Aircraft thread

[laurent]

I am not in Toulouse and not a mechanician.

I do leave not far from snecma though

[Torquemada 1420]

I am not in Toulouse and not a mechanician.

I do leave not far from snecma though

Just a slightly odd choice of video!

[laurent]

I am not in Toulouse and not a mechanician.

I do leave not far from snecma though

Just a slightly odd choice of video!

Latest is the opposite

Restauration is important

[Torquemada 1420]

I am not in Toulouse and not a mechanician.

I do leave not far from snecma though

Just a slightly odd choice of video!

Latest is the opposite

Restauration is important

Does look like a Gannet minus contra-rotator.

[GogLais]

Just a slightly odd choice of video!

Latest is the opposite

Restauration is important

Does look like a Gannet minus contra-rotator.

Form follows function.

[GogLais]

a spot of riveting

Is Alize French for Gannet?

Not as ugly ... :P same type of missions

Navy aircrafts have wind names (Alizé are trade winds) Gannet are fou de bassans

Interestingly (?) Bass Rock in the Firth of Forth is one the largest gannet colonies in the world.

[TheFrog]

Dear me,

You boys are some serious airplanes geeks

If you ever happen to visit DC, I strongly recommend you stop at the Udvar-Hazy museum next door to Dulles airport. Best aerospace museum in the world.

[GogLais]

Dear me,

You boys are some serious airplanes geeks

If you ever happen to visit DC, I strongly recommend you stop at the Udvar-Hazy museum next door to Dulles airport. Best aerospace museum in the world.

I have an I suppose emotional interest in that era in the 1950s when the UK was still trying to hang on as a world power and was still just about able to single-handedly produce world class planes like the Hunter and Canberra. What has stunned me is that the RAF lost 145 Meteors in 1953 alone, about the total number of Typhoons that we have in service.

[TheFrog]

Dear me,

You boys are some serious airplanes geeks

If you ever happen to visit DC, I strongly recommend you stop at the Udvar-Hazy museum next door to Dulles airport. Best aerospace museum in the world.

I have an I suppose emotional interest in that era in the 1950s when the UK was still trying to hang on as a world power and was still just about able to single-handedly produce world class planes like the Hunter and Canberra. What has stunned me is that the RAF lost 145 Meteors in 1953 alone, about the total number of Typhoons that we have in service.

Is it nostalgy for the grand past of Britannia or also a genuine interest in engineering and/or flight?

I have always dreamed about flight, but I am more Saint-Exupery for his writing than for his technical prowess. In other words, I am the typical consumer of dreams served to me, rather than the hard working engineer type who make these dreams come true. As such I have great admiration for people who understand the "how" and work to better it and make these ideas reality.

One thing I regret with the industry in general is the death of engineering as the heart of its development, in favor of financial KPIs that are killing adventure and progress.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Dear me,

You boys are some serious airplanes geeks

If you ever happen to visit DC, I strongly recommend you stop at the Udvar-Hazy museum next door to Dulles airport. Best aerospace museum in the world.

I have an I suppose emotional interest in that era in the 1950s when the UK was still trying to hang on as a world power and was still just about able to single-handedly produce world class planes like the Hunter and Canberra. What has stunned me is that the RAF lost 145 Meteors in 1953 alone, about the total number of Typhoons that we have in service.

Is it nostalgy for the grand past of Britannia or also a genuine interest in engineering and/or flight?

I have always dreamed about flight, but I am more Saint-Exupery for his writing than for his technical prowess. In other words, I am the typical consumer of dreams served to me, rather than the hard working engineer type who make these dreams come true. As such I have great admiration for people who understand the "how" and work to better it and make these ideas reality.

One thing I regret with the industry in general is the death of engineering as the heart of its development, in favor of financial KPIs that are killing adventure and progress.

That looks worth a trip. An impressive list of rare aircraft and 'last surviving' ones.

I recently read the autobiography of Sir Stanley Hooker - 'not much of an engineer' If you are interested in pre and postwar aircraft engines it's a good read.

[GogLais]

Dear me,

You boys are some serious airplanes geeks

If you ever happen to visit DC, I strongly recommend you stop at the Udvar-Hazy museum next door to Dulles airport. Best aerospace museum in the world.

I have an I suppose emotional interest in that era in the 1950s when the UK was still trying to hang on as a world power and was still just about able to single-handedly produce world class planes like the Hunter and Canberra. What has stunned me is that the RAF lost 145 Meteors in 1953 alone, about the total number of Typhoons that we have in service.

Is it nostalgy for the grand past of Britannia or also a genuine interest in engineering and/or flight?

A bit of both really but not in a wishing we could have the Empire back sort of way. Definitely a genuine interest, I somehow ended up with a degree in engineering but took a different career route.

[petej]

Dear me,

You boys are some serious airplanes geeks

If you ever happen to visit DC, I strongly recommend you stop at the Udvar-Hazy museum next door to Dulles airport. Best aerospace museum in the world.

I have an I suppose emotional interest in that era in the 1950s when the UK was still trying to hang on as a world power and was still just about able to single-handedly produce world class planes like the Hunter and Canberra. What has stunned me is that the RAF lost 145 Meteors in 1953 alone, about the total number of Typhoons that we have in service.

Is it nostalgy for the grand past of Britannia or also a genuine interest in engineering and/or flight?

I have always dreamed about flight, but I am more Saint-Exupery for his writing than for his technical prowess. In other words, I am the typical consumer of dreams served to me, rather than the hard working engineer type who make these dreams come true. As such I have great admiration for people who understand the "how" and work to better it and make these ideas reality.

One thing I regret with the industry in general is the death of engineering as the heart of its development, in favor of financial KPIs that are killing adventure and progress.

KPI's are frequently shit. Real problem I've found is that the stupid cost cutting never hits the twats who push it as they get promoted and move on before it goes to shit. I am 100% sure that 737max and Trent 1000 issues will be cost cutting related and it certainly won't have saved Boeing and RR any money.

[Torquemada 1420]

KPI's are frequently shit. Real problem I've found is that the stupid cost cutting never hits the twats who push it as they get promoted and move on before it goes to shit. I am 100% sure that 737max and Trent 1000 issues will be cost cutting related and it certainly won't have saved Boeing and RR any money.

KPIs, like nearly every other target based metric deployed, usually result in sub optimal or negative outcomes as those under scrutiny simply attempt to bend the system in order to meet the KPIs rather than the intended objective of the KPI.

A trivial example is the "we will answer all customer phone calls in 3 rings". The objective has to be to answer the customer's query. Instead, "Richie" in Bangalore picks up the call in 2 rings only to tell the customer he can't understand what she is saying. KPIs show massive uplift in performance. Customers are even more p*ssed off than having not gotten through at all (at least saved the price of the phone call).

737 Max is a cost cutting issue which is all rooted in the difference in cost and time for new type approval versus that for upgrade/mod for an existing, approved type. Hence the 737 Max purporting to be the lineage of a 1950s design.

[dpedin]

KPI's are frequently shit. Real problem I've found is that the stupid cost cutting never hits the twats who push it as they get promoted and move on before it goes to shit. I am 100% sure that 737max and Trent 1000 issues will be cost cutting related and it certainly won't have saved Boeing and RR any money.

KPIs, like nearly every other target based metric deployed, usually result in sub optimal or negative outcomes as those under scrutiny simply attempt to bend the system in order to meet the KPIs rather than the intended objective of the KPI.

A trivial example is the "we will answer all customer phone calls in 3 rings". The objective has to be to answer the customer's query. Instead, "Richie" in Bangalore picks up the call in 2 rings only to tell the customer he can't understand what she is saying. KPIs show massive uplift in performance. Customers are even more p*ssed off than having not gotten through at all (at least saved the price of the phone call).

737 Max is a cost cutting issue which is all rooted in the difference in cost and time for new type approval versus that for upgrade/mod for an existing, approved type. Hence the 737 Max purporting to be the lineage of a 1950s design.

Demming was pretty clear about management by objectives/KPIs - was clear they reduced quality and led to exactly what Torq says - gaming of the system. Hard to believe this was known about in the 50's.

Best story I heard about MBO/KPIs was of the Siberian clock manufacturer in the 1950's when Russia was driving manufacturing output very hard. The Kremlin noticed that the Siberian clock manufacturer was the highest performing manufacturer and was meeting 99% of the production output requirements of the Kremlin. So impressed was the Kremlin that they awarded it a medal and sent a delegation to hold a ceremony. At the ceremony the top Kremlin official made a long speech and then asked to see one of the clocks - he pulled one out of the box and was reassured it met 99% of the standards. The 1% of the standard not ... the lack of an hour hand.

[tc27]

Dear me,

You boys are some serious airplanes geeks

If you ever happen to visit DC, I strongly recommend you stop at the Udvar-Hazy museum next door to Dulles airport. Best aerospace museum in the world.

I have an I suppose emotional interest in that era in the 1950s when the UK was still trying to hang on as a world power and was still just about able to single-handedly produce world class planes like the Hunter and Canberra. What has stunned me is that the RAF lost 145 Meteors in 1953 alone, about the total number of Typhoons that we have in service.

Is it nostalgy for the grand past of Britannia or also a genuine interest in engineering and/or flight?

I have always dreamed about flight, but I am more Saint-Exupery for his writing than for his technical prowess. In other words, I am the typical consumer of dreams served to me, rather than the hard working engineer type who make these dreams come true. As such I have great admiration for people who understand the "how" and work to better it and make these ideas reality.

One thing I regret with the industry in general is the death of engineering as the heart of its development, in favor of financial KPIs that are killing adventure and progress.

Its a fascinating story about how the UK had multiple world class manufacturers producing legendary designs that was lost in a very quick succession of appalling government decisions.

The real shame us France showed a medium sized European economy could not only produce its own aircraft but also export them widely. The Mirage III is surely one the the all time classic designs (and the Rafale is the worlds best looking combat aircraft)

[fishfoodie]

Demming was pretty clear about management by objectives/KPIs - was clear they reduced quality and led to exactly what Torq says - gaming of the system. Hard to believe this was known about in the 50's.

Best story I heard about MBO/KPIs was of the Siberian clock manufacturer in the 1950's when Russia was driving manufacturing output very hard. The Kremlin noticed that the Siberian clock manufacturer was the highest performing manufacturer and was meeting 99% of the production output requirements of the Kremlin. So impressed was the Kremlin that they awarded it a medal and sent a delegation to hold a ceremony. At the ceremony the top Kremlin official made a long speech and then asked to see one of the clocks - he pulled one out of the box and was reassured it met 99% of the standards. The 1% of the standard not ... the lack of an hour hand.

I'll tell you a much more contemporary one.

I worked for a certain semiconductor manufacturer; & one of the major KPI's that Product Teams are set; is to deliver a B-Step, version; as soon as possible after the Initial design stepping; i.e. the A-Step. The Theory is you know you'll have bugs in the A-Step; but you manufacture a bunch of it; & debug it, to identify most of the bugs, to fix for a B-Step, that with a bit of luck, you can sell.

The problem was that this particular Product Team was always left sucking hind tit, when it came to being resourced & management made no adjustment for their own neglect; so they kept an unrealistic schedule.

Two weeks or so before the team is scheduled to; "Tape Out", the B-Step design; one of the Engineers discovers a colossal fuckup in the new stepping; & it's so bad, he knows the won't even power up; & the entire stepping is useless; even as a debug platform; & they need to go to a C-Step; or just restart the B-Step design. Either option of course loses everyone their bonus !

So the Product Manager decides to do a Nelson; &; "see no ships."

He proceeds as if no-one has told him there's problem; & continues with the Tape Out; & spend +$10 million on a full set of B-Step masks, & test equipment, packages etc, & then manufactures the test runs; & to the surprise of absolutely no-one .... they didn't power up; & even trying to test the fucking things was damaging the test equipment.

I was amazed that the guy responsible wasn't run out of the company within days; but there was a conspiracy of silence amongst management; because to admit they had let such a thing happen; would surely have put their own positions at risk. It was easier to piss away the shareholders money; than admit their own incompetence.

[Bullet]

AS9100 requires businesses to measure and evaluate key processes by KPI so UK aerospace companies have to use them.
The first audit will tell you if these are meaningless measures

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Demming was pretty clear about management by objectives/KPIs - was clear they reduced quality and led to exactly what Torq says - gaming of the system. Hard to believe this was known about in the 50's.

Best story I heard about MBO/KPIs was of the Siberian clock manufacturer in the 1950's when Russia was driving manufacturing output very hard. The Kremlin noticed that the Siberian clock manufacturer was the highest performing manufacturer and was meeting 99% of the production output requirements of the Kremlin. So impressed was the Kremlin that they awarded it a medal and sent a delegation to hold a ceremony. At the ceremony the top Kremlin official made a long speech and then asked to see one of the clocks - he pulled one out of the box and was reassured it met 99% of the standards. The 1% of the standard not ... the lack of an hour hand.

I'll tell you a much more contemporary one.

I worked for a certain semiconductor manufacturer; & one of the major KPI's that Product Teams are set; is to deliver a B-Step, version; as soon as possible after the Initial design stepping; i.e. the A-Step. The Theory is you know you'll have bugs in the A-Step; but you manufacture a bunch of it; & debug it, to identify most of the bugs, to fix for a B-Step, that with a bit of luck, you can sell.

The problem was that this particular Product Team was always left sucking hind tit, when it came to being resourced & management made no adjustment for their own neglect; so they kept an unrealistic schedule.

Two weeks or so before the team is scheduled to; "Tape Out", the B-Step design; one of the Engineers discovers a colossal fuckup in the new stepping; & it's so bad, he knows the won't even power up; & the entire stepping is useless; even as a debug platform; & they need to go to a C-Step; or just restart the B-Step design. Either option of course loses everyone their bonus !

So the Product Manager decides to do a Nelson; &; "see no ships."

He proceeds as if no-one has told him there's problem; & continues with the Tape Out; & spend +$10 million on a full set of B-Step masks, & test equipment, packages etc, & then manufactures the test runs; & to the surprise of absolutely no-one .... they didn't power up; & even trying to test the fucking things was damaging the test equipment.

I was amazed that the guy responsible wasn't run out of the company within days; but there was a conspiracy of silence amongst management; because to admit they had let such a thing happen; would surely have put their own positions at risk. It was easier to piss away the shareholders money; than admit their own incompetence.

Yup, seen similar things happen. That's a particularly striking example. There are no shortage of people, particularly in US companies - who are in it for the money to a quite extreme degree.

On a related note, I worked for Sun Microsystems back in the day - including during the UltraSparc III release. Despite being in the sales organisation I managed to get on to the mailing list of the test and debug team. It was pretty scary. They were taping out every few weeks to try and track down some intermittent but fatal bugs which in the end took about almost 9 months to finally identifty and fix.

[TheFrog]

The Max story is an horror story, and the issue there, I am sure goes beyond gaming KPIs. It is a story of pure greed at the top, and gutless submission at technical level.

But staying within the aeronautical industry, I remember the A380 delays at Airbus. People I knew there used to tell me that the company had developed a "watermelon" culture. Green on the outside but all red inside. And this was entirely KPIs and bonuses driven.

Sadly, there is little retribution for these behaviors, and even in the case of the Max, individuals at the top of the food chain are shielded. Even if they do have to resign, they go away with such a fat package that the story of CEO carrying higher accountability, hence their inflated compensation package, loses all credibility.


But beyond the mishaps, what I meant is that the current world driven by share value and the CFO results in aerospace companies being less adventurous and technology is not developing as fast as it could.

An industry like aviation requires such levels of investments, with so little returns (and long term ones) that I strongly believe that aviation only progresses when a government is involved.

[fishfoodie]

Well in the case of the Semiconductor firm I worked for; the CEO pissed away a 2+ year technology lead; coughed up 20% market share, & wasted money on acquisitions, that we paid too much for; & then completely failed to maximize the value; destroyed employee morale; & none of this was enough for the Board to fire the asshole.

What did get him thrown out; was getting caught fucking an underling !

Its a funny old world.

[Wyndham Upalot]

Bit of a nostalgia trip I'll admit, but this display was about a year after I'd joined up and when the RAF had credible force numbers ... mind you, F4 was always a fave of mine.

[Torquemada 1420]

AS9100 requires businesses to measure and evaluate key processes by KPI so UK aerospace companies have to use them.
The first audit will tell you if these are meaningless measures

I assume (from the imaginative number) that this is another version on ISO9001?

As a sceptic (coincidentally I was having dinner with 2 old friends on Tuesday who were both senior auditors at BSI back in the day), one suspects that even if the measures are meaningless, they are still used in order to maintain the veneer provided by the accreditation?

[Blackmac]

Bit of a nostalgia trip I'll admit, but this display was about a year after I'd joined up and when the RAF had credible force numbers ... mind you, F4 was always a fave of mine.

In 1990 I spent a summer on the Phantom air display team out of Leuchars. Brilliant time and the F4 was a joy to work on. Dangerous as fuck, but great fun.

[Bullet]

AS9100 requires businesses to measure and evaluate key processes by KPI so UK aerospace companies have to use them.
The first audit will tell you if these are meaningless measures

I assume (from the imaginative number) that this is another version on ISO9001?

As a sceptic (coincidentally I was having dinner with 2 old friends on Tuesday who were both senior auditors at BSI back in the day), one suspects that even if the measures are meaningless, they are still used in order to maintain the veneer provided by the accreditation?

Yes AS stands for Aerospace Standard and has a few sections added.
I'll audit to a quality management system with standard behind and raise an observation rather than a non conformance if the measures are inadequate.
This would have to be addressed before next surveillance audit - there's no hard shoulder in the sky.

[Sandstorm]

AS9100 requires businesses to measure and evaluate key processes by KPI so UK aerospace companies have to use them.
The first audit will tell you if these are meaningless measures

I assume (from the imaginative number) that this is another version on ISO9001?

As a sceptic (coincidentally I was having dinner with 2 old friends on Tuesday who were both senior auditors at BSI back in the day), one suspects that even if the measures are meaningless, they are still used in order to maintain the veneer provided by the accreditation?

Yes AS stands for Aerospace Standard and has a few sections added.

"Don't fall out of the sky"

[fishfoodie]

I assume (from the imaginative number) that this is another version on ISO9001?

As a sceptic (coincidentally I was having dinner with 2 old friends on Tuesday who were both senior auditors at BSI back in the day), one suspects that even if the measures are meaningless, they are still used in order to maintain the veneer provided by the accreditation?

Yes AS stands for Aerospace Standard and has a few sections added.

"Don't fall out of the sky"

KPI#1 - Always have the number of Landings, Equal the number of Takeoffs

[Oxbow]

This may not be of interest, but four MC-130 Hercules flew over my house within the space of about 15 minutes, on their way from Mildenhall to, by the looks of it, RAF Fairford. I often hear one or two fly over a day, but never four in a row before.

[TheFrog]

At the time when Akbar is squeaking about his A350s, team USA knows how to rely on a good aircraft.



https://simpleflying.com/winter-olympics-beijing-delta/

[Torquemada 1420]

At the time when Akbar is squeaking about his A350s, team USA knows how to rely on a good aircraft.



https://simpleflying.com/winter-olympics-beijing-delta/

Go with bare metal finish......

[Gumboot]

I wonder when this will happen.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/just-how-via ... rport-plan

[Torquemada 1420]

I wonder when this will happen.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/just-how-via ... rport-plan

What's the story? Is there a need for an airport there?!

[Gumboot]

ChCh Airport Inc (or whatever their corporate entity's called) has been landbanking farm and lifestyle property around the Tarras valley for years.

[Gumboot]

Tarras has pretty much the perfect conditions for an international airport, and it's half an hour from Queenstown.

[Torquemada 1420]

Tarras has pretty much the perfect conditions for an international airport, and it's half an hour from Queenstown.

I assume it's a place of natural beauty just crying out to be spoiled then?

[laurent]

Nice plane :P

[TheFrog]

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigatio ... 022-02-08/

More collusion between Boeing and its government.

[Torquemada 1420]

5G and the problems for Airbus and Boeing especially

[Yeeb]

Sad that big Antonov got zapped


https://www.businessinsider.com/video-w ... 2022-3?amp

[Torquemada 1420]

Sad that big Antonov got zapped


https://www.businessinsider.com/video-w ... 2022-3?amp

I can't believe they did not fly it out of there beforehand. They had plenty enough warning.

[laurent]

Sad that big Antonov got zapped


https://www.businessinsider.com/video-w ... 2022-3?amp

I can't believe they did not fly it out of there beforehand. They had plenty enough warning.

it was in maintenance :(

2 off his little brothers are in the south of France (Istres).