NPR

Looks like the challengers will be in use fairly quickly

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/ukraini ... ger-tanks/

Random1 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:05 pm Looks like the challengers will be in use fairly quickly

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/ukraini ... ger-tanks/

The Poles reckon they can get training on the Leo 2s done in 5 weeks. People tend to forget it's not rookie recruits getting trained on the Western MBTs, it's experienced combat veterans. Same with IFVs.

Some one asked about Warstache in the other place and whether he was still around/alive.

Sadly it looks like its question of when Bakhmut falls now.

Loosing a city in Donbass doesnt necessarily means Ukraine is loosing the war (particularly if they have made the Russians pay a high price for it) but at the moment Russia has the momentum.

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:22 am Sadly it looks like its question of when Bakhmut falls now.

Loosing a city in Donbass doesnt necessarily means Ukraine is loosing the war (particularly if they have made the Russians pay a high price for it) but at the moment Russia has the momentum.

Yes, although not over yet I guess it was underestimated just how insanely single-minded RU would be in wasting tens of thousands in human life and near non-stop use of stocks of munitions for small advances in 4 months. It's not a disaster but clearly a setback if it falls and there may be only one supply route viable at the moment for UA defences in the city.

UA appear to be stuck in holding operations until supplies of new weaponry from the West are sufficient to consider true and large counter-offensives.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:15 am

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:22 am Sadly it looks like its question of when Bakhmut falls now.

Loosing a city in Donbass doesnt necessarily means Ukraine is loosing the war (particularly if they have made the Russians pay a high price for it) but at the moment Russia has the momentum.

Yes, although not over yet I guess it was underestimated just how insanely single-minded RU would be in wasting tens of thousands in human life and near non-stop use of stocks of munitions for small advances in 4 months. It's not a disaster but clearly a setback if it falls and there may be only one supply route viable at the moment for UA defences in the city.

UA appear to be stuck in holding operations until supplies of new weaponry from the West are sufficient to consider true and large counter-offensives.

From what I can gather Russian offensive doctrine is to send forward successive waves of infantry - the first waves are very much just to allow spotters to get a fix on UKA positions for artillery. They keep rinsing a repeating as each new UKA defensive position is 'found' this way. Its a brutal tactic but plays to the remaining strength of the Russian forces which is lots of expendable mobileniks/wagnerites and long range artillery.

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:46 am

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:15 am

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:22 am Sadly it looks like its question of when Bakhmut falls now.

Loosing a city in Donbass doesnt necessarily means Ukraine is loosing the war (particularly if they have made the Russians pay a high price for it) but at the moment Russia has the momentum.

Yes, although not over yet I guess it was underestimated just how insanely single-minded RU would be in wasting tens of thousands in human life and near non-stop use of stocks of munitions for small advances in 4 months. It's not a disaster but clearly a setback if it falls and there may be only one supply route viable at the moment for UA defences in the city.

UA appear to be stuck in holding operations until supplies of new weaponry from the West are sufficient to consider true and large counter-offensives.

From what I can gather Russian offensive doctrine is to send forward successive waves of infantry - the first waves are very much just to allow spotters to get a fix on UKA positions for artillery. They keep rinsing a repeating as each new UKA defensive position is 'found' this way. Its a brutal tactic but plays to the remaining strength of the Russian forces which is lots of expendable mobileniks/wagnerites and long range artillery.

For now, sounds like Wagner have more or less run out of prisoners to send to their doom, and they are having to use scarcely trained mobiks and regular LNR/DPR forces. It's claimed that there are c. 300 000 mobiks that have have more training waiting in the wings to join the push for the remaining unoccupied areas of Luhans'k and Donerst'k. No one seems to quite know where these 300 000 are currently though

Another reason for Western nations to never do any kind of business with Gazprom, and this despite a law in Russia prohibiting PMC's...

Eurofighter looks pretty good in these colours. UK and others retiring tranche 1 planes with over 50% of life still in the airframes. As tranche 1 is only air to air it is purely defensive and more of a challenge than the usual targets like schools, hospitals, power stations and residential blocks that the Russian airforce targets.

petej wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:56 pm Focv0LqXwAQhcSB.jpeg
Eurofighter looks pretty good in these colours. UK and others retiring tranche 1 planes with over 50% of life still in the airframes. As tranche 1 is only air to air it is purely defensive and more of a challenge than the usual targets like schools, hospitals, power stations and residential blocks that the Russian airforce targets.

Tranche one are useless in air to ground though and that is the same issue as the recently retired 2000C not multirole enough to do what the Ukranian air force needs.

Some one was suggesting getting the 2000-9 from the emirates (while delivering their Rafales) these are multirole and very recent.

the tornado would be a good fit too.

and a few scalps ....

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:45 pm

petej wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:56 pm Focv0LqXwAQhcSB.jpeg
Eurofighter looks pretty good in these colours. UK and others retiring tranche 1 planes with over 50% of life still in the airframes. As tranche 1 is only air to air it is purely defensive and more of a challenge than the usual targets like schools, hospitals, power stations and residential blocks that the Russian airforce targets.

Tranche one are useless in air to ground though and that is the same issue as the recently retired 2000C not multirole enough to do what the Ukranian air force needs.

Some one was suggesting getting the 2000-9 from the emirates (while delivering their Rafales) these are multirole and very recent.

the tornado would be a good fit too.

and a few scalps ....

Disagree on the tornado. Out of service, manufacture and more vulnerable to russian aircraft. Denying russian air force access to Ukrainian air space is important for the Ukrainians in terms of protecting future attacks by their ground forces, the civilian population and their pilots lives.

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:45 pm

petej wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:56 pm Focv0LqXwAQhcSB.jpeg
Eurofighter looks pretty good in these colours. UK and others retiring tranche 1 planes with over 50% of life still in the airframes. As tranche 1 is only air to air it is purely defensive and more of a challenge than the usual targets like schools, hospitals, power stations and residential blocks that the Russian airforce targets.

Tranche one are useless in air to ground though and that is the same issue as the recently retired 2000C not multirole enough to do what the Ukranian air force needs.

Some one was suggesting getting the 2000-9 from the emirates (while delivering their Rafales) these are multirole and very recent.

the tornado would be a good fit too.

and a few scalps ....

A10 for the win.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:11 pm

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:45 pm

petej wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:56 pm Focv0LqXwAQhcSB.jpeg
Eurofighter looks pretty good in these colours. UK and others retiring tranche 1 planes with over 50% of life still in the airframes. As tranche 1 is only air to air it is purely defensive and more of a challenge than the usual targets like schools, hospitals, power stations and residential blocks that the Russian airforce targets.

Tranche one are useless in air to ground though and that is the same issue as the recently retired 2000C not multirole enough to do what the Ukranian air force needs.

Some one was suggesting getting the 2000-9 from the emirates (while delivering their Rafales) these are multirole and very recent.

the tornado would be a good fit too.

and a few scalps ....

A10 for the win.

Only if you want to kill more Ukrainians than Russians.

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:45 pm

petej wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:56 pm Focv0LqXwAQhcSB.jpeg
Eurofighter looks pretty good in these colours. UK and others retiring tranche 1 planes with over 50% of life still in the airframes. As tranche 1 is only air to air it is purely defensive and more of a challenge than the usual targets like schools, hospitals, power stations and residential blocks that the Russian airforce targets.

Tranche one are useless in air to ground though and that is the same issue as the recently retired 2000C not multirole enough to do what the Ukranian air force needs.

Some one was suggesting getting the 2000-9 from the emirates (while delivering their Rafales) these are multirole and very recent.

the tornado would be a good fit too.

and a few scalps ....

Saying a Tranche 1 is useless at ground attack is like saying a car is useless at being a boat. It's not designed for ground attack. It would however blown any Russian plane out of the sky at little risk to itself.

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:54 pm

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:45 pm

petej wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:56 pm Focv0LqXwAQhcSB.jpeg
Eurofighter looks pretty good in these colours. UK and others retiring tranche 1 planes with over 50% of life still in the airframes. As tranche 1 is only air to air it is purely defensive and more of a challenge than the usual targets like schools, hospitals, power stations and residential blocks that the Russian airforce targets.

Tranche one are useless in air to ground though and that is the same issue as the recently retired 2000C not multirole enough to do what the Ukranian air force needs.

Some one was suggesting getting the 2000-9 from the emirates (while delivering their Rafales) these are multirole and very recent.

the tornado would be a good fit too.

and a few scalps ....

Saying a Tranche 1 is useless at ground attack is like saying a car is useless at being a boat. It's not designed for ground attack. It would however blown any Russian plane out of the sky at little risk to itself.

Trouble is they can't fly high AA is just too strong and concentrated to be used for it's intended role.

Can someone tell me why so many right wingers have it in for Zelensky? There appears to be a lot of pro Russian sentiment in some parts of Twitter. It seems to have merged in to the culture war.

Irrespective of your general political views how the actual f could you be against Ukraine??

Ymx wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:03 pm Can someone tell me why so many right wingers have it in for Zelensky? There appears to be a lot of pro Russian sentiment in some parts of Twitter. It seems to have merged in to the culture war.

Irrespective of your general political views how the actual f could you be against Ukraine??

Putin is bankrolling most them, and has been for a good while.

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:29 pm

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:54 pm

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:45 pm

Tranche one are useless in air to ground though and that is the same issue as the recently retired 2000C not multirole enough to do what the Ukranian air force needs.

Some one was suggesting getting the 2000-9 from the emirates (while delivering their Rafales) these are multirole and very recent.

the tornado would be a good fit too.

and a few scalps ....

Saying a Tranche 1 is useless at ground attack is like saying a car is useless at being a boat. It's not designed for ground attack. It would however blown any Russian plane out of the sky at little risk to itself.

Trouble is they can't fly high AA is just too strong and concentrated to be used for it's intended role.

Typhoon can’t fly high?

Ymx wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:03 pm Can someone tell me why so many right wingers have it in for Zelensky? There appears to be a lot of pro Russian sentiment in some parts of Twitter. It seems to have merged in to the culture war.

Irrespective of your general political views how the actual f could you be against Ukraine??

Because Russia stronk

Unlike gay homo west

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:29 pm

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:54 pm

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:45 pm

Tranche one are useless in air to ground though and that is the same issue as the recently retired 2000C not multirole enough to do what the Ukranian air force needs.

Some one was suggesting getting the 2000-9 from the emirates (while delivering their Rafales) these are multirole and very recent.

the tornado would be a good fit too.

and a few scalps ....

Saying a Tranche 1 is useless at ground attack is like saying a car is useless at being a boat. It's not designed for ground attack. It would however blown any Russian plane out of the sky at little risk to itself.

Trouble is they can't fly high AA is just too strong and concentrated to be used for it's intended role.

AA isn't a problem if they carry Meteors, AMRAAMs, and HARMs.

Ymx wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:03 pm Can someone tell me why so many right wingers have it in for Zelensky? There appears to be a lot of pro Russian sentiment in some parts of Twitter. It seems to have merged in to the culture war.

Irrespective of your general political views how the actual f could you be against Ukraine??

In the USA there's a vocal minority who will oppose anything Biden does regardless of the rights and wrongs.

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:34 pm

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:29 pm

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:54 pm

Saying a Tranche 1 is useless at ground attack is like saying a car is useless at being a boat. It's not designed for ground attack. It would however blown any Russian plane out of the sky at little risk to itself.

Trouble is they can't fly high AA is just too strong and concentrated to be used for it's intended role.

AA isn't a problem if they carry Meteors, AMRAAMs, and HARMs.

HARM is useful the rest is not so much. There is too many S300 S400 on the ground to go high. the russians have given up despite the number of aircrafts they have.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001f0j7

On RTE now. Tough watch.

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:44 pm

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:34 pm

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:29 pm
Trouble is they can't fly high AA is just too strong and concentrated to be used for it's intended role.

AA isn't a problem if they carry Meteors, AMRAAMs, and HARMs.

HARM is useful the rest is not so much. There is too many S300 S400 on the ground to go high. the russians have given up despite the number of aircrafts they have.

They don't have to go high. All that is necessary is to deny airspace. Notwithstanding the AWACs telemetry they would get from off the Romanian coast. And a Meteor or AMRAAM are BVR F&F; they will destroy any Russian plane without them even knowing there was a Ukrainian in the air.

Most S-300/400 batteries don't even have there radar on most of the time due to the HARM threat, notwithstanding the majority of them are now being used in a surface to surface capacity given the Russian ballistic missile stocks have dropped so low.

135,000 now....

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:20 pm

laurent wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:44 pm

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:34 pm

AA isn't a problem if they carry Meteors, AMRAAMs, and HARMs.

HARM is useful the rest is not so much. There is too many S300 S400 on the ground to go high. the russians have given up despite the number of aircrafts they have.

They don't have to go high. All that is necessary is to deny airspace. Notwithstanding the AWACs telemetry they would get from off the Romanian coast. And a Meteor or AMRAAM are BVR F&F; they will destroy any Russian plane without them even knowing there was a Ukrainian in the air.

Most S-300/400 batteries don't even have there radar on most of the time due to the HARM threat, notwithstanding the majority of them are now being used in a surface to surface capacity given the Russian ballistic missile stocks have dropped so low.

Meteor is unlikely on tranche 1 You needs the F3R for the Rafale (but then this was a better planned aircraft and there is no F1 as they were all upgraded).
AIM120 needs altitude to reach a long range .

Russians are using A50 to monitor the sky though so they will know you are up.

Air war is not that simple , if it was the Ukrainian would have lost a long time ago.

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:27 pm

Rheinmetal is Bulshitting (if this is actually true) there is no ammo production for the gun (they have been trying to Screw Nexter/KMW from the German/French tank program).

laurent wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:43 pm

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:27 pm

Rheinmetal is Bulshitting (if this is actually true) there is no ammo production for the gun (they have been trying to Screw Nexter/KMW from the German/French tank program).

He says himself it's a 15-18 month timeframe to even get the first unit in the field, the more important thing is mentioning a production facility in Ukraine. This is long game stuff; and has both military and econo-political ramifications. The German defence industry is a hobbled giant; it's size and capacity, if given freedom, dwarfs anyone else in Europe. It could produce 600 MBTs and IFVs a year if allowed, and that from a standing start. This type of agreement with Ukraine through Ukroboronprom would tie German industry, and by extension Germany, deeply to Ukraine and away from Russia, as it wouldn't simply be production but also logistics, maintenance, and repair. After the war the entire Ukraine Armed Forces will be switching entirely to Western or joint-development heavy weaponry, with a few exceptions, e.g. BTR-4, nailing the Germans down as the key component in that serves a multitude of purposes, and that was calculation was clear as early as last Summer when the order for 100 PzH 2000 was placed with KMW.

The Russians have been taking an absolute pasting in the south around Pavlivka and Vuhledar, 100+ armour losses in less than a week.

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:02 pm

laurent wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:43 pm

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:27 pm

Rheinmetal is Bulshitting (if this is actually true) there is no ammo production for the gun (they have been trying to Screw Nexter/KMW from the German/French tank program).

He says himself it's a 15-18 month timeframe to even get the first unit in the field, the more important thing is mentioning a production facility in Ukraine. This is long game stuff; and has both military and econo-political ramifications. The German defence industry is a hobbled giant; it's size and capacity, if given freedom, dwarfs anyone else in Europe. It could produce 600 MBTs and IFVs a year if allowed, and that from a standing start. This type of agreement with Ukraine through Ukroboronprom would tie German industry, and by extension Germany, deeply to Ukraine and away from Russia, as it wouldn't simply be production but also logistics, maintenance, and repair. After the war the entire Ukraine Armed Forces will be switching entirely to Western or joint-development heavy weaponry, with a few exceptions, e.g. BTR-4, nailing the Germans down as the key component in that serves a multitude of purposes, and that was calculation was clear as early as last Summer when the order for 100 PzH 2000 was placed with KMW.

After the war?
Quaint thought. Will it ever really happen? Can't imagine the Russians ever stopping the harassment.

Would probably need a breakup of the Russian federation before they take their beady eyes off Ukraine.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:10 pm

Hellraiser wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:02 pm

laurent wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:43 pm

Rheinmetal is Bulshitting (if this is actually true) there is no ammo production for the gun (they have been trying to Screw Nexter/KMW from the German/French tank program).

He says himself it's a 15-18 month timeframe to even get the first unit in the field, the more important thing is mentioning a production facility in Ukraine. This is long game stuff; and has both military and econo-political ramifications. The German defence industry is a hobbled giant; it's size and capacity, if given freedom, dwarfs anyone else in Europe. It could produce 600 MBTs and IFVs a year if allowed, and that from a standing start. This type of agreement with Ukraine through Ukroboronprom would tie German industry, and by extension Germany, deeply to Ukraine and away from Russia, as it wouldn't simply be production but also logistics, maintenance, and repair. After the war the entire Ukraine Armed Forces will be switching entirely to Western or joint-development heavy weaponry, with a few exceptions, e.g. BTR-4, nailing the Germans down as the key component in that serves a multitude of purposes, and that was calculation was clear as early as last Summer when the order for 100 PzH 2000 was placed with KMW.

After the war?
Quaint thought. Will it ever really happen? Can't imagine the Russians ever stopping the harassment.

Would probably need a breakup of the Russian federation before they take their beady eyes off Ukraine.

After major operations to be pedantic. My point is that Ukraine is looking to bind Germany and its defence industry to it militarily, economically, and politically, for the next 50+ years.