the other there is accountability for actions.

Oh yeah... where's the accountability for 70 years of brutal oppression, the jailing of minors, the systematic raping andbeating of landholders before stealing that land...


and the rest.

You guys really struggle to accept that there are two sides to the brutality. You've completely swallowed the propaganda bait.

Would you say Hamas raped and murdered on Oct 7th?

Even you would acknowledge this right? You’d have to be a massive cvnt to deny it right??

Why are 75% of UK Muslims fall in to this category? such indoctrinated cvnts?

[C69]

I think the point calculon was making was that whilst there are despicable acts which are committed …

On one side it is deliberate barbarism on civilians as a strategy.

Whereas on the other there is accountability for actions.

Oh yeah... where's the accountability for 70 years of brutal oppression, the jailing of minors, the systematic raping andbeating of landholders before stealing that land...


and the rest.

You guys really struggle to accept that there are two sides to the brutality. You've completely swallowed the propaganda bait.

Would you say Hamas raped and murdered on Oct 7th?

Even you would acknowledge this right? You’d have to be a massive cvnt to deny it right??

Why are 75% of UK Muslims fall in to this category? such indoctrinated cvnts?

75% of UK Muslims?
Please post your evidence.
It seems a bit made up, like some sort of ffar right racist shit.

[Ymx]

It was above in the telegraph article, about the study. You even responded to it.

Are you ok??

[C69]

It was above in the article. You even responded to it.

Are you ok??

No it doesn't actually.
What specifically are you asserting? That's my point, your generalisation. Be specific and say what these 75% believe.
It's not exactly what you stated.
It was a bit of a generalisation from a poorly written article.

[Ymx]

It’s in the headline and right of the beginning

Just one in four British Muslims believe Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel

Findings show ‘failure of counter-extremism policy’ and confirm a lot of ‘work needs to be done’ to challenge old anti-Semitic tropes

Camilla Turner,
SUNDAY POLITICAL EDITOR
6 April 2024 • 7:43pm

2233
Fiyaz Mughal is the founder of two non-profit organisations that work for interfaith dialogue and against anti-Muslim hate crime
Only one in four British Muslims believe that Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on Oct 7, a major report has found.

[Tichtheid]

Well, I can't find the poll itself, I'm sure YMX will provide the link since he's putting so much stock in it.

However,

The Henry Jackson Society (HJS) is a trans-Atlantic foreign policy and national security think tank, based in the United Kingdom. While describing itself as non-partisan, its outlook has been described variously as "right-wing",[1][2][3][4] neoliberal[5][6] and as neoconservative.[7][8][9] The Society identifies itself with a "forward strategy" to spread democracy and liberal values globally.[10] It is currently focused primarily on supporting global democracy in the face of threats from China and Russia.[11][12][failed verification] The Society is also known for its reports related to Islamic[13] and far-right extremism.[14] The Society is named after the US Senator and leading Democrat, Henry M. Jackson. American political journalist, Michael Allen, described the society as "a non-partisan group that convenes transatlantic center-left, center-right and independent figures committed to Jackson's legacy of 'democratic geopolitics.'"[15]

and

Think-tank discussions on the Middle East and Islam have led to some media organisations criticising the Society for a perceived anti-Muslim agenda. Marko Attila Hoare, a former senior member, cited related reasons for leaving the think tank and Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy was urged, in 2015, to sever his links with the Society.[58][60]
According to a report by the Cordoba Foundation in 2015, "right-wing politics is apparent not only in the ideas that the Henry Jackson Society promotes, but also emerges distinctly on examination of its funders".[61]
The Muslim Council of Britain criticised the Society in 2017 for making "oblique references to the usual slurs levelled at Muslims: that Muslims do not integrate, are not part and parcel of British society, and are therefore likely to be terrorists".[62]
Co-founder Matthew Jamison, who now works for YouGov, wrote in 2017 that he was ashamed of his involvement, having never imagined the Henry Jackson Society "would become a far-right, deeply anti-Muslim racist ... propaganda outfit to smear other cultures, religions and ethnic groups". He claimed that "The HJS for many years has relentlessly demonised Muslims and Islam".[63]
In 2020, the Society paid damages to the UK Muslim educational channel Huda Television Ltd, having confused it in 2018 with the similarly named Egyptian station, Huda TV, which it accused of a "radical agenda" and hosting islamic extremist content.[64]

Just the same old stuff, in other words.

[lemonhead]

Ok, so that's half an hour I'm never getting back. Long since learned to read the article and not the headline.

C69's not too far wrong in asking about methodology and findings. There's nearly four million muslims in the UK so my immediate interest was just how you get all those individual views. Of course you don't. They interviewed a thousand.

And reading through the survey question 14.05 the results are: 24% yes they did, 38% no they didn't and 38% don't know. Interesting to read a question slightly further down on positive/negative views of Hamas you get 29% positive, 24% negative, 32% neutral and 15% don't know. What did give me pause was the male responses being closer to mainstream consensus than female. We can draw our own conclusions all day, that figure is far too high for my liking but it's also not exactly screaming 3,000,000 Hamas apologists at me.

Also not heard of the Henry Jackson Society before but a quick glance at their credentials and I'm not 100% convinced they wouldn't prefer these sorts of headlines got airtime. Then I came across a post by one of their founders.

The original purpose of the Henry Jackson Society was to make the argument for a values based foreign policy open to humanitarian intervention and promoting democracy and human rights. It was never supposed to be an anti-Islam, anti-Muslim racist organisation, peddling bigotry and most certainly never a smear, propaganda vehicle for foreign governments to wage disinformation campaigns against their regional bugbears. Sadly, however that is exactly what it has degenerated into.

Edit - Meh, TH beat me to it.

[Uncle fester]

Did they get their 1000 respondents in a prison for example? Maybe jailed for Islamic extremism perhaps?

I am skeptical.

[Sandstorm]

If Hamas attacked Egypt I suspect the number of Brit Muslims calling it wrong would be much higher. Israel and the vote is skewed every time.

[Ymx]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... as-israel/

1000 is a perfectly adequate sample size as long as it is done randomly. Statistically you can get accurate results from plenty less. I don’t recall the exact numbers but 1000 will get you within a couple of percent with high certainty.

I expect a lot in the don’t know camp are playing cards close to chest for reasons.

Even if you take the 38% who outright reject the atrocities. You have 1,500,000 “screaming apologists”. With a further 1.5m who can’t decide.

So, it is not insignificant, nor should it be discarded.

[Ymx]

And let’s not forget the 1,200,000 UK Muslims (+/- 36k) who are positive about Hamas. With another 1.9m on the fence about them.

[lemonhead]

UK polling data is pretty accurate, they speak to roughly one in 500 people. This is one in 4000, but let's say that's still completely accurate. I'm not sold on completely disregarding nuance and putting all the undecideds in someone's camp of choice, almost like you know their individual thoughts on this. Hell, why stop there - even the ones who are against Hamas are probably lying too. Coz they would, wouldn't they...

A heavily negative view of Israel is absolutely a trend. More so than in the second survey of the general public (2000 this time) which is more middle ground, far more realistic about Oct 7th and essentially a plague on both their houses.

Even then though you get responses like this one I noted down, a question on who people sympathise with more: 16% Hamas, 27% Israel and the rest don't know or neutral. Some fun headlines in there if one so wished.

'1 in 5 UK residents backing Hamas'
'Only 1 in 4 support Israel'
'3 in 5 UK residents DON'T KNOW'. My personal favourite

Whole thing just gives air to the lies, damned lies and selective poll data line of argument. But people see whatever they want to I guess

[Ymx]

UK polling data is pretty accurate, they speak to roughly one in 500 people. This is one in 4000, but let's say that's still completely accurate. I'm not sold on completely disregarding nuance and putting all the undecideds in someone's camp of choice, almost like you know their individual thoughts on this. Hell, why stop there - even the ones who are against Hamas are probably lying too. Coz they would, wouldn't they...

A heavily negative view of Israel is absolutely a trend. More so than in the second survey of the general public (2000 this time) which is more middle ground, far more realistic about Oct 7th and essentially a plague on both their houses.

Even then though you get responses like this one I noted down, a question on who people sympathise with more: 16% Hamas, 27% Israel and the rest don't know or neutral. Some fun headlines in there if one so wished.

'1 in 5 UK residents backing Hamas'
'Only 1 in 4 support Israel'
'3 in 5 UK residents DON'T KNOW'. My personal favourite

Whole thing just gives air to the lies, damned lies and selective poll data line of argument. But people see whatever they want to I guess

Are you not concerned about the estimated 1.2m UK Muslims who have nailed their flag to the mast ?

[Ymx]

Stats calculator

https://www.calculator.net/sample-size- ... =Calculate

+/- 3% for a 1000 sample size (with pop of 4m)

[lemonhead]

UK polling data is pretty accurate, they speak to roughly one in 500 people. This is one in 4000, but let's say that's still completely accurate. I'm not sold on completely disregarding nuance and putting all the undecideds in someone's camp of choice, almost like you know their individual thoughts on this. Hell, why stop there - even the ones who are against Hamas are probably lying too. Coz they would, wouldn't they...

A heavily negative view of Israel is absolutely a trend. More so than in the second survey of the general public (2000 this time) which is more middle ground, far more realistic about Oct 7th and essentially a plague on both their houses.

Even then though you get responses like this one I noted down, a question on who people sympathise with more: 16% Hamas, 27% Israel and the rest don't know or neutral. Some fun headlines in there if one so wished.

'1 in 5 UK residents backing Hamas'
'Only 1 in 4 support Israel'
'3 in 5 UK residents DON'T KNOW'. My personal favourite

Whole thing just gives air to the lies, damned lies and selective poll data line of argument. But people see whatever they want to I guess

Are you not concerned about the estimated 1.2m UK Muslims who have nailed their flag to the mast ?

I'm more concerned about your friendship group mate.

According to that second survey, 1 in 5 of them support Hamas. Tread carefully down the pub.

[Ymx]

Forgetting the unknowns.

That 16%, if the case is very bad.

I'd expect the weekly hate marches to have a worryingly high concentration. And therefore not just rogue pro Hamas individuals, which has been painted as such.

[C T]

UK polling data is pretty accurate, they speak to roughly one in 500 people. This is one in 4000, but let's say that's still completely accurate. I'm not sold on completely disregarding nuance and putting all the undecideds in someone's camp of choice, almost like you know their individual thoughts on this. Hell, why stop there - even the ones who are against Hamas are probably lying too. Coz they would, wouldn't they...

A heavily negative view of Israel is absolutely a trend. More so than in the second survey of the general public (2000 this time) which is more middle ground, far more realistic about Oct 7th and essentially a plague on both their houses.

Even then though you get responses like this one I noted down, a question on who people sympathise with more: 16% Hamas, 27% Israel and the rest don't know or neutral. Some fun headlines in there if one so wished.

'1 in 5 UK residents backing Hamas'
'Only 1 in 4 support Israel'
'3 in 5 UK residents DON'T KNOW'. My personal favourite

Whole thing just gives air to the lies, damned lies and selective poll data line of argument. But people see whatever they want to I guess

Are you not concerned about the estimated 1.2m UK Muslims who have nailed their flag to the mast ?

The terminology here is going a little far isn't it?

When propaganda is running wild I can't blame people being sceptical. I particularly can't blame Muslims for being more on the side of Hamas than they are Israel. Which in essence, when it comes down to it is what this survey was putting the people answering in that position. Hamas or Israel? In various different questions.

I don't think Muslims leaning more towards Hamas than towards Israel is a particularly extreme view.

If the question was more along the lines of "Are you ready to take up a bit of terrorism in your support for Hamas?" then yes I would be concerned.

I'm fairly sceptical about stuff coming from either side and I've got zero skin in this.

[Sandstorm]

At this point if you asked them what's worse:

1) Hamas
2) Israel
3) Bowel cancer

....you'd still have 25% unsure.