NPR

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:37 pm Looking at the positives, we are spared the anguish next weekend

So true

Openside wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:19 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:37 pm Looking at the positives, we are spared the anguish next weekend

So true

knowing Scotland, we’ll win in Paris then crumble against Ireland. Christ it’s frustrating.

Good luck against France

Tattie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:29 pm

Openside wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:19 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:37 pm Looking at the positives, we are spared the anguish next weekend

So true

knowing Scotland, we’ll win in Paris then crumble against Ireland. Christ it’s frustrating.

Nah other way round. Ireland is the only match where I'm working

Openside wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:18 pm

charltom wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:34 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:19 pm

A rogue opinion but I think Blade Thomson going off lost us that game. Gary Graham was just so inexplicably bad. He gave them so so many penalties and took a try from us.

Yep. Good call.

Should still have been a win at the end, mind. Liam Williams knocks Du's ball back to keep it from Hoggy, then tackles Hogg. Off the ball. Should've been a penalty, three points and a win. Certainly would've been if it had happened the other way round. And then we'd be happy. Ish.

TBF I knew something was wrong when I saw it at the time, but it took seeing a replay to notice what Carley missed there.

I called it straight away Williams flops onto Hogg on the ground has always been a penalty!!

It's a penalty if you see it.

We never get those calls, do we?

Taylor played and scored for Sarries yesterday.

That was a tough one to take.

What is really bothering me is that a win would have been a massive step in confidence/belief, something I think this team needs more than anything.

Now it feels like an extremely tough trip to France, potential of going against Ireland of the back of two defeats and then a 6th/5th tussle with Italy.

I think we could have shrugged off a lose against France had we have won yesterday.

A win against France isn't needed, but a very good performance and being in it till the end is. For confidence/belief if nothing else.

charltom wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:50 am

Openside wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:18 pm

charltom wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:34 pm
Yep. Good call.

Should still have been a win at the end, mind. Liam Williams knocks Du's ball back to keep it from Hoggy, then tackles Hogg. Off the ball. Should've been a penalty, three points and a win. Certainly would've been if it had happened the other way round. And then we'd be happy. Ish.

TBF I knew something was wrong when I saw it at the time, but it took seeing a replay to notice what Carley missed there.

I called it straight away Williams flops onto Hogg on the ground has always been a penalty!!

It's a penalty if you see it.

We never get those calls, do we?

Yes we got one first minute of the England game after Itoje's first chargedown and Hill flopped onto the resulting ruck.

I can only hope that the Scotland team woke up even more pissed off with that performance than I did.

So I woke up at 5am with a wine-induced headache and couldn’t get back to sleep. Decided to get up, watch the game and lance the boil. Some thoughts.

Was it a red card? Having watched it about 20 times, I think it was harsh. It isn’t a shoulder charge to the head - the chest takes the majority of the impact. The amount of contact to the head was minimal - I doubt the Welsh player even really noticed it. If you choose to interpret the rules as stringently as possible, yes, there was some contact to the head area and it’s a red card offence, but if the ref had just given a penalty I doubt it would even have been a talking point afterwards. I actually missed the offence itself in real-time despite knowing it was coming. However, Fagerson is a complete moron for giving the referee that decision to make, especially after last week. It’s so entirely pointless. What was it ever going to achieve?

Despite my expectations, though, we didn’t lose the game because of the red card. For me, we lost for two reasons. The first was that we didn’t turn our possession and field position into points. This was also a problem last week - we didn’t mind because we won, but our control of the game was such that we should have won by 15 or so. Yesterday it was partly questionable decision-making - there were a number of times we could have kicked for goal and didn’t. The other reason was that our defence - so tight last week - was found wanting at key moments. The first two Wales tries were run in virtually unopposed - they actually had a two-man overlap for the second - and that was when we still had 15 on the field.

I’m going to be slightly revisionist about Gary Graham. I think some of the criticism he’s had is unfair. He gave away three penalties in quick succession at a crucial time, but I thought he was only clearly to blame for the first (going off his feet). The second one was for a high tackle, which I thought was fussy on the part of the ref (one arm slipped upwards, but there was no intent and zero danger). This unfortunately led directly to the first Wales try. The third penalty was shortly after that, and I still don’t have a clue what it was for. I was watching with the sound off, so maybe I missed a crucial bit of info, but as far as I could see Graham didn’t do anything to deserve it. The disallowed try wasn’t his fault, either. He did his job - he took the ball and got it over the line. The fact that Cummings got in his way is on Cummings rather than Graham.

The ball was meant for Cummings. Cummings for Glasgow and Scotland always runs the short line off 9. He did it twice in this game before that. The angle Cummings took was the short line angle. Was 100% on Graham - getting subbed himself after 40 minutes to put Cummings at 6 shows what Townsend thought of his performance.

Graham also was pushed back in contact every time. Far far worse than CDP's game against Wales that time. Awful. Back to Newcastle.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:54 am The ball was meant for Cummings. Cummings for Glasgow and Scotland always runs the short line off 9. He did it twice in this game before that. The angle Cummings took was the short line angle. Was 100% on Graham - getting subbed himself after 40 minutes to put Cummings at 6 shows what Townsend thought of his performance.

Graham also was pushed back in contact every time. Far far worse than CDP's game against Wales that time. Awful. Back to Newcastle.

Missed that he was subbed off TBH. So you’re saying he shouldn’t have been there at all? I can sort of see that, but I still think it’s a but harsh to blame a player for taking a pass and getting over the line. Any idea what the third penalty was for? It was the one where he hopped over a player on the deck?

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:07 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:54 am The ball was meant for Cummings. Cummings for Glasgow and Scotland always runs the short line off 9. He did it twice in this game before that. The angle Cummings took was the short line angle. Was 100% on Graham - getting subbed himself after 40 minutes to put Cummings at 6 shows what Townsend thought of his performance.

Graham also was pushed back in contact every time. Far far worse than CDP's game against Wales that time. Awful. Back to Newcastle.

Missed that he was subbed off TBH. So you’re saying he shouldn’t have been there at all? I can sort of see that, but I still think it’s a but harsh to blame a player for taking a pass and getting over the line. Any idea what the third penalty was for? It was the one where he hopped over a player on the deck?

I do kind of agree - Price and Cummings do that all the time. It's a great weapon so I guess Cummings called it came from wide price passed it to him and then Graham instinctively grabbed the ball. But 100% the call will have been to Cummings on the angle as Glasgow and Scotland do it so often.

I don't remember the third penalty I'm sorry. But when Gary Graham was near the ball Scotland went to sh*t until Townsend hooked him. I think he should've been given a go but that performance was so bad he now has to go back to Newcastle. With Matt Fagerson at 8 we should have Bradbury focus on 6... For Glasgow and Scotland. Could be a good duo those two.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:21 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:07 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:54 am The ball was meant for Cummings. Cummings for Glasgow and Scotland always runs the short line off 9. He did it twice in this game before that. The angle Cummings took was the short line angle. Was 100% on Graham - getting subbed himself after 40 minutes to put Cummings at 6 shows what Townsend thought of his performance.

Graham also was pushed back in contact every time. Far far worse than CDP's game against Wales that time. Awful. Back to Newcastle.

Missed that he was subbed off TBH. So you’re saying he shouldn’t have been there at all? I can sort of see that, but I still think it’s a but harsh to blame a player for taking a pass and getting over the line. Any idea what the third penalty was for? It was the one where he hopped over a player on the deck?

I do kind of agree - Price and Cummings do that all the time. It's a great weapon so I guess Cummings called it came from wide price passed it to him and then Graham instinctively grabbed the ball. But 100% the call will have been to Cummings on the angle as Glasgow and Scotland do it so often.

I don't remember the third penalty I'm sorry. But when Gary Graham was near the ball Scotland went to sh*t until Townsend hooked him. I think he should've been given a go but that performance was so bad he now has to go back to Newcastle. With Matt Fagerson at 8 we should have Bradbury focus on 6... For Glasgow and Scotland. Could be a good duo those two.

Fagerson played well TBH. He’ll never be the wrecking ball of an 8 we’d like, but he’ll definitely do.

Just a sec. Bradbury doesn’t play for Glasgow, and I don’t see him moving down the M8? Also, I think he should continue to focus on playing 8 - we need at least two credible options in each position, and if Graham isn’t going to be one of them then Bradbury is the other candidate.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:38 am Just a sec. Bradbury doesn’t play for Glasgow, and I don’t see him moving down the M8? Also, I think he should continue to focus on playing 8 - we need at least two credible options in each position, and if Graham isn’t going to be one of them then Bradbury is the other candidate.

Not yet! But with Ritchie Watson and Mata all staying at Edinburgh surely they'll move him across. Makes too much sense.

He's not an 8 imo. He just isn't a good enough carrier. He's very industrious and physical though. He's a Jason White type.

I waited until today to post to see if my perspective improved having slept on it, but if anything it’s worse. I genuinely think that might have been our best opportunity to build something special since the 90s. We caught England with their pants down, Ireland are at a low ebb, Wales are as poor as they’ve been in at least a decade. And we still managed to lose; if that’s the worst Wales in a decade and the best Scotland in 20 years, how are we going to fair when inevitably things swing back the other way? Thoroughly depressing really.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:54 am The ball was meant for Cummings. Cummings for Glasgow and Scotland always runs the short line off 9. He did it twice in this game before that. The angle Cummings took was the short line angle. Was 100% on Graham - getting subbed himself after 40 minutes to put Cummings at 6 shows what Townsend thought of his performance.

Graham also was pushed back in contact every time. Far far worse than CDP's game against Wales that time. Awful. Back to Newcastle.

Or Price could have picked the right pass.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:27 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:21 am

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:07 am

Missed that he was subbed off TBH. So you’re saying he shouldn’t have been there at all? I can sort of see that, but I still think it’s a but harsh to blame a player for taking a pass and getting over the line. Any idea what the third penalty was for? It was the one where he hopped over a player on the deck?

I do kind of agree - Price and Cummings do that all the time. It's a great weapon so I guess Cummings called it came from wide price passed it to him and then Graham instinctively grabbed the ball. But 100% the call will have been to Cummings on the angle as Glasgow and Scotland do it so often.

I don't remember the third penalty I'm sorry. But when Gary Graham was near the ball Scotland went to sh*t until Townsend hooked him. I think he should've been given a go but that performance was so bad he now has to go back to Newcastle. With Matt Fagerson at 8 we should have Bradbury focus on 6... For Glasgow and Scotland. Could be a good duo those two.

Fagerson played well TBH. He’ll never be the wrecking ball of an 8 we’d like, but he’ll definitely do.

Maybe I’ll have to watch it again but I thought Fagerson was very average. Gave away silly penalties, was trying to be disruptive from positions where he should have been head down and helping instead. Really thought he was poor yesterday after a good game last week.

8 is still very much a problem position

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:30 pm

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:27 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:21 am

I do kind of agree - Price and Cummings do that all the time. It's a great weapon so I guess Cummings called it came from wide price passed it to him and then Graham instinctively grabbed the ball. But 100% the call will have been to Cummings on the angle as Glasgow and Scotland do it so often.

I don't remember the third penalty I'm sorry. But when Gary Graham was near the ball Scotland went to sh*t until Townsend hooked him. I think he should've been given a go but that performance was so bad he now has to go back to Newcastle. With Matt Fagerson at 8 we should have Bradbury focus on 6... For Glasgow and Scotland. Could be a good duo those two.

Fagerson played well TBH. He’ll never be the wrecking ball of an 8 we’d like, but he’ll definitely do.

Maybe I’ll have to watch it again but I thought Fagerson was very average. Gave away silly penalties, was trying to be disruptive from positions where he should have been head down and helping instead. Really thought he was poor yesterday after a good game last week.

8 is still very much a problem position

He was illdisciplined but carried and defended well. I think he's the answer. 22 years old so has a long time to smooth those rough edges and improve further.

Glasgow announcing a backrow signing at 18:00
Wonder if it will be someone from Edinburgh.

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:15 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:54 am The ball was meant for Cummings. Cummings for Glasgow and Scotland always runs the short line off 9. He did it twice in this game before that. The angle Cummings took was the short line angle. Was 100% on Graham - getting subbed himself after 40 minutes to put Cummings at 6 shows what Townsend thought of his performance.

Graham also was pushed back in contact every time. Far far worse than CDP's game against Wales that time. Awful. Back to Newcastle.

Or Price could have picked the right pass.

Yeah, that was my view. If he'd hit Cummings he was over for the score. Instead he puts the two of them in a position where its difficult not to give a penalty away.

I think Fagerson Jr was only pinged once, right at the start, though I could be mistaken.

If Glasgow announce Bradbury as a signing it will make me look a bit silly after stating he wouldn’t be going to Glasgow.

Begbie wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:25 pm Glasgow announcing a backrow signing at 18:00
Wonder if it will be someone from Edinburgh.

Ali Miller?

Achahoish wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:43 pm

Begbie wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:25 pm Glasgow announcing a backrow signing at 18:00
Wonder if it will be someone from Edinburgh.

Ali Miller?

They've been bigging this signing up for a while. It'll surely be a big name or they're really taking the piss.

Jack Dempsey signs for Glasgow.

Interesting signing.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:59 pm

Achahoish wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:43 pm

Begbie wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:25 pm Glasgow announcing a backrow signing at 18:00
Wonder if it will be someone from Edinburgh.

Ali Miller?

They've been bigging this signing up for a while. It'll surely be a big name or they're really taking the piss.

I was taking the piss

Just saw a clip of the Van der Merwe break at the end of the game from a different angle. I didn’t realise how utterly robbed we were. Liam Williams clearly knocks the ball backwards and then holds Hogg back to prevent him from reaching it. It’s an obvious penalty, and probably wins us the game. Ref (who was an absolute stickler for the sending off, let it be noted) not interested.



I can’t quite decide, after watching it a dozen times, whether Hogg would have caught the ball if Williams hadn’t got his hand in the way. Legal (as it went backwards) but impeding Hogg afterwards definitely isn’t.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:10 am

charltom wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:50 am

Openside wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:18 pm

I called it straight away Williams flops onto Hogg on the ground has always been a penalty!!

It's a penalty if you see it.

We never get those calls, do we?

Yes we got one first minute of the England game after Itoje's first chargedown and Hill flopped onto the resulting ruck.

Nah. Different offence, opposite end of the match, so that's not one of "those calls".

Re the Hogg, Williams incident at the end, it was undoubtedly a penalty but I don’t think Hogg was complaining about that. He got up and joined the ruck without a word then only started appealing after someone on the other side of the ruck started shouting about something.

Toonie complained after the game that Harris was on the ball at that last ruck for a long time and that it should have been a penalty.

We didn’t get the rub of the green on Saturday, but we did let Wales back into the match when we should have kept the boot on their neck.

We had enough of the game to win it comfortably, we should be looking at that, the ref wasn’t the reason we lost.


Edit, looking at the match stats makes it worse, Wales conceded more penalties and were had the Lions share of everything.
We should have battered them
https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats ... gue=180659

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:47 am Toonie complained after the game that Harris was on the ball at that last ruck for a long time and that it should have been a penalty.

We didn’t get the rub of the green on Saturday, but we did let Wales back into the match when we should have kept the boot on their neck.

We had enough of the game to win it comfortably, we should be looking at that, the ref wasn’t the reason we lost.


Edit, looking at the match stats makes it worse, Wales conceded more penalties and were had the Lions share of everything.
We should have battered them
https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats ... gue=180659

Yes, the noise around the (deserved) red card and the last min non penalty really shouldn't drown out the fact we should have won and were pretty toothless again in attack inside the 22.

charltom wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:34 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:10 am

charltom wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:50 am

It's a penalty if you see it.

We never get those calls, do we?

Yes we got one first minute of the England game after Itoje's first chargedown and Hill flopped onto the resulting ruck.

Nah. Different offence, opposite end of the match, so that's not one of "those calls".

Off feet at ruck is the same offence and if England scored a try in the first minute the game is totally different.

This woe is me attitude to Scotland and refereeing is just silly.

Big D wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:00 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:47 am Toonie complained after the game that Harris was on the ball at that last ruck for a long time and that it should have been a penalty.

We didn’t get the rub of the green on Saturday, but we did let Wales back into the match when we should have kept the boot on their neck.

We had enough of the game to win it comfortably, we should be looking at that, the ref wasn’t the reason we lost.


Edit, looking at the match stats makes it worse, Wales conceded more penalties and were had the Lions share of everything.
We should have battered them
https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats ... gue=180659

Yes, the noise around the (deserved) red card and the last min non penalty really shouldn't drown out the fact we should have won and were pretty toothless again in attack inside the 22.

Completely agree, we should have been out of sight by halftime and I'm certainly not blaming the ref.

The key moment for me was the butchering of the third try by Price / Cummings / Graham. Whether the pass was to the wrong guy (it's on Price), a stupid blocking line (it's on Cummings) or the third player should never have got in the way of a tried and tested Glasgow move (it's on Graham), I don't know - but at 24-8 that game is done and dusted. They also had multiple penalties right under the sticks in the build up. To come out of that with 0 points was the killer.

The red card was harsh, the final play should have resulted in a Scotland penalty - all true. But after that moment where it didn't go to 24-8, Wales were on top for the rest of the match. The Hogg try was a bonus.

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:37 am The key moment for me was the butchering of the third try by Price / Cummings / Graham. Whether the pass was to the wrong guy (it's on Price), a stupid blocking line (it's on Cummings) or the third player should never have got in the way of a tried and tested Glasgow move (it's on Graham), I don't know - but at 24-8 that game is done and dusted. They also had multiple penalties right under the sticks in the build up. To come out of that with 0 points was the killer.

The red card was harsh, the final play should have resulted in a Scotland penalty - all true. But after that moment where it didn't go to 24-8, Wales were on top for the rest of the match. The Hogg try was a bonus.

With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight we should have kept Darcy Graham on and gone with 7 forwards. Nel is still a brute of a scrummager.
We were stretched out wide for at least one of the scores and the whole set up is different with only six backs.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:23 am

charltom wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:34 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:10 am

Yes we got one first minute of the England game after Itoje's first chargedown and Hill flopped onto the resulting ruck.

Nah. Different offence, opposite end of the match, so that's not one of "those calls".

Off feet at ruck is the same offence and if England scored a try in the first minute the game is totally different.

This woe is me attitude to Scotland and refereeing is just silly.

Social media has turned everyone in to a citing officer. You see it after almost every single game now, it's really tedious.

Begbie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:57 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:23 am

charltom wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:34 pm

Nah. Different offence, opposite end of the match, so that's not one of "those calls".

Off feet at ruck is the same offence and if England scored a try in the first minute the game is totally different.

This woe is me attitude to Scotland and refereeing is just silly.

Social media has turned everyone in to a citing officer. You see it after almost every single game now, it's really tedious.

During the game I'm as bad as anyone, but it's like calling "FFS Ref" from the side of the pitch. Afterwards, cold light of day etc, it's very rare that a loss is down to anything other than our own mistakes.

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:37 am The key moment for me was the butchering of the third try by Price / Cummings / Graham. Whether the pass was to the wrong guy (it's on Price), a stupid blocking line (it's on Cummings) or the third player should never have got in the way of a tried and tested Glasgow move (it's on Graham), I don't know - but at 24-8 that game is done and dusted. They also had multiple penalties right under the sticks in the build up. To come out of that with 0 points was the killer.

The red card was harsh, the final play should have resulted in a Scotland penalty - all true. But after that moment where it didn't go to 24-8, Wales were on top for the rest of the match. The Hogg try was a bonus.

Anyone else feel that if it had been us giving away a succession of penalties under our own posts, we’d have had a player in the bin?