What to do with Beauden Barrett?

[Jb1981]

The last few years of AB selection have been full of missed opportunities. How many tests has Mo’unga played now, 20? He could have been coming into the World Cup with that many if we’d managed succession properly. I don’t think I have ever seen coaching stubbornness to the level Hansen displayed with Barrett.

We are neutering Mo’unga with the role Barrett is playing. If they want him at 15 fine but let Mo’unga run things. Give Mo’unga the kick offs and tell Barrett he’s a fullback and to play like one. World class fullbacks can influence a game without jumping into first receiver every other play. If he can’t do that then the bench is his best position.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Mounga timed his run terribly. He wasn’t in the frame in 2017, but seriously put his hand up in 2018. However, no coach wants to fuck with their established ten one year out from the RWC. If it was earlier in the cycle I reckon mounga walked into the ten jersey.

Mo’unga was ready for a run a year before Hansen finally yielded his ego and gave him a start. A year’s worth of development wasted so Hansen and Foster could sit in the bath tub playing rubber ducks with the BB and DMac dual playmaker idea.

Please don’t try and rewrite history to imply Mo’unga wasn’t ready. Many of us spent a year demanding he be given a start before it finally happened.

This. It was nothing to do with the timing of his form. It was everything to do with poor selection.

In all honesty, Hansen became a dreadful coach towards the end. Stale, conservative, and completely outdone by Eddie Jones.

[FujiKiwi]

The elephant in the room is that the best answer to the OP is to drop BB completely.

[Carter's Choice]

The elephant in the room is that the best answer to the OP is to drop BB completely.

Won't happen because Ian Foster is in love with him.

[FujiKiwi]

The elephant in the room is that the best answer to the OP is to drop BB completely.

Won't happen because Ian Foster is in love with him.

I see a glimmer of hope in the way Will Jordan injected himself into the game last night. Even Stu Foster should see that this sort of bringing in the new talent which is abundant in New Zealand rugby is the only way to save his own skin.

[Wild Beef]

Mounga timed his run terribly. He wasn’t in the frame in 2017, but seriously put his hand up in 2018. However, no coach wants to fuck with their established ten one year out from the RWC. If it was earlier in the cycle I reckon mounga walked into the ten jersey.

Mo’unga was ready for a run a year before Hansen finally yielded his ego and gave him a start. A year’s worth of development wasted so Hansen and Foster could sit in the bath tub playing rubber ducks with the BB and DMac dual playmaker idea.

Please don’t try and rewrite history to imply Mo’unga wasn’t ready. Many of us spent a year demanding he be given a start before it finally happened.

Yes, mounga was ready for a run a year before Hansen yielded. That is 2018 wasn’t it? So in line with my post. I’m pretty sure mounga wasn’t in the discussion in 2017, I recall he was poor against the lions?

[Carter's Choice]

I recall he was poor against the lions?

I love how the Richie haters obsess over this one match, when a Crusaders team missing its AB's was beaten by a full strength Lions team. They deliberately omit the fact that Richie as the form NZ no.10 throughout that season, winning a SR title away from home with a South African referee on the high veldt.

[Monkey Magic]

I recall he was poor against the lions?

I love how the Richie haters obsess over this one match, when a Crusaders team missing its AB's was beaten by a full strength Lions team. They deliberately omit the fact that Richie as the form NZ no.10 throughout that season, winning a SR title away from home with a South African referee on the high veldt.

And has about zero to do with the current team. Mo'unga seems to be the best 10 we have, this doesn't mean he will be perfect every game.

Unless BB is doing a lot of organizing from the back that we're not seeing and none of the other backline players can manage, I can't see how he stays as the starting 15

[Guy Smiley]

Mounga timed his run terribly. He wasn’t in the frame in 2017, but seriously put his hand up in 2018. However, no coach wants to fuck with their established ten one year out from the RWC. If it was earlier in the cycle I reckon mounga walked into the ten jersey.

Mo’unga was ready for a run a year before Hansen finally yielded his ego and gave him a start. A year’s worth of development wasted so Hansen and Foster could sit in the bath tub playing rubber ducks with the BB and DMac dual playmaker idea.

Please don’t try and rewrite history to imply Mo’unga wasn’t ready. Many of us spent a year demanding he be given a start before it finally happened.

Yes, mounga was ready for a run a year before Hansen yielded. That is 2018 wasn’t it? So in line with my post. I’m pretty sure mounga wasn’t in the discussion in 2017, I recall he was poor against the lions?

Still trying to rewrite history to suit your narrative.

Your usual attempts to pass yourself of as impartial are going to ring as hollow as a fart through a megaphone after this.

Very disappointing, mr Beef. Please try harder.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

I recall he was poor against the lions?

I love how the Richie haters obsess over this one match, when a Crusaders team missing its AB's was beaten by a full strength Lions team. They deliberately omit the fact that Richie as the form NZ no.10 throughout that season, winning a SR title away from home with a South African referee on the high veldt.

Yep. While pointing to Barrett's three year old Player of the Year award as evidence he should somehow be starting tests at 10 in 2020.

[Wild Beef]

I recall he was poor against the lions?

I love how the Richie haters obsess over this one match, when a Crusaders team missing its AB's was beaten by a full strength Lions team. They deliberately omit the fact that Richie as the form NZ no.10 throughout that season, winning a SR title away from home with a South African referee on the high veldt.

And has about zero to do with the current team. Mo'unga seems to be the best 10 we have, this doesn't mean he will be perfect every game.

Unless BB is doing a lot of organizing from the back that we're not seeing and none of the other backline players can manage, I can't see how he stays as the starting 15

No one is reading what I posted. My point is that no one was seriously arguing for mounga to replace Barrett in 2017. Moungas form was sensational in 2018 onward, which was bad timing from an rwc cycle perspective as most of the team is locked in the year before the tournament.

[Wild Beef]

I recall he was poor against the lions?

I love how the Richie haters obsess over this one match, when a Crusaders team missing its AB's was beaten by a full strength Lions team. They deliberately omit the fact that Richie as the form NZ no.10 throughout that season, winning a SR title away from home with a South African referee on the high veldt.

I legit can’t remember if mounga was the form ten but BB was very good in 2017 super. Certainly good enough to retain his jersey after 2016.

[Wild Beef]

Mo’unga was ready for a run a year before Hansen finally yielded his ego and gave him a start. A year’s worth of development wasted so Hansen and Foster could sit in the bath tub playing rubber ducks with the BB and DMac dual playmaker idea.

Please don’t try and rewrite history to imply Mo’unga wasn’t ready. Many of us spent a year demanding he be given a start before it finally happened.

Yes, mounga was ready for a run a year before Hansen yielded. That is 2018 wasn’t it? So in line with my post. I’m pretty sure mounga wasn’t in the discussion in 2017, I recall he was poor against the lions?

Still trying to rewrite history to suit your narrative.

Your usual attempts to pass yourself of as impartial are going to ring as hollow as a fart through a megaphone after this.

Very disappointing, mr Beef. Please try harder.

Kindly point to the history I am trying to rewrite.

[Jb1981]

Mo’unga was definitely in the discussion in 2017 and even went on the end of year tour. There may not have been calls for him to take over, but there were calls for him to join the squad. We missed a trick but not giving him game time. Who knows what Barrett would have looked like starting without building off the bench. Mo’unga didn’t get that chance he was held back until there was no other option and was then expected to perform like a veteran from day one.

[Wild Beef]

Mo’unga was definitely in the discussion in 2017 and even went on the end of year tour. There may not have been calls for him to take over, but there were calls for him to join the squad. We missed a trick but not giving him game time. Who knows what Barrett would have looked like starting without building off the bench. Mo’unga didn’t get that chance he was held back until there was no other option and was then expected to perform like a veteran from day one.

Ah I see. Yeah the whole attempt to make DMac a BB mk.II was not the best decision and fucked over both mounga as well as hindering DMac imo.

[Carter's Choice]

Beauden Barrett has started just three matches in no.10 this year. Two for the Blues and one for the All Blacks. Yet the way Ian Foster has managed his squad, BB is our back up first five. No-one else is really even in the mix. I think this is extremely risky. We have a number of talented young first fives in the country, yet Ian Foster is placing a huge amount of faith in a washed up fullback who won't be playing Super Rugby next year. First five is a specialist position and at the very least I expect our back up no.10 to be playing that position regularly.

[Torquemada 1420]

Beauden Barrett has started just three matches in no.10 this year. Two for the Blues and one for the All Blacks. Yet the way Ian Foster has managed his squad, BB is our back up first five. No-one else is really even in the mix. I think this is extremely risky. We have a number of talented young first fives in the country, yet Ian Foster is placing a huge amount of faith in a washed up fullback who won't be playing Super Rugby next year. First five is a specialist position and at the very least I expect our back up no.10 to be playing that position regularly.

Interested in your pitches into the hat for the upcoming 10s.

Also, what TF happened to BB? Did he lose his edge or has the game changed so much (space has pretty much gone) that his style is redundant?

[Grandpa]

Could a back three consisting of Will Jordan at 15 with Clarke and Rieko on the wings work? Rieko could go to right wing. Or is that too much pressure on Jordan's kicking game? At least the All Blacks would then have a potent running back three?

An alternative if want to be more conservative is David Havili at 15 with Jordan and Clark on the wings...

Beaudan Barrett on the bench as an impact player in his twilight years.. he'll be 33 at the next world cup...

[Torquemada 1420]

Beaudan Barrett on the bench as an impact player in his twilight years.. he'll be 33 at the next world cup...

[Wild Beef]

Could a back three consisting of Will Jordan at 15 with Clarke and Rieko on the wings work? Rieko could go to right wing. Or is that too much pressure on Jordan's kicking game? At least the All Blacks would then have a potent running back three?

An alternative if want to be more conservative is David Havili at 15 with Jordan and Clark on the wings...

Beaudan Barrett on the bench as an impact player in his twilight years.. he'll be 33 at the next world cup...

It’s a bit of a departure from the 2 fb 1 wing style the abs seem to prefer.

[Grandpa]

Could a back three consisting of Will Jordan at 15 with Clarke and Rieko on the wings work? Rieko could go to right wing. Or is that too much pressure on Jordan's kicking game? At least the All Blacks would then have a potent running back three?

An alternative if want to be more conservative is David Havili at 15 with Jordan and Clark on the wings...

Beaudan Barrett on the bench as an impact player in his twilight years.. he'll be 33 at the next world cup...

It’s a bit of a departure from the 2 fb 1 wing style the abs seem to prefer.

At the 2015 world cup it was Ben Smith at fullback with M-Skud on one wing and Julian Savea on the other... so not a departure from successful times?

[Wild Beef]

Skud plays fullback.

[Guy Smiley]

The good wingers can and do cover fullback. That’s as old as time. If you’ve got an attacking fb who can break lines and set up then it’s easy to drift back off the wing and cover. I used to do that as an 11 year old.

What we’ve seen more recently is the fascination with dual playmaker roles. That’s different. It came about through a desire to have both DMac and BB starting... so shoehorning basically. It’s a different matter shoehorning players into roles just to have them on the park. This shoehorning thing has become a trademark of contemporary AB teams.

[Grandpa]

Skud plays fullback.

Well do you persist with a donkey like Jordie just for the sake of having another fullback in the team? Who is another fullback/winger who could do the job? Someone with pace... there must be a better option than Jodie Barrett... surely?

[Wild Beef]

The good wingers can and do cover fullback. That’s as old as time. If you’ve got an attacking fb who can break lines and set up then it’s easy to drift back off the wing and cover. I used to do that as an 11 year old.

What we’ve seen more recently is the fascination with dual playmaker roles. That’s different. It came about through a desire to have both DMac and BB starting... so shoehorning basically. It’s a different matter shoehorning players into roles just to have them on the park. This shoehorning thing has become a trademark of contemporary AB teams.

Agree with most of this but I don’t think DMac was ever meant to start. The coaches wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted a 2016 era BB at ten, and a pre 2016 BB on the bench. DMac was going to be the latter. Tbf to DMac, he could easily have that same impact at fb, but he was never a ten.

[Wild Beef]

Skud plays fullback.

Well do you persist with a donkey like Jordie just for the sake of having another fullback in the team? Who is another fullback/winger who could do the job? Someone with pace... there must be a better option than Jodie Barrett... surely?

Jordan on the wing and Jordie at 15.

[Grandpa]

Skud plays fullback.

Well do you persist with a donkey like Jordie just for the sake of having another fullback in the team? Who is another fullback/winger who could do the job? Someone with pace... there must be a better option than Jodie Barrett... surely?

Jordan on the wing and Jordie at 15.

I said anyone but Jordie... at wing or fullback. I wouldn't even have him on the bench either. Is NZ really that bereft of outside backs that Jordie is even in the conversation?

David Havili at 15 with Jordan and Clark on the wings... David Havili is ten times the player Jordie is... and I am not a Crusaders supporter...

[Guy Smiley]

Skud plays fullback.

Well do you persist with a donkey like Jordie just for the sake of having another fullback in the team? Who is another fullback/winger who could do the job? Someone with pace... there must be a better option than Jodie Barrett... surely?

Jordan on the wing and Jordie at 15.

Jordan needs time to prove himself yet. Jordie is a handicap in a test team.

[Guy Smiley]

The good wingers can and do cover fullback. That’s as old as time. If you’ve got an attacking fb who can break lines and set up then it’s easy to drift back off the wing and cover. I used to do that as an 11 year old.

What we’ve seen more recently is the fascination with dual playmaker roles. That’s different. It came about through a desire to have both DMac and BB starting... so shoehorning basically. It’s a different matter shoehorning players into roles just to have them on the park. This shoehorning thing has become a trademark of contemporary AB teams.

Agree with most of this but I don’t think DMac was ever meant to start. The coaches wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted a 2016 era BB at ten, and a pre 2016 BB on the bench. DMac was going to be the latter. Tbf to DMac, he could easily have that same impact at fb, but he was never a ten.

DMac was a starting player when he did his knee. The Chiefs tried to turn him into a 10. It failed.

[Wild Beef]

Jordie has the goods at 15, he proved that this year.

I reckon the chiefs were under instruction to run DMac at 10. He played there for the MAB too.

[Grandpa]

Jordie has the goods at 15, he proved that this year.

I reckon the chiefs were under instruction to run DMac at 10. He played there for the MAB too.

Jordie is a super rugby flat track bully... never looked comfortable at test level... quite apart from being slower than any other player on the field.. . David Havili has a rugby brain too...

[Guy Smiley]

Jordie has the goods at 15, he proved that this year.

I reckon the chiefs were under instruction to run DMac at 10. He played there for the MAB too.

Jordie is a good Supe fullback. He’s a liability at test level. Slow, uncoordinated, awkward.

I’m sure the Chiefs were under instruction. It was clear the ABs wanted DMac to play as a second pivot from FB. It was a failed experiment that still has legs under the current coach.

We have better options for FB and wing and some of them, like Jordan should be playing there now and developing before the next RWC. At least with Jordan you can see the upside... with Jordie you’re seeing pretty much it. No upside.

I’ll cut to the chase. Take BB and Jordie out of the team and fill their places with alternatives. Leave BB on the bench for impact if it makes you feel better. Have a go and challenge yourself to come up with decent combinations.

I’d go with Jordan at 14 and Bridge at FB. Clark stays on the left wing.

I’d swap ALB and Goodhue at the same time.

Then you can play with a bench.

[Trapper]

I’d be mighty tempted to put Reiko on the wing instead of Clarke. Reiko has pace, lots of it and he’s not exactly small either and despite his drop in the first test he a finisher something Clarke just fails to do imo.

[sban052]

Reiko can go missing. Clarke has high workrate and makes meters. I think id prefer clarke

[Wild Beef]

I agree that Clarke doesn’t seem to have the finishing touch just yet.

[Guy Smiley]

I’d be mighty tempted to put Reiko on the wing instead of Clarke. Reiko has pace, lots of it and he’s not exactly small either and despite his drop in the first test he a finisher something Clarke just fails to do imo.

I’d have him on the bench. He can cover centre and wing. I question his attitude... he dropped the ball over the line in one test and very next game he did a hero dive and scored one handed. That says to me he didn’t learn or didn’t care. Along with that he’s been prone to dickhead moments. I’d rather that dynamic was openly discouraged and being consigned to the bench sends a clear message. Clarke draws defenders and that can be used to free up space. I’d keep him in the starting team and back him to cause havoc. Mayhem. Carnage. A backline version of Ardie if you like... all glistening magnificent brown thighs pumping like the pistons in a big old black steam train just stamping dominance all over the joint in a homoerotic fantasy worthy of the Greek gods.

Oooh suits you, sir.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

It was interesting reading Facebook comments last night under a Rugby Pass article. Barrett was commenting on his preferred position on the eve of his departure to Japan. He mentioned his preference would be to start at 10 and then move back to 15 later in a match, as this worked better than the other way around.

In the comments it really sheeted home to me how many know-nothing supporters are convinced he simply needs a few games at 10 to "rediscover" his 2016 form. They clearly are convinced he can open up the likes of England, France and South Africa in exactly the same way he did to Australia at the depth of their nadir.

Nuances like the advent of the rush defence and the fact tier one sides have worked out Barrett at 10 are completely lost on such supporters. It's why you see them compare 2020 Mo'unga to a wishful 2016 Barrett time and time again. It is simply an apples to oranges comparison.

Barrett isn't up to playing 10 against tier one sides unless he can somehow reinvent himself. We saw evidence of that in his poor display against a resurgent Australia this year, on top of an ample body of work stretching all the way back to the 2017 British & Irish Lions series.

Mo'unga is up to playing 10 against tier 1 sides. Does he have some work-ons? He sure does. His touchfinders need some work and he will do better to resist the sideways runs that just run his backs out of room.

There's still daylight between him and the next best 10 in New Zealand at the moment, Josh Ioane.

[Carter's Choice]

It was interesting reading Facebook comments last night under a Rugby Pass article. Barrett was commenting on his preferred position on the eve of his departure to Japan. He mentioned his preference would be to start at 10 and then move back to 15 later in a match, as this worked better than the other way around.

In the comments it really sheeted home to me how many know-nothing supporters are convinced he simply needs a few games at 10 to "rediscover" his 2016 form. They clearly are convinced he can open up the likes of England, France and South Africa in exactly the same way he did to Australia at the depth of their nadir.

Nuances like the advent of the rush defence and the fact tier one sides have worked out Barrett at 10 are completely lost on such supporters. It's why you see them compare 2020 Mo'unga to a wishful 2016 Barrett time and time again. It is simply an apples to oranges comparison.

Barrett isn't up to playing 10 against tier one sides unless he can somehow reinvent himself. We saw evidence of that in his poor display against a resurgent Australia this year, on top of an ample body of work stretching all the way back to the 2017 British & Irish Lions series.

Mo'unga is up to playing 10 against tier 1 sides. Does he have some work-ons? He sure does. His touchfinders need some work and he will do better to resist the sideways runs that just run his backs out of room.

There's still daylight between him and the next best 10 in New Zealand at the moment, Josh Ioane.

Great post

[Gumboot]

Except that Ioane's been hopelessly out of form and nowhere near the second best 10 in the country right now.

[FujiKiwi]

Except that Ioane's been hopelessly out of form and nowhere near the second best 10 in the country right now.

So who is? I haven’t caught much Mitre 10. Is it Black?