NPR

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:57 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:45 am good point, the figures from Hamas are the reliable ones

Tilly Orifice wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:54 am

if you accept that Israeli strikes are causing thousands of civilian casualties, then it's in the interests of Hamas to be seen to be reporting what's happening reliably.
And it's in Israel's interest to lie.

great logic here

You two are very tedious. Absolutely no one is saying that, as you know.

Everyone is laughing at you blindly believing everything coming coming out of Israel

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:41 am Actually, you know what, I’m taking a little break from this thread today.

Hope you guys have a good day! All of you !

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:00 am

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:57 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:45 am good point, the figures from Hamas are the reliable ones



great logic here

You two are very tedious. Absolutely no one is saying that, as you know.

Everyone is laughing at you blindly believing everything coming coming out of Israel

another valuable contribution to this thread from you

I've posted this link regarding casualty figures previously and agree with their conclusion

Spoiler

Show

None of the analysis presented here diminishes the
scale of the human tragedy in Gaza since Hamas
sparked the war with Israel in October 2023. It is
unprecedented for residents of the coastal enclave.
By embedding military facilities within civilian
areas, Hamas further endangers the lives of the
Gaza residents it purportedly defends, and by
failing to distinguish between civilians and
combatants, it seeks to obscure its military losses
and magnify civilian deaths. The use of human
shields thus presents an advantage on the battlefield
and in the fight for public opinion.
Tracking deaths constitutes a discrete challenge
within the Hamas-Israel war. Doing so in a battlefield
environment like Gaza is highly difficult, and the
actual toll is often only known well after hostilities
end, or else remains permanently unclear.64 In the
current war, many more Palestinians will be laid to
rest only after the fighting stops. Moreover, the GMO
claims that as of December 31, more than 7,000
Gazans were trapped under the rubble of collapsed
buildings,65 although it is not clear if this list is
updated as bodies are recovered or people rescued.
No one knows how many Gaza militants are buried
in the tunnels or how many people were interred
during mass burials.66
Even in Israel, a country with high institutional
capacity and a developed and professional masscasualty response infrastructure, bodies were
still being recovered more than a month after the
October 7 attacks, the dead have only been slowly
identified, and the death toll was revised down on
November 11, from around 1,400 to about 1,200.67
Expecting significant precision or accuracy in death
tolls in a war zone, where estimates often range in
the tens of thousands, is a fool’s errand. What can
be said for certain is that Hamas-produced statistics
are inconsistent, imprecise, and appear to have been
systematically manipulated to downplay the number
of militants killed and to exaggerate the proportion
of noncombatants confirmed as dead. The Gaza
Health Ministry and GMO figures are cited widely,
in many cases without caveats, often to claim that
Israel is engaging in indiscriminate bombardment
or attempted genocide, primarily targeting women
and children. Even in more nuanced analyses, such
as a Haaretz article examining only the air campaign,
the question of underreporting of fighters’ deaths
is simply not addressed, obscuring an essential
element of the civilian-combatant fatality ratio.68
Without a relatively accurate sense of civilian versus
combatant deaths, one cannot make definitive
judgments about the nature of Israel’s military
campaign.

Tilly Orifice wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 11:14 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:00 am

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:57 am

You two are very tedious. Absolutely no one is saying that, as you know.

Everyone is laughing at you blindly believing everything coming coming out of Israel

another valuable contribution to this thread from you

I've posted this link regarding casualty figures previously and agree with their conclusion

Spoiler

Show

None of the analysis presented here diminishes the
scale of the human tragedy in Gaza since Hamas
sparked the war with Israel in October 2023. It is
unprecedented for residents of the coastal enclave.
By embedding military facilities within civilian
areas, Hamas further endangers the lives of the
Gaza residents it purportedly defends, and by
failing to distinguish between civilians and
combatants, it seeks to obscure its military losses
and magnify civilian deaths. The use of human
shields thus presents an advantage on the battlefield
and in the fight for public opinion.
Tracking deaths constitutes a discrete challenge
within the Hamas-Israel war. Doing so in a battlefield
environment like Gaza is highly difficult, and the
actual toll is often only known well after hostilities
end, or else remains permanently unclear.64 In the
current war, many more Palestinians will be laid to
rest only after the fighting stops. Moreover, the GMO
claims that as of December 31, more than 7,000
Gazans were trapped under the rubble of collapsed
buildings,65 although it is not clear if this list is
updated as bodies are recovered or people rescued.
No one knows how many Gaza militants are buried
in the tunnels or how many people were interred
during mass burials.66
Even in Israel, a country with high institutional
capacity and a developed and professional masscasualty response infrastructure, bodies were
still being recovered more than a month after the
October 7 attacks, the dead have only been slowly
identified, and the death toll was revised down on
November 11, from around 1,400 to about 1,200.67
Expecting significant precision or accuracy in death
tolls in a war zone, where estimates often range in
the tens of thousands, is a fool’s errand. What can
be said for certain is that Hamas-produced statistics
are inconsistent, imprecise, and appear to have been
systematically manipulated to downplay the number
of militants killed and to exaggerate the proportion
of noncombatants confirmed as dead. The Gaza
Health Ministry and GMO figures are cited widely,
in many cases without caveats, often to claim that
Israel is engaging in indiscriminate bombardment
or attempted genocide, primarily targeting women
and children. Even in more nuanced analyses, such
as a Haaretz article examining only the air campaign,
the question of underreporting of fighters’ deaths
is simply not addressed, obscuring an essential
element of the civilian-combatant fatality ratio.68
Without a relatively accurate sense of civilian versus
combatant deaths, one cannot make definitive
judgments about the nature of Israel’s military
campaign.

There are some excellent observations in that link, though I'd like to know what evidence there is that the Gaza authorities systematically distort the casualty figures. Particularly since there seems reason to suspect that Israel would mark any dead adult Palestinian as a Hamas fighter. I mean you would, wouldn't you? If there was any doubt.

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:37 pm

Tilly Orifice wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 11:14 am

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:00 am
another valuable contribution to this thread from you

I've posted this link regarding casualty figures previously and agree with their conclusion

Spoiler

Show

None of the analysis presented here diminishes the
scale of the human tragedy in Gaza since Hamas
sparked the war with Israel in October 2023. It is
unprecedented for residents of the coastal enclave.
By embedding military facilities within civilian
areas, Hamas further endangers the lives of the
Gaza residents it purportedly defends, and by
failing to distinguish between civilians and
combatants, it seeks to obscure its military losses
and magnify civilian deaths. The use of human
shields thus presents an advantage on the battlefield
and in the fight for public opinion.
Tracking deaths constitutes a discrete challenge
within the Hamas-Israel war. Doing so in a battlefield
environment like Gaza is highly difficult, and the
actual toll is often only known well after hostilities
end, or else remains permanently unclear.64 In the
current war, many more Palestinians will be laid to
rest only after the fighting stops. Moreover, the GMO
claims that as of December 31, more than 7,000
Gazans were trapped under the rubble of collapsed
buildings,65 although it is not clear if this list is
updated as bodies are recovered or people rescued.
No one knows how many Gaza militants are buried
in the tunnels or how many people were interred
during mass burials.66
Even in Israel, a country with high institutional
capacity and a developed and professional masscasualty response infrastructure, bodies were
still being recovered more than a month after the
October 7 attacks, the dead have only been slowly
identified, and the death toll was revised down on
November 11, from around 1,400 to about 1,200.67
Expecting significant precision or accuracy in death
tolls in a war zone, where estimates often range in
the tens of thousands, is a fool’s errand. What can
be said for certain is that Hamas-produced statistics
are inconsistent, imprecise, and appear to have been
systematically manipulated to downplay the number
of militants killed and to exaggerate the proportion
of noncombatants confirmed as dead. The Gaza
Health Ministry and GMO figures are cited widely,
in many cases without caveats, often to claim that
Israel is engaging in indiscriminate bombardment
or attempted genocide, primarily targeting women
and children. Even in more nuanced analyses, such
as a Haaretz article examining only the air campaign,
the question of underreporting of fighters’ deaths
is simply not addressed, obscuring an essential
element of the civilian-combatant fatality ratio.68
Without a relatively accurate sense of civilian versus
combatant deaths, one cannot make definitive
judgments about the nature of Israel’s military
campaign.

There are some excellent observations in that link, though I'd like to know what evidence there is that the Gaza authorities systematically distort the casualty figures. Particularly since there seems reason to suspect that Israel would mark any dead adult Palestinian as a Hamas fighter. I mean you would, wouldn't you? If there was any doubt.

it's in the article i posted

here it is again

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/med ... ion=inline

if you disagree with the analysis, fair enough, I'm not in a position to offer a peer review on it other than saying it looks credible to me

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:18 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:41 am Actually, you know what, I’m taking a little break from this thread today.

Hope you guys have a good day! All of you !

Probably for the best, any actual discussion finished about thirty pages ago and it’s been mostly poster making snide remarks at other posters who’ve they’ve had previous with, coupled with lame insults and making points that are ignored if they don’t come from someone who’s on your side and thus fit with your preconceived views

C69 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 3:37 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:18 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:41 am Actually, you know what, I’m taking a little break from this thread today.

Hope you guys have a good day! All of you !

Probably for the best, any actual discussion finished about thirty pages ago and it’s been mostly poster making snide remarks at other posters who’ve they’ve had previous with, coupled with lame insults and making points that are ignored if they don’t come from someone who’s on your side and thus fit with your preconceived views

The vile racism and class based insults have been pretty disgusting. YMX certainly has let himself down badly.

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:41 am Actually, you know what, I’m taking a little break from this thread today.

Hope you guys have a good day! All of you !

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:18 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:41 am Actually, you know what, I’m taking a little break from this thread today.

Hope you guys have a good day! All of you !

Probably for the best, any actual discussion finished about thirty pages ago and it’s been mostly poster making snide remarks at other posters who’ve they’ve had previous with, coupled with lame insults and making points that are ignored if they don’t come from someone who’s on your side and thus fit with your preconceived views

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:22 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:18 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:41 am Actually, you know what, I’m taking a little break from this thread today.

Hope you guys have a good day! All of you !

Probably for the best, any actual discussion finished about thirty pages ago and it’s been mostly poster making snide remarks at other posters who’ve they’ve had previous with, coupled with lame insults and making points that are ignored if they don’t come from someone who’s on your side and thus fit with your preconceived views

Remarkable

Tilly Orifice wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:52 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:37 pm

Tilly Orifice wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 11:14 am

There are some excellent observations in that link, though I'd like to know what evidence there is that the Gaza authorities systematically distort the casualty figures. Particularly since there seems reason to suspect that Israel would mark any dead adult Palestinian as a Hamas fighter. I mean you would, wouldn't you? If there was any doubt.

it's in the article i posted

here it is again

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/med ... ion=inline

if you disagree with the analysis, fair enough, I'm not in a position to offer a peer review on it other than saying it looks credible to me

That's an honest conclusion. I also don't feel qualified to offer much of a critique, though I will have a go at examining the claims there. Although you say it looks credible, I can't help noticing that the Washington Institute seems to have strong ties to the Israeli Government and AIPAC, so I'm not going to accept their analysis uncritically; and no other analysis of the casualty figures that I've seen agrees with their conclusions. On the other hand other analyses I've seen have been rather more journalistic, so we'll see.

Slick wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:22 pm

Calculon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:18 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:41 am Actually, you know what, I’m taking a little break from this thread today.

Hope you guys have a good day! All of you !

Probably for the best, any actual discussion finished about thirty pages ago and it’s been mostly poster making snide remarks at other posters who’ve they’ve had previous with, coupled with lame insults and making points that are ignored if they don’t come from someone who’s on your side and thus fit with your preconceived views

Remarkable

Tilly Orifice wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:17 am A couple of examples:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what ... death-toll

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanc ... 7/fulltext

You'll note that these don't address the statistical anomalies that the report you provided purports to find, though to be honest I'm not convinced that these are a real thing anyway. The consensus seems to be that under difficult conditions the Gaza authorities are doing a pretty good job of keeping track of the casualties, as apparently they have a history of doing. I'm sure there are minor inaccuracies, there might even be systemic inaccuracies due to the methods of counting. But there doesn't seem to be any smoking gun for deliberate systematic distortion, and I'd suggest that the sheer scale of the devastation is the real story, and that sources sympathetic to Israel are essentially trying to distract attention from a vast tragedy for nefarious purposes.

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:35 am One of the most watched channels in Israel

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:21 am

Tilly Orifice wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:17 am A couple of examples:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what ... death-toll

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanc ... 7/fulltext

You'll note that these don't address the statistical anomalies that the report you provided purports to find, though to be honest I'm not convinced that these are a real thing anyway. The consensus seems to be that under difficult conditions the Gaza authorities are doing a pretty good job of keeping track of the casualties, as apparently they have a history of doing. I'm sure there are minor inaccuracies, there might even be systemic inaccuracies due to the methods of counting. But there doesn't seem to be any smoking gun for deliberate systematic distortion, and I'd suggest that the sheer scale of the devastation is the real story, and that sources sympathetic to Israel are essentially trying to distract attention from a vast tragedy for nefarious purposes.

Thanks for that. I guess my issue is that even if the Hamas figures are accurate we still don't know the breakdown in terms of civilian deaths versus combatants, people who died of natural cause, or killed by Israeli actions or killed by Hamas like in that hospital strike

Spoiler

Show

But an outlier is the ministry’s death toll from an explosion at al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza City in mid-October.

There were conflicting accusations of who was responsible, with Hamas officials blaming an Israeli airstrike and Israel saying it was caused by a an errant rocket launched by Palestinian militants. U.S. and French intelligence services also concluded it was likely caused by a misfired rocket. An AP analysis of video, photos and satellite imagery, as well as consultation with experts, showed the cause was likely a rocket launched from Palestinian territory that misfired and crashed. However, a definitive conclusion couldn’t be reached.

There have also been conflicting accounts of the explosion’s death toll. Within an hour, Gaza’s ministry reported 500 Palestinians killed, then lowered that to 471 the next day.

or just shot by Hamas for whatever reason. I accept Hamas figures from past conflicts are pretty accurate, but this war is on a completely different scale, and i doubt we will get anything like as accurate numbers for this one.

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:40 pm The met police are an utter disgrace



Original


Edit: fixed img size

yermum wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:36 am
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-foo ... h-13120104

the 13 minute video on here certainly puts a different slant on the whole situation.

the fella was obviously looking to cause a breach of the peace for his own agenda

I thought the copper showed remarkable restraint.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:48 am

yermum wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:36 am
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-foo ... h-13120104

the 13 minute video on here certainly puts a different slant on the whole situation.

the fella was obviously looking to cause a breach of the peace for his own agenda

I thought the copper showed remarkable restraint.

I could only stomach about 4 minutes of that - It looks fairly obvious to me that he's trying to provoke the police there.


It seems to me that those complaining about the Met on this issue were pretty quiet on the subject of gang profiling and the institutional racism reports.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:05 am

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:57 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:54 pm


The lies are being caught out already.

WaPo saying the hospital has already been hit by Israeli weapons. Who do they think they're kidding? They've been bombing civilian infrastructure the last two weeks and they think we'll believe this was a Hamas malfunction? Just stupid.

Busted.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:14 pm

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:00 pm

I often find people who destroy a hospital and kill hundreds admit to it readily.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:42 am

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 9:51 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 9:36 pm Israel: you guys might want to evacuate hospitals, we might bomb them.

Hospital is bombed.

Israel: wasn't us.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/worl ... -gaza.html

To what end would Israel purposefully bomb a hospital it knew to be in use? There is absolutely no logical operational reason for them to do that. The evacuation order was likely in advance of a ground invasion to clear the ground (albeit impossibly impractical for the hospitals themselves)

Could they have bombed it in error? Sure, and the result is the same ultimately. Potentially involving criminal recklessness.

That said, there's ordinance flying about from both sides here, so whilst clearly more fingers will be pointed at Israel it's not a given.

Yeah it's been a stated aim to use weapons for damage not accuracy. When you're bombing cities for damage you're targeting civilians really.

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 9:54 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:05 am

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:57 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:54 pm


The lies are being caught out already.

WaPo saying the hospital has already been hit by Israeli weapons. Who do they think they're kidding? They've been bombing civilian infrastructure the last two weeks and they think we'll believe this was a Hamas malfunction? Just stupid.

Busted.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:42 am

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 9:51 pm

To what end would Israel purposefully bomb a hospital it knew to be in use? There is absolutely no logical operational reason for them to do that. The evacuation order was likely in advance of a ground invasion to clear the ground (albeit impossibly impractical for the hospitals themselves)

Could they have bombed it in error? Sure, and the result is the same ultimately. Potentially involving criminal recklessness.

That said, there's ordinance flying about from both sides here, so whilst clearly more fingers will be pointed at Israel it's not a given.

Yeah it's been a stated aim to use weapons for damage not accuracy. When you're bombing cities for damage you're targeting civilians really.

are you still convinced that Israel bombed the hospital?

petej wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:21 pm

goeagles wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:13 pm I'm sure there will be deep introspection from everyone who immediately jumped all over the Israel bombs hospital and kills 500 civilians story, right? Right?

Doubtful because if they were capable of such introspection they wouldn't have jumped all over the original reports.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:01 pm For those criticising the Israeli response, I'm curious as to how people think they should react.
I'll fully admit to not being that well informed about this situation but I do see the Palestinians as a group of people who have facilitated and aligned themselves to a terrorist organisation that doesn't give a flying fuck about them and only exists for the sole purpose of killing Israelis. When it does so it then seems quite happy to use them as a human shield in order to prevent the obvious repercussions. It's all well and good saying that the average Palestinian has no say in the matter but there has been plenty of examples over the years of a large proportion of them revelling in the various atrocities committed in their name.
It easy enough for people not directly involved to tell Israel to turn the other cheek but if their grandkid had been beheaded or their daughter raped or set on fire I'm bloody sure they wouldn't be so compassionate and they, like the Israelis, would want severe retribution.

Calculon wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 10:03 am sums it up really

petej wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:21 pm

goeagles wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:13 pm I'm sure there will be deep introspection from everyone who immediately jumped all over the Israel bombs hospital and kills 500 civilians story, right? Right?

Doubtful because if they were capable of such introspection they wouldn't have jumped all over the original reports.

some quality posts from earlier in the thread

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:01 pm For those criticising the Israeli response, I'm curious as to how people think they should react.
I'll fully admit to not being that well informed about this situation but I do see the Palestinians as a group of people who have facilitated and aligned themselves to a terrorist organisation that doesn't give a flying fuck about them and only exists for the sole purpose of killing Israelis. When it does so it then seems quite happy to use them as a human shield in order to prevent the obvious repercussions. It's all well and good saying that the average Palestinian has no say in the matter but there has been plenty of examples over the years of a large proportion of them revelling in the various atrocities committed in their name.
It easy enough for people not directly involved to tell Israel to turn the other cheek but if their grandkid had been beheaded or their daughter raped or set on fire I'm bloody sure they wouldn't be so compassionate and they, like the Israelis, would want severe retribution.

epwc wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:45 pm Which side do you trust?

dpedin wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 2:59 pm That's a bit like asking me which testicle I want cut off!

yermum wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:36 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:40 pm The met police are an utter disgrace



Original


Edit: fixed img size

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-foo ... h-13120104

the 13 minute video on here certainly puts a different slant on the whole situation.

the fella was obviously looking to cause a breach of the peace for his own agenda

I thought the copper showed remarkable restraint.

Uncle fester wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:51 pm Maybe the sustained level of collective punishment caused him to review his opinion?

When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do, sir?

petej wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 4:07 pmNeither Israel nor the surrounding nations in reality give a shit about the Palestinians.