Heineken Champions/Challenge Cup 2022 Semi-Finals Weekend

[Tichtheid]

as factual as Redpath wearing an England shirt one week and a Scotland shirt the next.

Did he do that?

What was the time elapsed between his last cap for England U20s and his first Scotland cap?

I hope this isn't a 'well it wasn't a week' whine.

June 2019 - last game for England U20

Feb 2021 - first game for Scotland


https://www.itsrugby.co.uk/player-inter ... 42035.html

[JM2K6]

I'm all for it too.

but one is scouting and another is poaching, depending solely on where one's allegiances lie

Yup, exactly. And I'm with you that this argument cropping up every 6 months is incredibly tedious. It shouldn't happen because people should be bright enough to realise that every country has done something that could reasonably be described as poaching, every country obeys the eligibility laws, and ultimately none of this is worth the energy people put into getting angry about it / defending their own line in the sand. It's a recipe for shitfights based on nothing but piss and vinegar.

Just so we're clear - Saracens are not developing partnership clubs in T2 and T3 countries to develop future England internationals.

It's a ridiculous strawman and I've got no idea why you think it's relevant let alone reply to it!

All I said about it was that the hypothetical situation where a player is picked up by Saracens and progresses to international level is actually a positive, not a negative. So my opinion is even if Saracens are actively doing that, it's a good thing, not a bad thing. And I find it odd that people would think otherwise!

[Kawazaki]

Did he do that?

What was the time elapsed between his last cap for England U20s and his first Scotland cap?

I hope this isn't a 'well it wasn't a week' whine.

June 2019 - last game for England U20

Feb 2021 - first game for Scotland


https://www.itsrugby.co.uk/player-inter ... 42035.html

All that development funding and, more importantly, a space taken up in the England pathway, by a player that the SRU didn't pay a penny towards.

It's a great scam but call it what it is.

[PornDog]

Did he do that?

What was the time elapsed between his last cap for England U20s and his first Scotland cap?

I hope this isn't a 'well it wasn't a week' whine.

June 2019 - last game for England U20

Feb 2021 - first game for Scotland


https://www.itsrugby.co.uk/player-inter ... 42035.html

Probably not too different to Martin Johnson then

[Kawazaki]

Yup, exactly. And I'm with you that this argument cropping up every 6 months is incredibly tedious. It shouldn't happen because people should be bright enough to realise that every country has done something that could reasonably be described as poaching, every country obeys the eligibility laws, and ultimately none of this is worth the energy people put into getting angry about it / defending their own line in the sand. It's a recipe for shitfights based on nothing but piss and vinegar.

Just so we're clear - Saracens are not developing partnership clubs in T2 and T3 countries to develop future England internationals.

It's a ridiculous strawman and I've got no idea why you think it's relevant let alone reply to it!

All I said about it was that the hypothetical situation where a player is picked up by Saracens and progresses to international level is actually a positive, not a negative. So my opinion is even if Saracens are actively doing that, it's a good thing, not a bad thing. And I find it odd that people would think otherwise!

It's a completely different thing to what was being discussed. It's a strawman with a thatched roof. Just surprised you replied to something so out of place.

[Tichtheid]

Good insights JM

I guess when you get down to it, my main two objections are -
1 The cynical way that the IRFU exploited the residency rule, actively setting up structures (the 4+1 rule) to promote signing of player with an eye on them qualifying through residency. It doesn't reflect on my opinion of those players themselves, but it was some cynical bullshit that really left a sour taste in my mouth. Thankfully that's gone now
2 As you say, the preferential bias often times given to 'foreign' players over domestic ones. You gave some good examples from an English perspective, thankfully I can't really think of of any Irish ones off the top of my head (though Brian Smith and Dion O'Cuinneagain would probably fall into that category in times past), but the whole Edinbokke thing can't be good for the long term development of Scottish rugby

To be honest there is a particular problem at Edinburgh and in Scottish rugby as a whole, but I'll get back to that in a minute.

Duhan van der Merwe's career was over, he had a bad hip injury and was out of contract at Montpellier. He failed his medical when Edinburgh wanted to sign him but Richard Cockerill persuaded the management to give him a chance of surgery and see what came of it. He went under the knife, did the rehab and he's never looked back, we are in not too bad shape in the back three, even if we didn't have him.

van der Walt is a squad player, he got a Scotland cap because simply there was no one else at the time due to injury and I don't see many saying he is a great loss to the Boks. He's at least fifth choice at fly half for Scotland.
The likes of Scoemann, Nel, Venter and de Bruin are a sad reflection on the fact that we really are struggling to produce pro-quality props. A few Scottish born props are now playing in the Premiership but with the exception of Rory Sutherland none of them are top class.

We've been very late to the party and our academy and feeder system below pro level is still very new, only a couple of years old, we hope this will address the short-comings

[JM2K6]

Good insights JM

I guess when you get down to it, my main two objections are -
1 The cynical way that the IRFU exploited the residency rule, actively setting up structures (the 4+1 rule) to promote signing of player with an eye on them qualifying through residency. It doesn't reflect on my opinion of those players themselves, but it was some cynical bullshit that really left a sour taste in my mouth. Thankfully that's gone now
2 As you say, the preferential bias often times given to 'foreign' players over domestic ones. You gave some good examples from an English perspective, thankfully I can't really think of of any Irish ones off the top of my head (though Brian Smith and Dion O'Cuinneagain would probably fall into that category in times past), but the whole Edinbokke thing can't be good for the long term development of Scottish rugby

Thing is, 1) was just the IRFU making an existing process (overseas players coming to Ireland and playing rugby with an eye on qualifying for Ireland selection) a more organised and targeted thing. I understand the distaste (my own feelings on this have changed over the years) but ultimately I don't think you saw a sea change in the makeup of Irish rugby. We're talking a handful of players and Ireland were no more or less poachy as a result. The fact that there was some thought behind it is probably a positive, because it logically means that players were being targeted in positions where there was the greatest need.

2) is just a coaching/management issue that adds more emotion to an already frequently illogical argument around eligibility. But ultimately every nation should be doing what's best for the health of their national side and the sport in their country - it's just that they might get it wrong. Jury's out on the Edinbokke but it's worth noting just how many good young Scottish players are making a name for themselves at the moment!

[robmatic]

I think the project player thing in Scottish rugby is pretty much finished now with the 5 year eligibility rule, but I never had much of a problem with it. Those players have arguably proved to be less mercenary than some of the ancestry qualified players who nobody complains about as much.

Even Tim Visser has ended up living in Edinburgh after his retirement and still seems to follow Edinburgh as a fan, and I always thought he was the most cynical of poaches.

[Tichtheid]

I think the project player thing in Scottish rugby is pretty much finished now with the 5 year eligibility rule, but I never had much of a problem with it. Those players have arguably proved to be less mercenary than some of the ancestry qualified players who nobody complains about as much.

Even Tim Visser has ended up living in Edinburgh after his retirement and still seems to follow Edinburgh as a fan, and I always thought he was the most cynical of poaches.

The one I'd be uncomfortable with would be Jack Dempsey, even though he's the ideal solution to a problem position for us. A law that was brought in to help T2 nations being used to patch up a T1 side sticks in the craw a little.

Having said that Ben Muncaster is looking the part at 20 years old.

[Tichtheid]

There is an interesting case cropping up on the ABs thread.

Folau Fakatava is 22 years old, he's lived in New Zealand since he was 16 but the residency clock only starts ticking at 18. He was originally eligible to play for the ABs by late 2021. However, and presumably because he wasn't picked, he missed the 3 year changing to five year deadline, so he would have had to wait another year.

Seemingly World Rugby have cleared him to play in the upcoming series against Ireland in July.

[Camroc2]

I cannot see the negative behind the idea that if a really good player emerges in Abu Dhabi they might end up at a professional club in a T1 country and maybe represent that country. That seems pretty aspirational to me!

To change subject slightly to a potential problem for Irish/Leinster rugby, and that is big English and French clubs offering professional contracts to Irish U19s straight out of school. In the last year or so Leinster have seen Karl Martin go to Montpelier, and Lucas Berti-Newman to Bristol. Both were in the Leinster system, but not under a professional contract.

Is pro rugby going to go the way of pro soccer, where young men simply become commodities to be traded ?

[JM2K6]

I cannot see the negative behind the idea that if a really good player emerges in Abu Dhabi they might end up at a professional club in a T1 country and maybe represent that country. That seems pretty aspirational to me!

To change subject slightly to a potential problem for Irish/Leinster rugby, and that is big English and French clubs offering professional contracts to Irish U19s straight out of school. In the last year or so Leinster have seen Karl Martin go to Montpelier, and Lucas Berti-Newman to Bristol. Both were in the Leinster system, but not under a professional contract.

Is pro rugby going to go the way of pro soccer, where young men simply become commodities to be traded ?

What was stopping Leinster from giving them contracts?

[Kawazaki]

I cannot see the negative behind the idea that if a really good player emerges in Abu Dhabi they might end up at a professional club in a T1 country and maybe represent that country. That seems pretty aspirational to me!

To change subject slightly to a potential problem for Irish/Leinster rugby, and that is big English and French clubs offering professional contracts to Irish U19s straight out of school. In the last year or so Leinster have seen Karl Martin go to Montpelier, and Lucas Berti-Newman to Bristol. Both were in the Leinster system, but not under a professional contract.

Is pro rugby going to go the way of pro soccer, where young men simply become commodities to be traded ?

It depends. There's been quite a few boasts from Leinster fans that they have 'academy kids' on €10k a year who are already good enough to step in and play URC league games while the players on €800k get a rest before HEC matches.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Good insights JM

I guess when you get down to it, my main two objections are -
1 The cynical way that the IRFU exploited the residency rule, actively setting up structures (the 4+1 rule) to promote signing of player with an eye on them qualifying through residency. It doesn't reflect on my opinion of those players themselves, but it was some cynical bullshit that really left a sour taste in my mouth. Thankfully that's gone now

It's not gone, it's just now you'd more think about targeting bringing players over at a younger age. The change will have wrought some protections for the international game, and also driven some sourcing/poaching activities which are less desirable in terms of uprooting still younger persons, though even then the idea of aspiration and opportunity isn't without merit

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I cannot see the negative behind the idea that if a really good player emerges in Abu Dhabi they might end up at a professional club in a T1 country and maybe represent that country. That seems pretty aspirational to me!

To change subject slightly to a potential problem for Irish/Leinster rugby, and that is big English and French clubs offering professional contracts to Irish U19s straight out of school. In the last year or so Leinster have seen Karl Martin go to Montpelier, and Lucas Berti-Newman to Bristol. Both were in the Leinster system, but not under a professional contract.

Is pro rugby going to go the way of pro soccer, where young men simply become commodities to be traded ?

What would the alternative be? That those young players be considered the property of the club/franchise, and then even if they don't play senior rugby they still receive renumeration, or even just taken out back and shot if deemed surplus to requirements?

[CM11]

I cannot see the negative behind the idea that if a really good player emerges in Abu Dhabi they might end up at a professional club in a T1 country and maybe represent that country. That seems pretty aspirational to me!

To change subject slightly to a potential problem for Irish/Leinster rugby, and that is big English and French clubs offering professional contracts to Irish U19s straight out of school. In the last year or so Leinster have seen Karl Martin go to Montpelier, and Lucas Berti-Newman to Bristol. Both were in the Leinster system, but not under a professional contract.

Is pro rugby going to go the way of pro soccer, where young men simply become commodities to be traded ?

It depends. There's been quite a few boasts from Leinster fans that they have 'academy kids' on €10k a year who are already good enough to step in and play URC league games while the players on €800k get a rest before HEC matches.

Players on 800k?

Our academy are on about that, less I thought actually but plus benefits.

We'll always miss the odd one but I'm not too worried about the situation currently.

[Camroc2]

I cannot see the negative behind the idea that if a really good player emerges in Abu Dhabi they might end up at a professional club in a T1 country and maybe represent that country. That seems pretty aspirational to me!

To change subject slightly to a potential problem for Irish/Leinster rugby, and that is big English and French clubs offering professional contracts to Irish U19s straight out of school. In the last year or so Leinster have seen Karl Martin go to Montpelier, and Lucas Berti-Newman to Bristol. Both were in the Leinster system, but not under a professional contract.

Is pro rugby going to go the way of pro soccer, where young men simply become commodities to be traded ?

What was stopping Leinster from giving them contracts?

Nothing bar money. Leinster don't pay sub academy players, and academy players get € 10k - € 12 k pa. It's how our system works. and is able to work. And of course, if there is no contract, there is no obligation. But I don't like the idea of agents outside schoolgates whispering sweet nothings into schoolboy players ears. Perhaps it was always going to happen with professionalism.

[Kawazaki]

To change subject slightly to a potential problem for Irish/Leinster rugby, and that is big English and French clubs offering professional contracts to Irish U19s straight out of school. In the last year or so Leinster have seen Karl Martin go to Montpelier, and Lucas Berti-Newman to Bristol. Both were in the Leinster system, but not under a professional contract.

Is pro rugby going to go the way of pro soccer, where young men simply become commodities to be traded ?

It depends. There's been quite a few boasts from Leinster fans that they have 'academy kids' on €10k a year who are already good enough to step in and play URC league games while the players on €800k get a rest before HEC matches.

Players on 800k?

Our academy are on about that, less I thought actually but plus benefits.

We'll always miss the odd one but I'm not too worried about the situation currently.

So you pay lads less than they'd earn working part-time in McDonald's and you're surprised they're looking elsewhere?

And yes, Sexton is easily on €800k.

[CM11]

I cannot see the negative behind the idea that if a really good player emerges in Abu Dhabi they might end up at a professional club in a T1 country and maybe represent that country. That seems pretty aspirational to me!

To change subject slightly to a potential problem for Irish/Leinster rugby, and that is big English and French clubs offering professional contracts to Irish U19s straight out of school. In the last year or so Leinster have seen Karl Martin go to Montpelier, and Lucas Berti-Newman to Bristol. Both were in the Leinster system, but not under a professional contract.

Is pro rugby going to go the way of pro soccer, where young men simply become commodities to be traded ?

What was stopping Leinster from giving them contracts?

We don't even offer full academy spots out of school anymore let alone full contracts. While we regularly bump players up before they finish the academy programme, it would usually be after year one at the earliest. It generally leads to a squad which we're more sure about as we've gotten to see the players perform before potentially wasting money on them.

[CM11]

Our current academy have 57 caps between them this season.

Pick of the bunch are Joe McCarthy (called up to train with Ireland, in HEC 23 in Baird's absence), Alex Soroka and Jamie Osbourne.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

To change subject slightly to a potential problem for Irish/Leinster rugby, and that is big English and French clubs offering professional contracts to Irish U19s straight out of school. In the last year or so Leinster have seen Karl Martin go to Montpelier, and Lucas Berti-Newman to Bristol. Both were in the Leinster system, but not under a professional contract.

Is pro rugby going to go the way of pro soccer, where young men simply become commodities to be traded ?

What was stopping Leinster from giving them contracts?

Nothing bar money. Leinster don't pay sub academy players, and academy players get € 10k - € 12 k pa. It's how our system works. and is able to work. And of course, if there is no contract, there is no obligation. But I don't like the idea of agents outside schoolgates whispering sweet nothings into schoolboy players ears. Perhaps it was always going to happen with professionalism.

hard to defend a system which wants to pay people less than €6 per hour and even wants loyalty in return for pocket money.

[CM11]

What was stopping Leinster from giving them contracts?

Nothing bar money. Leinster don't pay sub academy players, and academy players get € 10k - € 12 k pa. It's how our system works. and is able to work. And of course, if there is no contract, there is no obligation. But I don't like the idea of agents outside schoolgates whispering sweet nothings into schoolboy players ears. Perhaps it was always going to happen with professionalism.

hard to defend a system which wants to pay people less than €6 per hour and even wants loyalty in return for pocket money.

Most academy players would be doing a degree too and wouldn't be expected to train as fully as the main squad. They also get benefits on top of their academy contract. I imagine there's also a match fee for any games they play.

[petej]

I cannot see the negative behind the idea that if a really good player emerges in Abu Dhabi they might end up at a professional club in a T1 country and maybe represent that country. That seems pretty aspirational to me!

To change subject slightly to a potential problem for Irish/Leinster rugby, and that is big English and French clubs offering professional contracts to Irish U19s straight out of school. In the last year or so Leinster have seen Karl Martin go to Montpelier, and Lucas Berti-Newman to Bristol. Both were in the Leinster system, but not under a professional contract.

Is pro rugby going to go the way of pro soccer, where young men simply become commodities to be traded ?

What was stopping Leinster from giving them contracts?

And this goes both ways. Some players will end up representing other countries particularly within the home nations. The Irfu are certainly not above it themselves (example below). Talented players will be missed by youth systems. Some player's develop later.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4869503

Been a key player for tigers this season but was out due to injury for the Leinster match.

Spoiler

Show

Dan Kelly’s rugby career has not alone been driven by talent but also several serendipitous moments where his ability to change direction off the pitch was every bit as telling as his footwork on it.

The 20-year-old centre is expected to line out at inside centre for the Leicester Tigers in their Champions Cup quarter-final against Leinster at Welford Road on Saturday evening. In a parallel universe the Manchester-born player could well be wearing the blue of Leinster.

It is just two years ago since the teenage Kelly was a popular and central figure in an Ireland team that won their first three matches in the Under-20 Six Nations Championship before the remainder of the tournament and indeed that year’s Junior World Championship was wiped out due to the Covid-19 pandemic.

Kelly, who qualified through his Irish born grandparents, formed a destructive centre partnership with Haydn Hyde, a Londoner who also came through the Exiles IQ system and is now back with Harlequins. Kelly was a year young in 2020 so was eligible again last year. Richie Murphy had taken over the Ireland 20s from Noel McNamara and initial prognosis was that the young centre would be available.

Kelly had been offered a place in the Irish academy system at provincial level but had turned it down on the basis that he wanted to finish his studies at Loughborough University. He was approached by and agreed to sign for the Leicester Tigers, then under Geordan Murphy’s direction, and there is no doubt that there would have been pressure to switch national allegiance, not necessarily from the former Irish fullback and director of rugby at the Tigers but from the club.

Kelly started playing rugby at six in Rochdale before moving to Kirkham Grammar School for his sixth form education. He explained previously in an interview: “I was looking to go to college and Kirkham was such a great place. I was around good coaching and talented people.

“It just kicked me on a bit further. Kirkham was massive education-wise and rugby wise.” He also played with Sale Sharks but the club declined to give him an academy contract.

He went to Loughborough University on a scholarship and there came under the rugby tutelage of the director of rugby Gerard Mullen whom Noel McNamara had coached at Clongowes; Mullen recommended Kelly. Having been a standout player in the 2020 Six Nations, the centre looked set to play an important role with Ireland when the 2021 tournament was played in early summer in Cardiff.

Murphy, who succeeded McNamara as Ireland U-20 coach, had remained in regular contact with Kelly. Indeed, the player had been on several Zoom calls relating to Irish team prep. “We were keen that he would come over here and join the Irish system, but he wanted to finish degree first and then got the opportunity with Tigers,” Murphy said.

Kelly never made it to any training sessions and on the day that Ireland announced their squad for the Under-20 Six Nations, Kelly was named by England head coach Eddie Jones as part of an extended squad for summer internationals.

While there was disappointment that Ireland had lost a talented young player, there was also an understanding as to why he made the decision. Murphy said at the time: “It’s obviously disappointing. Dan is a loss. He was in our system last year. He obviously went back to Leicester and is in college over there. His life is around that area. Within the conversations that the IRFU have had with him, Dan has been very good.

“He really enjoyed his time with us, but he feels that he needs to go in a different direction. We respect his decision, and we move on from it.” Kelly made his senior England debut against Canada at Twickenham last summer.

Kelly has made 42 appearances for the Tigers to date - he has scored three tries and a conversion - and has been acknowledged as a defensive leader for the team despite his tender years. He’s not too shabby going forward either, strong in the carry and with good footwork. It will be interesting to benchmark his development on Saturday.

On the other issue only time will tell whether his switch of national allegiance was the right move

[Kawazaki]

Nothing bar money. Leinster don't pay sub academy players, and academy players get € 10k - € 12 k pa. It's how our system works. and is able to work. And of course, if there is no contract, there is no obligation. But I don't like the idea of agents outside schoolgates whispering sweet nothings into schoolboy players ears. Perhaps it was always going to happen with professionalism.

hard to defend a system which wants to pay people less than €6 per hour and even wants loyalty in return for pocket money.

Most academy players would be doing a degree too and wouldn't be expected to train as fully as the main squad. They also get benefits on top of their academy contract. I imagine there's also a match fee for any games they play.

If they're doing a degree then they'll be smart enough to do the sums.

[Mahoney]

I suspect what people really want is a sense that the player is playing for the international side they supported as a child. There's no way to make a window into people's souls of course, so there's no way to prove it, but it's when people strongly suspect this is not the case, and that a player is primarily motivated by the opportunity to play at a higher level and/or the money, that they start throwing the p word around.

The fundamental problem I think is that international sport being the pinnacle is simultaneously a bit of an anachronism and the best motivator of supporters and hence source of money. In many ways it would be much more rational just to have country based franchises and accept that players move between them, but it would be much less like international sport.

[JM2K6]

To change subject slightly to a potential problem for Irish/Leinster rugby, and that is big English and French clubs offering professional contracts to Irish U19s straight out of school. In the last year or so Leinster have seen Karl Martin go to Montpelier, and Lucas Berti-Newman to Bristol. Both were in the Leinster system, but not under a professional contract.

Is pro rugby going to go the way of pro soccer, where young men simply become commodities to be traded ?

What was stopping Leinster from giving them contracts?

Nothing bar money. Leinster don't pay sub academy players, and academy players get € 10k - € 12 k pa. It's how our system works. and is able to work. And of course, if there is no contract, there is no obligation. But I don't like the idea of agents outside schoolgates whispering sweet nothings into schoolboy players ears. Perhaps it was always going to happen with professionalism.

Cheers. I can't remember what academy players are paid but a lot more of them are being promoted to full contracts at the moment due to the salary cap changes. Berti-Newman is EQP so was always going to be involved in a tug of war if he was any good - this time Leinster lost out because another team rated him highly enough to give him a proper contract. C'est la vie, it's a business decision and the player could've gone either way.

I know in football things have changed in the last decade where Premiership clubs have sought to get foreign talent into their academies en masse. I would not like to see that in rugby and would happily support legalisation around it, but until that happens I'm not going to lose too much sleep over it. If it becomes a problem, it'll get fixed. I don't think there's any evidence it's a concerted effort; Leinster are probably just a bit unlucky (and victims of their own success).

[PornDog]

It depends. There's been quite a few boasts from Leinster fans that they have 'academy kids' on €10k a year who are already good enough to step in and play URC league games while the players on €800k get a rest before HEC matches.

Players on 800k?

Our academy are on about that, less I thought actually but plus benefits.

We'll always miss the odd one but I'm not too worried about the situation currently.

So you pay lads less than they'd earn working part-time in McDonald's and you're surprised they're looking elsewhere?

And yes, Sexton is easily on €800k.

Your imagination is not a reliable source.

Sexton's on less now than when he signed back from Racing for €650k, which as you well know Toga, caused you've been told enough times, includes his pay for playing for Ireland.

Murray's the highest paid Irish player on €700k, again including his Irish pay.

[Tichtheid]

I suspect what people really want is a sense that the player is playing for the international side they supported as a child. There's no way to make a window into people's souls of course, so there's no way to prove it, but it's when people strongly suspect this is not the case, and that a player is primarily motivated by the opportunity to play at a higher level and/or the money, that they start throwing the p word around.

I think that is rather idealistic in the light of professional sport. Like any other trade players are able to move and work wherever it is permitted by the relevant laws.

Even Fifa updated its eligibility rules to bring them in line with the OC, as rugby has done.

Football supporters got used to cheering for players from all over the globe when they turned out for their clubs, rugby supporters have quickly done the same, some of the "bleed" of this player movement is that players will end up in an international shirt sporting an unlikely accent, whether in cricket or rugby or athletics or whatever.


On a wider note, may I make a suggestion? We're now mid to late May, when this comes up again for the Autumn internationals and again for the 6N and on ad nauseam, can we just put a link back to these pages and save us the bother of typing out the same things again?

[JM2K6]

Players on 800k?

Our academy are on about that, less I thought actually but plus benefits.

We'll always miss the odd one but I'm not too worried about the situation currently.

So you pay lads less than they'd earn working part-time in McDonald's and you're surprised they're looking elsewhere?

And yes, Sexton is easily on €800k.

Your imagination is not a reliable source.

Sexton's on less now than when he signed back from Racing for €650k, which as you well know Toga, caused you've been told enough times, includes his pay for playing for Ireland.

Murray's the highest paid Irish player on €700k, again including his Irish pay.

Does this include external top-ups? IIRC you guys have deals with third parties to add extras on? Or am I mixing that up with something else entirely...

The top Irish players earning less than 1m euros is well below market rate, I'd say.

[PornDog]

Yes, that would include the amount Denis O'Brien was thought to be contributing to Sexton and what JP is though to give towards Murray. It wouldn't include Sextons earning from promoting Centre, where the ads may well feature a rugby ball, but no Leinster/IRFU kit

[TheFrog]

Below are the top 9 salaries in France. Saffas doing well for themselves.

1. Handré Pollard (photo, Montpellier) : 1,19 M€

2. Eben Etzebeth (RC Toulon) : 1,07 M€

3. Cheslin Kolbe (RC Toulon) : 1,01 M€

4. Finn Russell (Racing) : 1 M€

5. Virimi Vakatawa (Racing) : 926 000 €

6. Nicolás Sánchez (Stade Français) : 665 000 €

7. Morgan Parra (ASM) : 650 000 €

8. Antoine Dupont (Toulouse) : 600 000 €

9. Cobus Reinach (Montpellier) : 600 000 €

[JM2K6]

Yes, that would include the amount Denis O'Brien was thought to be contributing to Sexton and what JP is though to give towards Murray. It wouldn't include Sextons earning from promoting Centre, where the ads may well feature a rugby ball, but no Leinster/IRFU kit

Are the salaries public information?

[TheFrog]

Looking at these salaries, how can English clubs be competitive with a $5m cap when you need at least 33 players under contract to have a squand with enough depth to last through the whole season?

Does that mean that English players salaries will melt under the sun, or that half of the squad will be made of youths contracts? (Which could do wonders for English rugby at international level).


In France, clubs are suffering an inflation of the JIFF salaries (JIFF are players who came through a French rugby academy - this is way France found to work around European laws to impose quotas protecting home grown players). So an average French player is more expensive than a good foreign player.

[PornDog]

No - the Sefton one was wildly reported at the time though.

Murray's one I got myself - the local Limerick newspaper had am article up for about 2 hours in the wake of his contract announcement before taking it down. I'd imagine that was a good indicator of its accuracy.

[JM2K6]

Looking at these salaries, how can English clubs be competitive with a $5m cap when you need at least 33 players under contract to have a squand with enough depth to last through the whole season?

Does that mean that English players salaries will melt under the sun, or that half of the squad will be made of youths contracts? (Which could do wonders for English rugby at international level).


In France, clubs are suffering an inflation of the JIFF salaries (JIFF are players who came through a French rugby academy - this is way France found to work around European laws to impose quotas protecting home grown players). So an average French player is more expensive than a good foreign player.

It's not as simple as just a £5m cap.

Home Grown Player Credits totalling £600,000 (up to £50,000 per player) – designed to incentivise clubs to retain home grown talent;
EPS/International Player Credits up to £80,000 per player capped at £400,000 – to cover player absence during international periods;
Injured Player Credits totalling £400,000 – to allow replacement players to cover for long term injuries;
Two Excluded Players – their entire salary is excluded from the salary cap;
Unlimited education fund for players.

It is however a big step down from this season's £6.4m with uncapped EPS credits.

[JM2K6]

No - the Sefton one was wildly reported at the time though.

Murray's one I got myself - the local Limerick newspaper had am article up for about 2 hours in the wake of his contract announcement before taking it down. I'd imagine that was a good indicator of its accuracy.

Ah. Guesswork. :-)

[Kawazaki]

Yes, that would include the amount Denis O'Brien was thought to be contributing to Sexton and what JP is though to give towards Murray. It wouldn't include Sextons earning from promoting Centre, where the ads may well feature a rugby ball, but no Leinster/IRFU kit

Are the salaries public information?

Not too familiar with Leinster accountants are you JM?!

[laurent]

To be fair The French cap also requires clubs to have a balanced budget (penalties are harsh as some cubs found out (relegation).

[TheFrog]

Looking at these salaries, how can English clubs be competitive with a $5m cap when you need at least 33 players under contract to have a squand with enough depth to last through the whole season?

Does that mean that English players salaries will melt under the sun, or that half of the squad will be made of youths contracts? (Which could do wonders for English rugby at international level).


In France, clubs are suffering an inflation of the JIFF salaries (JIFF are players who came through a French rugby academy - this is way France found to work around European laws to impose quotas protecting home grown players). So an average French player is more expensive than a good foreign player.

It's not as simple as just a £5m cap.

Home Grown Player Credits totalling £600,000 (up to £50,000 per player) – designed to incentivise clubs to retain home grown talent;
EPS/International Player Credits up to £80,000 per player capped at £400,000 – to cover player absence during international periods;
Injured Player Credits totalling £400,000 – to allow replacement players to cover for long term injuries;
Two Excluded Players – their entire salary is excluded from the salary cap;
Unlimited education fund for players.

It is however a big step down from this season's £6.4m with uncapped EPS credits.

I see, thank you for the clarification. Still, seems tight compared to the French cap.

[JM2K6]

Looking at these salaries, how can English clubs be competitive with a $5m cap when you need at least 33 players under contract to have a squand with enough depth to last through the whole season?

Does that mean that English players salaries will melt under the sun, or that half of the squad will be made of youths contracts? (Which could do wonders for English rugby at international level).


In France, clubs are suffering an inflation of the JIFF salaries (JIFF are players who came through a French rugby academy - this is way France found to work around European laws to impose quotas protecting home grown players). So an average French player is more expensive than a good foreign player.

It's not as simple as just a £5m cap.

Home Grown Player Credits totalling £600,000 (up to £50,000 per player) – designed to incentivise clubs to retain home grown talent;
EPS/International Player Credits up to £80,000 per player capped at £400,000 – to cover player absence during international periods;
Injured Player Credits totalling £400,000 – to allow replacement players to cover for long term injuries;
Two Excluded Players – their entire salary is excluded from the salary cap;
Unlimited education fund for players.

It is however a big step down from this season's £6.4m with uncapped EPS credits.

I see, thank you for the clarification. Still, seems tight compared to the French cap.

Yes, it is. But the sport in this country loses an amazing amount of money - we don't have the French advantages.