The Scottish Politics Thread

Where goats go to escape
inactionman
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Slick wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:17 am Interesting spat between Sir Geoff Palmer, Sir Tom Devine and Prof Jonathan Hearn.

For those that haven't seen it:
A row over Edinburgh’s links to slavery has led to the city’s oldest university being condemned for its “absolutely shameful and fatuous” response to allegations of racism made against two of its most respected academics.

Sir Tom Devine, emeritus professor of history, lambasted his former employer for failing to provide even “a hint of support” to either himself or Jonathan Hearn, a professor of historical sociology, after both were branded racists by Sir Geoff Palmer, the human rights campaigner and chancellor of Heriot-Watt University.

Devine said that Edinburgh University had failed in its duty of care to its staff and had “brazenly committed trahison des clercs [intellectual treason]”.

Palmer is leading two reviews of the city’s connections to slavery but his work was criticised by Hearn for failing to take account of “historical complexity” in the disputed legacy of Henry Dundas, the Georgian politician whose statue towers over St Andrew Square.

Palmer labelled Hearn a racist on Twitter and after Devine responded in The Times by condemning the “appalling slurs” against a colleague, he too was described as racist by Palmer.
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Yesterday, Edinburgh University issued a statement: “We are committed to freedom of expression and academic freedom and stand by our published statement on protecting these freedoms,” it said.

“We will continue to listen to views on our principled approach, including respecting the right of individuals to challenge our community if they think certain behaviour impinges on the environment of mutual respect.” Devine said that he was deeply shocked by the statement.

“What an absolutely shameful and fatuous response from an institution which ought to have a duty of care for its staff,” he added.

“A professor and a professor emeritus have been publicly vilified, abused and described as racists by an individual who is currently chairing an important university inquiry into its historical links to slavery.

“And for what reason? Because they dared to offer alternative opinions based on their academic expertise and knowledge.

“On this day the senior management of Edinburgh brazenly committed trahison des clercs. There was no hint of support or even an inquiry into these disgraceful slurs, nothing other than supine platitudes.”

Devine had earlier called for Palmer’s dismissal, saying that he lacked the “qualities of impartiality, sensitive appreciation of different opinions and the capacity to encourage consensus and complex decisions” required as a review group chairman

Palmer said: “Devine’s biased, racist demand does not bother me. We are used to bias.”

Knighted for his human rights work in 2014, Palmer, 81, is a longstanding anti-racism campaigner. He came to Britain as a child from Jamaica and was the first black person appointed professor in Scotland when he was awarded the chair in grain sciences at Heriot-Watt university.

Under his leadership of the city council review group, a sign has been placed under Dundas’s monument, which states that he was responsible for delaying the passing of legislation to abolish slavery.

Hearn said the review group had also highlighted the 1774 case of Joseph Knight, a former slave whose victory in the Court of Session established the principle that Scots law would not uphold the institution of slavery in Scotland.

The group had failed to mention that Dundas had been Knight’s lawyer, Hearn added.

“History is rarely a resolved business,” he said. “It is full of ambiguities and ongoing debates that need to be acknowledged and engaged. What should be avoided is reducing the complexity of history.”

Palmer said that the Knight case came to court when he was no longer a slave, but a servant of Sir John Wedderburn of Ballendean.

He said: “They are trying to compare Knight’s release from ‘perpetual servitude’ with Wilberforce’s abolition of slavery [in 1833], it's nonsense.
I'd think Palmer might do himself a favour by not banding accusations of racism about. It seems unreasonable, given what I've read, and on a purely practical level it immediately drowns out any reasonable discourse - as he's the head of the enquiry (inquiry?) if nothing else it should be in his interests.

The mayor of Bristol refused to be drawn into arguments like this, notably around the statue of Colston which was dumped into the Avon, as he just didn't want to waste political capital and goodwill on relatively symbolic arguments when he could be doing something practical. Better to avoid needless and highly charged confrontations, surely?
Biffer
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I don't know who's been called exactly what and why, but Tom Devine calling someone else a person who lacks the “qualities of impartiality, sensitive appreciation of different opinions and the capacity to encourage consensus and complex decisions” is a bit rich.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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Paddington Bear
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Likewise don't know the specifics but Devine is as good a historian as there is and I've always found his work to be very considered and excellently researched.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
Biffer
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Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:32 am Likewise don't know the specifics but Devine is as good a historian as there is and I've always found his work to be very considered and excellently researched.
His history yes, but when he's strayed into politics he's not exactly been a voice of unity.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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Paddington Bear
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Biffer wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:34 am
Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:32 am Likewise don't know the specifics but Devine is as good a historian as there is and I've always found his work to be very considered and excellently researched.
His history yes, but when he's strayed into politics he's not exactly been a voice of unity.
He's as entitled to his politics as anyone else, we all have them.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
inactionman
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Biffer wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:31 am I don't know who's been called exactly what and why, but Tom Devine calling someone else a person who lacks the “qualities of impartiality, sensitive appreciation of different opinions and the capacity to encourage consensus and complex decisions” is a bit rich.
I'm not that familiar with him, but I'd point out he's not the one leading an inquiry where these sorts of skills are required.

On the matter of mudslinging, I sort of expect academics to be bolshie, dogmatic and single-minded, certainly that's been my experience of them (was a researcher for a few years post-doc), but I'm not quite clear on how we step off into 'racist' from there. I'd hope academics would be clear on their definitions.
Slick
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inactionman wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:45 am
Biffer wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:31 am I don't know who's been called exactly what and why, but Tom Devine calling someone else a person who lacks the “qualities of impartiality, sensitive appreciation of different opinions and the capacity to encourage consensus and complex decisions” is a bit rich.
I'm not that familiar with him, but I'd point out he's not the one leading an inquiry where these sorts of skills are required.

On the matter of mudslinging, I sort of expect academics to be bolshie, dogmatic and single-minded, certainly that's been my experience of them (was a researcher for a few years post-doc), but I'm not quite clear on how we step off into 'racist' from there. I'd hope academics would be clear on their definitions.
This is an absolutely extraordinary defence from another professor at the uni
Devine and others, who take offence at being labelled racists because they are attempting to revise history despite the fact, should think more carefully about the burden truth places on scholars.

“Surely being called racist for supporting historical figures who supported slavery and enacted violence against black freedom fighters and abolitionists is less offensive than being the descendants of the people brutalised by Dundas’s actions and then denied recognition or apology for his violence
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Slick
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Anyone know what the dropping of hospitality restrictions means? Will it still be only seated at tables etc (ie no packed bars and standing?), thinking ahead to 6N of course.
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mos_eisely_
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Slick wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:51 pm Anyone know what the dropping of hospitality restrictions means? Will it still be only seated at tables etc (ie no packed bars and standing?), thinking ahead to 6N of course.
My understanding is back to normal. So you can stand, get served at the bar and be with more than 3 households
Biffer
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mos_eisely_ wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:01 pm
Slick wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:51 pm Anyone know what the dropping of hospitality restrictions means? Will it still be only seated at tables etc (ie no packed bars and standing?), thinking ahead to 6N of course.
My understanding is back to normal. So you can stand, get served at the bar and be with more than 3 households
Yeah, back to normal so far as I can see. The Murrayfield and Hampton, among others, will be mightily relieved.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Slick
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Biffer wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:49 pm
mos_eisely_ wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:01 pm
Slick wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:51 pm Anyone know what the dropping of hospitality restrictions means? Will it still be only seated at tables etc (ie no packed bars and standing?), thinking ahead to 6N of course.
My understanding is back to normal. So you can stand, get served at the bar and be with more than 3 households
Yeah, back to normal so far as I can see. The Murrayfield and Hampton, among others, will be mightily relieved.
It’s going to feel very strange
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tc27
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Fantastic news.
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Tichtheid
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Facemasks will still be needed on public transport and whilst walking through pubs and restaurants as far as I can ascertain
Slick
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Tichtheid wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:32 pm Facemasks will still be needed on public transport and whilst walking through pubs and restaurants as far as I can ascertain
That’s the idea I guess, but pretty daft to think it will have any impact in a packed pub
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Biffer
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Lucky escape we had with the referendum, seeing as oil prices are now back up to 2014 levels.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Slick
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Biffer wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:20 pm Lucky escape we had with the referendum, seeing as oil prices are now back up to 2014 levels.
Shame oil doesn't exist any longer
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tc27
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Biffer wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:20 pm Lucky escape we had with the referendum, seeing as oil prices are now back up to 2014 levels.
Lets say there a bumper year and tax revenue from Scotland geographical share of the UK's and gas revenue triples from 550 million to 1.75 billion - the context is the notional deficit in Scotland is 8-9 billion PA in a non covid year. Not sure it changes anything. Also doubtful the 2014 plan of trying to keep the pound without being able to QE or borrow in a currency you control would have allowed for the massive fiscal stimulus needed to get through 2020 (furlough ETC).

In fairness the SNP have moved on from oil to claiming they wont have to pay pensions. :crazy:
Dogbert
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Slick wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:22 pm
Biffer wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:20 pm Lucky escape we had with the referendum, seeing as oil prices are now back up to 2014 levels.
Shame oil doesn't exist any longer
UK Oil production in 2020 was 20% higher than in 2014

Perfectly true that the UK Basin is a very mature basin and that production levels will continue to fall , but that's why we built up a substantial Sovereign Oil fund , when we were fortunate to win the lottery of having received 470 Billion dollars in Revenue from these deposits of Fossil Fuels
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Slick
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Dogbert wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:21 pm
Slick wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:22 pm
Biffer wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:20 pm Lucky escape we had with the referendum, seeing as oil prices are now back up to 2014 levels.
Shame oil doesn't exist any longer
UK Oil production in 2020 was 20% higher than in 2014

Perfectly true that the UK Basin is a very mature basin and that production levels will continue to fall , but that's why we built up a substantial Sovereign Oil fund , when we were fortunate to win the lottery of having received 470 Billion dollars in Revenue from these deposits of Fossil Fuels
Missed my point. Scottish government doesn’t want anything to do with it any more so oil prices are irrelevant to any debate
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Dogbert
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Slick wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:35 pm
Dogbert wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:21 pm
Slick wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:22 pm

Shame oil doesn't exist any longer
UK Oil production in 2020 was 20% higher than in 2014

Perfectly true that the UK Basin is a very mature basin and that production levels will continue to fall , but that's why we built up a substantial Sovereign Oil fund , when we were fortunate to win the lottery of having received 470 Billion dollars in Revenue from these deposits of Fossil Fuels
Missed my point. Scottish government doesn’t want anything to do with it any more so oil prices are irrelevant to any debate
And in the real World Oil & Gas exists so Oil Prices and are very much relevant - Its a bit of a mute point since Energy is a devolved issue anyway,

However its good to know that we have that Sovereign Wealth fund to transition across the economy
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Slick
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Dogbert wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:47 pm
Slick wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:35 pm
Dogbert wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:21 pm

UK Oil production in 2020 was 20% higher than in 2014

Perfectly true that the UK Basin is a very mature basin and that production levels will continue to fall , but that's why we built up a substantial Sovereign Oil fund , when we were fortunate to win the lottery of having received 470 Billion dollars in Revenue from these deposits of Fossil Fuels
Missed my point. Scottish government doesn’t want anything to do with it any more so oil prices are irrelevant to any debate
And in the real World Oil & Gas exists so Oil Prices and are very much relevant - Its a bit of a mute point since Energy is a devolved issue anyway,

However its good to know that we have that Sovereign Wealth fund to transition across the economy
Wut? Mental
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Dogbert
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Care to elaborate on such a well erudite comment ?
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Slick
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Dogbert wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:59 pm Care to elaborate on such a well erudite comment ?
Care to try again in English?
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tc27
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Slick you need to be more open minded to political and economic arguments based on time travelling to a cherry picked point in the past.
Dogbert
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Wut Mental ??

This is an interesting place to have reasonable debate on many issues, I'm strugglng to understand your "Wut Mental" comment , unless all you prefer is an echo chamber
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Slick
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Listen mate, I’m more than happy to have a chat with anyone on here in good faith. But we are 2 weeks into a 6 nations and I don’t thing you have made one post on rugby. I’m not going to get into a swivel eyed argument about politics if that’s the only reason you come here. Just go somewhere else and find it.
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Dogbert
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Slick wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:16 pm Listen mate, I’m more than happy to have a chat with anyone on here in good faith. But we are 2 weeks into a 6 nations and I don’t thing you have made one post on rugby. I’m not going to get into a swivel eyed argument about politics if that’s the only reason you come here. Just go somewhere else and find it.
But this is the Scottish Politics thread ...... , if you can't discuss Scottish politics in a reasoned manner on this thread

More than happy to discuss the flaws of whether Skinner should really ever play at 6 , or that Darcy Graham has really been the best player in the past two games , or than those who think Hastings should even been in the squad haven'r seen much of Gloucester this year , but that can be kept for other threads

Still a free country , I think I will stay on the Forum
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Tichtheid
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Stay on the forum, Dogbert
Shell and BP, which together produce more than 1.7bn tonnes of greenhouse gases a year, have not paid any corporation tax on oil and gas production in the North Sea for the last three years, company filings reveal.

The oil giants, which have an annual global footprint of greenhouse gases more than five times bigger than Britain’s, are benefiting from billions of pounds of tax breaks and reliefs for oil and gas production.

Shell and BP paid no corporation tax or production levies on North Sea oil operations between 2018 and 2020, and claimed tax reliefs of nearly £400m, according to annual “payments to governments” reports analysed by the Observer.

Over the same three-year period, they paid shareholders more than £44bn in dividends.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... hree-years
Slick
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Of course stay on the forum.
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tc27
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Any thoughts on the GR reform bill? Scotland will be one of the easiest places to legally change gender:

inactionman
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Tichtheid wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:38 am Stay on the forum, Dogbert
Shell and BP, which together produce more than 1.7bn tonnes of greenhouse gases a year, have not paid any corporation tax on oil and gas production in the North Sea for the last three years, company filings reveal.

The oil giants, which have an annual global footprint of greenhouse gases more than five times bigger than Britain’s, are benefiting from billions of pounds of tax breaks and reliefs for oil and gas production.

Shell and BP paid no corporation tax or production levies on North Sea oil operations between 2018 and 2020, and claimed tax reliefs of nearly £400m, according to annual “payments to governments” reports analysed by the Observer.

Over the same three-year period, they paid shareholders more than £44bn in dividends.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... hree-years
I look at how Norway invested their fossil fuel revenues into a sovereign wealth fund, now valued around 1.5 trillion dollars, and weep.

I recognise that the UK revenue went in part into our pension funds as shareholders, but still.
inactionman
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tc27 wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:04 am Any thoughts on the GR reform bill? Scotland will be one of the easiest places to legally change gender:

The legislation seems clear, but I worry that the challenges people will face will be more social.

Wondering if there are any related acts/bills which would toughen protections for transgender (is this correct phraseology?), I'll admit I've lost track a bit.

Also, and this is purely anecdotal so I mention it more as a point of discussion than any hard position, one of my friend's wives is a secondary school teacher and made an interesting point - some of the kids she works with are quite troubled in general, and that ideas around gender dysmorphia can sometimes take a life of their own, and be used by the poor kids as a 'liferaft' to explain various challenges that they face. I'm not explaining it well, but she was worried that many who opt to be identified as a different gender in hopes of being more comfortable in their own skin are just pushing the underlying issues further down the road, and this will now be further layered with a degree of gender confusion. This is amplified by much of society's poor reaction to this, further ostracising kids who my already have challenges in social situations. I'm not sure where I stand, I just mention this as I note the legislation reduces the minimum age to 16.
Biffer
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tc27 wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:04 am Any thoughts on the GR reform bill? Scotland will be one of the easiest places to legally change gender:

Not in the slightest bit worried about it.

I don't generally get engaged in the trans and gender arguments, as the last thing any rights movement needs is the opinion of another straight white middle aged man. I only ever have two observations (and I generally don't give them unless pushed, but I thought I'd grace you guys with them early)

1. A lot of the 'anti' arguments sound very similar to the arguments against giving gay men rights in the 70s and 80s
2. This is the first rights movement that's claimed a substantial part of it's 'space' from another rights movement that has previously had to fight for it. Which is one of the reasons it's so bitter.
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tc27
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I like to think I'm quite liberal about people living however they want in line with the 'harm principle'.

However a few things bother me.

1. The Orwellian behavior around language - ie removing references to female/women in information about pregnancy.
2. There's reasons we continue to separate male and female spaces which I think are not just based on tradition.
3. The behavior of some of the activists towards women who dissent - IE JK Rowling.
4. Young people being told they have gender dysmorphia - might be true in some cases but the consequences of a misdiagnoses (because of the surgery and drugs that are used to treat) are dramatic.


However...its also a valid point that some of the arguments that are used against trans rights are the same deployed against homosexuals' a few decades ago.
Slick
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A lot of the 'anti' arguments sound very similar to the arguments against giving gay men rights in the 70s and 80s
yes, this is one of two things that really bothers me.

The other is that the #metoo movement in particular has really brought it home to me personally how much shit women have to put up with on a daily basis and I've become quite passionate in my defence of that. I think that anything that is going to make woman feel uncomfortable in their "own space" has to considered as a highest priority. I'm very much of the live and let live school but we are talking about 50% of the population and a very, very small group of individuals that can upset the balance, so I don't think suddenly legislating like this is fair or going to work.

I do think that it is taking up a ridiculous amount of time and effort and a lot of the supporters of it have managed to make it a huge issue when it didn't need to be. There has to be a middle ground on this but with most things at the moment it has become polarised
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robmatic
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tc27 wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:26 am
However...its also a valid point that some of the arguments that are used against trans rights are the same deployed against homosexuals' a few decades ago.
Also some of the people who against trans rights are literally the worst people on the right-hand side of the political spectrum.

However, I think that many aspects of the trans position are either regressive and sexist or don't bear up to much critical examination. Even in the proposed legislation, applicants have to have 'lived in the acquired gender for 3 months'. What does that even mean without the tacit acceptance of a bunch of sexist stereotypes?
Slick
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The funniest thing about this conversation is that JMK hasn’t found it buried here yet
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Biffer
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tc27 wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:26 am I like to think I'm quite liberal about people living however they want in line with the 'harm principle'.

However a few things bother me.

1. The Orwellian behavior around language - ie removing references to female/women in information about pregnancy.
2. There's reasons we continue to separate male and female spaces which I think are not just based on tradition.
3. The behavior of some of the activists towards women who dissent - IE JK Rowling.
4. Young people being told they have gender dysmorphia - might be true in some cases but the consequences of a misdiagnoses (because of the surgery and drugs that are used to treat) are dramatic.


However...its also a valid point that some of the arguments that are used against trans rights are the same deployed against homosexuals' a few decades ago.
I would say those are concerns that need to be addressed, but that's the point, they need to be addressed, not screamed as a reason to never change, which is what some of the women's rights activists are doing. The orwellian behaviour about language on one side is mirrored by orwellian behaviour about gender on the other, shouting that no trans person could ever be addressed by a term which wasn't applied to them at birth. Trans people are far more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators of it, and the behaviour of acitvists towards people like Jo Rowling is again mirrored by the activities of some on the anti side of the argument. I do worry about gender dysmoprhia as it seems to be such a blanket term covering a huge array of mental and physical disorders or conditions.
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Blackmac
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I'm not going to discus the lads character but what does everyone see as the ultimate aim of those involved in the Goodwillie pile on. The Clyde ladies sudden reaction and the behaviour of the local council after 5 years is just pathetic. Lynch mob mentality at its worst. I wonder if any of them will accept any responsibility if the lad throws himself under a train.
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Tichtheid
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Blackmac wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:40 am I'm not going to discus the lads character but what does everyone see as the ultimate aim of those involved in the Goodwillie pile on. The Clyde ladies sudden reaction and the behaviour of the local council after 5 years is just pathetic. Lynch mob mentality at its worst. I wonder if any of them will accept any responsibility if the lad throws himself under a train.

I think the lad's character is important and can't be ignored if we are asking whether or not the actions of the council, the women's side and the club are justified, if it wasn't for his actions he wouldn't in the situation he is now.
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