NPR

I wonder how long she will leave it to announce her separation and divorce.

Bring on an election, I say

tc27 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:22 am I thought she might go after her special conference as it looked like she would not be able to get her own party to agree with her Independence 'defacto' general election strategy.

So either she is pre-empting that now inevitable defeat - or the loan from her husband or the 'woven into accounts' 600k is about to catch up with her.

Personally whilst I concede she was the best communicator around for some years her primary political objective was regressive and would have embroiled us in years of economic and political turmoil that would have made Brexit look like a small bump. She was also pretty crap at policy and getting complex stuff done IMO.

This?

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:42 am Bring on an election, I say

The SNP leadership election is going to be entertaining.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:42 am Bring on an election, I say

Ironically the favourite to take over as FM lost his Westminster seat to said tosspot.

tc27 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:50 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:42 am Bring on an election, I say

The SNP leadership election is going to be entertaining.

Forbes will be that high based solely on her opposition to the GR bill. Would be a surprise to see the MSPs vote for her as she was the one to abstain but not sure how the leadership is decided.

Think Forbes religious views will rule her out.

I think its either Swinney or Robertson realistically.

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:48 am

tc27 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 10:22 am I thought she might go after her special conference as it looked like she would not be able to get her own party to agree with her Independence 'defacto' general election strategy.

So either she is pre-empting that now inevitable defeat - or the loan from her husband or the 'woven into accounts' 600k is about to catch up with her.

Personally whilst I concede she was the best communicator around for some years her primary political objective was regressive and would have embroiled us in years of economic and political turmoil that would have made Brexit look like a small bump. She was also pretty crap at policy and getting complex stuff done IMO.

This?

Yeah, good post. I can't be arsed finding the post, but my contact in the SG said that Sturgeon knew the Supreme Court challenge was doomed and would use it as a way of saying " I've taken things as far as I've can" and resign. The disaster of the Gender recognition bill, the looming disaster of the container return scheme, the strikes and the scandals simmering in the background have made that inevitable.

The "disaster" that was the GRA brought Scotland into line with countries line Ireland FFS, it made changing your birth certificate easier.

I've been waiting for the pearl-clutchers on the Gender thread to mention the lassie who was murdered at the weekend.

Not a fucking peep.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:04 am The "disaster" that was the GRA brought Scotland into line with countries line Ireland FFS, it made changing your birth certificate easier.

I've been waiting for the pearl-clutchers on the Gender thread to mention the lassie who was murdered at the weekend.

Not a fucking peep.

Not sure the relevance of your second paragraph to this thread, or that thread to be honest, but you can't argue that GRA hasn't been a personal disaster for Sturgeon.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:07 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:04 am The "disaster" that was the GRA brought Scotland into line with countries line Ireland FFS, it made changing your birth certificate easier.

I've been waiting for the pearl-clutchers on the Gender thread to mention the lassie who was murdered at the weekend.

Not a fucking peep.

Not sure the relevance of your second paragraph to this thread, or that thread to be honest, but you can't argue that GRA hasn't been a personal disaster for Sturgeon.

What does the Gender Recognition Reform Bill actually mean in real day to day terms?

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:11 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:07 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:04 am The "disaster" that was the GRA brought Scotland into line with countries line Ireland FFS, it made changing your birth certificate easier.

I've been waiting for the pearl-clutchers on the Gender thread to mention the lassie who was murdered at the weekend.

Not a fucking peep.

Not sure the relevance of your second paragraph to this thread, or that thread to be honest, but you can't argue that GRA hasn't been a personal disaster for Sturgeon.

What does the Gender Recognition Reform Bill actually mean in real day to day terms?

In day to day terms, it means people being gaslit about some fairly fundamental beliefs. Not much practical significance, but it's really annoying.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:11 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:07 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:04 am The "disaster" that was the GRA brought Scotland into line with countries line Ireland FFS, it made changing your birth certificate easier.

I've been waiting for the pearl-clutchers on the Gender thread to mention the lassie who was murdered at the weekend.

Not a fucking peep.

Not sure the relevance of your second paragraph to this thread, or that thread to be honest, but you can't argue that GRA hasn't been a personal disaster for Sturgeon.

What does the Gender Recognition Reform Bill actually mean in real day to day terms?

As I've said before it doesn't affect me in one bit and I'm completely ambivalent to it but that's her big problem. She chose to die on a hill that 99% of people couldn't care less about but the other 1% were going to attack relentlessly.

robmatic wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:17 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:11 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:07 am

Not sure the relevance of your second paragraph to this thread, or that thread to be honest, but you can't argue that GRA hasn't been a personal disaster for Sturgeon.

What does the Gender Recognition Reform Bill actually mean in real day to day terms?

In day to day terms, it means people being gaslit about some fairly fundamental beliefs. Not much practical significance, but it's really annoying.

This is a subject I care about, perhaps you'd be kind enough to explain who is gaslighting who and what beliefs are fundamentalist in this context?

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:17 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:11 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:07 am

Not sure the relevance of your second paragraph to this thread, or that thread to be honest, but you can't argue that GRA hasn't been a personal disaster for Sturgeon.

What does the Gender Recognition Reform Bill actually mean in real day to day terms?

As I've said before it doesn't affect me in one bit and I'm completely ambivalent to it but that's her big problem. She chose to die on a hill that 99% of people couldn't care less about but the other 1% were going to attack relentlessly.

So the 1% who attack this change in how to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate are driving the elected FM out of office, is that what you are saying?

Dull speech, can't listen to any more of that

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:22 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:17 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:11 am


What does the Gender Recognition Reform Bill actually mean in real day to day terms?

As I've said before it doesn't affect me in one bit and I'm completely ambivalent to it but that's her big problem. She chose to die on a hill that 99% of people couldn't care less about but the other 1% were going to attack relentlessly.

So the 1% who attack this change in how to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate are driving the elected FM out of office, is that what you are saying?

Nope that's not what I'm saying but it's the straw that broke the camels back. And whilst the 99% didn't care entirely they probably cared enough that the SG appeared keener to drive minority policies, green disasters and independence than spend time dealing with issues that affect them.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:17 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:11 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:07 am

Not sure the relevance of your second paragraph to this thread, or that thread to be honest, but you can't argue that GRA hasn't been a personal disaster for Sturgeon.

What does the Gender Recognition Reform Bill actually mean in real day to day terms?

As I've said before it doesn't affect me in one bit and I'm completely ambivalent to it but that's her big problem. She chose to die on a hill that 99% of people couldn't care less about but the other 1% were going to attack relentlessly.

People should be allowed to live as they want which is a good thing. The complete lack of planning for say a male rapist changing gender during the legal process and leaving the issue initially at the doors of the prison system was completely avoidable and shone a light on an imperfect bill that should have been closer to perfect than it is.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:25 am Dull speech, can't listen to any more of that

IMO self indulgent and as usual making several unfounded claims - latest poll puts support for 'yes' further behind than 2014.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:25 am Dull speech, can't listen to any more of that

Yeah, but the irony of her saying that her personal reputation affects people's perception of her issues is very funny.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:28 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:25 am Dull speech, can't listen to any more of that

Yeah, but the irony of her saying that her personal reputation affects people's perception of her issues is very funny.

It is true to an extent but there a people on all sides who refuse debate due to preconceptions rather than only the anti-Sturgeon view point.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:26 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:22 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:17 am

As I've said before it doesn't affect me in one bit and I'm completely ambivalent to it but that's her big problem. She chose to die on a hill that 99% of people couldn't care less about but the other 1% were going to attack relentlessly.

So the 1% who attack this change in how to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate are driving the elected FM out of office, is that what you are saying?

Nope that's not what I'm saying but it's the straw that broke the camels back. And whilst the 99% didn't care entirely they probably cared enough that the SG appeared keener to drive minority policies, green disasters and independence than spend time dealing with issues that affect them.

The SNP still lead the polls by a clear 17% at 44% as of 26th of January. That may well change over the next few weeks, but after 8 years in Government the polling doesn't match your claim.

Big D wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:27 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:17 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:11 am


What does the Gender Recognition Reform Bill actually mean in real day to day terms?

As I've said before it doesn't affect me in one bit and I'm completely ambivalent to it but that's her big problem. She chose to die on a hill that 99% of people couldn't care less about but the other 1% were going to attack relentlessly.

People should be allowed to live as they want which is a good thing. The complete lack of planning for say a male rapist changing gender during the legal process and leaving the issue initially at the doors of the prison system was completely avoidable and shone a light on an imperfect bill that should have been closer to perfect than it is.

Transgender prisoners are assigned premises by a panel, and have been for a long time.

Part of the bill is that it is a criminal offence to make a false claim, it carries a sentence of up to two years.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:20 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:17 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:11 am


What does the Gender Recognition Reform Bill actually mean in real day to day terms?

In day to day terms, it means people being gaslit about some fairly fundamental beliefs. Not much practical significance, but it's really annoying.

This is a subject I care about, perhaps you'd be kind enough to explain who is gaslighting who and what beliefs are fundamentalist in this context?

Trans women are women, right? I literally don't believe that somebody with a penis is a woman just because they declare that they are.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:33 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:26 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:22 am



So the 1% who attack this change in how to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate are driving the elected FM out of office, is that what you are saying?

Nope that's not what I'm saying but it's the straw that broke the camels back. And whilst the 99% didn't care entirely they probably cared enough that the SG appeared keener to drive minority policies, green disasters and independence than spend time dealing with issues that affect them.

The SNP still lead the polls by a clear 17% at 44% as of 26th of January. That may well change over the next few weeks, but after 8 years in Government the polling doesn't match your claim.

I'm not sure even relatively non-ardent SNP voters are likely to protest vote for Tories, are they?

The SNP, like every single ruling party in the history of the civilised world, have made a few mistakes and missteps, but it feels like they're coming a bit thicker and faster than is usual.

There might reach a tipping point when voters are so pissed off with the silly-bollocks coming out of Holyrood they change their vote, but falling short of that point it's not to say voters aren't pissed off with the silly-bollocks.

I am no longer much engaged with politics, but it seems that the SNP are left with a choice between the same old same old, or inexperienced youngsters. Whilst some of the youngsters are very smart they are still inexperienced and untempered in the fire.

Apart from being about 12, Mairi McAllan has been very impressive when I have dealt with her, and is very highly spoken of by friends from Biggar. In 10 years time I think she'd be a great FM, but at 30 she just has not got the experience.

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:39 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:33 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:26 am

Nope that's not what I'm saying but it's the straw that broke the camels back. And whilst the 99% didn't care entirely they probably cared enough that the SG appeared keener to drive minority policies, green disasters and independence than spend time dealing with issues that affect them.

The SNP still lead the polls by a clear 17% at 44% as of 26th of January. That may well change over the next few weeks, but after 8 years in Government the polling doesn't match your claim.

I'm not sure even relatively non-ardent SNP voters are likely to protest vote for Tories, are they?

The SNP, like every single ruling party in the history of the civilised world, have made a few mistakes and missteps, but it feels like they're coming a bit thicker and faster than is usual.

There might reach a tipping point when voters are so pissed off with the silly-bollocks coming out of Holyrood they change their vote, but falling short of that point it's not to say voters aren't pissed off with the silly-bollocks.

Respondents to the polls aren't flocking to Labour, Lib Dems or anyone else, though

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:36 am

Big D wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:27 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:17 am

As I've said before it doesn't affect me in one bit and I'm completely ambivalent to it but that's her big problem. She chose to die on a hill that 99% of people couldn't care less about but the other 1% were going to attack relentlessly.

People should be allowed to live as they want which is a good thing. The complete lack of planning for say a male rapist changing gender during the legal process and leaving the issue initially at the doors of the prison system was completely avoidable and shone a light on an imperfect bill that should have been closer to perfect than it is.

Transgender prisoners are assigned premises by a panel, and have been for a long time.

Part of the bill is that it is a criminal offence to make a false claim, it carries a sentence of up to two years.

Yup. The disconnect between what people seem to think the bill does and changes and what it actually does and actually changes is extremely striking to me. An awful lot of people have been completely played by the media coverage of this issue and it's really quite shameful.

robmatic wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:37 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:20 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:17 am

In day to day terms, it means people being gaslit about some fairly fundamental beliefs. Not much practical significance, but it's really annoying.

This is a subject I care about, perhaps you'd be kind enough to explain who is gaslighting who and what beliefs are fundamentalist in this context?

Trans women are women, right? I literally don't believe that somebody with a penis is a woman just because they declare that they are.

Hand on heart, do you really think that the issue is that black and white simplistic?

Sturgeon resigned because she had nowhere to go. She's not got a political project to hang her hat on now indy is basically impossible and the SNP can't have a leader that isn't planning for a referendum. The new leader is going to run into the same problem...

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:33 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:26 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:22 am



So the 1% who attack this change in how to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate are driving the elected FM out of office, is that what you are saying?

Nope that's not what I'm saying but it's the straw that broke the camels back. And whilst the 99% didn't care entirely they probably cared enough that the SG appeared keener to drive minority policies, green disasters and independence than spend time dealing with issues that affect them.

The SNP still lead the polls by a clear 17% at 44% as of 26th of January. That may well change over the next few weeks, but after 8 years in Government the polling doesn't match your claim.

Only because there are a significant percent of the population that would vote for the regardless because independence is their only concern. Try coming up with one single policy over that last few years that has actually benefited the majority in this country.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:04 am The "disaster" that was the GRA brought Scotland into line with countries line Ireland FFS, it made changing your birth certificate easier.

I've been waiting for the pearl-clutchers on the Gender thread to mention the lassie who was murdered at the weekend.

Not a fucking peep.

You know something, the more I think about this post the more shocking it becomes. Trying to score internet points on the back of a murdered child. It's fucking miles below anything posted on the gender thread. You need to get a bit of a grip and give yourself a solid fucking uppercut.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:36 am

Big D wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:27 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:17 am

As I've said before it doesn't affect me in one bit and I'm completely ambivalent to it but that's her big problem. She chose to die on a hill that 99% of people couldn't care less about but the other 1% were going to attack relentlessly.

People should be allowed to live as they want which is a good thing. The complete lack of planning for say a male rapist changing gender during the legal process and leaving the issue initially at the doors of the prison system was completely avoidable and shone a light on an imperfect bill that should have been closer to perfect than it is.

Transgender prisoners are assigned premises by a panel, and have been for a long time.

Part of the bill is that it is a criminal offence to make a false claim, it carries a sentence of up to two years.

It is. However any clauses regarding criminals changing sex between crime and punishment should have been in the bill rather than offloading the difficult issue onto the SPS. If the SPS were to go against the gender of a trans woman it would have opened them up to discrimination claims.

As with everything in politics a bad bill could be made to look good and vice versa. On such a debated bill such loop holes should have closed.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:50 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:33 am

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:26 am

Nope that's not what I'm saying but it's the straw that broke the camels back. And whilst the 99% didn't care entirely they probably cared enough that the SG appeared keener to drive minority policies, green disasters and independence than spend time dealing with issues that affect them.

The SNP still lead the polls by a clear 17% at 44% as of 26th of January. That may well change over the next few weeks, but after 8 years in Government the polling doesn't match your claim.

Only because there are a significant percent of the population that would vote for the regardless because independence is their only concern. Try coming up with one single policy over that last few years that has actually benefited the majority in this country.

Have to agree but that's why the next leader is in an impossible situation. What Scotland needs I think is what rUK needs and a map for economic growth and improved social care. And that's what the leadership election should focus on. But people don't vote for the SNP on that basis. So what the leadership election will be is all about how to reach independence which Westminster and the Supreme has blocked off.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:45 am

inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:39 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:33 am



The SNP still lead the polls by a clear 17% at 44% as of 26th of January. That may well change over the next few weeks, but after 8 years in Government the polling doesn't match your claim.

I'm not sure even relatively non-ardent SNP voters are likely to protest vote for Tories, are they?

The SNP, like every single ruling party in the history of the civilised world, have made a few mistakes and missteps, but it feels like they're coming a bit thicker and faster than is usual.

There might reach a tipping point when voters are so pissed off with the silly-bollocks coming out of Holyrood they change their vote, but falling short of that point it's not to say voters aren't pissed off with the silly-bollocks.

Respondents to the polls aren't flocking to Labour, Lib Dems or anyone else, though

So I gather, but that's my point - there's dissatisfaction but not enough to move voting dials.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:53 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:04 am The "disaster" that was the GRA brought Scotland into line with countries line Ireland FFS, it made changing your birth certificate easier.

I've been waiting for the pearl-clutchers on the Gender thread to mention the lassie who was murdered at the weekend.

Not a fucking peep.

You know something, the more I think about this post the more shocking it becomes. Trying to score internet points on the back of a murdered child. It's fucking miles below anything posted on the gender thread. You need to get a bit of a grip and give yourself a solid fucking uppercut.

I am the parent of a trans child, not much older than the girl who was murdered. This is not an abstract thought or internet points. The danger my child is in solely because of who they are is very real.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:47 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:37 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:20 am
This is a subject I care about, perhaps you'd be kind enough to explain who is gaslighting who and what beliefs are fundamentalist in this context?

Trans women are women, right? I literally don't believe that somebody with a penis is a woman just because they declare that they are.

Hand on heart, do you really think that the issue is that black and white simplistic?

Basically, yes. I'm happy with people presenting as however they like, but think we need to accept trans people as trans people.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:10 pm

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:50 am

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:33 am



The SNP still lead the polls by a clear 17% at 44% as of 26th of January. That may well change over the next few weeks, but after 8 years in Government the polling doesn't match your claim.

Only because there are a significant percent of the population that would vote for the regardless because independence is their only concern. Try coming up with one single policy over that last few years that has actually benefited the majority in this country.

Have to agree but that's why the next leader is in an impossible situation. What Scotland needs I think is what rUK needs and a map for economic growth and improved social care. And that's what the leadership election should focus on. But people don't vote for the SNP on that basis. So what the leadership election will be is all about how to reach independence which Westminster and the Supreme has blocked off.

We're not going to get any worthwhile map for economic growth and social care from Westminster though. If you really think that's going to happen in the UK without substantial constitutional change then you're living in cuckoo land. And substantial constitutional change isn't going to come from Westminster.

Biffer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:42 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:10 pm

Blackmac wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:50 am

Only because there are a significant percent of the population that would vote for the regardless because independence is their only concern. Try coming up with one single policy over that last few years that has actually benefited the majority in this country.

Have to agree but that's why the next leader is in an impossible situation. What Scotland needs I think is what rUK needs and a map for economic growth and improved social care. And that's what the leadership election should focus on. But people don't vote for the SNP on that basis. So what the leadership election will be is all about how to reach independence which Westminster and the Supreme has blocked off.

We're not going to get any worthwhile map for economic growth and social care from Westminster though. If you really think that's going to happen in the UK without substantial constitutional change then you're living in cuckoo land. And substantial constitutional change isn't going to come from Westminster.

Holyrood has devolved responsibility for some tax, healthcare, social care etc. It doesn't need a rUK map for that. Economic development, energy etc is also devolved. So I don't agree.

It's a cop out to say we can't do things because of rUK therefore independence is needed when not doing what you can do anyway. The SNP have few achievements in close to a decade of power Holyrood was designed to avoid. And achieved what? It's a single issue parliament that has no control over said single issue.

Just as trans rights are being used as a shield to protect the right wing in England now brexit is done. They're been used as a sword to depose Sturgeon now her indy race is run. Let's have some ideas on how to improve Scotland! Not culture wars and the neverendum.

robmatic wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:42 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:47 am

robmatic wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:37 am

Trans women are women, right? I literally don't believe that somebody with a penis is a woman just because they declare that they are.

Hand on heart, do you really think that the issue is that black and white simplistic?

Basically, yes. I'm happy with people presenting as however they like, but think we need to accept trans people as trans people.

What about the non-binary and intersex people who are not trans?