NPR

Botham, Stokes and Flintoff are all slightly different: Flintoff became a bowling all-rounder (having started off as a batsman, iirc), Stokes has become a batting all-rounder (having got in more for his bowling, I think?), and Botham was more even between the two and genuinely could have been in the team for either discipline for much of his career.

Stokes and Botham are similar in that each seem(ed) capable of winning matches on their own (even if Willis is unfairly overlooked for Headingly '81, for example); by contrast, while Flintoff won MoM awards (including with the bat, e.g. Trent Bridge (?) '05 where he got a ton almost one-handed) and was charismatic, he never kept Harmison, Jones, Tresco, Vaughan, Pietersen et al in the shade. Also, I would say that Freddie was a bowler of great spells who could break key partnerships or take 3 quick wickets to turn a game, rather than a Great Bowler; a little like Broad, imo. So his impact is not fully reflected in stats.

Perhaps Freddie made the least of his potential and Stokes is currently making the most of his (for which he deserves immense credit).

Way before my time, but apparently Tony Greig deserves to be spoken of in the same category. Gough was never an all-rounder really - Swann was more rounded, for one. Honourable mentions to short-lived all-rounder careers (through flakiness, late development, early death or mortal fear) go to Chris Lewis, Craig White, Ben Holioake and early-career Stuart Broad.

As an aside, one of Flintoff's most-expounded skills was to bowl a "heavy ball" that appeared to cow batsmen with its power rather than speed. I've never understood how the physics of that could work. Surely, once the ball's left the hand, it's all down to weight of ball, velocity and angle of bounce?

FujiKiwi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:46 am My only memory of Botham is the 1992 World Cup, where he still played well. I was too young to follow him in his prime.

I don't have the stats in front of me, but I wonder if his legend is a bit bigger than his actual achievements. Were his exploits that much greater than Stokes'? I doubt it.

In his prime he was a match winner with both bat and ball. Able to swing it both ways and quick enough to hurry good batsmen. There are good reasons he was Englands top wicket taker for a long time.
Like Stokes, he was able to grind out runs when the team needed him to, although I would put Stokes ahead of him as a batsman.
Again, wear and tear took its toll on his body but he still earned his place as a medium pace swing bowler whose reputation got him wickets with some rank long hops.

Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:55 am

Mahoney wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:42 am It's a tough one; he was my hero as a very small kid, but my age means that I actually remember watching Botham mostly as he declined. Plus he never really performed against the best (the West Indies). And while it says nothing about his cricketing ability, he's so dislikable...

He was a better bowler at his best than Stokes, but Stokes' batting at the moment is another level.

It's heresy, but I think I'd go Stokes, Botham, Flintoff.

Freddie had quite a long period, in his youth, when he wasn't allowed to bowl, to protect his body. I remember watching him play for the under 19s at Southampton, where he played as a batsman and didn't bowl at all. He was a very dominant batsman and peppered the boundary with some huges 6s, including one that cleared the Pavillion.

My memory is hazy, but didn't he suffer from back problems that affected his bowling in the early part of his career?

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:45 am

Mahoney wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:42 am It's a tough one; he was my hero as a very small kid, but my age means that I actually remember watching Botham mostly as he declined. Plus he never really performed against the best (the West Indies). And while it says nothing about his cricketing ability, he's so dislikable...

If likeability is the criteria:

1) Toothache
2) Flintoff
3) Daylight
4) Stokes
5) Moonlight
6) Bads AIDS
7) Botham

Haha, I had no idea that Botham had such a bad reputation.

I don't know if anyone else watched the BBC's coverage of old classic tests against the West Indies that was on over the last couple of months or so?

The big takeaway for me is how the hell was Botham ever a ladies man? A slightly tubby bloke with a dodgy haircut - he did staggeringly well for himself.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:51 pm I don't know if anyone else watched the BBC's coverage of old classic tests against the West Indies that was on over the last couple of months or so?

The big takeaway for me is how the hell was Botham ever a ladies man? A slightly tubby bloke with a dodgy haircut - he did staggeringly well for himself.

Money + fame + confidence.

See Trump, D for further examples.

FujiKiwi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:48 am

And 1 guest wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:40 am We don't really have one of our own!

I grew up playing cricket (badly) and it was the only sport on TV during the summer.

Is cricket played at school in Scotland? I'm just assuming there's more (but still limited) cricket in the big cities and in the lowlands?

My uncle and cousin in Edinburgh are very involved in the cricket scene there - in the Edinburgh area there seems to be a very similar level of participation to England with perhaps more of a middle class slant. Not sure the same is necessarily true in Glasgow. Season is shorter (we'll usually play well into September whereas IIRC the Scottish season very much ends in August).

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:22 pm

FujiKiwi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:48 am

And 1 guest wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:40 am We don't really have one of our own!

I grew up playing cricket (badly) and it was the only sport on TV during the summer.

Is cricket played at school in Scotland? I'm just assuming there's more (but still limited) cricket in the big cities and in the lowlands?

My uncle and cousin in Edinburgh are very involved in the cricket scene there - in the Edinburgh area there seems to be a very similar level of participation to England with perhaps more of a middle class slant. Not sure the same is necessarily true in Glasgow. Season is shorter (we'll usually play well into September whereas IIRC the Scottish season very much ends in August).

Yeah, it tails off rapidly in September as it gets to feckin cold.

However, playing until 9 o’clock at night in Scotland is really common, given how light it stays at night in June and July.

FujiKiwi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:09 am Assuming Stokes, Freddie and Botham are in the top 5 England all rounders of all time, how would English fans rank them, and who would round out the top 5?

The kiwi top 5 is Richard Hadlee and Chris Cairns.

I’d have Tony Greig at No.4. If it wasn’t for his association with the Packer stuff I think his record and reputation would be much enhanced.

Un Pilier wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:40 pm

FujiKiwi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:09 am Assuming Stokes, Freddie and Botham are in the top 5 England all rounders of all time, how would English fans rank them, and who would round out the top 5?

The kiwi top 5 is Richard Hadlee and Chris Cairns.

I’d have Tony Greig at No.4. If it wasn’t for his association with the Packer stuff I think his record and reputation would be much enhanced.

Right now, the all time ICC rankings have it as Botham, Grieg, Flintoff, Stokes, in terms of highest ICC points ranking.

At the rate he's going, Stokes could yet end up as a specialist batsman, but if he can keep chipping in 2-3 wickets a match with the occasional fivefer, he'll be above Grieg in another couple of years. The development of his batting ability has been astonishing

For the first few years of his international career, Botham was on a different level even to Stokes - he was averaging nearly 50 with the bat and 21 with the ball for about 5 years. This, combined with some jaw dropping displays (on a par with Stokes) cemented his legend.

Sadly, the latter part of his career (which was certainly affected by injury - not helped by his lifestyle and weight) was no better than adequate.

As others have pointed out, Flintoff only hit the real heights for a couple of years. But *that* over to Ponting remains one of the best I've ever seen and Stokes hasn't yet shown he can reach that level as a bowler.

Stokes is going through an amazing period and is already ahead of Freddy for me. He needs to keep it going for a while yet to be ahead of peak Botham for me even if he ultimately ends up with better career stats.

A6D6E6 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:43 pm For the first few years of his international career, Botham was on a different level even to Stokes - he was averaging nearly 50 with the bat and 21 with the ball for about 5 years. This, combined with some jaw dropping displays (on a par with Stokes) cemented his legend.

Sadly, the latter part of his career (which was certainly affected by injury - not helped by his lifestyle and weight) was no better than adequate.

As others have pointed out, Flintoff only hit the real heights for a couple of years. But *that* over to Ponting remains one of the best I've ever seen and Stokes hasn't yet shown he can reach that level as a bowler.

Stokes is going through an amazing period and is already ahead of Freddy for me. He needs to keep it going for a while yet to be ahead of peak Botham for me even if he ultimately ends up with better career stats.

All true. It has to be said that Botham is in the top 10 of all time in the ICC rankings as a bowler, and I think the only played that makes the top 10 as an all rounder and a specialist

If Stokes can keep going with the bat he could do the same in reverse

England have picked some insane number of bowlers, Stokes playing as a bat only. WI win the toss, put England in, and immediately get Sibley dead LBW.

Root in at 3, Stokes will be in at 4. Curran and Crawley made way for Anderson and Archer. So we've got 5 bowlers even without Stokes, which is, well...

Buttler at 6 is a concern. He could really do with some runs.

It's just Ed Smith insanity. Getting one half decent innings out of him every 20 isn't enough.

It's not even as if we bat deep - on current form Archer, Broad & Anderson are all number 11s.

Luckily for England, Gabriel's broken himself again. It was a bizarre call to pick him for this Test; he was all over the shop in the 2nd Test and clearly was struggling with injury. With such a short turnaround he was a big risk for this game.

He's just pulled up twice and pulled himself out of the attack. Walking off the field now.

We make a great pair - we can't fucking bat and they can't fucking bowl.

Mahoney wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:43 am We make a great pair - we can't fucking bat and they can't fucking bowl.

Well plagiarised Sir

Proper old school cricket. Fitness, meh.

Looking forward to some quick singles in the WI innings.

Would be nice to not have the Professional Northerner's sniggering on commentary. Cornwall's already produced an absolute peach of a delivery. Not sure how he gets so much spin, just looks like he's turning his arm over.

Root run out. Looked like a reasonable call for a run to begin with but Root was way off. Not sure if he was just slow.

Wonderful fielding

Cornwall is a fecking unit. I’m guessing he won’t be taking too many sharp singles. Mind you, look at Joe Root and his attempt at one.

Lovely innings from Pope yesterday. I hope he can go on this morning. Good from Buttler too, albeit against a tired attack on a fairly innocuous surface. Hope the weather allows the game to progress today.

And 1 guest wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:21 am Lovely innings from Pope yesterday. I hope he can go on this morning. Good from Buttler too, albeit against a tired attack on a fairly innocuous surface. Hope the weather allows the game to progress today.

The forecast is slightly more encouraging than it looked earlier.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:42 am Luckily for England, Gabriel's broken himself again. It was a bizarre call to pick him for this Test; he was all over the shop in the 2nd Test and clearly was struggling with injury. With such a short turnaround he was a big risk for this game.

He's just pulled up twice and pulled himself out of the attack. Walking off the field now.

Gabriel is a miss imo. [Oh he's back no balling and also having Pope dropped!]

Whilst he was indeed "all over the shop", he also beat the bat many times on the morning of the second day. Sibley and Stokes were lucky to bat through to lunchtime, unparted, after which the wicket became much easier.

With a long tail, fingers crossed that we can go on to consolidate the batting recovery led so classily by Pope yesterday evening.

Bad drop by Cornwall there.

Windies excellent so far. Gabriel stopped bowling no-balls long enough to get over Cornwall's drop and castled Pope instead. Now Roach gets Woakes inside edging onto the stumps.

Now, I love me some Chris Woakes, but I feel now's a good time to point out that England has far too much faith in his current batting form. He scored a brilliant 137* against India, but these are his scores since then: 8, 4, 0, 13, 37*, 37, 32, 5, 1, 2, 6, 0, 32, 0, 0, 1 for an average of 11.86.

That's 10 matches, stretching back to 2018 - not an insubstantial run of games or time.

Buttler gone now. Another excellent ball by Gabriel, caught in the slips.

In isolation, an excellent innings by Jos, but I think a lot of fans will be taking the long view and wondering whether this was bad for England overall - not a big enough score to drag England out of trouble, but big enough to give him a longer run in the side despite his inconsistency and his mediocre keeping.

Now Buttler goes. Good bowling by these two but England are throwing away a great position.

Holder with another sharp low catch in the slips. Archer gone.

Windies doing the business this morning.

Broad doing his level best to rattle the Windies and succeeding masterfully - he's thrashed his way to 39 off 25 and they've totally abandoned their plans. Getting up to a half decent innings total now.

Broad has now reached the third fastest test 50 in English history. 33 balls!

Excellent from Broad but Windies seem to have lost the plot.

That's what a free scoring tailender does for you! Finally out, 62 off 45 balls. Turned it round completely - England 356/9 and hoping Bess can get a few more.

England end up going beyond 350 anyway, Windies will be disappointed they let that good first hour come undone.

batting after lunch with the new ball is going to be very tough.

England will be expecting to have windies 3/4 down in the next session.

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:08 pm England end up going beyond 350 anyway, Windies will be disappointed they let that good first hour come undone.

batting after lunch with the new ball is going to be very tough.

England will be expecting to have windies 3/4 down in the next session.

And they have

Jimmy hasn’t lost it, has he. Hugely skilful.

Cricket has to sort out the farce of going off for bad light when there are floodlights.