NPR

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:05 am This thread is such an interesting echo chamber. Ultimate confirmation bias.

The tories agenda is pure evil. Every act has a purely evil backbone. I think Nazi is the comparison.

They are promoted by the overwhelming right wing media base in the UK.

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:05 am This thread is such an interesting echo chamber. Ultimate confirmation bias.

The tories agenda is pure evil. Every act has a purely evil backbone. I think Nazi is the comparison.

They are promoted by the overwhelming right wing media base in the UK.

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:54 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:05 am This thread is such an interesting echo chamber. Ultimate confirmation bias.

The tories agenda is pure evil. Every act has a purely evil backbone. I think Nazi is the comparison.

They are promoted by the overwhelming right wing media base in the UK.

Not a quote from me referring to "Nazis" there.
Mate I've been voting for 50 years and only once voted Labour and would be happy to call out a Labour government if they were as serially incompetent and useless and as openly corrupt as this bunch are.
Would be more than happy to see the thread title changed to "UK Political Scum" and have a go at all of them. We are at a competence nadir as far as all the political parties are concerned in this country at present and I despair that it won't get any better as my grandchildren grow up.

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:27 am Just tried a search.

search.php?keywords=Nazi+Tory&terms=all ... mit=Search

That wasn’t hard.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:10 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:54 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:05 am This thread is such an interesting echo chamber. Ultimate confirmation bias.

The tories agenda is pure evil. Every act has a purely evil backbone. I think Nazi is the comparison.

They are promoted by the overwhelming right wing media base in the UK.

Not a quote from me referring to "Nazis" there.
Mate I've been voting for 50 years and only once voted Labour and would be happy to call out a Labour government if they were as serially incompetent and useless and as openly corrupt as this bunch are.
Would be more than happy to see the thread title changed to "UK Political Scum" and have a go at all of them. We are at a competence nadir as far as all the political parties are concerned in this country at present and I despair that it won't get any better as my grandchildren grow up.

I’m the same, been voting more than thirty years and never voted Labour except once in a local council election when the guy was the only to make an effort to knock on the door. So never in a general election or Scottish Parliament election. But I’ve seen friends who I always considered moderate Tories get wrapped up in this bullshit that’s being peddled by the far right of the party and go to this anti immigrant, anti big govt us style crap, complete abuse of what rights are and should be, anti europe lunacy, as they’ve followed their party into the depths. And this attempt to make socialist a dirty word, pretending it means communist and making like you’re too fucking thick to know the difference, again US style moronic nonsense, god it gets my goat.

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:45 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:10 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:54 am
Not a quote from me referring to "Nazis" there.
Mate I've been voting for 50 years and only once voted Labour and would be happy to call out a Labour government if they were as serially incompetent and useless and as openly corrupt as this bunch are.
Would be more than happy to see the thread title changed to "UK Political Scum" and have a go at all of them. We are at a competence nadir as far as all the political parties are concerned in this country at present and I despair that it won't get any better as my grandchildren grow up.

I’m the same, been voting more than thirty years and never voted Labour except once in a local council election when the guy was the only to make an effort to knock on the door. So never in a general election or Scottish Parliament election. But I’ve seen friends who I always considered moderate Tories get wrapped up in this bullshit that’s being peddled by the far right of the party and go to this anti immigrant, anti big govt us style crap, complete abuse of what rights are and should be, anti europe lunacy, as they’ve followed their party into the depths. And this attempt to make socialist a dirty word, pretending it means communist and making like you’re too fucking thick to know the difference, again US style moronic nonsense, god it gets my goat.

Doesn't help that they are led by a repugnant, morally bankrupt cunt of a human being!

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:45 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:10 am

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:54 am
Not a quote from me referring to "Nazis" there.
Mate I've been voting for 50 years and only once voted Labour and would be happy to call out a Labour government if they were as serially incompetent and useless and as openly corrupt as this bunch are.
Would be more than happy to see the thread title changed to "UK Political Scum" and have a go at all of them. We are at a competence nadir as far as all the political parties are concerned in this country at present and I despair that it won't get any better as my grandchildren grow up.

I’m the same, been voting more than thirty years and never voted Labour except once in a local council election when the guy was the only to make an effort to knock on the door. So never in a general election or Scottish Parliament election. But I’ve seen friends who I always considered moderate Tories get wrapped up in this bullshit that’s being peddled by the far right of the party and go to this anti immigrant, anti big govt us style crap, complete abuse of what rights are and should be, anti europe lunacy, as they’ve followed their party into the depths. And this attempt to make socialist a dirty word, pretending it means communist and making like you’re too fucking thick to know the difference, again US style moronic nonsense, god it gets my goat.

Doesn't help that they are led by a repugnant, morally bankrupt cunt of a human being!

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:05 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:45 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:10 am

I’m the same, been voting more than thirty years and never voted Labour except once in a local council election when the guy was the only to make an effort to knock on the door. So never in a general election or Scottish Parliament election. But I’ve seen friends who I always considered moderate Tories get wrapped up in this bullshit that’s being peddled by the far right of the party and go to this anti immigrant, anti big govt us style crap, complete abuse of what rights are and should be, anti europe lunacy, as they’ve followed their party into the depths. And this attempt to make socialist a dirty word, pretending it means communist and making like you’re too fucking thick to know the difference, again US style moronic nonsense, god it gets my goat.

Doesn't help that they are led by a repugnant, morally bankrupt cunt of a human being!

Yeah, that’s the biggest part of it. The Tories at the moment are led by a shower of dishonest shysters fucks whose only interest is power, and who are, frankly incapable and incompetent. And their supporters try to brush this off with ‘all politicians are arseholes, all of them lie’ as if what’s happening now is comparable to dishonesty in the past, and as if it used to be normal that the kind of rank incompetence shown regularly here used to be rewarded and people kept their jobs, rather than resigning or being fired.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:49 pm The supermarket shortages are become more and more noticeable. It's funny this isn't really national news. Oh well, paying more for our shopping is worth it to get Brits training up to be HGV drivers and paid more for what's a horrible job.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:44 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:49 pm The supermarket shortages are become more and more noticeable. It's funny this isn't really national news. Oh well, paying more for our shopping is worth it to get Brits training up to be HGV drivers and paid more for what's a horrible job.

Has anyone explained where the 700 million to train 100,000 new drivers is going to come from ? (assuming that 100% of those drivers completes the training sucessfully)

Or indeed where the extra trainers, inspectors, & examiners will come from ?

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:44 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:49 pm The supermarket shortages are become more and more noticeable. It's funny this isn't really national news. Oh well, paying more for our shopping is worth it to get Brits training up to be HGV drivers and paid more for what's a horrible job.

Has anyone explained where the 700 million to train 100,000 new drivers is going to come from ? (assuming that 100% of those drivers completes the training sucessfully)

Or indeed where the extra trainers, inspectors, & examiners will come from ?

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:15 pm It's always worth noting there was a proclaimed shortage of drivers before 2020, seemingly in the region of 60,000. Now obviously some of that would come from drivers relocating before/in anticipation of brexit, but wasn't really cited so likely immaterial.

Therefore all things being equal it isn't 100k that need to trained to get back to 2019 capacity.

It is simply the government's unwillingness to deviate from "free market will sort it" that might attract negative attention that is causing the issue. I don't have a problem with them not issuing additional visas as temp fix if it would impede willingness of the market to resolve. But market needs the government to provide capacity for them to do so. The problem isn't that great, but needs acknowledgement from a key player to resolve. It would be laughably easy for them to move to create capacity and trumpet a political win of British jobs for British people, and easier still to counter the "100k shortage due to brexit" claim.

But they won't or can't because of idealogy.

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:15 pm It's always worth noting there was a proclaimed shortage of drivers before 2020, seemingly in the region of 60,000. Now obviously some of that would come from drivers relocating before/in anticipation of brexit, but wasn't really cited so likely immaterial.

Therefore all things being equal it isn't 100k that need to trained to get back to 2019 capacity.

It is simply the government's unwillingness to deviate from "free market will sort it" that might attract negative attention that is causing the issue. I don't have a problem with them not issuing additional visas as temp fix if it would impede willingness of the market to resolve. But market needs the government to provide capacity for them to do so. The problem isn't that great, but needs acknowledgement from a key player to resolve. It would be laughably easy for them to move to create capacity and trumpet a political win of British jobs for British people, and easier still to counter the "100k shortage due to brexit" claim.

But they won't or can't because of idealogy.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:46 pm It takes quite a while to train up new drivers though. So it's not that easy.

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:34 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:46 pm It takes quite a while to train up new drivers though. So it's not that easy.

I would argue it is the easiest and most cost effective (long term) of practical solutions whilst it can also deliver political benefits.

One of the greatest features of FoM is taking the government and bureaucracy mostly out of the equation. An accelerated visa system will be costly, take time to implement, time to attract participants and encourage the market to sit back and let government continue to U-turn with half arsed solutions when the heat turns on. All whilst not having the political capital (at the moment) to do so.

Compared to the alternatives in the reality we live in, and other holes VoteLeave have dug for us and themselves, I am fairly comfortable ascribing it as easy to sort.

robmatic wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:07 pm There are presumably a fair number of HGV licensed folk in the UK who are not presently working in the sector who could be enticed back if the wages/conditions were attractive enough.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:33 pm

robmatic wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:07 pm There are presumably a fair number of HGV licensed folk in the UK who are not presently working in the sector who could be enticed back if the wages/conditions were attractive enough.

That's true I've been reading about the conditions of rest stops and they are absolutely horrendous. Again, the problem is it takes a long time to build up that infrastructure. And the costs of wages have to be passed on, not sure who is building the roadside infrastructure going to guess the government won't. I personally imagine we'll get to a stage where everything is just that bit more expensive. Not necessarily bad, but how many people enjoy paying more for things for British workers with better conditions. I am going to guess a minority.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:36 am

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:27 am Just tried a search.

search.php?keywords=Nazi+Tory&terms=all ... mit=Search

That wasn’t hard.

One poster compared them to the Nazis and the other posts are calling them out for doing so. Hardly a gotcha.

If you want balance you could try starting a balanced conversation rather than you know going immediately to extremes.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:26 pm

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:34 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:46 pm It takes quite a while to train up new drivers though. So it's not that easy.

I would argue it is the easiest and most cost effective (long term) of practical solutions whilst it can also deliver political benefits.

One of the greatest features of FoM is taking the government and bureaucracy mostly out of the equation. An accelerated visa system will be costly, take time to implement, time to attract participants and encourage the market to sit back and let government continue to U-turn with half arsed solutions when the heat turns on. All whilst not having the political capital (at the moment) to do so.

Compared to the alternatives in the reality we live in, and other holes VoteLeave have dug for us and themselves, I am fairly comfortable ascribing it as easy to sort.

Absolutely agree that we need to train more HGV drivers - it takes around 3-4 months though. It's just quite hard for politicians to gamble Christmas shortages on "this is actually good, the HGV drivers are British". Also it seems that this will drive up prices as we cut off the reliance on cheap labour. Again, politically it's hard to say "this is good guys, hgv drivers are British and getting paid more!". I certainly could be wrong and people might be happy their weekly shop is more expensive because there's upward pressure on wages. I personally think it's okay as I'm comfortable and believe we need to start paying higher wages. But it seems somewhat unlikely it's going to be hugely popular unless your wages are also going up which most well yeah ...won't.

dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:51 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:26 pm

TheNatalShark wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:34 pm

I would argue it is the easiest and most cost effective (long term) of practical solutions whilst it can also deliver political benefits.

One of the greatest features of FoM is taking the government and bureaucracy mostly out of the equation. An accelerated visa system will be costly, take time to implement, time to attract participants and encourage the market to sit back and let government continue to U-turn with half arsed solutions when the heat turns on. All whilst not having the political capital (at the moment) to do so.

Compared to the alternatives in the reality we live in, and other holes VoteLeave have dug for us and themselves, I am fairly comfortable ascribing it as easy to sort.

Absolutely agree that we need to train more HGV drivers - it takes around 3-4 months though. It's just quite hard for politicians to gamble Christmas shortages on "this is actually good, the HGV drivers are British". Also it seems that this will drive up prices as we cut off the reliance on cheap labour. Again, politically it's hard to say "this is good guys, hgv drivers are British and getting paid more!". I certainly could be wrong and people might be happy their weekly shop is more expensive because there's upward pressure on wages. I personally think it's okay as I'm comfortable and believe we need to start paying higher wages. But it seems somewhat unlikely it's going to be hugely popular unless your wages are also going up which most well yeah ...won't.

It is a bit more complicated than just training the number required to fill the gap. It is a dynamic situation so there will be a training number required each year just to maintain current driver numbers. Not sure what current attrition from the workforce is but 10-15% wouldn't be unusual? From what I have heard about the current age profile of the existing workforce it sounds like there will be further significant attrition due to retirals in next 5-10 years. Then there is a training and testing pipeline issue - I don't know what the current training capacity is but from the sound of things the current pipeline capacity isn't sufficient. Is there an issue then about who trains the new drivers and does this mean taking current drivers off current driving duties to train or to test new drivers? What about examiners? There also seems to be a cost issue - training is expensive and this needs a significant investment from employers, have the capacity to fund and will they if they are seeing higher attrition in a competitive labour market? Then there is the wider labour market - if there are c1 million current vacancies in the labour market then what is the attractiveness of being an HGV driver - salary, conditions, seeing the world - compared to other jobs that offer similar salary? Doesn't sound a very attractive job at the moment!

Given it is a very fragmented and uncontrolled workforce market it will take some time for the free market forces to sort these things out, if it needs a quicker resolution, and it sounds like it does, then we need some serious Gov intervention ... and that doesn't mean the army drivers being sent in to help! Otherwise the market will be driven by who can afford to recruit and retain drivers and that might mean significant societal damage - such as the difficulties for SMEs or in distribution of vials the NHS needs to enable blood tests to be taken. Sounds to me that we need someone to 'fly the plane' on this issue at least for the next 2-3 years?

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:54 pm

Platitudes & sound bites are about all anyone can expect from this shower.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:49 pm The supermarket shortages are become more and more noticeable. It's funny this isn't really national news. Oh well, paying more for our shopping is worth it to get Brits training up to be HGV drivers and paid more for what's a horrible job.

westport wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:28 am Free overnight parking in service areas, increased security at stops, a dozen other things.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:47 am https://www.businessinsider.com/robert- ... ssion=true

Would you believe it Plim, Jenrick is involved in another process error. Just like that Maxwell one. It's lucky it's a process error and not wrongdoing otherwise we might be able to suggest there's some corruption at play. Hope our dodgy lawyers don't get involved and there's no judicial overreaching trying to prevent salt of the earth morally upstanding people who have only had to repay one bribe from doing a good job!!

westport wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:28 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:49 pm The supermarket shortages are become more and more noticeable. It's funny this isn't really national news. Oh well, paying more for our shopping is worth it to get Brits training up to be HGV drivers and paid more for what's a horrible job.

A friend of mine is a transport manager we are both on a ex-forces site he says, there isn't a shortage of HGV drivers - There are 600,000 driver jobs in UK and 1.37 million qualified drivers.

There are more than enough qualified HGV drivers to fill all the jobs but they are not taking them as they have been screwed by the companies over the years with the incoming foreign drivers that forced down wages for drivers. The companies are not investing in staff. There is no investment in working conditions, ie toilet and changing facilities. Drivers have had enough and not prepared to put up with all the sh1t. Change that (and some things could be changed in a heartbeat, like suspending CPC for 24 months). Free overnight parking in service areas, increased security at stops, a dozen other things.

There are drivers that have had 3,4, or 5 pay rises this year by companies that are desperate to keep hold of their current drivers.

It is not just here

17,00 Truck driver short in Italy
124,000 Drivers short in Poland
Germany 45,000 - 60,000 short
France 43,000
Spain 15,00

https://www.globalcoldchainnews.com/dri ... -european/

And don't get him started on RHA and the other body as they want all the foreigners to come back and that will again force down drivers wages. And the DVLA isn't helping either with their industrial action

Plim wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:03 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:47 am https://www.businessinsider.com/robert- ... ssion=true

Would you believe it Plim, Jenrick is involved in another process error. Just like that Maxwell one. It's lucky it's a process error and not wrongdoing otherwise we might be able to suggest there's some corruption at play. Hope our dodgy lawyers don't get involved and there's no judicial overreaching trying to prevent salt of the earth morally upstanding people who have only had to repay one bribe from doing a good job!!

I’m not defending wrongdoing - even down to not declaring otherwise acceptable meetings (a point made in that article). Read my posts.

My objection is to essentially politically motivated use of JR.

Trouble is, whether or not Jenrick is morally culpable here (the meeting was hardly secret was it?), it’s not a reviewable decision. ‘Process’ in the JR sense doesn’t come into it.

If GLP’s JR about levelling up succeeds they’ll have shown that due process wasn’t followed. If it fails we will have to assume that proper process was followed. In neither case is wrongdoing established or excluded.

For what it’s worth, the Blair government in 2002 published a bill that would have removed JR jurisdiction from all immigration and asylum cases - in other words truly important individual cases. Was that government corrupt and rotten because of that attempt? I don’t think so. I disagreed with the policy of restriction of those cases then and I’d disagree with it now, since they clearly concern executive decision-making that affects individuals and that the courts should be able to review, but it’s got nothing to do with wrongdoing.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:29 pm

westport wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:28 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:49 pm The supermarket shortages are become more and more noticeable. It's funny this isn't really national news. Oh well, paying more for our shopping is worth it to get Brits training up to be HGV drivers and paid more for what's a horrible job.

A friend of mine is a transport manager we are both on a ex-forces site he says, there isn't a shortage of HGV drivers - There are 600,000 driver jobs in UK and 1.37 million qualified drivers.

There are more than enough qualified HGV drivers to fill all the jobs but they are not taking them as they have been screwed by the companies over the years with the incoming foreign drivers that forced down wages for drivers. The companies are not investing in staff. There is no investment in working conditions, ie toilet and changing facilities. Drivers have had enough and not prepared to put up with all the sh1t. Change that (and some things could be changed in a heartbeat, like suspending CPC for 24 months). Free overnight parking in service areas, increased security at stops, a dozen other things.

There are drivers that have had 3,4, or 5 pay rises this year by companies that are desperate to keep hold of their current drivers.

It is not just here

17,00 Truck driver short in Italy
124,000 Drivers short in Poland
Germany 45,000 - 60,000 short
France 43,000
Spain 15,00

https://www.globalcoldchainnews.com/dri ... -european/

And don't get him started on RHA and the other body as they want all the foreigners to come back and that will again force down drivers wages. And the DVLA isn't helping either with their industrial action

Yup, the old hard working foreigners,

lazy Brits, narratives coming home to roost.

This is happening across sectors and I have little sympathy for the employers that have enjoyed a run of cheap labour they have been able to treat like shit.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:35 pm

Plim wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:03 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:47 am https://www.businessinsider.com/robert- ... ssion=true

Would you believe it Plim, Jenrick is involved in another process error. Just like that Maxwell one. It's lucky it's a process error and not wrongdoing otherwise we might be able to suggest there's some corruption at play. Hope our dodgy lawyers don't get involved and there's no judicial overreaching trying to prevent salt of the earth morally upstanding people who have only had to repay one bribe from doing a good job!!

I’m not defending wrongdoing - even down to not declaring otherwise acceptable meetings (a point made in that article). Read my posts.

My objection is to essentially politically motivated use of JR.

Trouble is, whether or not Jenrick is morally culpable here (the meeting was hardly secret was it?), it’s not a reviewable decision. ‘Process’ in the JR sense doesn’t come into it.

If GLP’s JR about levelling up succeeds they’ll have shown that due process wasn’t followed. If it fails we will have to assume that proper process was followed. In neither case is wrongdoing established or excluded.

For what it’s worth, the Blair government in 2002 published a bill that would have removed JR jurisdiction from all immigration and asylum cases - in other words truly important individual cases. Was that government corrupt and rotten because of that attempt? I don’t think so. I disagreed with the policy of restriction of those cases then and I’d disagree with it now, since they clearly concern executive decision-making that affects individuals and that the courts should be able to review, but it’s got nothing to do with wrongdoing.

I think there's a pretty big difference between creating a mechanism to give levelling up funds to constituency which return a Tory MP using criteria that is handpicked to do so. And removing judicial review from specific asylum cases. You could easily argue that removing jr from immigration/asylum cases is evil or morally wrong. It's hard to argue that's it's corrupt though. It's not very difficult to argue that giving quite well of constituencies levelling up funds is corrupt or maybe not corrupt but paying for votes in any case. Tony Blair was also guilty of cash for access/peerages - he's no morally pure Saint. He is a bastard as well.

Dogbert wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:54 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:29 pm

westport wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:28 am

A friend of mine is a transport manager we are both on a ex-forces site he says, there isn't a shortage of HGV drivers - There are 600,000 driver jobs in UK and 1.37 million qualified drivers.

There are more than enough qualified HGV drivers to fill all the jobs but they are not taking them as they have been screwed by the companies over the years with the incoming foreign drivers that forced down wages for drivers. The companies are not investing in staff. There is no investment in working conditions, ie toilet and changing facilities. Drivers have had enough and not prepared to put up with all the sh1t. Change that (and some things could be changed in a heartbeat, like suspending CPC for 24 months). Free overnight parking in service areas, increased security at stops, a dozen other things.

There are drivers that have had 3,4, or 5 pay rises this year by companies that are desperate to keep hold of their current drivers.

It is not just here

17,00 Truck driver short in Italy
124,000 Drivers short in Poland
Germany 45,000 - 60,000 short
France 43,000
Spain 15,00

https://www.globalcoldchainnews.com/dri ... -european/

And don't get him started on RHA and the other body as they want all the foreigners to come back and that will again force down drivers wages. And the DVLA isn't helping either with their industrial action

Yup, the old hard working foreigners,

lazy Brits, narratives coming home to roost.

This is happening across sectors and I have little sympathy for the employers that have enjoyed a run of cheap labour they have been able to treat like shit.

How do you feel about Politicians who also espouse this point of view ?

Lets face it "Too many people in Britain, we argue, prefer a lie-in to hard work.”

Plim wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:11 pm

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:35 pm

Plim wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:03 pm

I’m not defending wrongdoing - even down to not declaring otherwise acceptable meetings (a point made in that article). Read my posts.

My objection is to essentially politically motivated use of JR.

Trouble is, whether or not Jenrick is morally culpable here (the meeting was hardly secret was it?), it’s not a reviewable decision. ‘Process’ in the JR sense doesn’t come into it.

If GLP’s JR about levelling up succeeds they’ll have shown that due process wasn’t followed. If it fails we will have to assume that proper process was followed. In neither case is wrongdoing established or excluded.

For what it’s worth, the Blair government in 2002 published a bill that would have removed JR jurisdiction from all immigration and asylum cases - in other words truly important individual cases. Was that government corrupt and rotten because of that attempt? I don’t think so. I disagreed with the policy of restriction of those cases then and I’d disagree with it now, since they clearly concern executive decision-making that affects individuals and that the courts should be able to review, but it’s got nothing to do with wrongdoing.

I think there's a pretty big difference between creating a mechanism to give levelling up funds to constituency which return a Tory MP using criteria that is handpicked to do so. And removing judicial review from specific asylum cases. You could easily argue that removing jr from immigration/asylum cases is evil or morally wrong. It's hard to argue that's it's corrupt though. It's not very difficult to argue that giving quite well of constituencies levelling up funds is corrupt or maybe not corrupt but paying for votes in any case. Tony Blair was also guilty of cash for access/peerages - he's no morally pure Saint. He is a bastard as well.

Again, decisions on spending that benefit a party in government directly or indirectly (assuming what you say about levelling up is true, which is a big, unproven assumption) aren't corrupt in any legal sense because of that alone. Nor are they corrupt by the fact of being found in breach of adminstrative law principles. They might be politically objectionable, depending on your politics, but that's a whole different matter.

You're conflating criminal law and adminstrative law.

Blair had his faults. But at his core he was a decent enough person, had good EU instincts and was generally a good prime minister. I share the dim view of his later messianic foreign policy, but even then I suspect he genuinely thought he was on the right side. If you want morally pure saints in government you're going to be disappointed every time.