2022/23 Champions/Challenge Cup

[paddyor]

Wrong incidents. The feed I had said RTE but your point is probably valid i.e. TMO has own feed so all the bluster about Fre broadcasters not showing replays should be irrelevant.

The thing about French broadcasters was they never showed replays at all where there might be a question about illegality. And sometimes refs can be influenced to go back and look at stuff due to whats on the big screen. And a French TV producer freely admitted this.

Well, then I'd suggest that is yet another failing in the officiating that needs addressing?

No it is what is really. Lots of bleating about the porter tackle and the fact Vdf didn't get carded, not so much about Ramos pucnhing Porter in a ruck (in a similar position to Neti) which could have been a 2nd yellow or Arnold chinning Ross Byrne in a weird "tackling the tackler" in the run up to the Ahki try.

[paddyor]

Okay, Biffer's post was misunderstood and the repeated references to "bleating" were from outwith this forum.

Eh, no. Biffer misunderstood the post he initially got in a tizzy about.

Whatever the case, you've put in a sterling effort in defence of all things Leinster and their fans, Leinster the Unassailable right enough.

I've been reminded over the last couple of days of part of the reason I took a break from here and it's something that is my own fault, I find it difficult to just walk away and leave comments alone, so I'll need to learn that, I just don't find it easy.

However, part of not leaving things alone is that I look for examples, so far I've looked at the rugby sections in the Telegraph, Times and Guardian for articles where there is this bleating in the UK media about the unfairness of it all and how Leinster benefit, it must be there but so far I can't find it.
Full disclosure, I only looked at the headlines in the articles in the last week to ten days, to save reading anything that didn't seem relevant to this, but it must be in there somewhere - this is a genuine request, no wind up or underhanded motivation, can you provided a link or two?

It's there. Especially on fan forums.

[SaintK]

Another red from Dickson overturned

Former France skipper Charles Ollivon has been cleared to play for Toulon in their upcoming Challenge Cup final versus Glasgow in Dublin on May 19. The back-rower was red-carded in the early stages of his team’s semi-final win over Benetton last weekend, but he has now been cleared to play with immediate effect after the sending-off by referee Karl Dickson was overturned.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/epcr-sta ... erdict/
Torque in 54321.......................................................

[Tichtheid]

Eh, no. Biffer misunderstood the post he initially got in a tizzy about.

Whatever the case, you've put in a sterling effort in defence of all things Leinster and their fans, Leinster the Unassailable right enough.

I've been reminded over the last couple of days of part of the reason I took a break from here and it's something that is my own fault, I find it difficult to just walk away and leave comments alone, so I'll need to learn that, I just don't find it easy.

However, part of not leaving things alone is that I look for examples, so far I've looked at the rugby sections in the Telegraph, Times and Guardian for articles where there is this bleating in the UK media about the unfairness of it all and how Leinster benefit, it must be there but so far I can't find it.
Full disclosure, I only looked at the headlines in the articles in the last week to ten days, to save reading anything that didn't seem relevant to this, but it must be in there somewhere - this is a genuine request, no wind up or underhanded motivation, can you provided a link or two?

It's there. Especially on fan forums.

I thought the claim was that it was in the media?

I'm not too sure we can take fan forums as being anything other than what there are - extremely partisan and not subject to any kind of journalistic quality control.

(disclaimer - I'm not saying the UK media is subject to journalistic qc, unfortunately, but I think my point is easy enough to see)

[Tichtheid]

Another red from Dickson overturned

Former France skipper Charles Ollivon has been cleared to play for Toulon in their upcoming Challenge Cup final versus Glasgow in Dublin on May 19. The back-rower was red-carded in the early stages of his team’s semi-final win over Benetton last weekend, but he has now been cleared to play with immediate effect after the sending-off by referee Karl Dickson was overturned.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/epcr-sta ... erdict/
Torque in 54321.......................................................

They don't say how they reached the decision, do you think there was no contact with the head? I've now seen it and it looks like the ball between the payers made the Benetton player bounce backwards.

Ollivon didn't really make any effort to lower the height of the tackle.

I tuned into the game after that happened so I didn't see it at the time.

[paddyor]

Whatever the case, you've put in a sterling effort in defence of all things Leinster and their fans, Leinster the Unassailable right enough.

I've been reminded over the last couple of days of part of the reason I took a break from here and it's something that is my own fault, I find it difficult to just walk away and leave comments alone, so I'll need to learn that, I just don't find it easy.

However, part of not leaving things alone is that I look for examples, so far I've looked at the rugby sections in the Telegraph, Times and Guardian for articles where there is this bleating in the UK media about the unfairness of it all and how Leinster benefit, it must be there but so far I can't find it.
Full disclosure, I only looked at the headlines in the articles in the last week to ten days, to save reading anything that didn't seem relevant to this, but it must be in there somewhere - this is a genuine request, no wind up or underhanded motivation, can you provided a link or two?

It's there. Especially on fan forums.

I thought the claim was that it was in the media?

I'm not too sure we can take fan forums as being anything other than what there are - extremely partisan and not subject to any kind of journalistic quality control.

(disclaimer - I'm not saying the UK media is subject to journalistic qc, unfortunately, but I think my point is easy enough to see)

They didn't lick it up off the ground. Brian Moore wrote an article about it(after the qf IIRC) and it's a been a talking point thats bounced around podcasts etc.

[CM11]

Not necessarily about the venue but apparently a quarter final and semi final of the URC is a 'handy' warm up for Leinster to the final while regular league games give La Rochelle a really tough run according to Bayfield.

Separately ROG seems to have forgotten most of the Leinster team play for Ireland.

[Tichtheid]

It's there. Especially on fan forums.

I thought the claim was that it was in the media?

I'm not too sure we can take fan forums as being anything other than what there are - extremely partisan and not subject to any kind of journalistic quality control.

(disclaimer - I'm not saying the UK media is subject to journalistic qc, unfortunately, but I think my point is easy enough to see)

They didn't lick it up off the ground. Brian Moore wrote an article about it(after the qf IIRC) and it's a been a talking point thats bounced around podcasts etc.

Right, I've found that one now, cheers, and given the caveat that newspaper articles are little more than clickbait to attract advertising, he writes

It is surely not right that any side should have four home games, including the final, when contesting Europe’s top club tournament.

'In particular, no club should have a home tie for a final. Yes, Leinster are in an anomalous position, given that they frequently play in a national stadium, but it cannot be beyond the wit of an organising committee to prospectively book a couple of alternative venues before announcing a final or, as is the case this and other years, a stadium for a country from which no quarter-finalists have qualified, in this case Scotland or Wales.

'Leinster are favourites for the title. Like the national side they populate heavily, they have no conspicuous weakness and do not need the considerable advantage of successive home fixtures. This is not an anti-Leinster rant; no side should be given this sort of draw. Other teams who topped their groups have not been handed similar benefits.'

I disagree with him, he has a point about a team playing a few yards from their own ground, in a ground on which their international contingent will play high pressure games in AIs, the Christmas fixtures and the 6N, that is an easier game than say travelling to Cardiff or wherever.
However, as I said before the game can't be booked at the last minute because it's too complicated, eg the SRU booked Murrayfield for concerts ages ago. The big football grounds in Scotland have pitches that are too small for rugby games.

He's also mistaken in the last sentence there, La Roch played their knock out games at home because they topped their group.

[Kawazaki]

It's a general theme, being led by the English media.

Or you've got a massive chip on your shoulder and most of what you imagine is happening is just all in your head?

[CM11]

It's a general theme, being led by the English media.

Or you've got a massive chip on your shoulder and most of what you imagine is happening is just all in your head?

This would be funny from anyone but from you it has me on the floor.

You should look in the mirror one of these days.

[SaintK]

Another red from Dickson overturned

Former France skipper Charles Ollivon has been cleared to play for Toulon in their upcoming Challenge Cup final versus Glasgow in Dublin on May 19. The back-rower was red-carded in the early stages of his team’s semi-final win over Benetton last weekend, but he has now been cleared to play with immediate effect after the sending-off by referee Karl Dickson was overturned.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/epcr-sta ... erdict/
Torque in 54321.......................................................

They don't say how they reached the decision, do you think there was no contact with the head? I've now seen it and it looks like the ball between the payers made the Benetton player bounce backwards.

Ollivon didn't really make any effort to lower the height of the tackle.

I tuned into the game after that happened so I didn't see it at the time.

There was possibly contact with the head though it is difficult to see any real direct contact with the shoulder and as you say the ball was virtually chest on chest which probably made it ;look worse
Dickson seemed to want to give a red from the get go.
Second one from him that has been overturned in recent weeks.

[Kawazaki]

It's a general theme, being led by the English media.

Or you've got a massive chip on your shoulder and most of what you imagine is happening is just all in your head?

This would be funny from anyone but from you it has me on the floor.

You should look in the mirror one of these days.

I'm not Irish.

[PornDog]

Brian Moore was certainly the catalyst on this occasion. The BT bobble heads have referenced it a few times and Bayfield came out with the URC is shit innit trope - which in fairness hasn't really been brought up too often in more recent times.

As I said in my first post, it's not that there isn't a valid topic of conversation there in terms of tournament structure etc. - I think we can all agree it has many many issues. It's just that this particular issue wasn't a problem when it was to Exeters advantage, it wasn't a problem when it was to Toulouse or La Rochelle's advantage, but now that it is (potentially) to Leinster's advantage, well now its a problem that needs to be addressed.

There's a very underhanded vibe to it all.

Martin Samuel in The Times -

Leinster are favourites to become champions of Europe for a fifth time next month, powered by a very fine team and a completely avoidable competitive advantage. If Leinster reach the final on May 20, they will have played eight games, and all but two will have been at home. January 14 at Gloucester will be the last time Leinster played outside the Aviva Stadium, Dublin, in their European run, having previously visited Le Havre to face Racing 92. The rest will be home encounters.

The Heineken Champions Cup plays its knockout rounds over a single leg and home advantage is bestowed on the higher-ranked team. Leinster dominated pool A, so got their rewards. Yet the semi-finals and final are played at neutral venues. It just so happens that European Rugby decided Dublin in 2023 would be neutral.

So Leinster play Toulouse at home this weekend, and then the winners of La Rochelle and Exeter Chiefs there in May. It’s wrong. There has to be a way to organise a competition from a year out so that the deciding venues are guaranteed neutral. Next year, Tottenham Hotspur’s stadium has been chosen for the final. That’s sensible, but this was always likely to bestow an unfair advantage. Leinster were last season’s finalists and their team is the core of Ireland, ranked first in the world.

And, yes, Bayern Munich got to play football’s 2012 Champions League final at home and didn’t win. Yet if Leinster do, it will always be thought they were given a leg-up. It’s not fair on them; but it’s certainly not fair on the others, either.

"It's Wrong", when Leinster only play two away games*, but it's not wrong when La Rochelle won the tournament last year having only played once outside of France (they were awarded a draw for a COVID game, ironically enough when in similar circumstances Leinster were handed a 28-0 forfeit - and played Bordauex in the 2 leg last 16). It wasn't wrong when Leinster had to play La Rochelle in a semi final the year before in their actual home ground, but it is unfair that Toulouse has to play in a ground Leinster sometimes move high profile games to - same as Harlequins, Saracens, Stade Francais and Edinburgh do (and the Welsh do with Judgement Day).

It's the hypocrisy of it all that really grates. A hypocrisy that only seems to show its ugly head when an Irish team is doing well (and they still haven't won anything yet)



* I think it's wrong too, but that's the structure the shitheads in power dreamt up!

[PCPhil]

To be fair....it looks like you've dredged up a couple of haks trying to sell column inches in a couple of papers by pretending the reasons for Irelands (plural) success at the moment over English sides is due to some unfairness rather than the the lack of structure and ability than goes all the way to the national side. But keep going.

[CM11]

To be fair....it looks like you've dredged up a couple of haks trying to sell column inches in a couple of papers by pretending the reasons for Irelands (plural) success at the moment over English sides is due to some unfairness rather than the the lack of structure and ability than goes all the way to the national side. But keep going.

Bayfield works for the broadcaster of the competition.

[Torquemada 1420]

Another red from Dickson overturned

Former France skipper Charles Ollivon has been cleared to play for Toulon in their upcoming Challenge Cup final versus Glasgow in Dublin on May 19. The back-rower was red-carded in the early stages of his team’s semi-final win over Benetton last weekend, but he has now been cleared to play with immediate effect after the sending-off by referee Karl Dickson was overturned.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/epcr-sta ... erdict/
Torque in 54321.......................................................

The likes of Dickson, Brace and Adamson continue to make a mockery of the game. Players have to sit out bans for their foul ups and it's time refs who repeatedly f**k up are stood down too.

[Biffer]

It's not even all Leinster, I've known a fair few folk from Skerries and they are sound too.

There does seem to be a bit of a nervous tick when it comes to some fans online. I took Biffer's original post to mean that a neutral venue would make for an even more interesting contest between two fantastic sides.
Home advantage counts for a heck of a lot.
It didn't seem like a dig at Leinster or even the set up of the competition to me.

That was exactly my point, but some Irish preciousness immediately jumped in.

TBF, there's a lot of bleating about Leinster having an unfair advantage getting home ties, when there was no such bleating when La Rochelle and Toulouse had actual home stadium (not home country, but their own actual home stadia) semi final ties in 2021, or Exeter had in 2020. Not a peep out of anyone. But Leinster have home country advantage, earned through performance and the laws of the competition, and all of a sudden commentators are up in arms about how unfair it is.

Seriously?

You want to compare it to the two pandemic years when there were no crowds in the stadium?

That's somehow equivalent to 50,000 in the Aviva?

If anything, you're proving the point about what's been said earlier in the thread.

[CM11]

Leinster have been playing semis in Lansdowne Road since the very first European Cup. Why is it suddenly a 'new' issue, nearly 30 years into the comp?

[clydecloggie]

Leinster have been playing semis in Lansdowne Road since the very first European Cup. Why is it suddenly a 'new' issue, nearly 30 years into the comp?

No idea why, but my guess would be the abject failure of Premiership clubs and English rugby in general has reinvigorated an anti-Irish sentiment.

Funnily enough, I thought there always was a rule that semis had to be played in a stadium at least 100 or 150km from the top-seeded side's home ground. I vaguely recall Glasgow had to get permission to nominate Murrayfield as the SF location because it was too close to Glasgow but the only other option in Scotland (they've never actually needed it as they habitually lost their QF to Sarries). Have I just made that up or was there such a rule? Might be that Ireland simply doesn't have a large-enough stadium outside of Dublin.

[CM11]

Don't remember that rule at all.

I do remember that because we played our pool games in Lansdowne in 2003 we had to get dispensation to play the semi there that year but it's been allowed since.

[CM11]

The main point to remember is that EPCR and ERC before them take the revenue from the semis so it's in their interest to play it somewhere that'll sell as many tickets as possible.

Frankly the coin toss made it a bit fairer, at least both sides had a chance of home country advantage, but for reasons known only to themselves EPCR decided to get rid of it.

And now the pool stages are such a farce that the route to the final is usually a procession with little jeopardy for the best teams in the competition where previously they might slip up in the pool stages or lose out to a team in an easy group and not quite have everything their way.

[clydecloggie]

Don't remember that rule at all.

I do remember that because we played our pool games in Lansdowne in 2003 we had to get dispensation to play the semi there that year but it's been allowed since.

Intriguingly, in the EPCR rules on their website it says ' the highest-ranked clubs from the pool stage will have home venue advantage' for the QF, but 'the highest-ranked clubs from the pool stage will have home country advantage' for the SF.

And then obviously it doesn't say anything about why that distinction is made.

[CM11]

That's just to distinguish it between a home game organised by the home team and a fixture organised by EPCR in the country of the higher seed.

[clydecloggie]

The main point to remember is that EPCR and ERC before them take the revenue from the semis so it's in their interest to play it somewhere that'll sell as many tickets as possible.

Frankly the coin toss made it a bit fairer, at least both sides had a chance of home country advantage, but for reasons known only to themselves EPCR decided to get rid of it.

And now the pool stages are such a farce that the route to the final is usually a procession with little jeopardy for the best teams in the competition where previously they might slip up in the pool stages or lose out to a team in an easy group and not quite have everything their way.

Current pool stage is indeed a farce.

The previous format was also pretty farcical with 3 2nd placed teams qualifying, inevitably from a pool with the Italian team in it.

Ideally it would be 4 pools of 4 with top 2 qualifying, but it's tricky getting to 16 qualifiers from 3 competitions.

[CM11]

It was a bit of a myth that it was just the Italians giving easy runners up.

But it was originally two runners up from 6 pools so a fair bit of jeopardy. It then got changed to 5 groups with 3 runners up which was far less jeopardy.

The new qualification rules forced in has also contributed to the Welsh decline.

[Tichtheid]

The new qualification rules forced in has also contributed to the Welsh decline.

Have they?

Doesn't the winner of each shield in the ERC get in to the big cup? So hypothetically all the Welsh sides could finish the league from 16 to 12 but the top one will still get into the blue ribband event.

[CM11]

The new qualification rules forced in has also contributed to the Welsh decline.

Have they?

Doesn't the winner of each shield in the ERC get in to the big cup? So hypothetically all the Welsh sides could finish the league from 16 to 12 but the top one will still get into the blue ribband event.

Wales had guaranteed 3 sides. Down to 1 and in a couple of years, none.

[Tichtheid]

The new qualification rules forced in has also contributed to the Welsh decline.

Have they?

Doesn't the winner of each shield in the ERC get in to the big cup? So hypothetically all the Welsh sides could finish the league from 16 to 12 but the top one will still get into the blue ribband event.

Wales had guaranteed 3 sides. Down to 1 and in a couple of years, none.

How have the qualification rules contributed to the Welsh decline, though?

If they were finishing top 8 in the league they would be winning those places. At the moment they are at 10, 13, 14 and 15.

My team Edinburgh are 12th, I can't see how competition rules have contributed to that in any way. We were shite, that's the long and short of it.

Am I missing something?

[PornDog]

TBF, there's a lot of bleating about Leinster having an unfair advantage getting home ties, when there was no such bleating when La Rochelle and Toulouse had actual home stadium (not home country, but their own actual home stadia) semi final ties in 2021, or Exeter had in 2020. Not a peep out of anyone. But Leinster have home country advantage, earned through performance and the laws of the competition, and all of a sudden commentators are up in arms about how unfair it is.

Seriously?

You want to compare it to the two pandemic years when there were no crowds in the stadium?

That's somehow equivalent to 50,000 in the Aviva?

If anything, you're proving the point about what's been said earlier in the thread.

Well lets look at that shall we?

The accusation is that Leinster have an unfair advantage by playing all their knockout games at home. Only the semi has any actual merit to the claim, which is EPCR organised and is not being played in Leister's home (no more than Twickenham is Harlequins home, but lets park that argument for now).

So what's the advantage? The advantage is either 1. that the majority of the crowd is their own fans and they get to sleep in their own beds, or 2. that they know the 'home' field, how the wind blows and how the that corner is a little firmer ground, or whatever.

With regards to -
1. The same will be true if the game is played instead in Croke Park, or in some magical new Stadia in Belfast, Galway, Limerick or Cork. The same was true for La Rochelle when they played all their knockout games (including the final) last year in France, just as it was when Saracens played all of their knockout games (including the final) in England in 2019.
While the advantage is most definitely real, it is the same real advantage every other home semi final team has also received since forever and so the hypocrisy tag still stands regardless.

2. If it is that the advantage lies more in the unquantifiable, then the fact that 2021 and 2020 were played in front of empty stands is irrelevant to that advantage and the hypocrisy of the accusation still stands.

For what it's worth, the merits of this type of home field advantage I believe to be negligible, except maybe for Connacht if there's a gale blowing in Galway. The real advantage is and always has been that you have more of the fans there and you get to sleep in your own bed.

Either way it's a steaming pile of hypocritical dogshit!

[Uncle fester]

Leinster have been playing semis in Lansdowne Road since the very first European Cup. Why is it suddenly a 'new' issue, nearly 30 years into the comp?

No idea why, but my guess would be the abject failure of Premiership clubs and English rugby in general has reinvigorated an anti-Irish sentiment.

Funnily enough, I thought there always was a rule that semis had to be played in a stadium at least 100 or 150km from the top-seeded side's home ground. I vaguely recall Glasgow had to get permission to nominate Murrayfield as the SF location because it was too close to Glasgow but the only other option in Scotland (they've never actually needed it as they habitually lost their QF to Sarries). Have I just made that up or was there such a rule? Might be that Ireland simply doesn't have a large-enough stadium outside of Dublin.

Don't think so. Toulouse routinely play "neutral" semi final games in the soccer stadium which is in the city centre.

[CM11]

Have they?

Doesn't the winner of each shield in the ERC get in to the big cup? So hypothetically all the Welsh sides could finish the league from 16 to 12 but the top one will still get into the blue ribband event.

Wales had guaranteed 3 sides. Down to 1 and in a couple of years, none.

How have the qualification rules contributed to the Welsh decline, though?

If they were finishing top 8 in the league they would be winning those places. At the moment they are at 10, 13, 14 and 15.

My team Edinburgh are 12th, I can't see how competition rules have contributed to that in any way. We were shite, that's the long and short of it.

Am I missing something?

Scotland went from 1 guaranteed to all but one guaranteed.

The point is that if you can't promise a very good chance of HEC rugby then things start to get less enticing for Welsh rugby players to stay in Wales. This has a knock effect as the teams become less competitive and there's less overall interest in a product which was faltering anyway.

I'm not saying it was a root cause or main cause just a contributing cause. Scotland are less reliant because they have the top down, everyone working towards a common goal approach but in any event, didn't really lose a team in the HEC.

[Tichtheid]

Wales had guaranteed 3 sides. Down to 1 and in a couple of years, none.

How have the qualification rules contributed to the Welsh decline, though?

If they were finishing top 8 in the league they would be winning those places. At the moment they are at 10, 13, 14 and 15.

My team Edinburgh are 12th, I can't see how competition rules have contributed to that in any way. We were shite, that's the long and short of it.

Am I missing something?

Scotland went from 1 guaranteed to all but one guaranteed.

The point is that if you can't promise a very good chance of HEC rugby then things start to get less enticing for Welsh rugby players to stay in Wales. This has a knock effect as the teams become less competitive and there's less overall interest in a product which was faltering anyway.

I'm not saying it was a root cause or main cause just a contributing cause. Scotland are less reliant because they have the top down, everyone working towards a common goal approach but in any event, didn't really lose a team in the HEC.

Right, I get what you mean now.

I get the feeling that Gatland, and Shaun Edwards in particular, papered over some very substantial cracks in Welsh rugby, as long as the national team were winning the problems below were tolerated.

Having said that, big cup rugby is the reward, if you don't earn it you don't get it.

From an Edinburgh point of view we need to get better, I'm not going to look to competition organisers, the simple fact is that we have to win games

Having said that, I like the shield idea, there should be representatives from each constituent country in the main tournament

[Biffer]

TBF, there's a lot of bleating about Leinster having an unfair advantage getting home ties, when there was no such bleating when La Rochelle and Toulouse had actual home stadium (not home country, but their own actual home stadia) semi final ties in 2021, or Exeter had in 2020. Not a peep out of anyone. But Leinster have home country advantage, earned through performance and the laws of the competition, and all of a sudden commentators are up in arms about how unfair it is.

Seriously?

You want to compare it to the two pandemic years when there were no crowds in the stadium?

That's somehow equivalent to 50,000 in the Aviva?

If anything, you're proving the point about what's been said earlier in the thread.

Well lets look at that shall we?

The accusation is that Leinster have an unfair advantage by playing all their knockout games at home. Only the semi has any actual merit to the claim, which is EPCR organised and is not being played in Leister's home (no more than Twickenham is Harlequins home, but lets park that argument for now).

So what's the advantage? The advantage is either 1. that the majority of the crowd is their own fans and they get to sleep in their own beds, or 2. that they know the 'home' field, how the wind blows and how the that corner is a little firmer ground, or whatever.

With regards to -
1. The same will be true if the game is played instead in Croke Park, or in some magical new Stadia in Belfast, Galway, Limerick or Cork. The same was true for La Rochelle when they played all their knockout games (including the final) last year in France, just as it was when Saracens played all of their knockout games (including the final) in England in 2019.
While the advantage is most definitely real, it is the same real advantage every other home semi final team has also received since forever and so the hypocrisy tag still stands regardless.

2. If it is that the advantage lies more in the unquantifiable, then the fact that 2021 and 2020 were played in front of empty stands is irrelevant to that advantage and the hypocrisy of the accusation still stands.

For what it's worth, the merits of this type of home field advantage I believe to be negligible, except maybe for Connacht if there's a gale blowing in Galway. The real advantage is and always has been that you have more of the fans there and you get to sleep in your own bed.

Either way it's a steaming pile of hypocritical dogshit!

The original point I made, which kicked all of this off, is that it'd have been good if it was on neutral ground.

In the ensuing melee you seem to have shot off on some fucking mentalist chip on your shouldere sure now we're terribly hard done by don't you reckon bullshit, which resulted in you reaching for teams playing at home in front of empty stadia being some massive advantage.

You're really reinforcing the stereotype here.

[Uncle fester]

The final has to be selected way out. The problem is the lazy structure that sees the seeded teams get an armchair ride.

[Biffer]

The final has to be selected way out. The problem is the lazy structure that sees the seeded teams get an armchair ride.

Yeah, the structure now is awful. The four team groups was much much better, hopefully it's returning as per the rumours. Top seeded teams knowing they won't meet another good team until the QFs at least makes it a nonsense.

Fully accept that about the location, and I don't really have a problem with it. Just said it was a shame that it wasn't on neutral turf and all this shite kicked off.

[PornDog]

Seriously?

You want to compare it to the two pandemic years when there were no crowds in the stadium?

That's somehow equivalent to 50,000 in the Aviva?

If anything, you're proving the point about what's been said earlier in the thread.

Well lets look at that shall we?

The accusation is that Leinster have an unfair advantage by playing all their knockout games at home. Only the semi has any actual merit to the claim, which is EPCR organised and is not being played in Leister's home (no more than Twickenham is Harlequins home, but lets park that argument for now).

So what's the advantage? The advantage is either 1. that the majority of the crowd is their own fans and they get to sleep in their own beds, or 2. that they know the 'home' field, how the wind blows and how the that corner is a little firmer ground, or whatever.

With regards to -
1. The same will be true if the game is played instead in Croke Park, or in some magical new Stadia in Belfast, Galway, Limerick or Cork. The same was true for La Rochelle when they played all their knockout games (including the final) last year in France, just as it was when Saracens played all of their knockout games (including the final) in England in 2019.
While the advantage is most definitely real, it is the same real advantage every other home semi final team has also received since forever and so the hypocrisy tag still stands regardless.

2. If it is that the advantage lies more in the unquantifiable, then the fact that 2021 and 2020 were played in front of empty stands is irrelevant to that advantage and the hypocrisy of the accusation still stands.

For what it's worth, the merits of this type of home field advantage I believe to be negligible, except maybe for Connacht if there's a gale blowing in Galway. The real advantage is and always has been that you have more of the fans there and you get to sleep in your own bed.

Either way it's a steaming pile of hypocritical dogshit!

The original point I made, which kicked all of this off, is that it'd have been good if it was on neutral ground.

In the ensuing melee you seem to have shot off on some fucking mentalist chip on your shouldere sure now we're terribly hard done by don't you reckon bullshit, which resulted in you reaching for teams playing at home in front of empty stadia being some massive advantage.

You're really reinforcing the stereotype here.

I agree with your original point - although last year this final was in France, this year it being Ireland has a certain balance to it. Maybe next year we can go for the Threepeat in London

Why I originally responded was to explain why Paddyor, and plenty of us are a little over sensitive on this subject - it's because it is a bunch of hypocritical bullshit. We're certainly not hard done by on the pitch, but every time an Irish team shows signs of success we have Englanders* coming out of the woodwork to explain to us why it's all so unfair it is that we are successful and looking to change the rules of the competition to compensate, or otherwise denigrate that success. It's tiresome and fucking pitiful!

What stereotype?


* obviously not all, before anyone takes offence at that.

[PornDog]

The final has to be selected way out. The problem is the lazy structure that sees the seeded teams get an armchair ride.

100%
A return to proper groups and ditching the completely irrelevant round of 16 would go a long way to fixing many of the problems. I don't mind the "earned" home semi final draw as opposed to the toss of the coin as it was before, but the groups need to be contested for that to be properly fair. These groups are just fucking shite!

[lemonhead]

The final has to be selected way out. The problem is the lazy structure that sees the seeded teams get an armchair ride.

100%
A return to proper groups and ditching the completely irrelevant round of 16 would go a long way to fixing many of the problems. I don't mind the "earned" home semi final draw as opposed to the toss of the coin as it was before, but the groups need to be contested for that to be properly fair. These groups are just fucking shite!

Is it any wonder the same teams contest the final all the time.

Are they the best? Yeah, very probably - but any new pretender has a tough time breaking the mould if they're consistently playing in the incumbent's home town.

Don't mind a coin toss at all, knock out stages were always unpredictable. But that was back when there was a 2-3 month gap between quarter and semi to plan ahead. It's 2-3 weeks now, just wouldn't work.

[CM11]

What kicked this off Biffer was someone having the temerity to point out it wasn't Leinster's right to make the final and you having a hissy fit about it thinking that it was someone trying to blow smoke up Leinster's ass.

Nothing wrong with your wish for neutral ground, paddyor may have missed the tone in his reply but this was a ridiculous response

And that has no relevance to the point. Usual dickhead Irish comment. DuR wE jUsT tWo GuD fIr DeM. Try to have a worthwhile opinion rather than wanking into your own coffee occasionally.

Are you 12?

[CM11]

The final has to be selected way out. The problem is the lazy structure that sees the seeded teams get an armchair ride.

100%
A return to proper groups and ditching the completely irrelevant round of 16 would go a long way to fixing many of the problems. I don't mind the "earned" home semi final draw as opposed to the toss of the coin as it was before, but the groups need to be contested for that to be properly fair. These groups are just fucking shite!

Is it any wonder the same teams contest the final all the time.

Are they the best? Yeah, very probably - but any new pretender has a tough time breaking the mould if they're consistently playing in the incumbent's home town.

Don't mind a coin toss at all, knock out stages were always unpredictable. But that was back when there was a 2-3 month gap between quarter and semi to plan ahead. It's 2-3 weeks now, just wouldn't work.

The last time there was a 2-3 month gap between quarters and semis was 2002.