NPR

stemoc wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:26 am forget Jordan he is gone this year... whats lacking in the team is a PILFER..NZ are in a situation Australia was in a few years back where their best pilfer was benched for someone who only started at 7 cause he was captain and their best 7 either benched or moved to 8....what u need is either kirifi, boshier or papali at 7.. not Cane, drop him as captain and you won't even need him there.... Matera showed today why if you wear the captains armband, you must act like the captain..the best backrow is frizell, savea and sotutu, but that won't be happening as long as you keep dragging cane around.. he is OK.. but he is not captain level OK...i know he seems to be playing well but mind you, Matt Todd played better and he was never captain.

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:18 am

Trapper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:12 am

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:04 am

Our entire pack got beasted. That starts in the front row, not in the back row.

Good to know, any suggestions, or you just leaving that here?

Sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that starting Sotutu, Boshier and Akira Ioane is going to turn things around?

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:27 am One of the worst AB performances I have seen.

We are becoming used to a lack of direction and creativity from Ian Foster coached sides.

Now they can't even execute the basics.

There is no doubt in my mind the best rugby side in NZ right now is actually the Crusaders.

Trapper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:32 am

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:18 am

Trapper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:12 am

Good to know, any suggestions, or you just leaving that here?

Sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that starting Sotutu, Boshier and Akira Ioane is going to turn things around?

Unfortunately, we’ll never know. I would like to see a 7 with mobility that can get around the park and pilfer ball, that would be Ardie as he’s in the squad and has experience and has played well there. I’d like to see a big bruising 8 with the skills for the job and for me, that’s Sotutu. And if Cane has to play he should be at 6 because that’s the role he is suited to imo but I really don’t think he is the answer there either but as I said Akira looked good there last week but we’ll never know because Cane is nailed in at 7. What I do know is that Frizell/Cane/ Savea doesn’t work.

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:36 am

Trapper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:32 am

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:18 am

Sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that starting Sotutu, Boshier and Akira Ioane is going to turn things around?

Unfortunately, we’ll never know. I would like to see a 7 with mobility that can get around the park and pilfer ball, that would be Ardie as he’s in the squad and has experience and has played well there. I’d like to see a big bruising 8 with the skills for the job and for me, that’s Sotutu. And if Cane has to play he should be at 6 because that’s the role he is suited to imo but I really don’t think he is the answer there either but as I said Akira looked good there last week but we’ll never know because Cane is nailed in at 7. What I do know is that Frizell/Cane/ Savea doesn’t work.

Frizzell and Sotutu got manhandled out there by the Argie boys. They are not the answer.

Trapper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:32 am

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:18 am

Trapper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:12 am

Good to know, any suggestions, or you just leaving that here?

Sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that starting Sotutu, Boshier and Akira Ioane is going to turn things around?

Unfortunately, we’ll never know. I would like to see a 7 with mobility that can get around the park and pilfer ball, that would be Ardie as he’s in the squad and has experience and has played well there. I’d like to see a big bruising 8 with the skills for the job and for me, that’s Sotutu. And if Cane has to play he should be at 6 because that’s the role he is suited to imo but I really don’t think he is the answer there either but as I said Akira looked good there last week but we’ll never know because Cane is nailed in at 7. What I do know is that Frizell/Cane/ Savea doesn’t work.

Trapper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:38 am

Not_Couch wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:36 am

Trapper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:32 am

Unfortunately, we’ll never know. I would like to see a 7 with mobility that can get around the park and pilfer ball, that would be Ardie as he’s in the squad and has experience and has played well there. I’d like to see a big bruising 8 with the skills for the job and for me, that’s Sotutu. And if Cane has to play he should be at 6 because that’s the role he is suited to imo but I really don’t think he is the answer there either but as I said Akira looked good there last week but we’ll never know because Cane is nailed in at 7. What I do know is that Frizell/Cane/ Savea doesn’t work.

Frizzell and Sotutu got manhandled out there by the Argie boys. They are not the answer.

They all got manhandled, what do you suggest? Or do you think we should keep going with what we have?
Sotutu made more meters off the back of the scrum with 2 runs than Ardie made all day. I already said Frizell is not the answer.

mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:45 am We can shuffle deckchairs all we want, but the truth right now is that our tight-five is average and filled with rookies.

In 5 tests we've introduced Va'i, Hodgman, Aumua, Lomax to test footy and reintroduced big Karl. Coles looks more interested in starting fights than playing rugby, Ofa went and got himself banned, Moody was for some reason flogged for 72 minutes after a long layoff, and Tuipolotu still isn't dominating physically at test level. Whitelock was our best today IMO but he can't carry everything himself.

Our tight five is nowhere near world class right now, and we can no longer fall back on Brodie to paper over the cracks with individual excellence. We're a far, far cry from the days of peak Moody/Coles/Franks/Retallick/Whitelock.

Carter's Choice wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:49 am

mrbrownstone wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:45 am We can shuffle deckchairs all we want, but the truth right now is that our tight-five is average and filled with rookies.

In 5 tests we've introduced Va'i, Hodgman, Aumua, Lomax to test footy and reintroduced big Karl. Coles looks more interested in starting fights than playing rugby, Ofa went and got himself banned, Moody was for some reason flogged for 72 minutes after a long layoff, and Tuipolotu still isn't dominating physically at test level. Whitelock was our best today IMO but he can't carry everything himself.

Our tight five is nowhere near world class right now, and we can no longer fall back on Brodie to paper over the cracks with individual excellence. We're a far, far cry from the days of peak Moody/Coles/Franks/Retallick/Whitelock.

It's easy to blame our tight five for everything, but Moody, Coles, Taylor, Tu'ungfasi and Tuipulotu have all played well this year. The reality is our entire team is playing worse than the sum of its parts.

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:09 am Tuipolotu started at lock in Chicago for the first loss to Ireland . Get out of the fucking rugby team you lazy excuse for a lock.

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:13 am Dour demeanour in coaching box. Dour on the field.

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:19 am

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:13 am Dour demeanour in coaching box. Dour on the field.

Ah you know...disappointed would be the word....wanted to get rid of the ill discipline...well done Argentina...zzzzzz

Fuck off Foster you absolute fraudulent cunt.

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:24 am Reckon Argentina not being given enough credit too. They were epic tbf.

Trapper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:32 am

Gumboot wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:18 am

Trapper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:12 am

Good to know, any suggestions, or you just leaving that here?

Sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that starting Sotutu, Boshier and Akira Ioane is going to turn things around?

Unfortunately, we’ll never know. I would like to see a 7 with mobility that can get around the park and pilfer ball, that would be Ardie as he’s in the squad and has experience and has played well there. I’d like to see a big bruising 8 with the skills for the job and for me, that’s Sotutu. And if Cane has to play he should be at 6 because that’s the role he is suited to imo but I really don’t think he is the answer there either but as I said Akira looked good there last week but we’ll never know because Cane is nailed in at 7. What I do know is that Frizell/Cane/ Savea doesn’t work.

Wild Beef wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:24 am Reckon Argentina not being given enough credit too. They were epic tbf.

Lemoentjie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:57 am One of the more uncomfortable truths that ABs fans might have to face is just that... their players aren't really that good anymore.

Which of their starting XV today is the best player in the world in their position? I'd say Goodhue, and that's it. Retallick would be there if he was playing.

In 2011 or 2015, there's at least 7-8 who are the best in the world in their position. Even having an amazing coach can't stop that change.

ScarfaceClaw wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:43 am Coles you absolute twat. What’s with the slap at the penalty.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:41 am Fuck me, that was something.

I'll preface this by saying I thought this would be a total waste of time, a completely untested Argentina side being put to the sword by a battle-hardened All Blacks team. Obviously that was completely wrong.

That was one of the dumbest NZ performances I can remember seeing.

Sometimes you end up playing against a physical team who are getting the best of most of the contact situations. It happens. It's fairly rare for it to happen to NZ, but it happens nonetheless. A team like Argentina will feed off the energy of their defensive game and big carries. The last thing you want to do is keep giving them that energy. You need to starve them - starve them of the opportunity to make those big tackles, starve them of the freedom to play with the ball, starve them of momentum. Instead, NZ just played straight into their hands for virtually the entire game.

Right from the start NZ were getting smashed when they had the ball, and Argentina were making yards after contact on virtually every carry. NZ needed their front 5 to man up, which they didn't (no, Dane Coles, trying to pick a fight every couple of minutes is not what I mean) and the Big Hitters like Cane and Frizzell needed to put some momentum-halting hits in, which they couldn't. Add to that the backrow getting minced at the breakdown and this was pretty clearly a bad time for the ABs in the first half. So they changed things up - after getting smashed a few times, BB stepped in at 10 and did exactly the right thing, putting up a bomb for his brother to contest and causing some panic in the Argentinian defence. That worked quite well, so they didn't bother to do it again until the game was lost.

Seriously, I don't know what the fuck that team was thinking, but the ABs primary method of attack was a one-out pass to a single isolated forward standing at 10 and taking the ball at walking pace and getting lined up by a full steam Argentinian defence, who were very keen to smash everything that moved - one low, one high - and predictably getting mullered. Sometimes it was a back taking the pain instead. Plan A was clearly not working, so they just tried Plan A some more, and then a bit more after that. It's hard to win games of rugby when you're going backwards, but even harder if you just keep trying to do a failed tactic over and over and over.

I have criticisms of individuals - Frizzell was anonymous in defence, Savea was a ghost in general, Cane wasn't used on tight carries until it was too late, made none of his crash-test-dummy hits, and was comfortably beaten at the breakdown, the entire front 5 should return their match fee, Mo'unga's decision making, particularly about when to run and when to kick was very poor (and his kick dead was a killer), etc etc - but I think the tactics were the real villain here.

Unsupported forwards lumbering up into a meat grinder defence is not a good look; either pick and go up the guts to tie defenders in, or go back to the kicking game - short to make the defence think twice about steaming up, long for territory and let your defence make some tackles on smaller players for once, - use the maul more, tire the opposition defenders out, SUPPORT YOUR FUCKING BALL CARRIERS, etc. I expect this sort of rigidity of thinking from sides like England, not the All Blacks.

Still, well done Argentina. Funny how the discipline improves when the world's dirtiest player isn't playing, but also they had a fairly simple approach, executed it brilliantly, won all the important battles (set piece, breakdown, gain line) and frankly battered the All Blacks despite not having played together for a year. Huge credit to them. Now don't make it a one-off ambush performance.