NPR

Holder and Joseph both gone.

282/8

Da Silva scores a very good 50 on debut. He looks like a more than useful young keeper/batsman.

307/9

Da Silva gone. One more wicket to go.

Wagner strikes and the BCs claim successive innings wins, having lost the toss both times. Bloody impressive stuff by the lads.

That'll do nicely.

Turned on the TV to see the players shaking hands. One of the downsides to living in QLD and therefore being 3 hours behind NZ. A good team effort. This NZ team looks enthusiastic and focused. They are a champion team, who have a few champion players as well. It's great to go into a test series expecting NZ to win 2-0, and then watching them deliver on the expectation. That has not always been the case with the NZ cricket team. My question is, are we that much better than we used to be or are other teams (Like the WI's) just worse?

Palistan are ranked 7; Windies are 8th in tests.

I think the expectation is another 2 nil result there as well.

Not a lot of ranking points for winning at home but we lose a lot if we get beaten.

Enzedder wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:42 pm Palistan are ranked 7; Windies are 8th in tests.

I think the expectation is another 2 nil result there as well.

Not a lot of ranking points for winning at home but we lose a lot if we get beaten.

So are Pakistan touring NZ next?

Carter's Choice wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:59 pm

Enzedder wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:42 pm Palistan are ranked 7; Windies are 8th in tests.

I think the expectation is another 2 nil result there as well.

Not a lot of ranking points for winning at home but we lose a lot if we get beaten.

So are Pakistan touring NZ next?

They're already in NZ, creating problems with their behaviour while in quarantine. Shoaib Akhtar had some strong words for the NZ government.

That's right, I have seen bits about them on the news in Australia. Seems that they are struggling with the whole bubble thing.

Pakistan are such an up and down team, they can be world class but more often than not they are mediocre. Must suck playing your entire career away from home.

Makes the race for the World Test Chamionship pretty interesting. The re-jigged system is a bit of a puzzle to understand, but as far as I can tell it's a three horse race. If NZ wins the next series against Pakistan 2-0 we go to 70% (420 points from a possible 600).

To make the final we'd then need one of Aus or India to slip up. Obviously both are about to play each other, followed by Aus in SA (if that goes ahead) and India at home to England.

As far as I can tell, the permutations are:

- If India go 4-4 over their next two series, they end up on 66.6%. If they go 5-3 it's just ahead on 70.83%. 4-2-2 puts them on 69.44%, so just marginally behind.

- If Aus beat India 4-0 but go 0-3 in SA (or some permutation of 4 wins 3 losses) they end up on 69.33%. Anything better than that i.e. 4-1-2 gets them over the line.

- England would have to win away in Sri Lanka and India, so almost no chance.

I think basically if we win both Pak tests and India don't win a test in Austraia (both big ifs) we're a very good chance of losing to Australia at Lords on a most balls hitting the stumps in session 3 countback.

If we made the final vs India I would give us a chance at Lords. That’s assuming it doesn’t come down to a most batting time lost to bad light count back.

Anyway, in the interests of recycling I have adding the Pakistan series to the thread title.

Awesome achievement from the team, big ones being the uae and England series, but the big change is they are expected to win at at hime.

Winning series vs India and England was outstanding, only wish they were 4 or 5 match series.

Playing Australia here would be interesting, lyon likely less effective and a shootout out between latham/Williamson/Taylor + others vs Warner/smith/labuschagne + not as many others

Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:48 am Awesome achievement from the team, big ones being the uae and England series, but the big change is they are expected to win at at hime.

Winning series vs India and England was outstanding, only wish they were 4 or 5 match series.

Playing Australia here would be interesting, lyon likely less effective and a shootout out between latham/Williamson/Taylor + others vs Warner/smith/labuschagne + not as many others

Oz easily won a 2-test series 2-0 in NZ in 2016 against a similar NZ team (Latham, Williamson, Nicholls, Watling, Southee, Boult, Wagner; only Taylor was missing). And Lyon took 10 wickets at 22.

Given last season's embarrassment, there's no reason to think it would be any different this time around.

Certain Navigator wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:26 pm

Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:48 am Awesome achievement from the team, big ones being the uae and England series, but the big change is they are expected to win at at hime.

Winning series vs India and England was outstanding, only wish they were 4 or 5 match series.

Playing Australia here would be interesting, lyon likely less effective and a shootout out between latham/Williamson/Taylor + others vs Warner/smith/labuschagne + not as many others

Oz easily won a 2-test series 2-0 in NZ in 2016 against a similar NZ team (Latham, Williamson, Nicholls, Watling, Southee, Boult, Wagner; only Taylor was missing). And Lyon took 10 wickets at 22.

Given last season's embarrassment, there's no reason to think it would be any different this time around.

A little misleading. Nicholls was on debut in that series, we were still wasting an openers' spot on Guptill, Wagner only played the second test, and we were still persisting with such guns as Anderson, Craig, and Bracewell. Don't think you can say we were 'only' missing our second best batsman either. That's a massive loss.

There's a good chance we'd still lose handsomely, but I think this team is definitely better than the 2016 version.

The problem with Australia is that their pace attack is still too strong. We aren't used to playing against such quality, and we turn to crap. Especially on the bouncy Australian wickets. Sure, I get the Lyon has destroyed us recently, but he cashes in on the hard work undertaken by this pacemen.

Certain Navigator wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:26 pm

Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:48 am Awesome achievement from the team, big ones being the uae and England series, but the big change is they are expected to win at at hime.

Winning series vs India and England was outstanding, only wish they were 4 or 5 match series.

Playing Australia here would be interesting, lyon likely less effective and a shootout out between latham/Williamson/Taylor + others vs Warner/smith/labuschagne + not as many others

Oz easily won a 2-test series 2-0 in NZ in 2016 against a similar NZ team (Latham, Williamson, Nicholls, Watling, Southee, Boult, Wagner; only Taylor was missing). And Lyon took 10 wickets at 22.

Given last season's embarrassment, there's no reason to think it would be any different this time around.

Not saying we'd smash them just that it would be a good series.

Think we are a better team than that series and also not sure pitches match up to what we've had recently

mrbrownstone wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:12 pm

Certain Navigator wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:26 pm

Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:48 am Awesome achievement from the team, big ones being the uae and England series, but the big change is they are expected to win at at hime.

Winning series vs India and England was outstanding, only wish they were 4 or 5 match series.

Playing Australia here would be interesting, lyon likely less effective and a shootout out between latham/Williamson/Taylor + others vs Warner/smith/labuschagne + not as many others

Oz easily won a 2-test series 2-0 in NZ in 2016 against a similar NZ team (Latham, Williamson, Nicholls, Watling, Southee, Boult, Wagner; only Taylor was missing). And Lyon took 10 wickets at 22.

Given last season's embarrassment, there's no reason to think it would be any different this time around.

A little misleading. Nicholls was on debut in that series, we were still wasting an openers' spot on Guptill, Wagner only played the second test, and we were still persisting with such guns as Anderson, Craig, and Bracewell. Don't think you can say we were 'only' missing our second best batsman either. That's a massive loss.

There's a good chance we'd still lose handsomely, but I think this team is definitely better than the 2016 version.

Very likely, but one could equally make the same claim of Oz — the 2016 team didn't include Cummins, Starc or Labuschagne. The real issue is whether, after last year's exposure, one really thinks playing a series in NZ would make that big a difference to the outcome. Some apparently do. I'm doubtful, but would certainly be happy to be proved wrong.

The NZ team of the 1980s was sometimes able to beat, and always compete with, Australia both home and away. The current side has shown no such ability.

Carter's Choice wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:59 am The problem with Australia is that their pace attack is still too strong. We aren't used to playing against such quality, and we turn to crap. Especially on the bouncy Australian wickets. Sure, I get the Lyon has destroyed us recently, but he cashes in on the hard work undertaken by this pacemen.

With respect, that's nonsense. After a slightly shaky start, Lyon has become one of Australia's greatest-ever spinners.

There's no doubt that the Oz pace unit is formidable, but its potency would be much reduced without the presence of Lyon.

Certain Navigator wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:41 am

Carter's Choice wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:59 am The problem with Australia is that their pace attack is still too strong. We aren't used to playing against such quality, and we turn to crap. Especially on the bouncy Australian wickets. Sure, I get the Lyon has destroyed us recently, but he cashes in on the hard work undertaken by this pacemen.

With respect, that's nonsense. After a slightly shaky start, Lyon has become one of Australia's greatest-ever spinners.

There's no doubt that the Oz pace unit is formidable, but its potency would be much reduced without the presence of Lyon.

Chicken and egg stuff CN. Does Lyon benefit off the pace attack, or does the pace attack benefit from Lyon? Maybe we are both wrong? Personally I think batsmen tend to relax a bit when facing Lyon as opposed to the relentless torment of the Aussie quicks. Just my opinion.

The NZ team of the 1980s was sometimes able to beat, and always compete with, Australia both home and away. The current side has shown no such ability.

It takes two to tango. Oz (just out of the Kim Hughes debacle) weren't a shadow of the current side.

Btw Certain Navigator, what was your moniker on Planet Rugby? I like your combative, no-holds barred posting style Go fuck yourself!

Lockie Ferguson's out for 6 weeks with a stress fracture to his back. Poor bugger's had a wretched run of injuries.

Gumboot wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:39 am Lockie Ferguson's out for 6 weeks with a stress fracture to his back. Poor bugger's had a wretched run of injuries.

Have we ever had a super fast bowler not constantly breakdown? Makes you realize how good Brett Lee was to stay so good for so long

Anyone watching the Australia vs India test? There’s a pretty disappointing lack of wag from the Indian tail.

Pakistan win the toss and will bat.

I’m looking forward to another look at Conway and seeing how Duffy goes.

So in the past the bowler used to give his hat sunnies to the ump, nowadays it seems a teammate takes them, when did this start happening...great wickets Duffy, 2 now

Jambanja wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:16 am So in the past the bowler used to give his hat sunnies to the ump, nowadays it seems a teammate takes them, when did this start happening...great wickets Duffy, 2 now

Part of the covid safety regs. Obviously just came in this season.

Pakistand 20/3 - all to Duffy who will be on a hat-trick if he comes back.

20/4 - Kuggelijn takes one as well

Whoever is on cricinfo comments duty likes a bit of bounce.

Extra bounce! Extra bounce! They can't handle the extra bounce!

Guppy skies out to mid-off.

Two out of three failures for Guptill so far this season and one middling score.

Jb1981 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:06 am Two out of three failures for Guptill so far this season and one middling score.

He's 34 now. There's no doubt he's one of our greatest ever white ball batsmen, but you have to start asking whether he's a spent force? Since 2017 in T20 cricket by year he's averaged 13.75, 41, 23.57, and 18.12. Last year in ODIs he only averaged 36 - first time below 40 since 2015. His record says he deserves a long rope to hopefully rediscover form, but at his age questions have to be asked.

Jb1981 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:06 am Two out of three failures for Guptill so far this season and one middling score.

What's new? I'm sure once the pressure is off he'll score an aggressive 50 or more in a dead rubber, earning more time in the side.

The very definition of a flat track bully.

We made harder work of that than we probably should have at 40/5, but a win's a win.

The question is, are we any closer to knowing what our best T20 side is? We're about 10 months out from a T20 World Cup (in theory at least), and for my money we only have 4 nailed on, 'must pick' players:

1.
2.
3. Williamson (c)
4.
5.
6.
7. Santner
8.
9.
10. Ferguson
11. Boult

In India, Ish Sodhi will almost certainly be there too, then it's probably a toss up between Jamieson/Southee/Henry/Astle/A.N.Other spinner depending on the pitch. Jamieson surely the preference. Hopefully no sign of Wheeler, Tickner, Duffy, Rance, Kuggeleijn, Bennett et al. that we've had to use recently. Will be interesting to keep an eye on Milne in the BBL.

The bigger question is what to do with the batting. Since 2017 the following batsman/all rounders have either debuted or been in the mix: Guptill, Munro, Conway, Siefert, Phillips, Chapman, Taylor, Bruce, Blundell, Kitchen, Mitchell, Neesham, CDG. Maybe a few others I've missed.

Realistically Bruce, Blundell, Kitchen are unlikely to be in the mix. The problem is then strucuring your order: Guptill, Munro, Conway, Seifert, and Phillips are all probably at their best batting in the top 3.

I still think Guptill and Munro are probably our best opening pair (they're our two highest ranked batsmen if you put any stock in ICC rankings). It's then anyones guess from there - Seifert and Phillips don't really deserve to be dropped on recent performances, Conway looks very good (he might do alright at 5 where he can accumulate/accelerate as needed - taking Roscos place who hasn't been great in T20s for a while). It's then a bit of a dogfight between Neesham/CDG/Mitchell.

Personally I think I'd go with:

1. Guptill
2. Munro
3. Williamson (c)
4. Phillips (wk)
5. Conway
6. Neesham
7. Santner
8. Jamieson
9. Sodhi
10. Ferguson
11. Boult

Squad: Seifert, CDG, Ajaz Patel, Henry (maybe Milne if he shows some form in the BBL and stays on the field).

Harsh on Seifert tonight but where do you put him?

Not necessarily confident in some of those picks, and obviously depends on Munro actually wanting to play for us and not in the BBL, and Guptill rediscovering some sort of form.

Just watched a 60 mins highlight package on Foxtel. This was a good game, with Pakistan seemingly out for the count on several occasions, but somehow managing to counter-punch.

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:33 pm

Jb1981 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:06 am Two out of three failures for Guptill so far this season and one middling score.

What's new? I'm sure once the pressure is off he'll score an aggressive 50 or more in a dead rubber, earning more time in the side.

The very definition of a flat track bully.

The Blackcaps B Barrett?

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:33 pm

Jb1981 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:06 am Two out of three failures for Guptill so far this season and one middling score.

What's new? I'm sure once the pressure is off he'll score an aggressive 50 or more in a dead rubber, earning more time in the side.

The very definition of a flat track bully.

That's a pretty average look at guptills performance. Yes that's what he has done in red ball cricket but in white ball he has scored bug and tough runs against a variety of opponents and conditions.

One that sticks out is against South Africa in Hamilton, all other players struggled to double figures and he smashed a hundred and almost carried his bat in the run chase

Monkey Magic wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:44 am

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:33 pm

Jb1981 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:06 am Two out of three failures for Guptill so far this season and one middling score.

What's new? I'm sure once the pressure is off he'll score an aggressive 50 or more in a dead rubber, earning more time in the side.

The very definition of a flat track bully.

That's a pretty average look at guptills performance. Yes that's what he has done in red ball cricket but in white ball he has scored bug and tough runs against a variety of opponents and conditions.

One that sticks out is against South Africa in Hamilton, all other players struggled to double figures and he smashed a hundred and almost carried his bat in the run chase

But in international T20, as noted by mrbrownstown above:

Since 2017 in T20 cricket by year he's averaged 13.75, 41, 23.57, and 18.12.

That type of performance level will draw questions.

Jb1981 wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:54 am

Monkey Magic wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:44 am

Jimmy Smallsteps wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:33 pm

What's new? I'm sure once the pressure is off he'll score an aggressive 50 or more in a dead rubber, earning more time in the side.

The very definition of a flat track bully.

That's a pretty average look at guptills performance. Yes that's what he has done in red ball cricket but in white ball he has scored bug and tough runs against a variety of opponents and conditions.

One that sticks out is against South Africa in Hamilton, all other players struggled to double figures and he smashed a hundred and almost carried his bat in the run chase

But in international T20, as noted by mrbrownstown above:

Since 2017 in T20 cricket by year he's averaged 13.75, 41, 23.57, and 18.12.

That type of performance level will draw questions.

Fair enough, looking at the posts again I've misunderstood the flat track bully comment to encompass his entire career. Guessing the year of averaging 41 is when he hit 100 against oz at eden Park and then they chased us down with ease