Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:55 am
Hmm. You know who was amongst the authors of that phrase, don't you?
Page 80 of 529
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:13 am
I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:39 pm
Sure not following government process is administrative law. If it is done in the way Jenrick acted with Desmond and some of the PPE contracts I believe it should be a criminal matter. But sure it's interpretation.
Blair's track record isn't very good when you look at it. Very few achievements, a lot of diasters: Iraq, the PFI hospitals, very little of note actually achieved.
Morally perfect leaders aren't required. I wouldn't be bothered by politicians enacting policies I don't agree with. It's the contracts going to friends and buying time with politicians I don't like. Don't you want leaders who aren't giving peerages for money/cash for access? It's just not very democratic.
I remember a list of 100 achievements Labour had brought in - this was in the run up to the 2010 election, I can't find it now but there were a lot of things that were significant imo, the setting up of a minimum wage, repeal of section 22 and bringing in same sex marriage, Sure Start programme, large increases in doctor and nurse numbers, the PFI problem is with the way the hospital building programme was funded, but the hospitals were built and/or expanded and they were needed.
I witnessed a huge change in the NHs first hand during that period as my daughter had ear problems and had to have grommets fitted. These problems continued over several years and the ENT department went from being hugely crowded with screaming kids, over-worked and stressed-out staff rushing about, dank waiting rooms where you'd have to sit for hours before being seen by doctors who really needed a break, that was around 1998. By the time my daughter was discharged the ENT was a calm place, nicely decorated where there weren't many waiting and you'd be seen within ten minutes of arrival.
There was a brand new children's hospital built on the site and a new medical school.
That same medical school had a proviso put on it, as did the other new med schools, that they had to offer outreach programmes to state school kids who were woefully under-represented in the profession. This was the idea of Gordon Brown.
The same daughter attended the outreach programme, it was held on the first Saturday of the month over several years, the guy who ran the show told us at the first day, which included parents, that the problem wasn't with the quality of candidates from state schools, it was that their applications were rubbish, whereas the fee-paying schools were set up more or less as feeders for medical schools and the Russell Group unis.
Brown's idea was to redress this imbalance.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:10 pm
My Mum spent a fair bit of time in hospital in the mid 90s as she had a series of strokes and the hospitals were legitimately grim at that time. New Labour did oversee quite a big improvement in the NHS experience for patients from what I could see.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:47 pm
And now the Tories are doing their best to bring the 90s NHS back. And scoop out the justice system.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:31 pm
Agree! In the 90s the medical workforce was a mess. Small number of consultants and most services and OOH services delivered by trainees or by hospital doctors, ie not consultants, who worked over 100 hours a week. Huge reliance on importing doctors from old commonwealth countries and then treating them badly - vast majority of Consultants were white middle class from private school/Russell Group Uni. Safety and quality of care pretty dodgy. The intro of the EWTR and reduction in hours to ave of 48 hours a week for trainees, reform of medical training and education at both under and post graduate level and a planned increase in consultant numbers enabled a move to a consultant delivered service as opposed to a consultant led service. New contracts were implemented and the whole workforce was modernised (Modernising Medical Careers) to fit what the NHS needed going forward. We have seen a significant increase in consultant numbers and a better balance between consultants and trainees. However GP workforce remains an issue and the old independent practitioner model is probably not going to survive for lots of reasons. Problem is that this current bunch of twats in Gov see privatisation of the primary care workforce/GP practices ass the way forward and we have already seen significant investment in it from US companies.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:13 amI like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:39 pm
Sure not following government process is administrative law. If it is done in the way Jenrick acted with Desmond and some of the PPE contracts I believe it should be a criminal matter. But sure it's interpretation.
Blair's track record isn't very good when you look at it. Very few achievements, a lot of diasters: Iraq, the PFI hospitals, very little of note actually achieved.
Morally perfect leaders aren't required. I wouldn't be bothered by politicians enacting policies I don't agree with. It's the contracts going to friends and buying time with politicians I don't like. Don't you want leaders who aren't giving peerages for money/cash for access? It's just not very democratic.
I remember a list of 100 achievements Labour had brought in - this was in the run up to the 2010 election, I can't find it now but there were a lot of things that were significant imo, the setting up of a minimum wage, repeal of section 22 and bringing in same sex marriage, Sure Start programme, large increases in doctor and nurse numbers, the PFI problem is with the way the hospital building programme was funded, but the hospitals were built and/or expanded and they were needed.
I witnessed a huge change in the NHs first hand during that period as my daughter had ear problems and had to have grommets fitted. These problems continued over several years and the ENT department went from being hugely crowded with screaming kids, over-worked and stressed-out staff rushing about, dank waiting rooms where you'd have to sit for hours before being seen by doctors who really needed a break, that was around 1998. By the time my daughter was discharged the ENT was a calm place, nicely decorated where there weren't many waiting and you'd be seen within ten minutes of arrival.
There was a brand new children's hospital built on the site and a new medical school.
That same medical school had a proviso put on it, as did the other new med schools, that they had to offer outreach programmes to state school kids who were woefully under-represented in the profession. This was the idea of Gordon Brown.
The same daughter attended the outreach programme, it was held on the first Saturday of the month over several years, the guy who ran the show told us at the first day, which included parents, that the problem wasn't with the quality of candidates from state schools, it was that their applications were rubbish, whereas the fee-paying schools were set up more or less as feeders for medical schools and the Russell Group unis.
Brown's idea was to redress this imbalance.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:18 pm
Didn't they also spend all the money in the piggy bank doing it?
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:19 pm
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:35 pm
They never went beyond the Maastricht criteria of 3% of GDP for deficit and 60% of GDP debt until the world-wide crash. However, that doesn't include the aforementioned PFI contracts, which should have been funded by taxation, rather than shifting it off the books like they did.
edit, I've just had a look and the value of PFI contracts as at 2010 was just north of £270Bn.
After very quick look at the tax receipts from 2000-2010 I estimate that an overall increase of around 0.5% tax would have paid off the PFI bill, and that could have been spread from the broadest shoulders (international conglomerates and large companies) to little or no increases for small businesses and private individuals.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:15 pm
No argument from me. PFI was a bad idea.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:35 pmThey never went beyond the Maastricht criteria of 3% of GDP for deficit and 60% of GDP debt until the world-wide crash. However, that doesn't include the aforementioned PFI contracts, which should have been funded by taxation, rather than shifting it off the books like they did.
edit, I've just had a look and the value of PFI contracts as at 2010 was just north of £270Bn.
After very quick look at the tax receipts from 2000-2010 I estimate that an overall increase of around 0.5% tax would have paid off the PFI bill, and that could have been spread from the broadest shoulders (international conglomerates and large companies) to little or no increases for small businesses and private individuals.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:06 pm
Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:15 pmNo argument from me. PFI was a bad idea.Tichtheid wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:35 pmThey never went beyond the Maastricht criteria of 3% of GDP for deficit and 60% of GDP debt until the world-wide crash. However, that doesn't include the aforementioned PFI contracts, which should have been funded by taxation, rather than shifting it off the books like they did.
edit, I've just had a look and the value of PFI contracts as at 2010 was just north of £270Bn.
After very quick look at the tax receipts from 2000-2010 I estimate that an overall increase of around 0.5% tax would have paid off the PFI bill, and that could have been spread from the broadest shoulders (international conglomerates and large companies) to little or no increases for small businesses and private individuals.
Sorry, that was me talking to the ether rather than directing my point at you :-)
A few years ago I went through debt and deficit over a long period of time in the UK and looked at public services and how they were funded etc. If called for I could probably do so again because I don't have the numbers to hand, but what I found was contrary to perceived wisdom, Labour governments have been more financially secure and astute, whilst improving public services, education and health care, where Conservative governments have slashed services whilst being profligate with public spending.
Some might express outrage at this and point to the falling deficit since 2010, but that was always going to happen when QE was reversed or slowed, and there can be no argument that services have been decimated.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:59 am
That's true in the US as well the Dems are much better than the Republicans at managing the economy. It's just parroted so often to be the reverse that the right wing parties re best with money it's accepted as cast iron truth.
Of course if you're a total lunatic you could blame Labour for the GFC. But not even worth engaging with people who do that.
Of course if you're a total lunatic you could blame Labour for the GFC. But not even worth engaging with people who do that.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:19 pm
Dominic Raab
Dead man walking after that performance.
Well he would be if we had a PM that was fit for purpose
Dead man walking after that performance.
Well he would be if we had a PM that was fit for purpose
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:49 pm
'Zombie Government' makes for a good description of this towering shower of shite
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:58 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58394903
Interesting article... Seems brexit is a minor part of the larger problem being public infrastructure such as public toilets are dreadful. I wonder why that is?
Interesting article... Seems brexit is a minor part of the larger problem being public infrastructure such as public toilets are dreadful. I wonder why that is?
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:03 am
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:06 am
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:38 am
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:49 am
Then they just need to ask how many of these con artists were referred thru the fast track for Tory donors !
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:25 pm
Dave has brought it backHal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:35 am I see that the BBC have axed The Mash Report. What possible reason could Tory donor and Tory appointee BBC director General Tim Davies, who has set out his stall against woke lefties who are rude about the Government and Brexit, have against this satirical show?
And, "It's shit" isn't a reason as Mrs Brown's Boys has been renewed to 2026.
Along with the proposed laws to let the police decide what is and isn't valid protest, the castration of the media in general and the total and wilful lack of accountability to Parliament or society exhibited by the Government and its chums, the suppression of any form dissent is really disturbing.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:59 pm
Mrs Browns Boys renewed until when??!?! Defund the BBC. Etc etc.sturginho wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:25 pmDave has brought it backHal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:35 am I see that the BBC have axed The Mash Report. What possible reason could Tory donor and Tory appointee BBC director General Tim Davies, who has set out his stall against woke lefties who are rude about the Government and Brexit, have against this satirical show?
And, "It's shit" isn't a reason as Mrs Brown's Boys has been renewed to 2026.
Along with the proposed laws to let the police decide what is and isn't valid protest, the castration of the media in general and the total and wilful lack of accountability to Parliament or society exhibited by the Government and its chums, the suppression of any form dissent is really disturbing.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:57 pm
Ireland will have it's revenge for BrexitScarfaceClaw wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:59 pmMrs Browns Boys renewed until when??!?! Defund the BBC. Etc etc.sturginho wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:25 pmDave has brought it backHal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:35 am I see that the BBC have axed The Mash Report. What possible reason could Tory donor and Tory appointee BBC director General Tim Davies, who has set out his stall against woke lefties who are rude about the Government and Brexit, have against this satirical show?
And, "It's shit" isn't a reason as Mrs Brown's Boys has been renewed to 2026.
Along with the proposed laws to let the police decide what is and isn't valid protest, the castration of the media in general and the total and wilful lack of accountability to Parliament or society exhibited by the Government and its chums, the suppression of any form dissent is really disturbing.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:53 pm
Thankfully, I think this renewed contract is only for the annual Christmas special, which can easily be avoided, and not for multiple episodes of this shit.ScarfaceClaw wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:59 pmMrs Browns Boys renewed until when??!?! Defund the BBC. Etc etc.sturginho wrote: ↑Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:25 pmDave has brought it backHal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:35 am I see that the BBC have axed The Mash Report. What possible reason could Tory donor and Tory appointee BBC director General Tim Davies, who has set out his stall against woke lefties who are rude about the Government and Brexit, have against this satirical show?
And, "It's shit" isn't a reason as Mrs Brown's Boys has been renewed to 2026.
Along with the proposed laws to let the police decide what is and isn't valid protest, the castration of the media in general and the total and wilful lack of accountability to Parliament or society exhibited by the Government and its chums, the suppression of any form dissent is really disturbing.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:31 pm
Well summed up by The Spectator's Katy Balls
https://www.theguardian.com/commentis ... e-johnsonDominic Raab’s appearance before the foreign affairs select committee was more notable for what he didn’t say than what he did. After a fortnight of criticism over his department’s handling of the crisis in Afghanistan, the foreign secretary left plenty of questions unanswered.
In a tetchy appearance, Raab refused to be drawn 10 times on when exactly he went on holiday to Crete, could not put a number on the number of Afghans eligible to be resettled in Britain who were left behind, and blamed military intelligence failures for his being taken by surprise by the speed at which Kabul fell.
It’s a sign of how much pressure Raab is currently under that his performance is being talked up by MPs as a relative success. “It didn’t move the dial either way, which for him is a net plus,” says one sympathetic member of the government. “We don’t look good but America looks worse,” says one government aide.
What it did do, however, was shed light on the blame game unfolding in Whitehall – and what the whole debacle is now turning into for the majority of the Conservative party.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:03 am
Tories breaking their manifesto promise not to raise tax by raising NI to pay for social care.
Smart policy, workers (majority of who do not vote Tory) paying a tax pensioners (majority of who do vote Tory) don't pay to pay for the pensioners care.
Smart policy, workers (majority of who do not vote Tory) paying a tax pensioners (majority of who do vote Tory) don't pay to pay for the pensioners care.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:13 am
Theresa May lost a gimme election because she proposed asset rich pensioners pay some for the cost of their own care so this is politically inevitable.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:12 am
Indeed, increasing the tax burden of the poorest section of society to pay for the wealthiest section of society because the wealthiest vote for you. Not good long term politics but who cares.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:23 am
Could be really cheeky and ask where the self-employed who ‘pay’ tax come in this scale of Tory-Not Tory.I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:03 am Tories breaking their manifesto promise not to raise tax by raising NI to pay for social care.
Smart policy, workers (majority of who do not vote Tory) paying a tax pensioners (majority of who do vote Tory) don't pay to pay for the pensioners care.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:41 am
Is there data on this? If so happy to follow the findings.shaggy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:23 amCould be really cheeky and ask where the self-employed who ‘pay’ tax come in this scale of Tory-Not Tory.I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:03 am Tories breaking their manifesto promise not to raise tax by raising NI to pay for social care.
Smart policy, workers (majority of who do not vote Tory) paying a tax pensioners (majority of who do vote Tory) don't pay to pay for the pensioners care.
There's clear data on pensioners voting Tory, people working not voting Tory. That's why I said it.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:34 pm
As far as I am aware there are approximately 4m self employed in the UK, seems like a considerable number not to be included?I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:41 amIs there data on this? If so happy to follow the findings.shaggy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:23 amCould be really cheeky and ask where the self-employed who ‘pay’ tax come in this scale of Tory-Not Tory.I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:03 am Tories breaking their manifesto promise not to raise tax by raising NI to pay for social care.
Smart policy, workers (majority of who do not vote Tory) paying a tax pensioners (majority of who do vote Tory) don't pay to pay for the pensioners care.
There's clear data on pensioners voting Tory, people working not voting Tory. That's why I said it.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:56 pm
shaggy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:34 pmAs far as I am aware there are approximately 4m self employed in the UK, seems like a considerable number not to be included?I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:41 amIs there data on this? If so happy to follow the findings.
There's clear data on pensioners voting Tory, people working not voting Tory. That's why I said it.
I assume gig economy/zero hour contract workers count as self-employed?
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:24 pm
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:04 pm
Isn't it just more the case that pensioners vote as a bloc far more reliably than younger cohorts? All parties try and pander to them - Labour made a massive deal of Theresa Mays proposed care reforms in 2017 (so called death tax).
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:32 pm
Really …. Would love to see stats supporting such a contrarian statement.I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:59 am That's true in the US as well the Dems are much better than the Republicans at managing the economy. It's just parroted so often to be the reverse that the right wing parties re best with money it's accepted as cast iron truth.
Of course if you're a total lunatic you could blame Labour for the GFC. But not even worth engaging with people who do that.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:47 pm
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:56 pm
Hope you have a free Friday night to get stuck into this:Ymx wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:32 pmReally …. Would love to see stats supporting such a contrarian statement.I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:59 am That's true in the US as well the Dems are much better than the Republicans at managing the economy. It's just parroted so often to be the reverse that the right wing parties re best with money it's accepted as cast iron truth.
Of course if you're a total lunatic you could blame Labour for the GFC. But not even worth engaging with people who do that.
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/P ... 2e27c9957f
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:51 pm
Who'd have thunked it?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... -seekersThere are eight times as many refugees and asylum seekers living in Labour-run parts of Britain as in Conservative areas, analysis by the Guardian has shown, amid growing pressure on ministers to fix the “completely immoral” dispersal system.
Victoria Atkins, the minister responsible for the Afghan resettlement scheme, has urged all councils to do their bit, yet her own local authority, East Lindsey district council in Lincolnshire, has supported only one asylum seeker since 2016 and six Syrian refugees in January to March of 2020. Conversely, Middlesbrough, which has a similar population, is home to 550 asylum seekers – the highest proportion of any local authority in England.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:57 pm
2013. Old, doesn’t include last decade. You can’t erase Trump that easily. Or half of Obama. Invalid!I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:56 pmHope you have a free Friday night to get stuck into this:Ymx wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:32 pmReally …. Would love to see stats supporting such a contrarian statement.I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:59 am That's true in the US as well the Dems are much better than the Republicans at managing the economy. It's just parroted so often to be the reverse that the right wing parties re best with money it's accepted as cast iron truth.
Of course if you're a total lunatic you could blame Labour for the GFC. But not even worth engaging with people who do that.
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/P ... 2e27c9957f
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:29 pm
Okay, I'll only post evidence that backs up your opinions for validity.Ymx wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:57 pm2013. Old, doesn’t include last decade. You can’t erase Trump that easily. Or half of Obama. Invalid!I like neeps wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:56 pmHope you have a free Friday night to get stuck into this:
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/P ... 2e27c9957f
It's the entire postwar period so you're saying 60 years of evidence isn't relevant because it misses the last 10? Quite a bizarre opinion to have.
My new statement will be in the post war period until 2013 the Democrats have been better than the Republicans at managing the economy and I will let you know the latter end of Obama and Trump when the evidence is published. Which in any case is a better sample size as it's much larger.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:32 pm
‘‘Twas tongue in cheek. But will take a look.
US aside.
I’ve personally not observed better “relative” economies under Labour than Tory/National/…
It’s hard to isolate and remove the global influence as well. But perhaps that study does that.
I think Tories did well to help us recover from the situation they inherited.
Early noughties were great from tech, and in the UK it flourished. But was that a shared phenomenon globally. Tech bubble burst hit but wasn’t a wrecker like 2008.
I think in NZ, NZ flourished under National, that Jacindas government picked up and probably has good stats from the previous foundations.
US aside.
I’ve personally not observed better “relative” economies under Labour than Tory/National/…
It’s hard to isolate and remove the global influence as well. But perhaps that study does that.
I think Tories did well to help us recover from the situation they inherited.
Early noughties were great from tech, and in the UK it flourished. But was that a shared phenomenon globally. Tech bubble burst hit but wasn’t a wrecker like 2008.
I think in NZ, NZ flourished under National, that Jacindas government picked up and probably has good stats from the previous foundations.
Re: Tory Scum
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:41 pm
Obama v Trump years, bearing in mind that BO took over as the crash happened
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... a-economy/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... a-economy/