And what would those % be in the Nordics? Probably about the same. Wow! Definitive proof Scotland is like the Nordics! (and England as well, but let's forget about that, eh).
Of course (nearly) everyone agrees that equality etc. are good things.
Far from everyone agrees what equality actually means in practice - is paying progressively more tax because you're rich 'equality'? Is favouring women and people of colour for certain jobs 'equality'? Are tuition fees for higher education 'equality'? Depending on where you stand politically, you can argue convincingly for Yes and No on all three.
The Scottish Politics Thread
Tichtheid - unless you have any evidence the polling was maliciously skewed or un representative I'm am not sure what you are trying to insinuate.
Secondly l disagree that a map of FPTP results someone invalidates the poll - I think most votes for the SNP are driven by nationalism and some of that nationalism may be driven by the perception there are different values in Scotland to the rest of the UK. What this polling (and previous polling) reveals is this is not actually the case.
Also interesting is the attitudes on immigration: https://fpc.org.uk/divided-kingdom-how- ... eferences/
Secondly l disagree that a map of FPTP results someone invalidates the poll - I think most votes for the SNP are driven by nationalism and some of that nationalism may be driven by the perception there are different values in Scotland to the rest of the UK. What this polling (and previous polling) reveals is this is not actually the case.
Also interesting is the attitudes on immigration: https://fpc.org.uk/divided-kingdom-how- ... eferences/
However, closer analysis of attitudes towards immigration reveals a picture nowhere near as clear-cut. In a research project undertaken by NatCen,[6] Scottish and English participants were asked to rate both the economic and cultural impact of immigration. In spite of the perceived differences between Scottish and English public opinion on the matter, participants from both nations responded almost identically.
Trying to Insinuate? Nothing.
I thought I was pointing out the bleeding obvious, that the questions will obviously gain a positive and similar response no matter where you ask them.
When it comes to immigration, for example, the policies of the Tories and SNP are very different, when it comes to voting in a UK election there are very different results in Scotland and England.
If you want to promote Gordon Brown's view you might want to take a look at the Scotsman today.
Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown has warned Boris Johnson to drop his “muscular unionism” approach to devolution as new polling revealed people in all nations of the UK are “moving closer together” in their shared values.
Mr Brown said polling for his think-tank Our Scottish Future showed Scots wanted more co-operation rather than confrontation between the Scottish and UK governments and accused Mr Johnson of seeking to “bypass co-operation and impose his view on Scotland".
He said the Internal Market Act, the shared prosperity fund and the Prime Minister’s remark that “devolution is a disaster” amounted to Mr Johnson’s belief “we should really just be ruled by him from London”.
Mr Brown said: “That’s got no support, in my view, in Scotland other than in the very die-hard Conservatives who will just go along with whatever Boris Johnson has to say.
“So we don't want muscular unionism, nor do we want the SNP stand-off. What we want is to offer the hand of co-operation and see whether you can make a success of that, as we did, in fact, with vaccination out of necessity, and to make co-operation one of the guiding principles of looking forward.
“And if Boris Johnson was to offer the hand of co-operation and it be refused, then people would know exactly who was to blame for the lack of co-operation.”
Mr Brown said as Covid progressed, people had become more concerned about jobs and social care. The polling of 2,000 people in England, 1,000 in Scotland and 500 in Wales found each nation identified making the NHS the best healthcare system in the world as their top priority.
Some 47 per cent of respondents in Wales, 42 per cent in Scotland and 41 per cent in England identified the NHS as their number one issue. Most respondents in each of the nations also identified diversity, freedom, tolerance and equality as important.
“What's the lesson I take from this for the politics? You've got to drop muscular unionism work. Conservative, muscular unionism will fail, it cannot succeed,” Mr Brown said.
“You cannot ride roughshod over local decision making. You can't ignore the need for partnership between Scotland and the UK, you can’t call devolution a disaster, you can't solve this problem by putting up more Union jacks or labelling bridges as British and bypassing the democratic institutions that exist.
“It's basically a failure, the same as the Nationalist failure, to recognise that people should not have to choose between being Scottish and British.”
The polling showed there was 40 per cent of the Scottish electorate, which Mr Brown has branded “Middle Scotland”, which felt slightly more Scottish than British, but did not yet support independence. Thirty per cent were supportive of the union, while 30 per cent backed independence.
The survey also revealed that if independence supporters believed England was tolerant and respectful of diversity and race, they would feel “warmer” towards the country.
Further, if England was represented by the values of people such as national football manager Gareth Southgate and footballer Marcus Rashford, instead of Mr Johnson’s government, 53 per cent of Nationalists said they would feel more positive towards England.
Mr Brown said the findings overall made it harder for those in support of independence for either country to argue there are significant differences from other parts of the UK and the nations are “moving closer together, not further apart”.
He said: “There is a danger that the next general election in Britain will be formed as a battle between a Conservative party that makes the future of the union the issue, and plays an English card and says Scottish nationalism is preventing Britain moving forward, and then claims Labour will make a pact with the SNP, which, of course, is a lie, but claims and continues to claim that.
"And then you have an election fought on Scotland versus England or Scotland versus Britain. And that that's a real possibility.
“To fight on the Scottish issue is an option open to Boris Johnson, and that plays into hands of Nicola Sturgeon. But I think that what's going to happen is that some of these bigger issues in terms of social and economic policies are going to come to the forefront. And people will start to understand the importance of co-operation.
“Now Nicola Sturgeon has picked up on co-operation in her conference speech because she’s been reading the same polls on people wanting co-operation, but did so in the most ridiculous way, that co-operation is on making Scotland independent, not on the issues that worry people at all.”
The polling also found that a dignified retirement for older people, tackling climate change and fighting inequality were all high on the list of priorities, while just 20 per cent of Scottish respondents identified referendums on independence north of the border or in Wales as a top priority. This dropped to 9 per cent among Welsh respondents.
Mr Brown said the results contradicted the SNP’s “central argument for the break-up of Britain – that we cannot be Scottish and British or Welsh and British at the same time”.
“When it comes to values, there is across England, Scotland and Wales similar levels of support for equality and tolerance, and for diversity, with the same levels of support for giving priority to the NHS, good jobs and climate change,” the former prime minister said.
“In their values and choice of priorities, Scotland and England and Wales are moving closer together, not further apart.”
Mr Brown said polling for his think-tank Our Scottish Future showed Scots wanted more co-operation rather than confrontation between the Scottish and UK governments and accused Mr Johnson of seeking to “bypass co-operation and impose his view on Scotland".
He said the Internal Market Act, the shared prosperity fund and the Prime Minister’s remark that “devolution is a disaster” amounted to Mr Johnson’s belief “we should really just be ruled by him from London”.
Mr Brown said: “That’s got no support, in my view, in Scotland other than in the very die-hard Conservatives who will just go along with whatever Boris Johnson has to say.
“So we don't want muscular unionism, nor do we want the SNP stand-off. What we want is to offer the hand of co-operation and see whether you can make a success of that, as we did, in fact, with vaccination out of necessity, and to make co-operation one of the guiding principles of looking forward.
“And if Boris Johnson was to offer the hand of co-operation and it be refused, then people would know exactly who was to blame for the lack of co-operation.”
Mr Brown said as Covid progressed, people had become more concerned about jobs and social care. The polling of 2,000 people in England, 1,000 in Scotland and 500 in Wales found each nation identified making the NHS the best healthcare system in the world as their top priority.
Some 47 per cent of respondents in Wales, 42 per cent in Scotland and 41 per cent in England identified the NHS as their number one issue. Most respondents in each of the nations also identified diversity, freedom, tolerance and equality as important.
“What's the lesson I take from this for the politics? You've got to drop muscular unionism work. Conservative, muscular unionism will fail, it cannot succeed,” Mr Brown said.
“You cannot ride roughshod over local decision making. You can't ignore the need for partnership between Scotland and the UK, you can’t call devolution a disaster, you can't solve this problem by putting up more Union jacks or labelling bridges as British and bypassing the democratic institutions that exist.
“It's basically a failure, the same as the Nationalist failure, to recognise that people should not have to choose between being Scottish and British.”
The polling showed there was 40 per cent of the Scottish electorate, which Mr Brown has branded “Middle Scotland”, which felt slightly more Scottish than British, but did not yet support independence. Thirty per cent were supportive of the union, while 30 per cent backed independence.
The survey also revealed that if independence supporters believed England was tolerant and respectful of diversity and race, they would feel “warmer” towards the country.
Further, if England was represented by the values of people such as national football manager Gareth Southgate and footballer Marcus Rashford, instead of Mr Johnson’s government, 53 per cent of Nationalists said they would feel more positive towards England.
Mr Brown said the findings overall made it harder for those in support of independence for either country to argue there are significant differences from other parts of the UK and the nations are “moving closer together, not further apart”.
He said: “There is a danger that the next general election in Britain will be formed as a battle between a Conservative party that makes the future of the union the issue, and plays an English card and says Scottish nationalism is preventing Britain moving forward, and then claims Labour will make a pact with the SNP, which, of course, is a lie, but claims and continues to claim that.
"And then you have an election fought on Scotland versus England or Scotland versus Britain. And that that's a real possibility.
“To fight on the Scottish issue is an option open to Boris Johnson, and that plays into hands of Nicola Sturgeon. But I think that what's going to happen is that some of these bigger issues in terms of social and economic policies are going to come to the forefront. And people will start to understand the importance of co-operation.
“Now Nicola Sturgeon has picked up on co-operation in her conference speech because she’s been reading the same polls on people wanting co-operation, but did so in the most ridiculous way, that co-operation is on making Scotland independent, not on the issues that worry people at all.”
The polling also found that a dignified retirement for older people, tackling climate change and fighting inequality were all high on the list of priorities, while just 20 per cent of Scottish respondents identified referendums on independence north of the border or in Wales as a top priority. This dropped to 9 per cent among Welsh respondents.
Mr Brown said the results contradicted the SNP’s “central argument for the break-up of Britain – that we cannot be Scottish and British or Welsh and British at the same time”.
“When it comes to values, there is across England, Scotland and Wales similar levels of support for equality and tolerance, and for diversity, with the same levels of support for giving priority to the NHS, good jobs and climate change,” the former prime minister said.
“In their values and choice of priorities, Scotland and England and Wales are moving closer together, not further apart.”
16 hours. That is how long a patient waited for us to arrive the other week, 12 hours last week. Don't even bat an eye at 3 and 4 hours. Meanwhile we'll spend millions on a Special Operation Response Team ("just in case") and we'll stick 2 paramedics on a mental health vehicle to do a couple of jobs a week. So if any of you live in Tayside or North Fife that's part of the reason your lived one's are waiting so long.
In Aberdeen your loved one will be sitting in an ambulance outside the ED for a few hours because their triage system is shite.
Rather than tackle the reason people are addicted to drugs we'll spend money on dishing out "Take Home Naloxone" which folk more often than not accept for the 2 clean needles in each kit. Street valium is a bigger problem than heroin at them minute btw.
That is truly terrible, the Scottish Ambulance service is better resourced than its counterpart down here on the south coast of England, in terms of employees per head of population anyway. The South Coast Ambulance Service has several changes of leadership and has been put into special measures due to all sorts of issues, bullying, awful response times poorly maintained equipment etc.
I see the SG is to recruit army personnel to help, this is already in place in some parts of England.
The phones were given to prisoners during lockdown as they couldn't be visited, they were supposed to be unhackable, but it seems it was as easy as changing a sim card in some cases.But they can spend £2m on mobile phones for prisoners to buy drugs.
I don't know what would have been a better way to go about it, but there is strong evidence to support the argument that recidivism is lowest in systems which are seen the most "liberal".
I read something about Barlinnie the other day, they are trying to tackle addiction as a way to cut down on trafficking.
The latest one was 40 hours with his GP called numerous times telling them it was urgent, sadly he died.Jock42 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:23 pm16 hours. That is how long a patient waited for us to arrive the other week, 12 hours last week. Don't even bat an eye at 3 and 4 hours. Meanwhile we'll spend millions on a Special Operation Response Team ("just in case") and we'll stick 2 paramedics on a mental health vehicle to do a couple of jobs a week. So if any of you live in Tayside or North Fife that's part of the reason your lived one's are waiting so long.
In Aberdeen your loved one will be sitting in an ambulance outside the ED for a few hours because their triage system is shite.
Rather than tackle the reason people are addicted to drugs we'll spend money on dishing out "Take Home Naloxone" which folk more often than not accept for the 2 clean needles in each kit. Street valium is a bigger problem than heroin at them minute btw.
Someone was saying in the HeraldTichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:26 pmThat is truly terrible, the Scottish Ambulance service is better resourced than its counterpart down here on the south coast of England, in terms of employees per head of population anyway. The South Coast Ambulance Service has several changes of leadership and has been put into special measures due to all sorts of issues, bullying, awful response times poorly maintained equipment etc.
I see the SG is to recruit army personnel to help, this is already in place in some parts of England.
The phones were given to prisoners during lockdown as they couldn't be visited, they were supposed to be unhackable, but it seems it was as easy as changing a sim card in some cases.But they can spend £2m on mobile phones for prisoners to buy drugs.
I don't know what would have been a better way to go about it, but there is strong evidence to support the argument that recidivism is lowest in systems which are seen the most "liberal".
I read something about Barlinnie the other day, they are trying to tackle addiction as a way to cut down on trafficking.
In the Stirling area, 1500 applied for ambulance assistant job, with the view that you would go on to get your paramedic qualifications, the applicants were short listed, but then told they would not be put forward for the fitness test as they didn't have there advance driving license, this costs around a £1000.
With no guarantee of a job, no applicant went through to the fitness stage, so instead of the NHS paying for the successful applicants to sit there advance driving test, the position goes unfilled. That's why we have a ambulance crisis not because of people don't want the jobs, but because we would rather pay 2 million to give prisoners phones (for votes) than put successful candidates through there advance driving test.
The SFRS have been driving for us in some places already but fir some reason it's not wide spread enough.
Anyway, currently off to a job that's been in 20 minutes and is over 50 miles away
There were 12 fitness tests here on the recent intake.westport wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:33 pmSomeone was saying in the HeraldTichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:26 pmThat is truly terrible, the Scottish Ambulance service is better resourced than its counterpart down here on the south coast of England, in terms of employees per head of population anyway. The South Coast Ambulance Service has several changes of leadership and has been put into special measures due to all sorts of issues, bullying, awful response times poorly maintained equipment etc.
I see the SG is to recruit army personnel to help, this is already in place in some parts of England.
The phones were given to prisoners during lockdown as they couldn't be visited, they were supposed to be unhackable, but it seems it was as easy as changing a sim card in some cases.But they can spend £2m on mobile phones for prisoners to buy drugs.
I don't know what would have been a better way to go about it, but there is strong evidence to support the argument that recidivism is lowest in systems which are seen the most "liberal".
I read something about Barlinnie the other day, they are trying to tackle addiction as a way to cut down on trafficking.
In the Stirling area, 1500 applied for ambulance assistant job, with the view that you would go on to get your paramedic qualifications, the applicants were short listed, but then told they would not be put forward for the fitness test as they didn't have there advance driving license, this costs around a £1000.
With no guarantee of a job, no applicant went through to the fitness stage, so instead of the NHS paying for the successful applicants to sit there advance driving test, the position goes unfilled. That's why we have a ambulance crisis not because of people don't want the jobs, but because we would rather pay 2 million to give prisoners phones (for votes) than put successful candidates through there advance driving test.
It was for technicians though, there's no pathway for the service to put current techs through their para training after next year. If they're telling applicants they'll get their degree from the SAS they're talking shite atm.
ETA: It is Vat C they need not advanced driving. They used to pay for Cat C tests which would be taken off your wages when qualified as a tech
Last edited by Jock42 on Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think that's a difference between Scotland and the South East of England - I don't think we'd have a 100 mile round trip to an A&E department for an ambulance, though I'm open to correction on that.
There are at least 3 ambulance stations closer to this patient than we still are.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:46 pm
I think that's a difference between Scotland and the South East of England - I don't think we'd have a 100 mile round trip to an A&E department for an ambulance, though I'm open to correction on that.
Indeed. Thankfully we've been stood down (a crew must have cleared closer) although it probably hasn't made a dramatic difference to the patient given how far we had travelled.
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clydecloggie
- Posts: 1268
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:31 am
Aye, it's getting silly. But apparently they're 'stepping up in earnest' next year. For folks who called every Unionist promise 'jam tomorrow' in the 2014 referendum, they're getting quite good at offering fruit-based spread after midnight themselves now.
Meanwhile the UK continues on its relentless journey into becoming a failed state.
You can’t help but think they are not going to get a better (worse) situation than this to set out an alternative vision, but instead are just carrying along the same tired pathclydecloggie wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:01 pmAye, it's getting silly. But apparently they're 'stepping up in earnest' next year. For folks who called every Unionist promise 'jam tomorrow' in the 2014 referendum, they're getting quite good at offering fruit-based spread after midnight themselves now.
Meanwhile the UK continues on its relentless journey into becoming a failed state.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
I'll admit that I'm completely out of the loop as I've been too busy for the last three or four months to keep up with news other than a cursory glance at headlines.
However, it does appear to me that looking for major constitutional change, or rather persuading people as to the benefits of it, at this very minute might not be the politically wise choice.
Those who are agin it will attack the timing and all other aspects no matter what.
However, it does appear to me that looking for major constitutional change, or rather persuading people as to the benefits of it, at this very minute might not be the politically wise choice.
Those who are agin it will attack the timing and all other aspects no matter what.
I agree it’s an impossible time in terms of covid and that her speech was at the party conference so tub thumping was inevitable. But if you are going to bring it up again, like she did, then it also seems like the time to bring at least a slightly new approach. No one, not even the really thick ones, think there is going to be a referendum within 2 years.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:29 pm I'll admit that I'm completely out of the loop as I've been too busy for the last three or four months to keep up with news other than a cursory glance at headlines.
However, it does appear to me that looking for major constitutional change, or rather persuading people as to the benefits of it, at this very minute might not be the politically wise choice.
Those who are agin it will attack the timing and all other aspects no matter what.
I’ve had 2 conversations today with pretty strong unionists who have had enough of this government and recognise there is no opposition to tidy up the mess either. There must be another way
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
Just to add to your point about not hearing much about it recently, I think the wind has completely gone out the sails of the whole movement and I don’t see it coming back at any great pace. It seems to me now is the time to step back, attempt to sort the problems that a government should be doing, and start a new conversation.
I’m listening
I’m listening
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
Slick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:36 pmI agree it’s an impossible time in terms of covid and that her speech was at the party conference so tub thumping was inevitable. But if you are going to bring it up again, like she did, then it also seems like the time to bring at least a slightly new approach. No one, not even the really thick ones, think there is going to be a referendum within 2 years.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:29 pm I'll admit that I'm completely out of the loop as I've been too busy for the last three or four months to keep up with news other than a cursory glance at headlines.
However, it does appear to me that looking for major constitutional change, or rather persuading people as to the benefits of it, at this very minute might not be the politically wise choice.
Those who are agin it will attack the timing and all other aspects no matter what.
I’ve had 2 conversations today with pretty strong unionists who have had enough of this government and recognise there is no opposition to tidy up the mess either. There must be another way
I'm not an SNP supporter other than them being a vehicle, but wasn't the "promise" a referendum within the term of the current parliament? Then I'm sure it was supposed to be towards the first half rather than the second.
Events have overtaken them, and I would not be surprised in the slightest if they have to shovel it down the road further, which of course will be pounced on, but I can see it happening due to the changing landscape due to Covid
Slick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:39 pm Just to add to your point about not hearing much about it recently, I think the wind has completely gone out the sails of the whole movement and I don’t see it coming back at any great pace. It seems to me now is the time to step back, attempt to sort the problems that a government should be doing, and start a new conversation.
I’m listening
I'd have to look this up separately but I get news feeds from The National on Facebook who are claiming an increase in the polls re support for the SNP and the Greens in Scotland
edit - a quick Google brings up this from the Scotsman, who have been solidly anti Indy
a sub heading
The campaign for Scottish independence has been given a major boost after a poll showed a significant swing in favour of Yes.
I'll give the link but the advertising is almost as bad as Walesonline, it makes the site unusable
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ ... ll-3478234
Last edited by Tichtheid on Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That’s not what I’ve read, but could be wrong. Kind of the point as well really, it’s just not all consuming like it was for the last few years.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:44 pmSlick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:39 pm Just to add to your point about not hearing much about it recently, I think the wind has completely gone out the sails of the whole movement and I don’t see it coming back at any great pace. It seems to me now is the time to step back, attempt to sort the problems that a government should be doing, and start a new conversation.
I’m listening
I'd have to look this up separately but I get news feeds from The National on Facebook who are claiming an increase in the polls re support for the SNP and the Greens in Scotland
Oh, and, The National!! On Facebook!! FFS
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
Take a look at the edit of my postSlick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:49 pmThat’s not what I’ve read, but could be wrong. Kind of the point as well really, it’s just not all consuming like it was for the last few years.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:44 pmSlick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:39 pm Just to add to your point about not hearing much about it recently, I think the wind has completely gone out the sails of the whole movement and I don’t see it coming back at any great pace. It seems to me now is the time to step back, attempt to sort the problems that a government should be doing, and start a new conversation.
I’m listening
I'd have to look this up separately but I get news feeds from The National on Facebook who are claiming an increase in the polls re support for the SNP and the Greens in Scotland
Oh, and, The National!! On Facebook!! FFS
The National is what it is, it has some bad stuff but also some good stuff, I don't know any source that could be described in any other way
Slick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:49 pmThat’s not what I’ve read, but could be wrong. Kind of the point as well really, it’s just not all consuming like it was for the last few years.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:44 pmSlick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:39 pm Just to add to your point about not hearing much about it recently, I think the wind has completely gone out the sails of the whole movement and I don’t see it coming back at any great pace. It seems to me now is the time to step back, attempt to sort the problems that a government should be doing, and start a new conversation.
I’m listening
I'd have to look this up separately but I get news feeds from The National on Facebook who are claiming an increase in the polls re support for the SNP and the Greens in Scotland
Oh, and, The National!! On Facebook!! FFS
What could possibly have taken the attention away from the indy discussion? :-)
As far as IndyRef 2 is concerned ,actually the Poll was an Ipsos MORI/STV poll.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:59 pm
What could possibly have taken the attention away from the indy discussion? :-)
Now it certainly looks like an outlier , but the poll had 52% Yes / 43 % , that's a 9% lead , and also interestingly only 4% undecided , which is unusually small.
What is all consuming at the moment is a Global pandemic , so it is rather unsurprising that Indy Ref has taken a back seat
Looking at Parliamentary election intentions - The latest PanelBase Poll from the Times shows that if an election was held now the SNP would increase their tally from 48 to 53 ( out of 59 ) The Tories would lose half their existing six seats, Labour would be stuck on one and the Lib Dems would fall from four to two.
Lager & Lime - we don't do cocktails
Just to be clear, I have noticed the pandemic.
Even at its worse though there was still a fair bit of chat from both sides but the last 3 or 4 months virtually zero. Just an observation, nothing more!
Even at its worse though there was still a fair bit of chat from both sides but the last 3 or 4 months virtually zero. Just an observation, nothing more!
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
So when SNP politicians have mentioned a route to independence over the last 18 months, the unionists have shouted ‘you should be concentrating on the pandemic!’.
And when SNP politicians haven’t talked about independence in the last eighteen months, the unionists have shouted ‘they’ve given up on independence, no momentum left!’.
Blind panic starting in unionist politics as Ross is investigated by the standards commissioner and looks more and more like a lost wee boy, Labour desperately try to figure out how to become relevant again without lining up on stage with the Tories, and the Lib Dems desperately run around shouting ‘me too’ to anything that they think might get them a toehold somewhere.
And when SNP politicians haven’t talked about independence in the last eighteen months, the unionists have shouted ‘they’ve given up on independence, no momentum left!’.
Blind panic starting in unionist politics as Ross is investigated by the standards commissioner and looks more and more like a lost wee boy, Labour desperately try to figure out how to become relevant again without lining up on stage with the Tories, and the Lib Dems desperately run around shouting ‘me too’ to anything that they think might get them a toehold somewhere.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Well, yes. And most importantly what looks like becoming a complete implosion by UK government. Which is why I'm suggesting now would be a good time to change tack a bit rather than the same old.Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:26 pm So when SNP politicians have mentioned a route to independence over the last 18 months, the unionists have shouted ‘you should be concentrating on the pandemic!’.
And when SNP politicians haven’t talked about independence in the last eighteen months, the unionists have shouted ‘they’ve given up on independence, no momentum left!’.
Blind panic starting in unionist politics as Ross is investigated by the standards commissioner and looks more and more like a lost wee boy, Labour desperately try to figure out how to become relevant again without lining up on stage with the Tories, and the Lib Dems desperately run around shouting ‘me too’ to anything that they think might get them a toehold somewhere.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
But your definition of changing tack a bit is abandoning their raison d’etre.Slick wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:54 pmWell, yes. And most importantly what looks like becoming a complete implosion by UK government. Which is why I'm suggesting now would be a good time to change tack a bit rather than the same old.Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:26 pm So when SNP politicians have mentioned a route to independence over the last 18 months, the unionists have shouted ‘you should be concentrating on the pandemic!’.
And when SNP politicians haven’t talked about independence in the last eighteen months, the unionists have shouted ‘they’ve given up on independence, no momentum left!’.
Blind panic starting in unionist politics as Ross is investigated by the standards commissioner and looks more and more like a lost wee boy, Labour desperately try to figure out how to become relevant again without lining up on stage with the Tories, and the Lib Dems desperately run around shouting ‘me too’ to anything that they think might get them a toehold somewhere.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Not at all.Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:18 pmBut your definition of changing tack a bit is abandoning their raison d’etre.Slick wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:54 pmWell, yes. And most importantly what looks like becoming a complete implosion by UK government. Which is why I'm suggesting now would be a good time to change tack a bit rather than the same old.Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:26 pm So when SNP politicians have mentioned a route to independence over the last 18 months, the unionists have shouted ‘you should be concentrating on the pandemic!’.
And when SNP politicians haven’t talked about independence in the last eighteen months, the unionists have shouted ‘they’ve given up on independence, no momentum left!’.
Blind panic starting in unionist politics as Ross is investigated by the standards commissioner and looks more and more like a lost wee boy, Labour desperately try to figure out how to become relevant again without lining up on stage with the Tories, and the Lib Dems desperately run around shouting ‘me too’ to anything that they think might get them a toehold somewhere.
I know it's not going to happen but I was thinking more along the lines of saying, of course we still want independence, of course that's our raison d'etre, but now we can all agree that Westminster is fucked give us a chance to show you how we can fix the NHS, schools, drug issues etc. They have no opposition now so maybe it should change to showing people like me that we really can do these things instead of the business as usual of everyone shouting and nothing getting done. It just seems a really unique opportunity.
Edit: sorry, to address your main point a bit better. It's not about abandoning independence, its about not claiming these arbitrary and impossible dates and more about building a consensus that makes it inevitable. That can still be done in a relatively short space of time.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
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clydecloggie
- Posts: 1268
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:31 am
To be fair, some of that is actually happening. Like the SG announcement that Scotland will keep aligning its laws to conform with EU regulations and standards. Perhaps not a massive eye-catcher, but exactly the sort of thing they can point to as evidence of their maturity and long-term vision for Scotland. For instance, they might be able to use that as the sharp end of the wedge that slowly takes education away from essentially copying the English system to aligning more with successful European education systems.Slick wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:28 pmNot at all.
I know it's not going to happen but I was thinking more along the lines of saying, of course we still want independence, of course that's our raison d'etre, but now we can all agree that Westminster is fucked give us a chance to show you how we can fix the NHS, schools, drug issues etc. They have no opposition now so maybe it should change to showing people like me that we really can do these things instead of the business as usual of everyone shouting and nothing getting done. It just seems a really unique opportunity.
Edit: sorry, to address your main point a bit better. It's not about abandoning independence, its about not claiming these arbitrary and impossible dates and more about building a consensus that makes it inevitable. That can still be done in a relatively short space of time.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
I think it was probably as much as she could get away with , whether it's enough only time will tell
Anyway all round to Bute House for Buckfast and a game of Twister
Lager & Lime - we don't do cocktails
This is the logical starting point for what comes next. This will not stop people mixing who want to mix and those who will stick to guidance were those likely to be sensible anyway.
Interesting spat between Sir Geoff Palmer, Sir Tom Devine and Prof Jonathan Hearn.
For those that haven't seen it:
For those that haven't seen it:
A row over Edinburgh’s links to slavery has led to the city’s oldest university being condemned for its “absolutely shameful and fatuous” response to allegations of racism made against two of its most respected academics.
Sir Tom Devine, emeritus professor of history, lambasted his former employer for failing to provide even “a hint of support” to either himself or Jonathan Hearn, a professor of historical sociology, after both were branded racists by Sir Geoff Palmer, the human rights campaigner and chancellor of Heriot-Watt University.
Devine said that Edinburgh University had failed in its duty of care to its staff and had “brazenly committed trahison des clercs [intellectual treason]”.
Palmer is leading two reviews of the city’s connections to slavery but his work was criticised by Hearn for failing to take account of “historical complexity” in the disputed legacy of Henry Dundas, the Georgian politician whose statue towers over St Andrew Square.
Palmer labelled Hearn a racist on Twitter and after Devine responded in The Times by condemning the “appalling slurs” against a colleague, he too was described as racist by Palmer.
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Yesterday, Edinburgh University issued a statement: “We are committed to freedom of expression and academic freedom and stand by our published statement on protecting these freedoms,” it said.
“We will continue to listen to views on our principled approach, including respecting the right of individuals to challenge our community if they think certain behaviour impinges on the environment of mutual respect.” Devine said that he was deeply shocked by the statement.
“What an absolutely shameful and fatuous response from an institution which ought to have a duty of care for its staff,” he added.
“A professor and a professor emeritus have been publicly vilified, abused and described as racists by an individual who is currently chairing an important university inquiry into its historical links to slavery.
“And for what reason? Because they dared to offer alternative opinions based on their academic expertise and knowledge.
“On this day the senior management of Edinburgh brazenly committed trahison des clercs. There was no hint of support or even an inquiry into these disgraceful slurs, nothing other than supine platitudes.”
Devine had earlier called for Palmer’s dismissal, saying that he lacked the “qualities of impartiality, sensitive appreciation of different opinions and the capacity to encourage consensus and complex decisions” required as a review group chairman
Palmer said: “Devine’s biased, racist demand does not bother me. We are used to bias.”
Knighted for his human rights work in 2014, Palmer, 81, is a longstanding anti-racism campaigner. He came to Britain as a child from Jamaica and was the first black person appointed professor in Scotland when he was awarded the chair in grain sciences at Heriot-Watt university.
Under his leadership of the city council review group, a sign has been placed under Dundas’s monument, which states that he was responsible for delaying the passing of legislation to abolish slavery.
Hearn said the review group had also highlighted the 1774 case of Joseph Knight, a former slave whose victory in the Court of Session established the principle that Scots law would not uphold the institution of slavery in Scotland.
The group had failed to mention that Dundas had been Knight’s lawyer, Hearn added.
“History is rarely a resolved business,” he said. “It is full of ambiguities and ongoing debates that need to be acknowledged and engaged. What should be avoided is reducing the complexity of history.”
Palmer said that the Knight case came to court when he was no longer a slave, but a servant of Sir John Wedderburn of Ballendean.
He said: “They are trying to compare Knight’s release from ‘perpetual servitude’ with Wilberforce’s abolition of slavery [in 1833], it's nonsense.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul