And a sabbatical built in?
That's quite funny! NZ have aways been ahead of the game with ruck speed creating spaces. One of the first England v NZ games I ever saw, the ABs created a 5 man overlap with a succession of fast rucks, each of which left a couple of England forwards rolling on the ground trying to get up.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:23 am I know Foster is very unpopular, but this article is batshit insane: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-word ... n-uttered/
The TL;DR seems to be "The ABs realised that a few pick and goes can tie in defenders and provide some structure, and Foster & Cane have said they should do that more regularly, THIS IS A BETRAYAL OF EVERYTHING WE STAND FOR, TEN MAN RUGBY IS A DISGRACE"
what an absoluterly bonkers piece of writing. Is this what NZ rugby journos are like in general?!
He's an idiot. I'm more worried that it took the NZ coaching team so long to realise they need a bit of go forward in the forwards first, if they want to make the most of their backline...JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:23 am I know Foster is very unpopular, but this article is batshit insane: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-word ... n-uttered/
The TL;DR seems to be "The ABs realised that a few pick and goes can tie in defenders and provide some structure, and Foster & Cane have said they should do that more regularly, THIS IS A BETRAYAL OF EVERYTHING WE STAND FOR, TEN MAN RUGBY IS A DISGRACE"
what an absoluterly bonkers piece of writing. Is this what NZ rugby journos are like in general?!
With the other assistant coaches yet to have their contracts extended, I wonder if any will be dropped with Schmidt having a more hands-on role than just selector?
It was definitely a mistake not starting Sam Cane. Just seems strange saying Sam W should have been dropped when he is still keeping Scott Barrett out 3 years on?Dan54 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:48 am
Well he says he thinks the mistake he made was not starting Sam Cane at 7 with Barrett and Retallic as locks with Sam W coming off bench. Doesn't actually say he was thinking of it, just says he thinks it was a mistake to leave Sam Cane out, he said he thought it when Sam W gave up stupid penalty by pushhing Farrell and getting penalty reversed. Not that wierd many people have commented that Sam did seem to be pretty tired.
I agree we seem to need bigger players in tight, the size of players is getting bigger every year, not ncessarily taller but bulkier?
Let's face it ,it's been happening for years, not saying I like it, but it's a fact of life. In fact I dislike it a lot, we going away from a skilled based game to contact being too much. I always remember Brad Thorn saying even the difference in size of player between him going back to league and returning to rugby stunned him.
I think Vaa'i will develop into a starting test lock. Been impressed with him since he began getting regular starts for the Chiefs. He may not be the tallest or heaviest lock around, but he's big enough and more importantly he has an excellent rugby brain.Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:58 am I couldn't find a general All Blacks thread, so will continue this discussion here...
It was definitely a mistake not starting Same Cane. Just seems strange saying Sam W should have been dropped when he is still keeping Scott Barrett out 3 years on?Dan54 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:48 am
Well he says he thinks the mistake he made was not starting Sam Cane at 7 with Barrett and Retallic as locks with Sam W coming off bench. Doesn't actually say he was thinking of it, just says he thinks it was a mistake to leave Sam Cane out, he said he thought it when Sam W gave up stupid penalty by pushhing Farrell and getting penalty reversed. Not that wierd many people have commented that Sam did seem to be pretty tired.
I agree we seem to need bigger players in tight, the size of players is getting bigger every year, not ncessarily taller but bulkier?
Let's face it ,it's been happening for years, not saying I like it, but it's a fact of life. In fact I dislike it a lot, we going away from a skilled based game to contact being too much. I always remember Brad Thorn saying even the difference in size of player between him going back to league and returning to rugby stunned him.
Though I do worry that Sam W and Retallick will be well past their bet come the next world cup. But is Scott Barrett the answer? PPP? Lord? Where are the next world class locks in NZ? They need to start playing soon if they are going to be ready for the WC.
That was panic.Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:10 am Pari Pari Parkinson shows a lot of promise and suffered for injury last year. If he can string a solid season together we'll have a good idea of what he can do, which looks like the right amount to me. Lord needs some gym time to beef up a bit.
Back to the end of year games...
Aaron Smith was rushed to Europe for the last two games, after he was announced as unavailable to tour. He sat the first of those two games out entirely, then came off the bench in the last test.
Explain that. Explain why you'd rush your number one player half way around the world to sit out a game and a half, then play half a game before flying back to a two week isolation.
What the actual fuck was that?
My worry with Vaa'i is that he is a bit short for an international lock these days. Same as Scott Barrett is. I think others have mentioned that he has the physical attributes to be a number 6... in the PSDT mould. If he is played there at Super level.... rather than thrown in at test level after playing all season at lock.Gumboot wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:11 amI think Vaa'i will develop into a starting test lock. Been impressed with him since he began getting regular starts for the Chiefs. He may not be the tallest or heaviest lock around, but he's big enough and more importantly he has an excellent rugby brain.Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:58 am I couldn't find a general All Blacks thread, so will continue this discussion here...
It was definitely a mistake not starting Sam Cane. Just seems strange saying Sam W should have been dropped when he is still keeping Scott Barrett out 3 years on?Dan54 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:48 am
Well he says he thinks the mistake he made was not starting Sam Cane at 7 with Barrett and Retallic as locks with Sam W coming off bench. Doesn't actually say he was thinking of it, just says he thinks it was a mistake to leave Sam Cane out, he said he thought it when Sam W gave up stupid penalty by pushhing Farrell and getting penalty reversed. Not that wierd many people have commented that Sam did seem to be pretty tired.
I agree we seem to need bigger players in tight, the size of players is getting bigger every year, not ncessarily taller but bulkier?
Let's face it ,it's been happening for years, not saying I like it, but it's a fact of life. In fact I dislike it a lot, we going away from a skilled based game to contact being too much. I always remember Brad Thorn saying even the difference in size of player between him going back to league and returning to rugby stunned him.
Though I do worry that Sam W and Retallick will be well past their best come the next world cup. But is Scott Barrett the answer? PPP? Lord? Where are the next world class locks in NZ? They need to start playing soon if they are going to be ready for the WC.
6'6" isn't short for an international lock. It's about average. You'd probably want another taller one in there but if he's athletic it doesn't matter. He's taller than Itoje and I don't think anyone's saying Itoje's height is a problem (well, bar Seneca, but he was a loon).Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:41 amMy worry with Vaa'i is that he is a bit short for an international lock these days. Same as Scott Barrett is. I think others have mentioned that he has the physical attributes to be a number 6... in the PSDT mould. If he is played there at Super level.... rather than thrown in at test level after playing all season at lock.Gumboot wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:11 amI think Vaa'i will develop into a starting test lock. Been impressed with him since he began getting regular starts for the Chiefs. He may not be the tallest or heaviest lock around, but he's big enough and more importantly he has an excellent rugby brain.Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:58 am I couldn't find a general All Blacks thread, so will continue this discussion here...
It was definitely a mistake not starting Sam Cane. Just seems strange saying Sam W should have been dropped when he is still keeping Scott Barrett out 3 years on?
Though I do worry that Sam W and Retallick will be well past their best come the next world cup. But is Scott Barrett the answer? PPP? Lord? Where are the next world class locks in NZ? They need to start playing soon if they are going to be ready for the WC.
I like PPP just a shame about injuries.
Itoje is a bit of a freak. You just feel that to dominate SA you'll need those tall guys or will get creamed at the lineout like we did last year against them.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:53 am6'6" isn't short for an international lock. It's about average. You'd probably want another taller one in there but if he's athletic it doesn't matter. He's taller than Itoje and I don't think anyone's saying Itoje's height is a problem (well, bar Seneca, but he was a loon).Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:41 amMy worry with Vaa'i is that he is a bit short for an international lock these days. Same as Scott Barrett is. I think others have mentioned that he has the physical attributes to be a number 6... in the PSDT mould. If he is played there at Super level.... rather than thrown in at test level after playing all season at lock.
I like PPP just a shame about injuries.
You guys have been blessed with two high quality behemoths in Whitelock and Retallick. Outside of SA not many teams produce those.
We've been poor for about 7 years now. I thought it might be time to be good again...average joe wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:26 am I think you guys have been so spoilt for so long that you forgot what it felt like to lose a few games. Golden years has to end sometime or another. You'll probably always be one of the top teams but just accept that you're not the unbeatable force you once were and that other teams have improved.
I've not given this massive thought but surely a few inches in height is not going to be more important than athleticism (and a good thrower)? Itoje and Woki are 2 of the best lineout men in the world at present and neither is a giant. I concede that Woki isn't really a lock (any more than Itoje is a backrow) but that is where he is playing. Thinking in France, both Macalou and Iturria are go to men and both are back rowers, so maybe that's one possible answer?Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:04 am Itoje is a bit of a freak. You just feel that to dominate SA you'll need those tall guys or will get creamed at the lineout like we did last year against them.
I think Brad Thorn was the last shortish high quality lock we had, but he was super strong to counteract that... plus we had Read jumping...
It's also about adding power to the tight five. That's where we have gone down hill the last 5 years...
7 years! You joke. From 2010 up to 2019 you lost 12 test and drew 3 out of about a 120 test.Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:02 pmWe've been poor for about 7 years now. I thought it might be time to be good again...average joe wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:26 am I think you guys have been so spoilt for so long that you forgot what it felt like to lose a few games. Golden years has to end sometime or another. You'll probably always be one of the top teams but just accept that you're not the unbeatable force you once were and that other teams have improved.
Barely a 90% success rate....average joe wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:27 pm7 years! You joke. From 2010 up to 2019 you lost 12 test and drew 3 out of about a 120 test.Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:02 pmWe've been poor for about 7 years now. I thought it might be time to be good again...average joe wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:26 am I think you guys have been so spoilt for so long that you forgot what it felt like to lose a few games. Golden years has to end sometime or another. You'll probably always be one of the top teams but just accept that you're not the unbeatable force you once were and that other teams have improved.
I guess if a shorter lock proves they can win a lot of lineout ball then fair enough.. but it's about power too for NZ.. the tight five is lacking power in the tight/scrum/mauls etc. A lot is technical/tactical but the fear is they are also under powered compared to a lot of the top sides.. France, Ireland and SA dominated NZ physically last year... and England would too...Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:23 pmI've not given this massive thought but surely a few inches in height is not going to be more important than athleticism (and a good thrower)? Itoje and Woki are 2 of the best lineout men in the world at present and neither is a giant. I concede that Woki isn't really a lock (any more than Itoje is a backrow) but that is where he is playing. Thinking in France, both Macalou and Iturria are go to men and both are back rowers, so maybe that's one possible answer?Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:04 am Itoje is a bit of a freak. You just feel that to dominate SA you'll need those tall guys or will get creamed at the lineout like we did last year against them.
I think Brad Thorn was the last shortish high quality lock we had, but he was super strong to counteract that... plus we had Read jumping...
It's also about adding power to the tight five. That's where we have gone down hill the last 5 years...
This is where my lack of knowledge of Vaa'i and Nandos comes through a bit. From memory they're bit a little skinny? Itoje and Woki are, as you say, kinda freakish - both very explosive athletes. Neither Retallick nor Whitelock were quite like that but they were gigantic human beings with a lot of skill anyway.Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:03 pmI guess if a shorter lock proves they can win a lot of lineout ball then fair enough.. but it's about power too for NZ.. the tight five is lacking power in the tight/scrum/mauls etc. A lot is technical/tactical but the fear is they are also under powered compared to a lot of the top sides.. France, Ireland and SA dominated NZ physically last year... and England would too...Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:23 pmI've not given this massive thought but surely a few inches in height is not going to be more important than athleticism (and a good thrower)? Itoje and Woki are 2 of the best lineout men in the world at present and neither is a giant. I concede that Woki isn't really a lock (any more than Itoje is a backrow) but that is where he is playing. Thinking in France, both Macalou and Iturria are go to men and both are back rowers, so maybe that's one possible answer?Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:04 am Itoje is a bit of a freak. You just feel that to dominate SA you'll need those tall guys or will get creamed at the lineout like we did last year against them.
I think Brad Thorn was the last shortish high quality lock we had, but he was super strong to counteract that... plus we had Read jumping...
It's also about adding power to the tight five. That's where we have gone down hill the last 5 years...
yep.. would love to see what Razor could do. He is the mould breaker/innovator versus the conservative Foster. Maybe Razor could show we can win again without having the biggest pack... but we likely wont find out until after the next world cup.. though there is now a danger that Joe Schmidt is the next cab off the rank...JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:19 pmThis is where my lack of knowledge of Vaa'i and Nandos comes through a bit. From memory they're bit a little skinny? Itoje and Woki are, as you say, kinda freakish - both very explosive athletes. Neither Retallick nor Whitelock were quite like that but they were gigantic human beings with a lot of skill anyway.Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:03 pmI guess if a shorter lock proves they can win a lot of lineout ball then fair enough.. but it's about power too for NZ.. the tight five is lacking power in the tight/scrum/mauls etc. A lot is technical/tactical but the fear is they are also under powered compared to a lot of the top sides.. France, Ireland and SA dominated NZ physically last year... and England would too...Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:23 pm
I've not given this massive thought but surely a few inches in height is not going to be more important than athleticism (and a good thrower)? Itoje and Woki are 2 of the best lineout men in the world at present and neither is a giant. I concede that Woki isn't really a lock (any more than Itoje is a backrow) but that is where he is playing. Thinking in France, both Macalou and Iturria are go to men and both are back rowers, so maybe that's one possible answer?
What is interesting to me about this conversation is the idea that NZ are having to play catch-up, when normally they're either the trendsetters or the mould-breakers. NZ historically has been so good at creating a successful formula based on the kind of players coming through. I'm not sure there's really a problem for NZ here. Selection has been an issue but as you saw against France how the gameplan works on the pitch is just as important; that period of going up the guts was quite a departure from the recent norm for NZ and more of that sort of direct, aggressive, fast forward play is going to create teams a lot of problems, and you do not need to have the biggest pack in the world to do it. If anything it's even easier for slightly smaller and more mobile packs to maintain the pace and intensity of that sort of play.
Your backline's a bit of a mess at the moment but there's no doubt you have the talent in every position to make a team that can be #1 again.
Which brings us back to the thread title, I guess.
You not a fan? I know he's a fairly conservative coach, but he does seem to play to a team's strengths. I don't think he'd have NZ box kicking all day.Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:33 pmyep.. would love to see what Razor could do. He is the mould breaker/innovator versus the conservative Foster. Maybe Razor could show we can win again without having the biggest pack... but we likely wont find out until after the next world cup.. though there is now a danger that Joe Schmidt is the next cab off the rank...JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:19 pmThis is where my lack of knowledge of Vaa'i and Nandos comes through a bit. From memory they're bit a little skinny? Itoje and Woki are, as you say, kinda freakish - both very explosive athletes. Neither Retallick nor Whitelock were quite like that but they were gigantic human beings with a lot of skill anyway.Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:03 pm
I guess if a shorter lock proves they can win a lot of lineout ball then fair enough.. but it's about power too for NZ.. the tight five is lacking power in the tight/scrum/mauls etc. A lot is technical/tactical but the fear is they are also under powered compared to a lot of the top sides.. France, Ireland and SA dominated NZ physically last year... and England would too...
What is interesting to me about this conversation is the idea that NZ are having to play catch-up, when normally they're either the trendsetters or the mould-breakers. NZ historically has been so good at creating a successful formula based on the kind of players coming through. I'm not sure there's really a problem for NZ here. Selection has been an issue but as you saw against France how the gameplan works on the pitch is just as important; that period of going up the guts was quite a departure from the recent norm for NZ and more of that sort of direct, aggressive, fast forward play is going to create teams a lot of problems, and you do not need to have the biggest pack in the world to do it. If anything it's even easier for slightly smaller and more mobile packs to maintain the pace and intensity of that sort of play.
Your backline's a bit of a mess at the moment but there's no doubt you have the talent in every position to make a team that can be #1 again.
Which brings us back to the thread title, I guess.
As Guy says... the way he coached Ireland wouldn't sit well with the All Blacks. I don't mind him being a consultant as he may be able to wake Foster up.
Razor could conceivably end up at Wales. Which would leave Pivac free to coach the ABs.....Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:33 pm yep.. would love to see what Razor could do. He is the mould breaker/innovator versus the conservative Foster. Maybe Razor could show we can win again without having the biggest pack... but we likely wont find out until after the next world cup.. though there is now a danger that Joe Schmidt is the next cab off the rank...
I don't know about Nandos but Vaai strikes me as a big enough lump!!!!JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:19 pm This is where my lack of knowledge of Vaa'i and Nandos comes through a bit. From memory they're bit a little skinny? Itoje and Woki are, as you say, kinda freakish - both very explosive athletes. Neither Retallick nor Whitelock were quite like that but they were gigantic human beings with a lot of skill anyway.
Id prefer Pivac to Foster.. just..Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:52 pmRazor could conceivably end up at Wales. Which would leave Pivac free to coach the ABs.....Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:33 pm yep.. would love to see what Razor could do. He is the mould breaker/innovator versus the conservative Foster. Maybe Razor could show we can win again without having the biggest pack... but we likely wont find out until after the next world cup.. though there is now a danger that Joe Schmidt is the next cab off the rank...
Foster made a comment after one of the losses last year that echoes comments made by Hansen during his tenure. I think they're a damning indictment of arrogance and obstinacy that appears to have underpinned the coaching philosophy of Hansen as head coach, something the creatively limited Foster seems to have either promoted or accepted as his own...JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:19 pm
What is interesting to me about this conversation is the idea that NZ are having to play catch-up, when normally they're either the trendsetters or the mould-breakers. NZ historically has been so good at creating a successful formula based on the kind of players coming through. I'm not sure there's really a problem for NZ here. Selection has been an issue but as you saw against France how the gameplan works on the pitch is just as important; that period of going up the guts was quite a departure from the recent norm for NZ and more of that sort of direct, aggressive, fast forward play is going to create teams a lot of problems, and you do not need to have the biggest pack in the world to do it. If anything it's even easier for slightly smaller and more mobile packs to maintain the pace and intensity of that sort of play.
Your backline's a bit of a mess at the moment but there's no doubt you have the talent in every position to make a team that can be #1 again.
Which brings us back to the thread title, I guess.
Actually Ted didn't say Rennie was best for job, just said he should of been kept in NZ (and was at a lunch where Ted said that). According to Hansen (well in his book) Schmidt was NZR's preferred candidate, but turned job down. He was struggling mentally with coaching at test level for Ireland, and needed a break.Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:53 pm Ahhh the All Blacks.. the only team playing honest rugby...
Even Ted, who helped select Foster said he wasn't the best man for the job.. Rennie was. Imagine undermining your own selection by saying that...
Maybe we can get those anti-vax protesters to ransack, pillage and cleanse the NZRU?
That lunch where Ted was a bit tiddly... Wairarapa Bush? I am sure he said Rennie should have been coach as I remember rewinding the video to see if I heard correctly.Dan54 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:04 pmActually Ted didn't say Rennie was best for job, just said he should of been kept in NZ (and was at a lunch where Ted said that). According to Hansen (well in his book) Schmidt was NZR's preferred candidate, but turned job down. He was struggling mentally with coaching at test level for Ireland, and needed a break.Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:53 pm Ahhh the All Blacks.. the only team playing honest rugby...
Even Ted, who helped select Foster said he wasn't the best man for the job.. Rennie was. Imagine undermining your own selection by saying that...
Maybe we can get those anti-vax protesters to ransack, pillage and cleanse the NZRU?
Whether we like it or not, there were only 2 candidates for job, Razor and Fozzie, like me wanting Joseph or anyone wanting Rennie etc etc,(or Schmidt has become trendy on internet lately) they didn't stand , so they weren't part of equasion.
As I said I like the idea of Jamie Joseph/Tony Brown combo, but I know no more than anyone on here really.
And to ad to that someone jokingly in an earlier post jokingly said we will give you Pivac, with reference to how Wales is going no doubt. probably the most unsuccessful coach Wales has had this century was Hansen, who incidently is also probably the most sucessful long term coach of a tier 1 team in history with ABs, so maybe we should start campaigning ofr Pivac.
Perhaps the idea of coaching overseas (especially at test level) is a great help, we know Razor thinks so, and tried to get a gig with Lions to learn a bit more.
A stint overseas would help Razor.. I am actually surprised he didn't take off in 2019 after not getting the All Blacks job...Asked to choose between Rennie and Foster, Henry said he would pick the Wallabies coach as his man.
"Well there you go, eh. I talked in the media about this before and (was) asked who should coach the All Blacks and I was very vocal about Rennie,.
“I think we stuffed up quite frankly because he [Rennie] is a quality person and a quality coach and you've seen it straight away with the Wallabies. They will play for him, and that's no disrespect to Fozzie, that's just circumstantial, so I've answered the question.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... cks-coachn
I suspect (I may be wrong) that if Razor had taken off and coached overseas for a few years in 2019... and came back in 2023 and applied for the All Blacks job, he'd have a better chance of getting it... as the NZRU seem to value it...
I agree with your last, certainly.Grandpa wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:49 pmI suspect (I may be wrong) that if Razor had taken off and coached overseas for a few years in 2019... and came back in 2023 and applied for the All Blacks job, he'd have a better chance of getting it... as the NZRU seem to value it...
Otherwise he applies again in 2023... and they'll ask, so what have you done differently since the last interview Razor? "Won 4 more Super Rugby titles.." ...to which they'll roll their eyes.. "next..."
Cause they're wankers.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/rugby- ... YFW2TLO2U/It now appears that Foster's lack of overseas coaching experience could count against him.
"We will ensure that when we go to market in December 2019 that there are as many Kiwis as possible available. That's got to be our job. Our plan of attack is to make sure that those coaches overseas know what our process is and what we are looking for.
He does enjoy doing a few revolutions...Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:07 pmMeanwhile... Razor has been a breath of fresh air within NZR generally and his coaching has been excellent. He brings a revolutionary approach and lateral thinking to the role.
