NPR

dpedin wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:48 am

Blackmac wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:01 pm Not a great second half but the right result, despite the form of some of their bigger players. Foden, Saka outstanding and Watkins probably ran more in 5 minutes than Kane did all game.

Watkins scared the shit out of the Dutch defence. Kane was easy to defend against, everything he did was stationary in front of the defenders and then he went deeper and deeper getting in the way of his midfield. Watkins stretched the defence pushed them back as they were scared shitless of his pace and runs in behind so they sat deeper off him and this created more space for English midfield to play in. Big call from Southgate about Kane now, play him v Spain and they will defend him easily and push England back or play Watkins and stretch the Spanish defence creating space for Foden, Bellingham et al. I suspect he will play safe with Kane but make the subs earlier, probably to chase the game! Should be an interesting game to watch!

Kane is awful at the moment but there is no danger that the captain is getting dropped for the final.

robmatic wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:03 am

dpedin wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:48 am

Blackmac wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:01 pm Not a great second half but the right result, despite the form of some of their bigger players. Foden, Saka outstanding and Watkins probably ran more in 5 minutes than Kane did all game.

Watkins scared the shit out of the Dutch defence. Kane was easy to defend against, everything he did was stationary in front of the defenders and then he went deeper and deeper getting in the way of his midfield. Watkins stretched the defence pushed them back as they were scared shitless of his pace and runs in behind so they sat deeper off him and this created more space for English midfield to play in. Big call from Southgate about Kane now, play him v Spain and they will defend him easily and push England back or play Watkins and stretch the Spanish defence creating space for Foden, Bellingham et al. I suspect he will play safe with Kane but make the subs earlier, probably to chase the game! Should be an interesting game to watch!

Kane is awful at the moment but there is no danger that the captain is getting dropped for the final.

Kane is definitely playing with an injury and knackered.

Kane wasn't static in the first half, there was a clear difference with how he'd played in previous matches.

dpedin wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:49 am

JM2K6 wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:16 am He's trying to play the ball and fails to do so, endangering an opponent. It seems straightforward enough to me - even if he's just blocking, it's still studs up and dangerous play. You can put a foot out to block a pass and if it doesn't work and the opponent collides with your foot it's a foul every time, so it shouldn't be that controversial, but there's a strong correlation with the defence of high tackles in rugby of "what is he supposed to do"

(The answer is "don't gamble" but they don't want to hear that)

Have to agree it was dangerous play endangering the attacker, albeit soft, and Kane made a miraculous recovery to slot home the penalty!

There's no doubt it genuinely hurt - walloped straight into the studs. The sort of thing that breaks metatarsals. Given how long it took to actually make the decision it's not that surprising he'd recovered from the pain.

Like 99% of "injuries" are clearly nothing of the sort, but that one is in the 1%

robmatic wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:03 am

dpedin wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:48 am

Blackmac wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 9:01 pm Not a great second half but the right result, despite the form of some of their bigger players. Foden, Saka outstanding and Watkins probably ran more in 5 minutes than Kane did all game.

Watkins scared the shit out of the Dutch defence. Kane was easy to defend against, everything he did was stationary in front of the defenders and then he went deeper and deeper getting in the way of his midfield. Watkins stretched the defence pushed them back as they were scared shitless of his pace and runs in behind so they sat deeper off him and this created more space for English midfield to play in. Big call from Southgate about Kane now, play him v Spain and they will defend him easily and push England back or play Watkins and stretch the Spanish defence creating space for Foden, Bellingham et al. I suspect he will play safe with Kane but make the subs earlier, probably to chase the game! Should be an interesting game to watch!

Kane is awful at the moment but there is no danger that the captain is getting dropped for the final.

Southgate really is the prototypical England manager who will pick an underperforming established senior player even if there are other players in good form.

Bobby Robson did the same throughout his tenure, Paul Gascoigne could and should have gone to the Euros in 1988 (he was the PFA young player of the year and made the team of the season) but instead he went with the likes of Peter Reid, Trevor Steven and Hoddle because they were more experienced. It always tickles me that Hoddle not taking Gazza in 1998 was considered a big call when in fact his omission in 1988 was imo worse.

Kane falls in the exact same bracket as Shearer and Lineker in that they are all exceptional number 9s who were/are considered undroppable. It frustrates me to no end because whilst they were all the best strikers of their respective generations the managers all had other options (in Shearers case Ian Wright, Les Ferdinand, Andy Cole, amongst others) they barely got given a chance. Who is to say that Watkins might not have had an exceptional tournament if he had been given the Kane's minutes, we will never know.

For once I just wish that an England manager would just pick on form and throw caution to the wind.

Hugo wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 6:59 pm Kane falls in the exact same bracket as Shearer and Lineker in that they are all exceptional number 9s who were/are considered undroppable. It frustrates me to no end because whilst they were all the best strikers of their respective generations the managers all had other options (in Shearers case Ian Wright, Les Ferdinand, Andy Cole, amongst others) they barely got given a chance. Who is to say that Watkins might not have had an exceptional tournament if he had been given the Kane's minutes, we will never know.

For once I just wish that an England manager would just pick on form and throw caution to the wind.

Kane has had a great season so couldn't say he was in bad form prior to the tournament. Suspect some of it is playing with injuries and the rest is balance of the team with Bellingham, foden and kane all wanting to occupy similar spaces. Kane always plays well with those who run beyond him like a sterling, son, rashford so dropping foden or Bellingham for Gordon would probably help. If you want to play Bellingham and foden you should play a striker who is going to stay up top and challenge physically like Toney or one that makes runs behind like Watkins to pull players away from foden/Bellingham.

petej wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:56 pm

Hugo wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 6:59 pm Kane falls in the exact same bracket as Shearer and Lineker in that they are all exceptional number 9s who were/are considered undroppable. It frustrates me to no end because whilst they were all the best strikers of their respective generations the managers all had other options (in Shearers case Ian Wright, Les Ferdinand, Andy Cole, amongst others) they barely got given a chance. Who is to say that Watkins might not have had an exceptional tournament if he had been given the Kane's minutes, we will never know.

For once I just wish that an England manager would just pick on form and throw caution to the wind.

Kane has had a great season so couldn't say he was in bad form prior to the tournament. Suspect some of it is playing with injuries and the rest is balance of the team with Bellingham, foden and kane all wanting to occupy similar spaces. Kane always plays well with those who run beyond him like a sterling, son, rashford so dropping foden or Bellingham for Gordon would probably help. If you want to play Bellingham and foden you should play a striker who is going to stay up top and challenge physically like Toney or one that makes runs behind like Watkins to pull players away from foden/Bellingham.

His form may have been just fine coming into the tournament but his performances have been pretty sub par during it. The overarching problem is that Southgate has stuck with the starting XI and with underperforming players in the starting XI for too long.

In the knockout stages Cole Palmer has played 106 minutes and when he is on the pitch England have scored 4 goals, so a goal every 26 minutes or so.
With Palmer off the pitch we have a managed one goal in approx four hours of football, a penalty at that.
Moreover, other than the Kane penalty the other day England have not scored a goal in the knockouts until the introduction of the third substitute.

I'm saying that to say this - we are self evidently a better side when Southgate makes substitutions because our first XI is not delivering and Kane is a big part of the problem. Yet Southgate continues to pick the same players and still seems hesitant to bring on subs. It is maddening.

From English friends I gather Southgate is now the shit rather than being shit, and it's coming home Good luck to England, their long suffering fans deserve a day in the sun, but Spain are looking unbeatable in my poorly formed Soccer/Football opinion.

Headed into central which I imagine will resemble the last days of Rome before too long.

Can’t pretend I love football but I do love the genuine national moments it can create. On four days notice there’s a group of us meeting up to watch the game together from as far south as Devon and as far north as Fife, some of whom I barely see anymore.

Spain obviously the better team but I just have a good feeling about this one, can’t explain it.

Thinking about the ramifications of an England win and I realised just how easy I had it as an England rugby fan chasing the holy grail. Missed the Slam in 1990, won back to back the following two seasons. Lost to the Wallabies in 1991 and only had to endure two failed campaigns (basically Lomu and De Beer masterclasses) before avenging that defeat on Australian soil twelve years later.

The torment of being an England football fan bears no comparison - this being my 38th year as a fan and 18th major tournament. I would rank the 2003 RWC win as one of the happiest moments of my life and I fervently hope to be feeling the same way after the game tonight.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 11:24 am Headed into central which I imagine will resemble the last days of Rome before too long.

Can’t pretend I love football but I do love the genuine national moments it can create. On four days notice there’s a group of us meeting up to watch the game together from as far south as Devon and as far north as Fife, some of whom I barely see anymore.

Spain obviously the better team but I just have a good feeling about this one, can’t explain it.

I'll be watching it at home tonight, the missus has expressed interest in this so at least I'll have someone to commiserate with.

Would love to watch it in a pub in England, ideally in a sunny beer garden. Enjoy it.

inactionman wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 4:11 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 11:24 am Headed into central which I imagine will resemble the last days of Rome before too long.

Can’t pretend I love football but I do love the genuine national moments it can create. On four days notice there’s a group of us meeting up to watch the game together from as far south as Devon and as far north as Fife, some of whom I barely see anymore.

Spain obviously the better team but I just have a good feeling about this one, can’t explain it.

I'll be watching it at home tonight, the missus has expressed interest in this so at least I'll have someone to commiserate with.

Would love to watch it in a pub in England, ideally in a sunny beer garden. Enjoy it.

Must say, I’m a bit annoyed not to be back and watching it with mates

Need to take Kane off at HT.

sefton wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 7:42 pm Need to take Kane off at HT.

100%.

He's just such a weak link, if we are gonna play with 30% possession we need someone who can hold it up.

At least we are in the match. Thank God.

Kane really has been very poor again. Nice to hear Alex Scott raise the frustration of Kane's lack of movement

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:00 pm Kane really has been very poor again. Nice to hear Alex Scott raise the frustration of Kane's lack of movement

He is clearly not fit. Can't press, hold up the ball or run.

Declan Rice really does have a terrible habit of putting his own team on trouble

Bellingham isn't much better. Looks lazy as fuck. Hanging wide, waiting for the game to come to him whilst Englands midfield is getting stomped on. On the odd occasion he has got the ball he has given it away to easily.

petej wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:11 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:00 pm Kane really has been very poor again. Nice to hear Alex Scott raise the frustration of Kane's lack of movement

He is clearly not fit. Can't press, hold up the ball or run.

Captain Tom would be more mobile up front.

Blackmac wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:15 pm Bellingham isn't much better. Looks lazy as fuck. Hanging wide, waiting for the game to come to him whilst Englands midfield is getting stomped on. On the odd occasion he has got the ball he has given it away to easily.

He's having a poor game but he's repeatedly won the ball defending and beaten several players to make space. There is an absolute gulf between his performance and that of Kane.

He is losing possession too easily otherwise, he's hit a few poor passes, and he's dived a few times. Not a good display. Not lazy, though... And that's why Kane is off and not him.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:20 pm

Blackmac wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:15 pm Bellingham isn't much better. Looks lazy as fuck. Hanging wide, waiting for the game to come to him whilst Englands midfield is getting stomped on. On the odd occasion he has got the ball he has given it away to easily.

He's having a poor game but he's repeatedly won the ball defending and beaten several players to make space. There is an absolute gulf between his performance and that of Kane.

He is losing possession too easily otherwise, he's hit a few poor passes, and he's dived a few times. Not a good display. Not lazy, though... And that's why Kane is off and not him.

Just to back this up, the stats have him having more touches of the ball then any other England player, and four more tackles than any other England player.

Southgate, for the love of God put on more subs.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:20 pm

Blackmac wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:15 pm Bellingham isn't much better. Looks lazy as fuck. Hanging wide, waiting for the game to come to him whilst Englands midfield is getting stomped on. On the odd occasion he has got the ball he has given it away to easily.

He's having a poor game but he's repeatedly won the ball defending and beaten several players to make space. There is an absolute gulf between his performance and that of Kane.

He is losing possession too easily otherwise, he's hit a few poor passes, and he's dived a few times. Not a good display. Not lazy, though... And that's why Kane is off and not him.

Lazy possibly not the best description but Shearer has just echoed my comment. Not getting involved enough and causing Spain no problems. I expected great things from him but he has basically played one good half of football and scored a scissor kick in the tournament.

How do our opponents make more subs and sooner than us when we are losing?

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:22 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:20 pm

Blackmac wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:15 pm Bellingham isn't much better. Looks lazy as fuck. Hanging wide, waiting for the game to come to him whilst Englands midfield is getting stomped on. On the odd occasion he has got the ball he has given it away to easily.

He's having a poor game but he's repeatedly won the ball defending and beaten several players to make space. There is an absolute gulf between his performance and that of Kane.

He is losing possession too easily otherwise, he's hit a few poor passes, and he's dived a few times. Not a good display. Not lazy, though... And that's why Kane is off and not him.

Just to back this up, the stats have him having more touches of the ball then any other England player, and four more tackles than any other England player.

That is really hard to believe when you compare him to the likes of Saka and Mainoo.

Blackmac wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:25 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:20 pm

Blackmac wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:15 pm Bellingham isn't much better. Looks lazy as fuck. Hanging wide, waiting for the game to come to him whilst Englands midfield is getting stomped on. On the odd occasion he has got the ball he has given it away to easily.

He's having a poor game but he's repeatedly won the ball defending and beaten several players to make space. There is an absolute gulf between his performance and that of Kane.

He is losing possession too easily otherwise, he's hit a few poor passes, and he's dived a few times. Not a good display. Not lazy, though... And that's why Kane is off and not him.

Lazy possibly not the best description but Shearer has just echoed my comment. Not getting involved enough and causing Spain no problems. I expected great things from him but he has basically played one good half of football and scored a scissor kick in the tournament.

He has literally been more involved than any other England player, though. He's just been too inaccurate.

Blackmac wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:27 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:22 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:20 pm

He's having a poor game but he's repeatedly won the ball defending and beaten several players to make space. There is an absolute gulf between his performance and that of Kane.

He is losing possession too easily otherwise, he's hit a few poor passes, and he's dived a few times. Not a good display. Not lazy, though... And that's why Kane is off and not him.

Just to back this up, the stats have him having more touches of the ball then any other England player, and four more tackles than any other England player.

That is really hard to believe when you compare him to the likes of Saka and Mainoo.

Why so? Saka has barely had any impact today and Mainoo hasn't been the one making tackles.

Foden pretty anonymous as well to be fair.

Mainoo off. Not his day today.

Blackmac wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:25 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:20 pm

Blackmac wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:15 pm Bellingham isn't much better. Looks lazy as fuck. Hanging wide, waiting for the game to come to him whilst Englands midfield is getting stomped on. On the odd occasion he has got the ball he has given it away to easily.

He's having a poor game but he's repeatedly won the ball defending and beaten several players to make space. There is an absolute gulf between his performance and that of Kane.

He is losing possession too easily otherwise, he's hit a few poor passes, and he's dived a few times. Not a good display. Not lazy, though... And that's why Kane is off and not him.

Lazy possibly not the best description but Shearer has just echoed my comment. Not getting involved enough and causing Spain no problems. I expected great things from him but he has basically played one good half of football and scored a scissor kick in the tournament.

Bellingham is playing out of position and showed way more than foden has when played out of position. Kane though has been like playing with 10.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:28 pm

Blackmac wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:27 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:22 pm

Just to back this up, the stats have him having more touches of the ball then any other England player, and four more tackles than any other England player.

That is really hard to believe when you compare him to the likes of Saka and Mainoo.

Why so? Saka has barely had any impact today and Mainoo hasn't been the one making tackles.

We can agree to disagree but for a guy being touted as potentially the best player in the world after his season with Madrid he has rarely been anywhere near England's best player.

That was awful by Saka, Palmer wins the ball back in a dangerous area and Saka just fucks it up

Blackmac wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:30 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:28 pm

Blackmac wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:27 pm

That is really hard to believe when you compare him to the likes of Saka and Mainoo.

Why so? Saka has barely had any impact today and Mainoo hasn't been the one making tackles.

We can agree to disagree but for a guy being touted as potentially the best player in the world after his season with Madrid he has rarely been anywhere near England's best player.

I don't disagree with that at all.

petej wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:29 pm

Blackmac wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:25 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:20 pm

He's having a poor game but he's repeatedly won the ball defending and beaten several players to make space. There is an absolute gulf between his performance and that of Kane.

He is losing possession too easily otherwise, he's hit a few poor passes, and he's dived a few times. Not a good display. Not lazy, though... And that's why Kane is off and not him.

Lazy possibly not the best description but Shearer has just echoed my comment. Not getting involved enough and causing Spain no problems. I expected great things from him but he has basically played one good half of football and scored a scissor kick in the tournament.

Bellingham is playing out of position and showed way more than foden has when played out of position. Kane though has been like playing with 10.

Christ, I'm not saying he is as bad as Kane, just very disappointing for the obvious talent he has.

That's better! Palmer is so good

That's a great assist under pressure by whoever's in the 10 shirt, too

I'm supporting England by the way. I like to see them getting the odd humiliation but always back them when push comes to shove.

JM2K6 wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:32 pm That's a great assist under pressure by whoever's in the 10 shirt, too

His ears must have been burning.